Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Thank you KC. I feel some of this may be my fault. I posted on the IEQ board about how dare they diss people with mold problems when it takes away our whole lives. Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 also, by the way, not ONE person adressed my post on that site except someone from here who was glad I did. Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Stacey, I think most people who have been attracted to group were having trouble due to mold so thus the emphasis on mold, and also group owner. However many people with mold problems (including myself who also had lead paint dust in house and in my blood, and dust mite allergy) are interested in rebuilding or 'redoing' their existing homes. If you could share info you gave to poster, perhaps moderator would put this info in our Files so we can all access it. > > I am a bit perplexed why the name of this group is " " > and the majority of what is discussed here is mold... > > Bacteria, VOC's, pesticides, asbestos, lead paint, radon, dust > mites, and a plethora of other things all contribute to poor indoor > air/environmental quality as well you know. It all goes hand in > hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 I know I am many others post information all the time to other people. I write to many of the writers of articles, government officials, radio stations , or however I can. I always post info about the chemicals that are dangerous in our products. I don't know anything about building a safe home so I didn't answer that one. I think you are critical to the group for some reason. Many of us back channel people also. I know I see Carl helping people all of the time. We all have our talents. Sorry I haven't been able to post more lately but I am moving again and it is very emotional since I have been doing this for about nine years , " barb1283 " <barb1283@...> wrote: > > Stacey, > I think most people who have been attracted to group were having > trouble due to mold so thus the emphasis on mold, and also group > owner. However many people with mold problems (including myself who > also had lead paint dust in house and in my blood, and dust mite > allergy) are interested in rebuilding or 'redoing' their existing > homes. If you could share info you gave to poster, perhaps > moderator would put this info in our Files so we can all access it. > > > > > > I am a bit perplexed why the name of this group is " " > > and the majority of what is discussed here is mold... > > > > Bacteria, VOC's, pesticides, asbestos, lead paint, radon, dust > > mites, and a plethora of other things all contribute to poor > indoor > > air/environmental quality as well you know. It all goes hand in > > hand. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Stacey, This is very pleasant and surprising that you are addressing this board and myself, HERE on the board, directly to us and not on another board to where an associate had to inform me. I think that was your last complaint. And I'll be sure not to take anything out of text, which that statement is beyond me with what you were referring to, since I copied and pasted your actual post. But enough on that, I'll try to answer you questions as best I can. This board was started in 1998, by the Listowner, Barbara H. because she had been exposed to mold in her place of employment, at courthouse in Tallahassee. At that time there were no " mold " support groups and the term " sicikbuildings " was a term most people were becoming familiar with. She started this because this is what effected her life personally, along with her family. It wasn't dust mites, it wasn't radon, it wasn't asbestos. It was MOLD. Not everyone is familiar with poor indoor air quality and how it can affect your life along with your health. If we were, NONE of us would need to be here. Educating ourselves and trying to stay up to date with new procedures of prevention, treatment, diagnosis, etc. Isn't this why you attend supposedly all these conferences, or is there another reason? As far as the other reasons of sickbuidings, we had and still do have several qualified IAQuality professionals on this board who readily address these questions either as an open statement to the board or one on one via phone or email. We may not have all the answers to every scenerio, but then again I don't know anyone who does, do you? I appreciate you emailing the new member with this fabulous help or information, but don't you think it may have benefited everybody by posting it on the board? Yes, I do have some websites concerning " green building " , but since I have not personally done indepth research on many of these products and materials, it's the last thing I would want to do is mislead somebody and cause more harm. So I try to leave that up to someone who is well educated in that field. This field of safe products is so unpredictable of what really is or is not safe or has a lifetime warranty, because it has not been fully researched by the majority. Some new products that have come out on the market in the recent past, that claimed to have great efficiency if used correctly are now being pulled off the market.??? So you see nothing is 100%. I do have to correct you on your statement of not answering to this person, several have on the board did address this person and who knows how many may have answered by email, like you yourself have claimed to do. On an open board that may look like a no answer. If we are lacking in some education like you claim in a round about way, enlighten us, especially with all the vast conferences you have attended and the knowledge you were suppose to gather either during the conference or the " open " affairs after them. Perhaps the partying after, dulled your senses. Since you do mention quite frequently on other boards the " fun " that goes on. As far as getting wrapped up in our own lives, I would have to say this is normal, because this is how it has destroyed some here personally. But many are willing to share their knowledge, experiences, various treatments to all who will listen. Many here are in need of support of others who understand exactly what they are going through, unlike many on the " outside " who will scouff at the mulitude of symptoms, fear, confusion, financial loss, etc. Also, the only thing many have to offer now, since they themselves have lost everything, is to lend an ear when needed. On occasion everyone is entiled to have a " pity party " if it makes them feel better to get through to the next day. Maybe if we had more occasions such as this we would not have lost some board members with the ultimate final end. The whole idea Stacey, of posting all these news articles is to inform and educate the public, bottomline. So people see it is not just happening in their own little world or home town, it's happening world wide. It is very easy to come to a support group and criticize what we are doing and telling us to do this, this and this, to me this is a slap in the face when even the professional boards can't agree on what to do, how to test or remediate or even recognize the illnesses that may be a result of. That's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black wouldn't you say. You mentioned that you give advise to people when you are on the job testing, but then you walk away and your job is over with. Guess what, we are the ones picking up the pieces of where you left off and continue to address their concerns. This is all a part of the solution. Is it an end all, be all, NO. But it's a damn good start. I would appreciate it and I know many others agree, (my phone is now ringing off the hook because of your post,) by telling us how to do our job, when we wouldn't dare tell you how to do yours. Both are necessary when dealing with " " . You deal mostly with the buildings, we deal with the people and their lives. Focusing on " green building " is not going to cure us, that is only a small piece of the puzzle in our condition and it's not going to help us regain our health. We need to recover first and do what we can inbetween. Very few have recovered, fully, to a point where they can continue adding to the economy, instead of being a liability. I wish we all had a choice, can you guess what that might be? I'm very pleased Stacey that you were able to recover to this point, but there are many who have not been so lucky. Most would like to have a " green " house, but right now they can barely put food on the table, get to the doctors or obtain their medication. It's a nasty choice. No, mold is not a small part of it, it's a huge part of it, more than what you are even willing to recognize. Dust mites and other mild allergens do not cause these symptoms and most are permanent. Along with continuing to affect many organs. Perhaps next time I'm talking to a parent who just buried their child because of mycotoxins I'll give them your phone number and you can tell them that they should have concentrated on the whole picture and thought about building a safe home. Next time you address the group, when you use the terms you might as well use my name Carstens, because that is who I am and the two are intertwined. If you are running a business, you normally put your full contact information so there is no confusion and those that are in need of help can contact you directly. So I thought I would help make it easier for them to help obtain your services. Stacey Champion Owner/Consultant Champion Indoor Environmental Services PO Box 3332 Cottonwood, AZ 86326 Tel. 928-649-1847 Fax 928-634-1097 sc@... It's funny Stacey that the 3 times that you have addressed and it's members, twice here, once on another board, was just to criticize what we are doing, perhaps on your next post you would like to offer " real " constructive assistance on indoor air quality. KC > > I am a bit perplexed why the name of this group is " " > and the majority of what is discussed here is mold... > > Bacteria, VOC's, pesticides, asbestos, lead paint, radon, dust > mites, and a plethora of other things all contribute to poor indoor > air/environmental quality as well you know. It all goes hand in > hand. > > There was a woman who posted saying that she was new to the group > and wanted to build a healthy house due to her families allergy > problems. One person posted a reply with the name of a magazine. > Granted it's a good magazine (I have a subscription,) but my point I > guess, is that there was an opportunity to HELP a person from the > beginning, who doesn't live in a " sick " house, who was looking to > this group for great resources, etc. on how she could keep her > family from getting sick. Nobody helped her... > > It's very easy to become wrapped up in our own lives, but don't you > all want to help other people from going through what you already > have??? I just emailed her privately with a list of resources and > websites. It took me 5 minutes. I hope they build a healthy house > and I hope that I played a small role in it. > > Posting news articles and sharing " mold medications " is great and > all - but how do you propose that this is going to make a difference > in things being handled correctly from the get go, if none of you > have the time to respond to someone who isn't " sick " ??? > > Just something to think about... Perspective. Positive thinking. > Attitude. If the almost 2000 of you on this group would focus on > green and healthy building techniques, prevention, and understand > the " synergy " of everything involved in IAQ/IEQ, we could surely get > there a little faster. Mold is just one small piece of the puzzle, > like it or not... > > Stacey Champion > Owner/Consultant > Champion Indoor Environmental Services > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 -not true, I emailed off line with this person allot of information, and my telephone #- ALL THE DETAILS THAT GO INTO BUILDING A HOUSE ARE TOO MUCH TO TYPE . kAREN-- In , " Stacey Champion " <schampion@...> wrote: > > I am a bit perplexed why the name of this group is " " > and the majority of what is discussed here is mold... > > Bacteria, VOC's, pesticides, asbestos, lead paint, radon, dust > mites, and a plethora of other things all contribute to poor indoor > air/environmental quality as well you know. It all goes hand in > hand. > > There was a woman who posted saying that she was new to the group > and wanted to build a healthy house due to her families allergy > problems. One person posted a reply with the name of a magazine. > Granted it's a good magazine (I have a subscription,) but my point I > guess, is that there was an opportunity to HELP a person from the > beginning, who doesn't live in a " sick " house, who was looking to > this group for great resources, etc. on how she could keep her > family from getting sick. Nobody helped her... > > It's very easy to become wrapped up in our own lives, but don't you > all want to help other people from going through what you already > have??? I just emailed her privately with a list of resources and > websites. It took me 5 minutes. I hope they build a healthy house > and I hope that I played a small role in it. > > Posting news articles and sharing " mold medications " is great and > all - but how do you propose that this is going to make a difference > in things being handled correctly from the get go, if none of you > have the time to respond to someone who isn't " sick " ??? > > Just something to think about... Perspective. Positive thinking. > Attitude. If the almost 2000 of you on this group would focus on > green and healthy building techniques, prevention, and understand > the " synergy " of everything involved in IAQ/IEQ, we could surely get > there a little faster. Mold is just one small piece of the puzzle, > like it or not... > > Stacey Champion > Owner/Consultant > Champion Indoor Environmental Services > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 >We ARE helping others by sharing what we know. Most of the folks on this board are sick - some very, very sick. Unfortunately, some have died. Many are broke or close to it, though we don't charge anyone for the info we pass along. Most here aren't builders and many don't have the money to remediate let alone build new homes. Glad you helped the newbie who's not sick looking to build a clean house. You should - you have the info (which you didn't share with the group)- we don't. I don't mean to be offensive, but please don't judge us until you've walked in all of our shoes. My whole family has been sick for close to 8 yrs, we're unable to work or go to school. My husband is facing cancer from the mold exposure. My story isn't the worst on this board, we're the lucky ones - we're still alive. We know what positive attitude is - we don't need to be told. So, the board isn't named exactly as it should be, 2000 others have found it ok. We all realize that " " do have other problems other than mold. No one would argue that - KC does a fantastic job, which I'm sure takes a lot more than 5 minutes out of his day. If you really like to help folks, how about volunteering your services to needy families in your area that are sick from their 'sick' homes. SW Chapion wrote: > I am a bit perplexed why the name of this group is " " > and the majority of what is discussed here is mold... > > Bacteria, VOC's, pesticides, asbestos, lead paint, radon, dust > mites, and a plethora of other things all contribute to poor indoor > air/environmental quality as well you know. It all goes hand in > hand. > > There was a woman who posted saying that she was new to the group > and wanted to build a healthy house due to her families allergy > problems. One person posted a reply with the name of a magazine. > Granted it's a good magazine (I have a subscription,) but my point I > guess, is that there was an opportunity to HELP a person from the > beginning, who doesn't live in a " sick " house, who was looking to > this group for great resources, etc. on how she could keep her > family from getting sick. Nobody helped her... > > It's very easy to become wrapped up in our own lives, but don't you > all want to help other people from going through what you already > have??? I just emailed her privately with a list of resources and > websites. It took me 5 minutes. I hope they build a healthy house > and I hope that I played a small role in it. > > Posting news articles and sharing " mold medications " is great and > all - but how do you propose that this is going to make a difference > in things being handled correctly from the get go, if none of you > have the time to respond to someone who isn't " sick " ??? > > Just something to think about... Perspective. Positive thinking. > Attitude. If the almost 2000 of you on this group would focus on > green and healthy building techniques, prevention, and understand > the " synergy " of everything involved in IAQ/IEQ, we could surely get > there a little faster. Mold is just one small piece of the puzzle, > like it or not... > > Stacey Champion > Owner/Consultant > Champion Indoor Environmental Services > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Janet, Absolutely not. Please do not blame yourself and no need to apologize. This has been going on for a very long time, long before you posted and it's about time we nip it in the bud. KC > > Thank you KC. I feel some of this may be my fault. I posted on the IEQ board > about how dare they diss people with mold problems when it takes away our > whole lives. > Janet > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 At the end of my last post I wrote: " If you really like to help folks, how about volunteering your services to needy families in your area that are sick from their 'sick' homes. " After thinking more about that - I really think that's a fantastic idea! Stacey, since you're doing such a great job, you could volunteer your services to the poor, test their homes for free, line up (or do it yourself) remediation, and in the evening run a message board for those wanting info to build a green house! You could also set up a foundation and do fundraising for those who can't afford the medical care. AND in your spare time work on lobbying legislators for laws protecting people from shodding contractors and opportunistic indoor air inspectors. WOW! A good friend of mine, who did much of the above for kids affected by autism, was killed in a car accident in late Dec. Her son was stricken by autism from vaccines in 1996 - she has epidemilogical and clinical proof. In the past 10 years she founded the Coalition for SafeMinds (Sensible Action for Ending Mercury-Induced Neurological Disorders), Medical Interventions for Autism, the National Autism Association and the Illinois Vaccine Awareness Coalition. She also started the Xtreme Sports Camp, to give autistic children a chance to participate in sports rarely open to them by other means. She volunteered her time to the Committee on House Reform and co-wrote a congressional staff report, " Mercury in Medicines—Taking Unnecessary Risks, " published in the Congressional Record in 2003. She did endless hours of fund raising for autism research and to help families that went broke caring for their stricken children. She fought to get mercury out of vaccines,something she believed was a primary cause of her son's autism. Her efforts were chronicled in Kirby's book " Evidence of Harm, " released in April 2005. She was a single mom who, no matter how tired and discouraged she might be, still put one foot in front of the other each day to advocate for children & adults stricken by autism. She took no money for any of the work she did for the autism struggle - not one dime. She never critized anyone for how they were handling their plight - she listened, she knew everyone's situation was different and she had no right to tell others how to handle it. She never made those she helped feel indebted, never. She is a role model for all of us and will be missed. Now, what was that you were doing? In , " wiedb " <wiedb@...> wrote: > > > >We ARE helping others by sharing what we know. Most of the folks on > this board are sick - some very, very sick. Unfortunately, some have > died. Many are broke or close to it, though we don't charge anyone for > the info we pass along. Most here aren't builders and many don't have > the money to remediate let alone build new homes. Glad you helped the > newbie who's not sick looking to build a clean house. You should - you > have the info (which you didn't share with the group)- we don't. > I don't mean to be offensive, but please don't judge us until you've > walked in all of our shoes. My whole family has been sick for close to > 8 yrs, we're unable to work or go to school. My husband is facing > cancer from the mold exposure. My story isn't the worst on this board, > we're the lucky ones - we're still alive. We know what positive > attitude is - we don't need to be told. > So, the board isn't named exactly as it should be, 2000 others have > found it ok. We all realize that " " do have other > problems other than mold. No one would argue that - KC does a > fantastic job, which I'm sure takes a lot more than 5 minutes out of > his day. > If you really like to help folks, how about volunteering your services > to needy families in your area that are sick from their 'sick' homes. > SW > > Chapion wrote: > > I am a bit perplexed why the name of this group is " " > > and the majority of what is discussed here is mold... > > > > Bacteria, VOC's, pesticides, asbestos, lead paint, radon, dust > > mites, and a plethora of other things all contribute to poor indoor > > air/environmental quality as well you know. It all goes hand in > > hand. > > > > There was a woman who posted saying that she was new to the group > > and wanted to build a healthy house due to her families allergy > > problems. One person posted a reply with the name of a magazine. > > Granted it's a good magazine (I have a subscription,) but my point I > > guess, is that there was an opportunity to HELP a person from the > > beginning, who doesn't live in a " sick " house, who was looking to > > this group for great resources, etc. on how she could keep her > > family from getting sick. Nobody helped her... > > > > It's very easy to become wrapped up in our own lives, but don't you > > all want to help other people from going through what you already > > have??? I just emailed her privately with a list of resources and > > websites. It took me 5 minutes. I hope they build a healthy house > > and I hope that I played a small role in it. > > > > Posting news articles and sharing " mold medications " is great and > > all - but how do you propose that this is going to make a difference > > in things being handled correctly from the get go, if none of you > > have the time to respond to someone who isn't " sick " ??? > > > > Just something to think about... Perspective. Positive thinking. > > Attitude. If the almost 2000 of you on this group would focus on > > green and healthy building techniques, prevention, and understand > > the " synergy " of everything involved in IAQ/IEQ, we could surely get > > there a little faster. Mold is just one small piece of the puzzle, > > like it or not... > > > > Stacey Champion > > Owner/Consultant > > Champion Indoor Environmental Services > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 >It's very easy to become wrapped up in our own lives, but don't you >all want to help other people from going through what you already >have??? I just emailed her privately with a list of resources and >websites Kind of ironic here you went though all that trouble and didn't even share that information with the group? With all due respect I think you are being a little harsh on us. A lot of us are sick and don't have time to read every single post and take note of ones that go un replied. As in most forms/groups it's a free market system if the topic is in demand or interesting or as in your case a little inflammatory, you will get replies. Clearly you have some good points here. For most of us it's to late to build a new safe home so that's not a major topic but I would think talked about alot. Just go into the archives and look I am sure you will find plenty on this subject. I always try to do this on most newsgroups so that I can avoid beating an old topic to death and/or more intelligently post a question. But must admit I am guilty of not doing it on this group because I can't use google to search the archives like you can with use net. This may be a little presumptuous to say on my part and some may disagree but I believe the majority of us are disabled from MOLD not dust mites or out gassing of paint's and what not. Not that those things are not a great concern to us especially as a secondary injury. Further I believe those components can lead to immune suppression which can exasperate sensitivity to mold in the first place. And thus very important subject. But as so passionately states on this group it's peoples denial of the mold component that causes so much suffering especially in the cfs community. I know as personal experience I have lost a lot of valuable years of my life due to denial of the mold component and how paramount avoidance is for me. The way houses are built is very important but mean nothing if your new home gets mold in the drywall, underneath the flooring, in your ventilation system on your personal belongings etc. I would even venture to say if it wasn't for mold the phrase " sick buildings " would have never been coined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Stacey, A person who is forced to sleep outside their house due to toxigenic mold is going to put bacteria, VOC's, asbestos, lead paint, radon, dustmites and everyting else on the 'back burner'. Building a house free of these factors is fairly straightforward and considered fairly " normal " . Constructing a house and adding in bacteria, VOC's, dustmites, asbestos, lead paint, etc. is considered to be shoddy work and substandard quality, and not nearly as urgent and pressing as the immediate needs of the people who are just trying to survive the night. As we are about to see demonstrated in a fairly spectacular way, even if one builds a " normal " high quality house, which should be relatively low risk for these factors, it will avail nothing if the inhabitants are at a PIR for mycotoxin reactivity that will not allow them to endure the ambient levels of a moldy neighborhood. The PIR of the most active members of this group dominates and dictates the nature of the discussion. The perspective of the IEQ group shows that they do not understand advanced PIR's and finds the profound nature of severe mold illness to be " perplexing " . We " Extreme mold responders " started and have always dominated this group because we are so misunderstood elsewhere. Just as it has been strange that the doctors were the last profession to recognize mold illness, it is perplexing to us that Air Quality Experts, who should have been the first to " relate " have been so slow in doing so. - " Stacey Champion " wrote: I am a bit perplexed why the name of this group is " " and the majority of what is discussed here is mold... Bacteria, VOC's, pesticides, asbestos, lead paint, radon, dust mites, and a plethora of other things all contribute to poor indoor air/environmental quality as well you know. It all goes hand in hand. There was a woman who posted saying that she was new to the group and wanted to build a healthy house due to her families allergy problems. One person posted a reply with the name of a magazine. Granted it's a good magazine (I have a subscription,) but my point I guess, is that there was an opportunity to HELP a person from the beginning, who doesn't live in a " sick " house, who was looking to this group for great resources, etc. on how she could keep her family from getting sick. Nobody helped her... It's very easy to become wrapped up in our own lives, but don't you all want to help other people from going through what you already have??? I just emailed her privately with a list of resources and websites. It took me 5 minutes. I hope they build a healthy house and I hope that I played a small role in it. Posting news articles and sharing " mold medications " is great and all - but how do you propose that this is going to make a difference in things being handled correctly from the get go, if none of you have the time to respond to someone who isn't " sick " ??? Just something to think about... Perspective. Positive thinking. Attitude. If the almost 2000 of you on this group would focus on green and healthy building techniques, prevention, and understand the " synergy " of everything involved in IAQ/IEQ, we could surely get there a little faster. Mold is just one small piece of the puzzle, like it or not... Stacey Champion Owner/Consultant Champion Indoor Environmental Services > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 I don't understand how people don't get mold being toxic b/c penicillin meds/shots can kill or cause allergic reations in people. It almost killed me when younger. Did something to my heart right after I got a shot and then came the rash all over body and swelling all over including the throat. I really need to get a bracelet and wear it all the time. Also, if I got anything with mushrooms in food when younger, I had bad reactions. People accept peanuts can kill if allergic but they don't get mold. Crazy. Rhonda > > >It's very easy to become wrapped up in our own lives, but don't you > >all want to help other people from going through what you already > >have??? I just emailed her privately with a list of resources and > >websites > Kind of ironic here you went though all that trouble and didn't even > share that information with the group? > > With all due respect I think you are being a little harsh on us. A > lot of us are sick and don't have time to read every single post and > take note of ones that go un replied. As in most forms/groups it's a > free market system if the topic is in demand or interesting or as in > your case a little inflammatory, you will get replies. > > Clearly you have some good points here. For most of us it's to late > to build a new safe home so that's not a major topic but I would > think talked about alot. Just go into the archives and look I am sure > you will find plenty on this subject. I always try to do this on most > newsgroups so that I can avoid beating an old topic to death and/or > more intelligently post a question. But must admit I am guilty of not > doing it on this group because I can't use google to search the > archives like you can with use net. > > This may be a little presumptuous to say on my part and some may > disagree but I believe the majority of us are disabled from MOLD not > dust mites or out gassing of paint's and what not. Not that those > things are not a great concern to us especially as a secondary injury. > Further I believe those components can lead to immune suppression > which can exasperate sensitivity to mold in the first place. And > thus very important subject. > But as so passionately states on this group it's peoples denial > of the mold component that causes so much suffering especially in the > cfs community. I know as personal experience I have lost a lot of > valuable years of my life due to denial of the mold component and how > paramount avoidance is for me. > > The way houses are built is very important but mean nothing if your > new home gets mold in the drywall, underneath the flooring, in your > ventilation system on your personal belongings etc. I would even > venture to say if it wasn't for mold the phrase " sick buildings " > would have never been coined. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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