Re: A-Comment/Quest re Safety during Chemo

[Guest guest]

Thank you Leni for your thoughtful and passionate

response. It seems that you have some experience in

this matter based on your bio. I think i wrote a

vague comment and should have been more specific.

In regards to chemo and supporting the liver. The

advice i received was from an ND who works at CTCA

specializing in integrative cancer treatment. Her

advice was to not treat the liver the day before the

chemo, the day of, and the day after chemo. On the

other days, support the detoxification process as much

as possible. If the patient's chemo schedule is too

frequent to allow a liver supportive treatment, then

to wait until it's over. Her opinion was to let it do

it's work and then get it out as quickly as possible.

I am supposing that chemo is most effective the 1st

and 2nd day and then efficacy drops off.

Specifically she cautioned against using milk thistle

and St. 's Wort. She did recommend supporting the

system with anti-oxidants (including turmeric),

glutamine for the GI tract, ginger works well for

nausea in chemo patients, a multivitamin with adequate

carotenoids and vit A, E, D, C. Using extremely high

dose vit C in cancer patients b/c they need it and use

it up (no loose stools. In addition, protein is

extremely important to cancer patients, so nutritional

counseling with emphasis on protein is important.

There are many ways to support a person dealing with

chemotherapy.

Her point was not to play on practitioner's fears, but

to allow the treatment to work in it's full efficacy

if that is the route that is choosen by the patient.

Presumably, if the chemo is allowed to work fully,

then potentially less chemo will be needed- fewer

treatments.

She cautioned practitioners from promoting the liver's

metabolism of the toxic chemicals too quickly. She

did not say to not support the patient at all. I am

sorry that my comment was so brief but i am glad that

it sparked a discussion. I hope that this email better

clarifies what i was trying to get across. If not

comment some more and i will do my best to respond. I

don't know how to respond about the UNDA numbers b/c i

am too new at them. I wonder if giving 14 would be

helpful in pushing the chemo's effect?

Lang,ND

VT- Women's health

--- <lenifelton@...> wrote:

> Dear Unda Group,

>

> I really look forward to hearing some discussion on

> the advice was

> given about not doing detox or liver support during

> chemo. A statement

> like the one made at her seminar seems so

> undermining and plays on people's

> worst fears of " doing something wrong " . Of course,

> interfering with

> someone's chosen method to break up a tumor is the

> last thing I would want

> to do, but I just have to think:

>

> The same people that would worn against this would

> scoff at the idea of a

> homeopathic being powerful enough to neutralize

> amanita (? is that the

> right mushroom that is deadly to most people --

> apparently if lipoic acid

> is used to save the liver the doses have to be quite

> large - although I

> don't know the details about how much).

>

> In relation to herbs or foods - I don't think they

> tell people to stop

> drinking beets for instance - which support the

> liver -- if people were not

> too sick to drink it. Is tumeric so powerful it

> could undermine

> chemo? Are Indian chemo patients told not to eat

> tumeric?

>

> Is the chemo effective in the liver or is it when

> going through the

> bloodstream and meeting cancer cells (unless liver

> is site of cancer)? and

> if the effectivity is in the liver bringing some

> vital energetic support

> seems like it would allow the liver some help in

> dealing with the dieing

> cells and metabolites and chemo intermediates --

> seems that it would be

> healthful and compassionate.

>

>

> In relation to the Unda #s. The unda #'s are so safe

> we can use them with

> pregnant women.

>

> With energetic therapies we are using miniscule

> drops with such dilute

> components, compared with the physical molecules and

> macro dose that would

> be included in a chemo infusion - even if it were a

> teasponn. I can't

> imagine these energetic formulas neutralizing the

> physical

> substance/molecules that make up the chemo.

>

> I thought that helping the liver during chemo takes

> the load off the system

> and allows people to go through without as much

> nausea and vomiting, thus

> allowing them to digest better. And helping the

> body to move the

> metabolites out of the liver which will have to

> occur anyway would let the

> vitality pick up quicker.

>

> My guess is that detoxing is compassionate and

> caring making the barbarism

> of the experience less tolerable. So many people

> who have gone through it

> feel that they " just can't do it again " - the

> experience being too toxic to

> their body, mind, and spirit.

>

> Maybe there are some things that are THAT POWERFUL

> that they could

> undermine the chemotoxins being used? If so, I

> wonder what, specifically,

> they are.

>

> Maybe someone else could offer us specifics instead

> of making blanket

> statements about not detoxing or supporting the

> liver like the person who

> taught her seminar.

>

> The advice seems to play on any practitioners or

> chemo patients worse fear

> rather than allowing complementary health care to go

> forward and open up

> and thus allow us to offer support to the client.

>

> Some practitioners seem to be fearless. I'm not one

> of them, in fact I

> probably err on the side of caution and wimpy doses

> -- and that is probably

> a bigger problem -- but this sweeping statement

> seems like it will put

> complementary and nutritional support back to the

> dark ages. It is easier

> for me to think about this type of statement from

> objectively now, so I'd

> love to hear more of the truth on this matter.

>

> Perhaps the person made the comment from a legal

> perspective and wanting to

> do everything to avoid malpractice? If that closes

> down our clear thinking

> that would be a disservice to people in need.

>

> I look forward to hearing the other side of the

> story -- and if there are

> any concerns I'd like to know what they really are.

>

> Thank you! Leni

[Guest guest]

thank you for your comments Leni and . i was rather taken aback by

what and others were taught at the cancer class. my first thought

was its a CTCA class, (i've not been to one) or taught by someone who

doesn't know about drainage. and now that i know that's what CTCA is

teaching, i am more hesitant about referring pts to them.

i believe that the drainage helps potentiate the chemo agents. when the

woman i menioned first started chemo, i didn't have her on any drainage

(as i was out of the ones she needed). i saw her the day of her first

chemo to give her the remedies and she said that she felt like dying which

was how horrible she felt. took 2-3 days for the drainage to work and for

her to feel better.

since then, she feels a little tired the day of the chemo but is still

able to function. hasn't had any of the side effects of chemo, appetite

is good, everything else is good. how can drainage block the

effectiveness of the chemo?

have a colleague here whose cancer pt is on chemo and on the regular

regiment of cancer supplements, no drainage. that pt feels terrible, no

energy, no appetite, hence can't take her supplements, nausea constantly.

drainage or not? i choose drainage.

comments from others? please?

Tan, ND, LAc

Honolulu, HI

(chronic illness, family practice)

[Guest guest]

et al

I couldn't possibly consider cancer - especially during chemo - without

drainage. To err on the side of caution is always wise when in doubt. I am

probably most agressive with cancer patients - if that is their choice -

because they potentially have the most to lose and face a most formidable

foe.

My experience with CTCA (I spent several days there 4 years ago) is that due

to the parameters within which they work, the approach is VERY cautious,

perhaps overly so - and that may have changed in the last four years - I

hope.

Teri Jaklin ND

Waterdown, ON

Chronic illness, multiple sclerosis, general practice

Re: A-Comment/Quest re Safety during Chemo

thank you for your comments Leni and . i was rather taken aback by

what and others were taught at the cancer class. my first thought

was its a CTCA class, (i've not been to one) or taught by someone who

doesn't know about drainage. and now that i know that's what CTCA is

teaching, i am more hesitant about referring pts to them.

i believe that the drainage helps potentiate the chemo agents. when the

woman i menioned first started chemo, i didn't have her on any drainage

(as i was out of the ones she needed). i saw her the day of her first

chemo to give her the remedies and she said that she felt like dying which

was how horrible she felt. took 2-3 days for the drainage to work and for

her to feel better.

since then, she feels a little tired the day of the chemo but is still

able to function. hasn't had any of the side effects of chemo, appetite

is good, everything else is good. how can drainage block the

effectiveness of the chemo?

have a colleague here whose cancer pt is on chemo and on the regular

regiment of cancer supplements, no drainage. that pt feels terrible, no

energy, no appetite, hence can't take her supplements, nausea constantly.

drainage or not? i choose drainage.

comments from others? please?

Tan, ND, LAc

Honolulu, HI

(chronic illness, family practice)

[Guest guest]

Dear Teri and and Leni,

I have been to several trainings by CTCA and we had Tim Birdsall at a forum

at our local cancer center. They ARE still very cautious and conservative

and I think they they just don't know about drainage. Maybe somebody with

more cancer experience would want to educate them.

I do want to follow up on 's point of how drainage could make

conventional treatment less effective. We just recently had a forum about

anti-oxidants during conventional treatment and there were several clinical

studies cited that showed reduced effectiveness of chemo if used with some

specific anti-oxidants. Of course they were individual anti-oxidants, not

used in combination, and taken out of any wholistic context, but

nevertheless. We, wholistic practitioners I mean, generally think of

anti-oxidants as protective and

reducing side-effects, so these studies are interesting.

How do we know that drainage remedies do not reduce chemo effectiveness

while reducing side-effects, especially if

they are facilitating toxin removal? If you are using 1, 20, 48, and 243

during chemo, couldn't #1 in particular increase liver metabolism and

therefore increase break down of the chemo before it had its effect? We are

using #2 first because

we know that #1 can cause aggravation, i.e. faster detox than elimination!

DR. Abel also recommends using Juniperus for liver drainage. AGain,

couldn't that enhance chemo break-down and reduce effectiveness?

Side-effects being less could also mean less effectiveness of chemo! I am

playing the devil's advocate here, but please do consider that I am new to

UNDA.

, how do you know that drainage remedies are potentiating chemotherapy?

I very appreciate Leni's other comments about making the best out of chemo

and would love to hear comments about htis topic.

le Duebendorfer, ND

Sandpoint, ID

Integrative cancer care and family health care

> et al

> I couldn't possibly consider cancer - especially during chemo - without

> drainage. To err on the side of caution is always wise when in doubt. I am

> probably most agressive with cancer patients - if that is their choice -

> because they potentially have the most to lose and face a most formidable

> foe.

>

> My experience with CTCA (I spent several days there 4 years ago) is that

due

> to the parameters within which they work, the approach is VERY cautious,

> perhaps overly so - and that may have changed in the last four years - I

> hope.

>

> Teri Jaklin ND

> Waterdown, ON

> Chronic illness, multiple sclerosis, general practice

>

> Re: A-Comment/Quest re Safety during Chemo

>

>

> thank you for your comments Leni and . i was rather taken aback by

> what and others were taught at the cancer class. my first thought

> was its a CTCA class, (i've not been to one) or taught by someone who

> doesn't know about drainage. and now that i know that's what CTCA is

> teaching, i am more hesitant about referring pts to them.

>

> i believe that the drainage helps potentiate the chemo agents. when the

> woman i menioned first started chemo, i didn't have her on any drainage

> (as i was out of the ones she needed). i saw her the day of her first

> chemo to give her the remedies and she said that she felt like dying which

> was how horrible she felt. took 2-3 days for the drainage to work and for

> her to feel better.

>

> since then, she feels a little tired the day of the chemo but is still

> able to function. hasn't had any of the side effects of chemo, appetite

> is good, everything else is good. how can drainage block the

> effectiveness of the chemo?

>

> have a colleague here whose cancer pt is on chemo and on the regular

> regiment of cancer supplements, no drainage. that pt feels terrible, no

> energy, no appetite, hence can't take her supplements, nausea constantly.

> drainage or not? i choose drainage.

>

> comments from others? please?

>

> Tan, ND, LAc

> Honolulu, HI

> (chronic illness, family practice)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Remember when you were a kid and you discovered something new, say a flower.

You did not know the name of the flower, the genus or species, yet you

knew the color, the smell and how it made you feel. Smelling the flower and

delight of a new sensation was therapeutic; it involved you growing and

discovering new territory your body had yet to experience.

This is what medicine is. As alternative health care practitioners, it is

our job to re-create the experience of healing for our patients. Healing,

just like growth, cannot happen in a test tube or in a scientific

experiment. As growing doctors, it is our job to take the time to learn our

medicine for ourselves. No person or study can ever teach us how to do our

art. They are our guides, but the patient sitting in front of you and the

small, usually ignored voice of your own intuition is your teacher.

I don't mean to sound preachy, but it is so important for each of us to

learn to rely on our on intuition and the words of our patients. There is

no right and wrong way of doing this medicine and no one in this group,

either DT or some well known cancer doctor has the correct answer.

Liz Spagat

Portland, Or

Women & Children's Health, Chronic Disease

>From: " le Duebendorfer " <gdueb@...>

>Reply-

> " unda " < >

>Subject: Re: A-Comment/Quest re Safety during Chemo

>Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:36:44 -0700

>

>Dear Teri and and Leni,

>

>I have been to several trainings by CTCA and we had Tim Birdsall at a forum

>at our local cancer center. They ARE still very cautious and conservative

>and I think they they just don't know about drainage. Maybe somebody with

>more cancer experience would want to educate them.

>

>I do want to follow up on 's point of how drainage could make

>conventional treatment less effective. We just recently had a forum about

>anti-oxidants during conventional treatment and there were several clinical

>studies cited that showed reduced effectiveness of chemo if used with some

>specific anti-oxidants. Of course they were individual anti-oxidants, not

>used in combination, and taken out of any wholistic context, but

>nevertheless. We, wholistic practitioners I mean, generally think of

>anti-oxidants as protective and

>reducing side-effects, so these studies are interesting.

>

> How do we know that drainage remedies do not reduce chemo effectiveness

>while reducing side-effects, especially if

>they are facilitating toxin removal? If you are using 1, 20, 48, and 243

>during chemo, couldn't #1 in particular increase liver metabolism and

>therefore increase break down of the chemo before it had its effect? We

>are

>using #2 first because

>we know that #1 can cause aggravation, i.e. faster detox than elimination!

>DR. Abel also recommends using Juniperus for liver drainage. AGain,

>couldn't that enhance chemo break-down and reduce effectiveness?

>

>Side-effects being less could also mean less effectiveness of chemo! I am

>playing the devil's advocate here, but please do consider that I am new to

>UNDA.

>

>, how do you know that drainage remedies are potentiating

>chemotherapy?

>

>I very appreciate Leni's other comments about making the best out of chemo

>and would love to hear comments about htis topic.

>

>

>le Duebendorfer, ND

>Sandpoint, ID

>Integrative cancer care and family health care

>

>

>

>

>

> > et al

> > I couldn't possibly consider cancer - especially during chemo - without

> > drainage. To err on the side of caution is always wise when in doubt. I

>am

> > probably most agressive with cancer patients - if that is their choice -

> > because they potentially have the most to lose and face a most

>formidable

> > foe.

> >

> > My experience with CTCA (I spent several days there 4 years ago) is that

>due

> > to the parameters within which they work, the approach is VERY cautious,

> > perhaps overly so - and that may have changed in the last four years - I

> > hope.

> >

> > Teri Jaklin ND

> > Waterdown, ON

> > Chronic illness, multiple sclerosis, general practice

> >

> > Re: A-Comment/Quest re Safety during Chemo

> >

> >

> > thank you for your comments Leni and . i was rather taken aback

>by

> > what and others were taught at the cancer class. my first thought

> > was its a CTCA class, (i've not been to one) or taught by someone who

> > doesn't know about drainage. and now that i know that's what CTCA is

> > teaching, i am more hesitant about referring pts to them.

> >

> > i believe that the drainage helps potentiate the chemo agents. when the

> > woman i menioned first started chemo, i didn't have her on any drainage

> > (as i was out of the ones she needed). i saw her the day of her first

> > chemo to give her the remedies and she said that she felt like dying

>which

> > was how horrible she felt. took 2-3 days for the drainage to work and

>for

> > her to feel better.

> >

> > since then, she feels a little tired the day of the chemo but is still

> > able to function. hasn't had any of the side effects of chemo, appetite

> > is good, everything else is good. how can drainage block the

> > effectiveness of the chemo?

> >

> > have a colleague here whose cancer pt is on chemo and on the regular

> > regiment of cancer supplements, no drainage. that pt feels terrible, no

> > energy, no appetite, hence can't take her supplements, nausea

>constantly.

> > drainage or not? i choose drainage.

> >

> > comments from others? please?

> >

> > Tan, ND, LAc

> > Honolulu, HI

> > (chronic illness, family practice)

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

gabrielle & liz

thanks for your comments. i want to clarify what i said.

i didn't say that drainage could make conventional treatment less effective.

in fact, i meant the opposite, that i believe that drainage can make the chemo

more effective while lessening the side effects.

how do i know? i know from my heart. i know that i am helping the person feel

more confortable and have a better quality of life while getting poisoned to

death. i do think that pts like to feel better too. yes, i do know that some

chemos are effective for certain types of cancers but mostly they kill the

pts. just about every cancer survivor i have spoken to who have had chemo say

that they would not undergo that ever again.

in the studies (which i have not read), how do they know that the chemo's

reduced effectiveness is not due to the length of time of use, rather than

being caused by certain antioxidants? tumors do get resistant to chemo as well

and that why, they often change to new ones. so in the case of cancer pts who

are not doing complementary therapies in conjunction, what do the MD's blame

the ineffectiveness of the chemo on?

ever notice how conventional medicine is so quick to point the finger at

natural therapies when their therapies fail (if a pt was doing both) but if the

pt gets better, it has to be the drugs' effectiveness or spontaneous remission

or wrong dx., never giving any credit to natural therapies.

i believe we need to cultivate more confidence in our medicine and that we are

doing the right thing, using our intent and intuition.

aloha

karen tan, nd, lac

honolulu, hi

(chronic illness, family practice)

ps, thanks for your comment, liz. well said

le Duebendorfer wrote:

> Dear Teri and and Leni,

>

> I have been to several trainings by CTCA and we had Tim Birdsall at a forum

> at our local cancer center. They ARE still very cautious and conservative

> and I think they they just don't know about drainage. Maybe somebody with

> more cancer experience would want to educate them.

>

> I do want to follow up on 's point of how drainage could make

> conventional treatment less effective. We just recently had a forum about

> anti-oxidants during conventional treatment and there were several clinical

> studies cited that showed reduced effectiveness of chemo if used with some

> specific anti-oxidants. Of course they were individual anti-oxidants, not

> used in combination, and taken out of any wholistic context, but

> nevertheless. We, wholistic practitioners I mean, generally think of

> anti-oxidants as protective and

> reducing side-effects, so these studies are interesting.

>

> How do we know that drainage remedies do not reduce chemo effectiveness

> while reducing side-effects, especially if

> they are facilitating toxin removal? If you are using 1, 20, 48, and 243

> during chemo, couldn't #1 in particular increase liver metabolism and

> therefore increase break down of the chemo before it had its effect? We are

> using #2 first because

> we know that #1 can cause aggravation, i.e. faster detox than elimination!

> DR. Abel also recommends using Juniperus for liver drainage. AGain,

> couldn't that enhance chemo break-down and reduce effectiveness?

>

> Side-effects being less could also mean less effectiveness of chemo! I am

> playing the devil's advocate here, but please do consider that I am new to

> UNDA.

>

> , how do you know that drainage remedies are potentiating chemotherapy?

>

> I very appreciate Leni's other comments about making the best out of chemo

> and would love to hear comments about htis topic.

>

> le Duebendorfer, ND

> Sandpoint, ID

> Integrative cancer care and family health care

>

> > et al

> > I couldn't possibly consider cancer - especially during chemo - without

> > drainage. To err on the side of caution is always wise when in doubt. I am

> > probably most agressive with cancer patients - if that is their choice -

> > because they potentially have the most to lose and face a most formidable

> > foe.

> >

> > My experience with CTCA (I spent several days there 4 years ago) is that

> due

> > to the parameters within which they work, the approach is VERY cautious,

> > perhaps overly so - and that may have changed in the last four years - I

> > hope.

> >

> > Teri Jaklin ND

> > Waterdown, ON

> > Chronic illness, multiple sclerosis, general practice

> >

> > Re: A-Comment/Quest re Safety during Chemo

> >

> >

> > thank you for your comments Leni and . i was rather taken aback by

> > what and others were taught at the cancer class. my first thought

> > was its a CTCA class, (i've not been to one) or taught by someone who

> > doesn't know about drainage. and now that i know that's what CTCA is

> > teaching, i am more hesitant about referring pts to them.

> >

> > i believe that the drainage helps potentiate the chemo agents. when the

> > woman i menioned first started chemo, i didn't have her on any drainage

> > (as i was out of the ones she needed). i saw her the day of her first

> > chemo to give her the remedies and she said that she felt like dying which

> > was how horrible she felt. took 2-3 days for the drainage to work and for

> > her to feel better.

> >

> > since then, she feels a little tired the day of the chemo but is still

> > able to function. hasn't had any of the side effects of chemo, appetite

> > is good, everything else is good. how can drainage block the

> > effectiveness of the chemo?

> >

> > have a colleague here whose cancer pt is on chemo and on the regular

> > regiment of cancer supplements, no drainage. that pt feels terrible, no

> > energy, no appetite, hence can't take her supplements, nausea constantly.

> > drainage or not? i choose drainage.

> >

> > comments from others? please?

> >

> > Tan, ND, LAc

> > Honolulu, HI

> > (chronic illness, family practice)

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

and Liz,

My philosophical orientation with regards to chemo and using intuition in

the healing process is very similar to yours and I share your frustration

with

the conventional oncology as well as general medical community's tendency to

bad mouth natural healing and apply different standards than to their work

.. However, my question was specifically directed to drainage remedies'

effect on the liver's ability to metabolize toxins, which could

theoretically increase chemo's elimination. Like I said I am new to

Unda remedies and I thought their main effect is elimination of toxins,

specifically from and through the liver. I repeat, I am playing the devil's

advocate. Wouldn't #1 and Juniper in particular enhance elimination of

chemo toxins or would the whole drainage protocol just speed up the

break-down and elimination of the " spent " chemo? Help me out here please.

I don't remember the specifics about the cited studies - I didn't bother to

write them down. However, I do seem to remember that they had controls

receiving the same chemo for the same lengthe of time without using the

particular anti-oxidant - that's how they attributed the reduced

effectiveness to the anti-oxidant use.

, you say your intuition tells you drainage remedies increase the

effectiveness of chemo and lessen the side-effects. I agree that the

quality of life during and possibly after chemo with drainage has got to be

better. But how can you say that it increases the effectiveness of the

chemo? That's quite a statement! Yes, using intuition for creating a

healing experience for our patients may ultimately be the most important

thing we can do for our patients, whether they get " cured " or not, but that

doesn't mean that we shouldn't rely on scientific information or reasoning

in offering choices to them.

By the way, I have had quite a few patients who would do chemo again if they

had to - unfortunately the reason for this might be that with naturopathic

care they didn't have such a bad time. What a conflict!!!! Is there

anybody out there who treats primarily or at least more cancer patients who

choose not to do conventional treatment?

le Duebendorfer, ND

Sandpoint, ID

Re: A-Comment/Quest re Safety during Chemo

> gabrielle & liz

>

> thanks for your comments. i want to clarify what i said.

>

> i didn't say that drainage could make conventional treatment less

effective.

> in fact, i meant the opposite, that i believe that drainage can make the

chemo

> more effective while lessening the side effects.

>

> how do i know? i know from my heart. i know that i am helping the person

feel

> more confortable and have a better quality of life while getting poisoned

to

> death. i do think that pts like to feel better too. yes, i do know that

some

> chemos are effective for certain types of cancers but mostly they kill the

> pts. just about every cancer survivor i have spoken to who have had chemo

say

> that they would not undergo that ever again.

>

> in the studies (which i have not read), how do they know that the chemo's

> reduced effectiveness is not due to the length of time of use, rather than

> being caused by certain antioxidants? tumors do get resistant to chemo as

well

> and that why, they often change to new ones. so in the case of cancer pts

who

> are not doing complementary therapies in conjunction, what do the MD's

blame

> the ineffectiveness of the chemo on?

>

> ever notice how conventional medicine is so quick to point the finger at

> natural therapies when their therapies fail (if a pt was doing both) but

if the

> pt gets better, it has to be the drugs' effectiveness or spontaneous

remission

> or wrong dx., never giving any credit to natural therapies.

>

> i believe we need to cultivate more confidence in our medicine and that we

are

> doing the right thing, using our intent and intuition.

>

> aloha

> karen tan, nd, lac

> honolulu, hi

> (chronic illness, family practice)

>

> ps, thanks for your comment, liz. well said

>

>