Guest guest Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 Alistair: You can consider me in your camp in favor of evidence-based medicine. I find it a little disturbing that some people seem to prefer anecdotal evidence and unsubstantiated esoteric theories to legitimate peer-reviewed scientific research. Some people promote smooth-sounding arguments for rejecting conventional science, peer-review, and the scientific method. I usually find myself wondering whether to consider those people the victims of fraud, or the perpetrators of it. -gts > > > Hi Jim, > > > > Thanks for your mail. > > > > " The two BIG finds that have entirely changed my > > life are, using Meghydrin to stop migraine headaches, > and using MSM > > in quantity for joint health. I lived with joint pain > and migraines for > > fifty years and now have neither. " > > > > I am delighted that you are no longer sufferring from > these. > > > > " Even Dr. Flanagan, the inventor or > > MegaHydrin has never posted my discovery on his > website, so I doubt > > that you'll ever see a study on it. " > > > > Dr Flanagan seems to be a colourful character! Thank > you for > > mentioning him. I also had a look at Megahydrin and > I'm not quite sure > > what to make of it. For someone who " ... holds > advanced degrees in > > nanotechnology, chemistry, bio-sciences and > medicine " , he seems very > > shy of supporting his claims with references. He does > appear to have > > published 4 studies, all of which are in vitro. This > isn't really > > enough to support his claims that this offering works > in humans. (I > > could only find one study on Silica Hydride in humans. > It was > > ineffective at increasing endurance in cyclists.) I > also note that he > > seems quite keen on Multi-Level Marketing and I am > particularly eager > > to hear his explanation of 'Crystal Energy' on > his appearance on a > > recent radio show. > > Could I invite you to try comparing Megahydrin to the > assessment of > > resveratrol I recently posted on another thread? How > do you think they > > compare? Notice on one that every > > claim is supported with appropriate references and > evidence that you > > can check in PubMed. Notice that at the bottom of the > page there is an > > HONcode seal. Every page of this website has been > checked by an > > external non governmental organisation that validates > health > > information on the net. Which do you feel you can > trust? > > > > " I always error in the direction of empirical > fact rather than > > scholarly study. " > > > > Empirical facts are only empirical because they have > been proved by an > > experiment. Granted, not all studies are experiments, > but all > > experiments are studies. You appear to infer that your > discovery that > > Megahydrin stops your migraines is an empirical fact, > although please > > feel free to correct me if I have this wrong. As an > experiment it is a > > little underpowered with a study population of 1. I am > not quite > > convinced that you have managed to remove chance and > bias from your > > results yet. > > > > " What kind of " high quality " do you > want? One that works, or one that > > has been studied to death. " > > > > This is an interesting and fair point. I think one of > the best > > criticisms of evidence based medicine is that lack of > evidence and > > lack of benefit are not necessarily the same thing. > There has never > > been a randomised controlled trial proving that > parachutes decrease > > mortality in skydivers, but skydivers all seem to be > unanimous that > > parachutes have clear benefits without requiring > empirical proof and > > insist on wearing them. It is also worth noting that > there are very > > few volunteers for a control group and randomising the > control group > > is an unpopular suggestion. > > To conclude, something that provides benefits and also > has proof that > > it works is higher quality evidence than something > that appears to > > provide benefits but doesn't have proof. > > > > Yours in fun and awareness raising. > > > > Alistair > > > > http://aging- management. com/ <http://aging- > management. com/> - > > Optimising Health for Longevity > > > > Re: SCIENTIFIC TERRORISM > [pharmaceuticals] > > > > Two issues: > > > > " stick to high quality scientific journalism and > scientific studies. " > > > > One of the problems is that many natural cures that I > have discovered > > independently will quite likely never be accepted for > study by > > mainstream medicine. The two BIG finds that have > entirely changed my > > life are, using Meghydrin to stop migraine headaches, > and using MSM > > in quantity for joint health. I lived with joint pain > and migraines for > > fifty years and now have neither. As a result, I have > reported these > > finds here on numerous occasions. Even Dr. Flanagan, > the inventor or > > MegaHydrin has never posted my discovery on his > website, so I doubt > > that you'll ever see a study on it. I always error > in the direction of > > empirical fact rather than scholarly study. What kind > of " high quality " > > do you want? One that works, or one that has been > studied to death. > > > > snip: > > > > Secondly, it disparages the role of science and > evidence based medicine > > in delivering health and longevity. If we are seeking > health and > > longevity, for ourselves and others, we cannot afford > ignore the use of > > these methods and we need to promote them as good > principles to work by. > > It we listen to this article, we will be fighting > aging blindfolded and > > with both hands tied behind our backs. > > > > Like Gordon, my personal preference would be to see > this forum stick to > > high quality scientific journalism and scientific > studies. I am well > > aware that there are many others on this forum whose > opinions should > > also be taken into account and I would be happy to > hear them. > > > > " There will also have to be changes to the way > doctors are paid. " > > > > As I understand it, in ancient China, doctors were > given a maintenance > > payment each month to keep a person well. If they got > sick, they > > stopped paying. This sounds like the perfect model to > me. > > > > snip, snip: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There will also have to be changes to the way > doctors are paid. At > > > present, this usually operates on a > " fee-for-service " basis, under > > > which doctors are paid for every procedure they > administer, whether or > > > not it is > > > appropriate. The surgeon who implanted the > defibrillator deactivated by > > > Redberg's team, for instance, would have been > paid a fee of around > > > $1600 by Medicare, the federal scheme that covers > healthcare for the > > > elderly. Reimbursement by insurance companies > follows a similar pattern. > > > With such perverse incentives to deliver more > care, regardless of its > > > benefits, it is little wonder that costs are > spiralling out of control. > > > " There is excessive use of just about > everything, " says Helen Darling, > > > president of the National Business Group on > Health in Washington DC, > > > which represents many of America's leading > companies. " It just gets > > > worse and worse. " > > > > > > Visit Your Group > > > <http://groups. / group/Longevity; > _ylc=X3oDMTJlZ29 > > wb3Z0BF9TAzk3MzU 5NzE0BGdycElkAzE zODc4MDUEZ3Jwc3B > JZAMxNzA1MDYwODE > > 0BHNlYwN2dGwEc2x rA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWU DMTIyMjA4NDk4OQ- > -> > > > > > > Health > > > > > > Early Detection > > > <http://us.ard. / SIG=13r2honh8/ > M=493064. 12016303. > > 12582636. 9706571/D= grphealth/ S=1705060814: > NC/Y=/ > > EXP=1222092220/ L=/B=Btz0H0LaX. o-/J=12220850207 > 06172/A=5191946/ > > R=0/SIG=12u9heqp d/*http:/ /health.. > com/breastcancer -symptoms/ > > breast-cancer- symptoms/ healthwise- -tv3621.html> > > > > > > Know the symptoms > > > > > > of breast cancer. > > > > > > Meditation and > > > > > > Lovingkindness > > > <http://us.ard. / SIG=13r8cg30v/ > M=493064. 12016231. > > 12582634. 9706571/D= grphealth/ S=1705060814: > NC/Y=/ > > EXP=1222092220/ L=/B=B9z0H0LaX. o-/J=12220850207 > 06172/A=5191951/ > > R=0/SIG=11iiaads o/*http:/ /new.groups. / > giftoflovingkind ness> > > > > > > A Group > > > > > > to share and learn. > > > > > > Biz Resources > > > > > > Y! Small Business > > > <http://us.ard. / SIG=13r539hub/ > M=493064. 12016255. > > 12445662. 8674578/D= grphealth/ S=1705060814: > NC/Y=/ > > EXP=1222092220/ L=/B=CNz0H0LaX. o-/J=12220850207 > 06172/A=4025321/ > > R=0/SIG=12a352np d/*http:/ /us.rd.. > com/evt=44092/ > > *http://smallbus iness.. com/r-index> > > > > > > Articles, tools, > > > > > > forms, and more. > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Hi Gordon, Thanks for your mail and for stating your position, it is very nice to make your acquaintance. :-) Like you, I find myself concerned that people are becoming suspicious of a science and disappointed and worried that part of the reason for this is a perceived failure in the delivery of healthcare. This move away from a rational view of the world has left some people poorly equipped to judge whether what they read is true and consequently some people sometimes seem very accepting of ideas and information that have little or no supporting evidence and may be a long way from the truth. Some people seem highly skeptical of science, yet completely devoid of any skepticism whatsoever for any information that opposes science or information that offers an 'alternative' to science. It is great that people question science, but it seems perverse that they not question any opposing or alternative views too. I feel concerned that this leaves them in a position where they are, at best, perpetuating and spreading falsehoods and at worst, that they are left open to abuse by the unscrupulous and misguided. While it is probably not what you set the group up for, it has been very interesting here lately with the lively debates between the pro and anti science and medicine camps working through their positions and learning from and about eachother and I feel the group may be serving a valuable purpose. I am also delighted that it is all occurring with a minimum of flaming and poor behaviour as well. Best Regards to all. Alistair http://aging-management.com/ - Optimising Health for Longevity Re: SCIENTIFIC TERRORISM > [pharmaceuticals] > > > > Two issues: > > > > " stick to high quality scientific journalism and > scientific studies. " > > > > One of the problems is that many natural cures that I > have discovered > > independently will quite likely never be accepted for > study by > > mainstream medicine. The two BIG finds that have > entirely changed my > > life are, using Meghydrin to stop migraine headaches, > and using MSM > > in quantity for joint health. I lived with joint pain > and migraines for > > fifty years and now have neither. As a result, I have > reported these > > finds here on numerous occasions. Even Dr. Flanagan, > the inventor or > > MegaHydrin has never posted my discovery on his > website, so I doubt > > that you'll ever see a study on it. I always error > in the direction of > > empirical fact rather than scholarly study. What kind > of " high quality " > > do you want? One that works, or one that has been > studied to death. > > > > snip: > > > > Secondly, it disparages the role of science and > evidence based medicine > > in delivering health and longevity. If we are seeking > health and > > longevity, for ourselves and others, we cannot afford > ignore the use of > > these methods and we need to promote them as good > principles to work by. > > It we listen to this article, we will be fighting > aging blindfolded and > > with both hands tied behind our backs. > > > > Like Gordon, my personal preference would be to see > this forum stick to > > high quality scientific journalism and scientific > studies. I am well > > aware that there are many others on this forum whose > opinions should > > also be taken into account and I would be happy to > hear them. > > > > " There will also have to be changes to the way > doctors are paid. " > > > > As I understand it, in ancient China, doctors were > given a maintenance > > payment each month to keep a person well. If they got > sick, they > > stopped paying. This sounds like the perfect model to > me. > > > > snip, snip: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There will also have to be changes to the way > doctors are paid. At > > > present, this usually operates on a > " fee-for-service " basis, under > > > which doctors are paid for every procedure they > administer, whether or > > > not it is > > > appropriate. The surgeon who implanted the > defibrillator deactivated by > > > Redberg's team, for instance, would have been > paid a fee of around > > > $1600 by Medicare, the federal scheme that covers > healthcare for the > > > elderly. Reimbursement by insurance companies > follows a similar pattern. > > > With such perverse incentives to deliver more > care, regardless of its > > > benefits, it is little wonder that costs are > spiralling out of control. > > > " There is excessive use of just about > everything, " says Helen Darling, > > > president of the National Business Group on > Health in Washington DC, > > > which represents many of America's leading > companies. " It just gets > > > worse and worse. " > > > > > > Visit Your Group > > > <http://groups. / group/Longevity; > _ylc=X3oDMTJlZ29 > > wb3Z0BF9TAzk3MzU 5NzE0BGdycElkAzE zODc4MDUEZ3Jwc3B > JZAMxNzA1MDYwODE > > 0BHNlYwN2dGwEc2x rA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWU DMTIyMjA4NDk4OQ- > -> > > > > > > Health > > > > > > Early Detection > > > <http://us.ard. / SIG=13r2honh8/ > M=493064. 12016303. > > 12582636. 9706571/D= grphealth/ S=1705060814: > NC/Y=/ > > EXP=1222092220/ L=/B=Btz0H0LaX. o-/J=12220850207 > 06172/A=5191946/ > > R=0/SIG=12u9heqp d/*http:/ /health.. > com/breastcancer -symptoms/ > > breast-cancer- symptoms/ healthwise- -tv3621.html> > > > > > > Know the symptoms > > > > > > of breast cancer. > > > > > > Meditation and > > > > > > Lovingkindness > > > <http://us.ard. / SIG=13r8cg30v/ > M=493064. 12016231. > > 12582634. 9706571/D= grphealth/ S=1705060814: > NC/Y=/ > > EXP=1222092220/ L=/B=B9z0H0LaX. o-/J=12220850207 > 06172/A=5191951/ > > R=0/SIG=11iiaads o/*http:/ /new.groups. / > giftoflovingkind ness> > > > > > > A Group > > > > > > to share and learn. > > > > > > Biz Resources > > > > > > Y! Small Business > > > <http://us.ard. / SIG=13r539hub/ > M=493064. 12016255. > > 12445662. 8674578/D= grphealth/ S=1705060814: > NC/Y=/ > > EXP=1222092220/ L=/B=CNz0H0LaX. o-/J=12220850207 > 06172/A=4025321/ > > R=0/SIG=12a352np d/*http:/ /us.rd.. > com/evt=44092/ > > *http://smallbus iness.. com/r-index> > > > > > > Articles, tools, > > > > > > forms, and more. > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Alistair: So what is the scientific basis EMB for, hypnosis, homeopathy and acupuncture? We know they work but how? alistair tweed wrote: >Hi Gordon, > >Like you, I find myself concerned that people are becoming suspicious of a science and disappointed and worried that part of the reason for this is a perceived failure in the delivery of healthcare. > >This move away from a rational view of the world has left some people poorly equipped to judge whether what they read is true and consequently some people sometimes seem very accepting of ideas and information that have little or no supporting evidence and may be a long way from the truth. Some people seem highly skeptical of science, yet completely devoid of any skepticism whatsoever for any information that opposes science or information that offers an 'alternative' to science. It is great that people question science, but it seems perverse that they not question any opposing or alternative views too. I feel concerned that this leaves them in a position where they are, at best, >perpetuating and spreading falsehoods and at worst, that they are left open to >abuse by the unscrupulous and misguided. > >Best Regards to all. > >Alistair > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Additionally, some things don't lend themselves well to double blind placebo controlled studies - the subjects and doctors cannot be blinded. Steve B. Monier- wrote: > > > Alistair: > So what is the scientific basis EMB for, hypnosis, homeopathy and > acupuncture? We know they work but how? > > > > alistair tweed wrote: > > >Hi Gordon, > > > >Like you, I find myself concerned that people are becoming suspicious > of a science and disappointed and worried that part of the reason for > this is a perceived failure in the delivery of healthcare. > > > >This move away from a rational view of the world has left some people > poorly equipped to judge whether what they read is true and consequently > some people sometimes seem very accepting of ideas and information that > have little or no supporting evidence and may be a long way from the > truth. Some people seem highly skeptical of science, yet completely > devoid of any skepticism whatsoever for any information that opposes > science or information that offers an 'alternative' to science. It is > great that people question science, but it seems perverse that they not > question any opposing or alternative views too. I feel concerned that > this leaves them in a position where they are, at best, > >perpetuating and spreading falsehoods and at worst, that they are left > open to > >abuse by the unscrupulous and misguided. > > > >Best Regards to all. > > > >Alistair > > > > -- Steve - dudescholar4@... Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Steve: So we should talk about limited EBM, modified by Empirical testing. So EBM isn't an absolute it has it's most definite limitations. P.S. In the case of both Homeopathy and Acupuncture, they have been shown to work on animals there is no need for placebo studies Steve wrote: >Additionally, some things don't lend themselves well to double blind >placebo controlled studies - the subjects and doctors cannot be blinded. > >Steve > > B. Monier- wrote: > > >>Alistair: >>So what is the scientific basis EMB for, hypnosis, homeopathy and >>acupuncture? We know they work but how? >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 > P.S. In the case of both Homeopathy and Acupuncture, they > have been shown to work on animals Do you mean you've seen published peer-reviewed results of carefully controlled experiments conducted by credible scientists that support those hypotheses? If so then I would like to read more on this subject. Do you have a link? Thx. -gts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Gordon: Go check with the Veterinarians at least there is Empirical evidence. Hypnosis and Acupuncture have both been used in human surgery in place of Western Anesthesia. I myself trained a person for root canal using self-hypnosis. I call that Emperical testing. You mean you don't accept Hypnosis, Homeopathy or Acupuncture because you only accept double blind doctor studies. Then those doctors and scientists who belief that are triple blind. Gordon Swobe wrote: >>P.S. In the case of both Homeopathy and Acupuncture, they >>have been shown to work on animals >> >> > >Do you mean you've seen published peer-reviewed results of carefully controlled experiments conducted by credible scientists that support those hypotheses? If so then I would like to read more on this subject. Do you have a link? Thx. > >-gts > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 : I don't question the value of hypnosis, but I do question whether homeopathy or acupuncture really works in animals. What do you mean when you say, " Go check with the Veterinarians " ? If I interviewed a large number of vets, I would expect to find that only a small minority believe homeopathy works in animals. If those non-mainstream vets cannot produce credible evidence to support their claims then I would feel inclined to disbelieve the claim. > You mean you don't accept Hypnosis, Homeopathy or Acupuncture because > you only accept double blind doctor studies. No, I do not mean what you say I mean. I can devise a well-controlled experiment on animals that would test the homeopathy hypothesis without need for double-blind anything: Group A of cats with disease Y receive homeopathic remedy Z, while a control group B of cats with disease Y does not. After the treatment, the researcher counts the number of cats in each group that show symptoms of Y and then performs a statistical analysis to determine if the difference between the groups is statistically significant. If the difference is significant and in favor of the homeopathic hypothesis, (meaning roughly that the probability is less than 5% that the difference was a result of randomness), then the researcher has evidence to support the hypothesis that homeopathic remedy Z cures Y in cats. His next step then is to publish his exciting result in a reputable veterinary journal. Other veterinary researchers will attempt to duplicate his results. If other researchers can duplicate his results then veterinarians in general will have good reason to believe that homeopathic remedy Z cures Y in cats. That is how EBM works, and that is the sort of research I'd like to see on this subject. -gts > > >>P.S. In the case of both Homeopathy and > Acupuncture, they > >>have been shown to work on animals > >> > >> > > > >Do you mean you've seen published peer-reviewed > results of carefully controlled experiments conducted by > credible scientists that support those hypotheses? If so > then I would like to read more on this subject. Do you have > a link? Thx. > > > >-gts > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Re-reading my post... I could improve on my proposed experiment by having a second researcher do the post-treatment counting of sick cats. This second researcher would have no knowledge of which cats received the homeopathic treatment, preventing any bias introduced by the placebo effect on the researcher's perceptions of the cats' symptoms. In other words, some blinding makes sense even for experiments like these with animals. Has anyone here actually seen any published research like this in any respectable veterinary journal that supports homeopathy in animals? -gts > > > > >>P.S. In the case of both Homeopathy and > > Acupuncture, they > > >>have been shown to work on animals > > >> > > >> > > > > > >Do you mean you've seen published > peer-reviewed > > results of carefully controlled experiments conducted > by > > credible scientists that support those hypotheses? If > so > > then I would like to read more on this subject. Do you > have > > a link? Thx. > > > > > >-gts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Hi , Thanks for your mail and nice to meet you. :-) " So what is the scientific basis EMB for, hypnosis, homeopathy and acupuncture? " That is a large task to take on and I regret I don't have time to give you an in depth answer. " We know they work but how? " That is an assumption, and we should be skeptical before saying that with certainty. Let's take one, say... homeopathy. We should probably clarify what we mean by the term. Wikipedia is by no means the most accurate of sources, but it is a good place to start. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page) If we look up homeopathy we get (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy) which is fertile grounds for getting up to speed on the subject. Almost immediately, in the introductory section, there was enough to get my skeptical spidey senses tingling. Further on, I was particularly interested by the Research on Medical Effectiveness section (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy#Research_on_medical_effectiveness) We could continue to research the subject, but having read this, do we want to? Or would we like to spend the time on something else? I'm not saying that hypnosis and acupuncture fall into the same category, but I'm sure a search on wikipedia will push you on to do some more research. Or not. Over to you. Best Regards, Alistair  http://aging-management.com/ - Optimising Health for Longevity Re: The future of EBM? Alistair: So what is the scientific basis EMB for, hypnosis, homeopathy and acupuncture? We know they work but how? alistair tweed wrote: >Hi Gordon, > >Like you, I find myself concerned that people are becoming suspicious of a science and disappointed and worried that part of the reason for this is a perceived failure in the delivery of healthcare. > >This move away from a rational view of the world has left some people poorly equipped to judge whether what they read is true and consequently some people sometimes seem very accepting of ideas and information that have little or no supporting evidence and may be a long way from the truth. Some people seem highly skeptical of science, yet completely devoid of any skepticism whatsoever for any information that opposes science or information that offers an 'alternative' to science. It is great that people question science, but it seems perverse that they not question any opposing or alternative views too. I feel concerned that this leaves them in a position where they are, at best, >perpetuating and spreading falsehoods and at worst, that they are left open to >abuse by the unscrupulous and misguided. > >Best Regards to all. > >Alistair > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg19125583.200-vets-demand-official-r\ ejection-of-homeopathy.html Vets demand official rejection of homeopathy 01 July 2006 IF YOUR pet was ill, would you plump for a homeopathic remedy? Many vets are aghast that unproven homeopathic treatments are routinely prescribed to animals (New Scientist, 10 December 2005, p 8). The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons in London, however, seems unsure of its stance. New Scientist has learned that the RCVS decided back in February to quietly remove a list of vets that offer homeopathic treatments from its official published register of licensed veterinary practitioners. Vets who believe it is against animals' best interests to undergo unproven treatments say pets should only be given orthodox medicines, and that the RCVS's list withdrawal is not enough. They add that details of homeopathic vets remain available on its website. Forty vets have written to the college demanding it reject homeopathy. The RCVS denies that its website supports homeopathic practice. " It's not an endorsement, " says a spokesman. " The college retains the view that if people want homeopathic treatment for their animals it's better done by a registered veterinary surgeon. "  http://aging-management.com/ - Optimising Health for Longevity Re: The future of EBM? Re-reading my post... I could improve on my proposed experiment by having a second researcher do the post-treatment counting of sick cats. This second researcher would have no knowledge of which cats received the homeopathic treatment, preventing any bias introduced by the placebo effect on the researcher's perceptions of the cats' symptoms. In other words, some blinding makes sense even for experiments like these with animals. Has anyone here actually seen any published research like this in any respectable veterinary journal that supports homeopathy in animals? -gts > > > > >>P.S. In the case of both Homeopathy and > > Acupuncture, they > > >>have been shown to work on animals > > >> > > >> > > > > > >Do you mean you've seen published > peer-reviewed > > results of carefully controlled experiments conducted > by > > credible scientists that support those hypotheses? If > so > > then I would like to read more on this subject. Do you > have > > a link? Thx. > > > > > >-gts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 LOL Steve : > <>Additionally, some things don't lend themselves well to double blind > placebo controlled studies - the subjects and doctors cannot be blinded. > > Steve > > B. Monier- wrote: > > > > > > Alistair: > > So what is the scientific basis EMB for, hypnosis, homeopathy and > > acupuncture? We know they work but how? > > > > > > > > alistair tweed wrote: > > > > >Hi Gordon, > > > > > >Like you, I find myself concerned that people are becoming suspicious > > of a science and disappointed and worried that part of the reason for > > this is a perceived failure in the delivery of healthcare. > > > > > >This move away from a rational view of the world has left some people > > poorly equipped to judge whether what they read is true and > consequently > > some people sometimes seem very accepting of ideas and information that > > have little or no supporting evidence and may be a long way from the > > truth. Some people seem highly skeptical of science, yet completely > > devoid of any skepticism whatsoever for any information that opposes > > science or information that offers an 'alternative' to science. It is > > great that people question science, but it seems perverse that they not > > question any opposing or alternative views too. I feel concerned that > > this leaves them in a position where they are, at best, > > >perpetuating and spreading falsehoods and at worst, that they are left > > open to > > >abuse by the unscrupulous and misguided. > > > > > >Best Regards to all. > > > > > >Alistair > > > > > > > > -- > > Steve - dudescholar4@... <mailto:dudescholar4%40basicmail.net> > > Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at > http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html > <http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html> > > " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march > to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Gordon: Please go do your studies on homeopathy and acupuncture which has been used successfully world wide. Please don't bother with me, do whatever you must. I believe in whatever therapy works...use it! Gordon Swobe wrote: >: > >I don't question the value of hypnosis, but I do question whether homeopathy or acupuncture really works in animals. > >What do you mean when you say, " Go check with the Veterinarians " ? If I interviewed a large number of vets, I would expect to find that only a small minority believe homeopathy works in animals. > >If those non-mainstream vets cannot produce credible evidence to support their claims then I would feel inclined to disbelieve the claim. > > > >>You mean you don't accept Hypnosis, Homeopathy or Acupuncture because >>you only accept double blind doctor studies. >> >> > >No, I do not mean what you say I mean. > >I can devise a well-controlled experiment on animals that would test the homeopathy hypothesis without need for double-blind anything: > >Group A of cats with disease Y receive homeopathic remedy Z, while a control group B of cats with disease Y does not. After the treatment, the researcher counts the number of cats in each group that show symptoms of Y and then performs a statistical analysis to determine if the difference between the groups is statistically significant. If the difference is significant and in favor of the homeopathic hypothesis, (meaning roughly that the probability is less than 5% that the difference was a result of randomness), then the researcher has evidence to support the hypothesis that homeopathic remedy Z cures Y in cats. > >His next step then is to publish his exciting result in a reputable veterinary journal. Other veterinary researchers will attempt to duplicate his results. If other researchers can duplicate his results then veterinarians in general will have good reason to believe that homeopathic remedy Z cures Y in cats. > >That is how EBM works, and that is the sort of research I'd like to see on this subject. > >-gts > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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