Re: Hypercoherence & autistic spectrum

[Guest guest]

Jane,

I was speaking of fast-wave coherences (often in the parietal areas, though in

others as well) above 40 in the TLC. This often represents, in my mind, the

processing neurons getting locked together to keep out uncontrolled inputs, and

it locks the client behind a wall vis-a-vis connection to the outside world.

pete

>

> From: Jane Gurin <doglover80590@...>

> Date: 2006/04/13 Thu PM 09:55:32 EDT

>

> Subject: Hypercoherence & autistic spectrum

>

>

>

> Hi Pete, Mark, and everyone else,

>

> I want to ask about Pete's comment, " That reduction of hypercoherence in

autistic spectrum is desirable, I

> absolutely agree. "

>

> I haven't seen this hypercoherence yet but am about to do an assessment on

someone who is dx with Asperger's Syndrome, so I am wondering . . .

>

> o What's the definition of hypercoherence (as contrasted with the plain

vanilla too-high coherence?

> o Do you usually see this in the lower frequencies, mid-frequences, or high

frequencies?

> o If hypercoherence is present, is it more of a concern at one site than

another?

>

> I realize these questions are somewhat hypothetical as I am not talking about

an assessment that's already done. But any information is appreciated.

>

> As always,

> Jane

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min

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>

[Guest guest]

Jane,

The hypercoherence doesn't always occur, but when it does it is often in the beta bands frontally. Other things to look out for are anything unusual in the right temporal/parietal region (often elevated beta, but not always ... some low functioning autistic kids have large slow wave amplitudes) or frontal midline (eg, elevated beta or alpha).

Bottom line ... there's no set pattern.

Mark Darling

Hypercoherence & autistic spectrum

Hi Pete, Mark, and everyone else,I want to ask about Pete's comment, "That reduction of hypercoherence in autistic spectrum is desirable, I absolutely agree."I haven't seen this hypercoherence yet but am about to do an assessment on someone who is dx with Asperger's Syndrome, so I am wondering . . . o What's the definition of hypercoherence (as contrasted with the plain vanilla too-high coherence?o Do you usually see this in the lower frequencies, mid-frequences, or high frequencies?o If hypercoherence is present, is it more of a concern at one site than another?I realize these questions are somewhat hypothetical as I am not talking about an assessment that's already done. But any information is appreciated.As always, Jane

Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Messenger with Voice.

[Guest guest]

Rob Coben is the guy who is doing the bipolar interhemispheric training for

autism. He has just submitted a paper for publication with the Journal of

Neurotherapy. All I really know is that he is mostly using frontal sites for

this work. I think F7-F8 has been successful for several of his clients.

This would be single channel F7-F8. I'm not sure if he is using a wideband

inhibit (squash) or smaller inhibits, but I do know that he is selecting

reward bands based on QEEG data.

He would almost certainly be including a beta/hi beta inhibit. I imagine

simply reducing beta amplitude would reduce beta coherence anyway, although

in this case you are reducing the amplitude differential between the two

cortical sites. It is obviously interesting work and I look forward to

reading the article when it is published. He reports that he is getting a

40% reduction in autistic symptoms in 20 neurofeedback sessions.

The beta hypercoherence frontally is often, though not always, seen in the

autistic spectrum.

Mark

Hypercoherence & autistic spectrum

>

>

>

>

> Hi Pete, Mark, and everyone else,I want to ask about Pete's comment,

" That reduction of hypercoherence in autistic spectrum is desirable, I

absolutely agree. " I haven't seen this hypercoherence yet but am about

to do an assessment on someone who is dx with Asperger's Syndrome, so

I am wondering . . . o What's the definition of hypercoherence (as

contrasted with the plain vanilla too-high coherence?o Do you usually

see this in the lower frequencies, mid-frequences, or high

frequencies?o If hypercoherence is present, is it more of a concern at

one site than another?I realize these questions are somewhat

hypothetical as I am not talking about an assessment that's already

done. But any information is appreciated.As always, Jane

>

>

>

>

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just 2¢/min with Messenger with Voice.

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>

> a.. Visit your group " " on the web.

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> b..

[Guest guest]

But it does happen. Attached is an interesting bit of phase synchrony

Dudley

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 00:56:17 -0400 (EDT) roshicorp@... writes:

One never wants to intentionally drag one part of brain 180 degrees

out of phase, from the other!

/ChuckD....

/http://roshi.com/

Re: Re: Hypercoherence & autistic spectrum

Hi Larry,

I must admit I'm still grappling with some of this myself. Two signals are said to have a zero phase angle when they are completely in phase with each other and a 180 degree phase angle when they are completely out of phase. So I imagine that "phase up" means moving towards 180 deg (ie, more out of phase with each other), but I'm not completely sure about that. Maybe Pete can add something here.

Mark

Re: Re: Hypercoherence & autistic spectrum

Hi Mark,Perhaps I have read this post to many times trying to understand what "phaseup" means. In a Synchrony design phase differance is set at "0". I assume that means both sides are in phase. Does "phase up" mean that you train to make the sides more "in phase" orless "in phase"? Thank you,LarryMark Darling <mdarling@...> wrote:

,

I'll paste in some info about this from Rob Coben that was on another list:

> >Interhemispheric, bipolar training is actually coherence down > training. It > >is actuallly phase up training between the two sites which leads > to > >coherence being trained down as phase and coherence have a > reciprocal > >relationship.

[Guest guest]

I think I did this a week or so ago, but Rob's post is a bit unclear (to me

too), so let me try again.

Here is a nice definition of Coherence:

" coherence is a constant phase difference in two or more Waves over time. Two

waves are said to be in phase if their crests and troughs meet at the same place

at the same time, and the waves are out of phase if the crests of one meet the

troughs of another. "

In other words, as Mark writes below and as I teach in Level 2 workshops,

coherence is INDEPENDENT of phase and of amplitude. Two waves can be coherent

and out of phase or coherent and in phase, and they can be coherent, even if one

is huge and the other is tiny. So coherence itself comes either when two sites

(between which we are measuring the coherence in a particular frequency) are

communicating well with each other, or--much more commonly--when both are

tracking signals from a third site, like a rhythm generator in the thalamus.

Some frequencies are expected to be coherent (usually slower frequencies) most

of the time; others are not expected to be coherent (e.g. beta frequencies)

unless the sites are performing a task jointly. Coherence simply speaks to the

relationship and/or communication beween the sites.

Phase adds a timing variable. Are they doing the same thing AT THE SAME TIME?

If the two signals are " in phase " --tops and bottoms are lining up between the

two waveforms--then they are sharing the same timing. And coherence IN PHASE is

called Synchrony.

Unfortunately, Rob's language, while probably technically accurate, is a bit

counter-intuitive. When he speaks of training phase up, my first assumption

(and obviously many others' as well) was that he meant training to improve the

phase relationship. But that obviously would NOT break up coherence as he

claims. So, if he means training to increase the phase angle--to move the

signals OUT of phase, that might be a different thing...

EXCEPT, as stated above, moving two signals out of phase does NOT mean they

can't still be coherent! It just means they won't be synchronous. With all due

respect to Rob, I believe he is confusing coherence and synchrony. Yes,

training up the phase angle (moving signals out of phase) will have a negative

effect on synchrony, but NOT necessarily on coherence. And, also with all due

respect, bipolar interhemispheric training may or may not affect phase

relationships. That's only ONE option for what happens when we ask neurons to

change the difference between them in some band. Especially if the inhibit is a

wideband inhibit, where you are saying " reduce the different in ALL

frequencies " , there are a hundred ways the brain could do that which don't

involve phase or coherence at all! And, as always, there is no real way to know

(in a bipolar montage, where you can't see the individual signals) what the

brain actually IS doing.

If it works, so much the better for Rob and his clients. I speak to folks all

the time who do bipolar interhemispheric training as their primary approach, and

it works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. If Rob has indeed found a

population for whom it always works, that's great news.

Hope this is not just throwing more confusion onto the fire.

Pete

>

> From: " Mark Darling " <mdarling@...>

> Date: 2006/04/25 Tue PM 10:07:48 EDT

> < >

> Subject: Re: Re: Hypercoherence & autistic spectrum

>

> Hi Larry,

>

> I must admit I'm still grappling with some of this myself. Two signals are

said to have a zero phase angle when they are completely in phase with each

other and a 180 degree phase angle when they are completely out of phase. So I

imagine that " phase up " means moving towards 180 deg (ie, more out of phase with

each other), but I'm not completely sure about that. Maybe Pete can add

something here.

>

> Mark

>

> Re: Re: Hypercoherence & autistic spectrum

>

>

> Hi Mark,

> Perhaps I have read this post to many times trying to understand what " phase

> up " means. In a Synchrony design phase differance is set at " 0 " . I assume

> that means both sides are in phase.

>

> Does " phase up " mean that you train to make the sides more " in phase " or

> less " in phase " ?

> Thank you,

> Larry

>

> Mark Darling <mdarling@...> wrote:

> ,

>

> I'll paste in some info about this from Rob Coben that was on another

list:

>

> > >Interhemispheric, bipolar training is actually coherence down

> > training. It

> > >is actuallly phase up training between the two sites which leads

> > to

> > >coherence being trained down as phase and coherence have a

> > reciprocal

> > >relationship.

> > >

> > >This is not just a theory. In our recent study of NF for 37

> > Autistics,

> > >such training reduced their excessive hypercoherence in 77% if

> > the cases.

> > >This was done over 20 sessions, twice per week, and led to a 40%

> > reduction

> > >in autistic symptoms.

[Guest guest]

Wow... This post is absolutely fabulous and deserves to be in a wiki

or somewhere to be publically available. I saved it to my hardrive to

refer to in the future. (at the very least -- it could be saved down

and placed in the files section of this group)

> > ,

> >

> > I'll paste in some info about this from Rob Coben that was on

another list:

> >

> > > >Interhemispheric, bipolar training is actually coherence down

> > > training. It

> > > >is actuallly phase up training between the two sites which

leads

> > > to

> > > >coherence being trained down as phase and coherence have a

> > > reciprocal

> > > >relationship.

> > > >

> > > >This is not just a theory. In our recent study of NF for 37

> > > Autistics,

> > > >such training reduced their excessive hypercoherence in 77% if

> > > the cases.

> > > >This was done over 20 sessions, twice per week, and led to

a 40%

> > > reduction

> > > >in autistic symptoms.

>

[Guest guest]

Hey I like that wiki idea... of important concepts in neurofeedback

theory _and_ practise. one more project to add to the ever-growing to-

do list...

T

>

> Wow... This post is absolutely fabulous and deserves to be in a wiki

> or somewhere to be publically available. I saved it to my hardrive

to

> refer to in the future. (at the very least -- it could be saved down

> and placed in the files section of this group)