Guest guest Posted May 25, 2006 Report Share Posted May 25, 2006 Gwen, There really isn't a recognized pattern for bipolar on the TLC--or in the QEEG to the best of my knowledge. There is some indication that it may be, like other affective issues, a Tone problem. When the Autonomic Nervous System is stuck in Sympathetic mode, the client in manic; due to adrenal exhaustion after a period, the client collapses into the depressive phase. ADHD is, of course, such a broad category that there is no one pattern that relates to it. As you may recall from the Level 2 training, in the TLC we think of it as a continuum between Processing problems (primary language-processing issues and a tendency to fall back into one's own thoughts) and Filterning problems (distractible, impulsive, emotionally labile). Processing is characterized by excessive slow-wave activity, theta/beta ratios that are high (above 2.0), often low alpha/theta ratios. It is often clear in the sensorimotor cortex and especially in the parietal and posterior temporal areas (e.g. T5 and T6 optional sites) when there are learning problems or sensory integration issues. Filterning is more likely to show up with lower than normal theta/beta ratios (below 1.2) and low levels of SMR (less than 10% of total EEG at C4 with eyes open) in the assessment. Anxiety shows a variety of patterns: excessive beta on the right frontally, more beta in the parietal or occipital regions (relative values) than in the frontals, low levels of alpha in the parietals, or high levels of alpha in the frontals (especially with slow peak frequency in alpha). Pete > > From: " Alan J. " <a_smith@...> > Date: 2006/05/24 Wed AM 08:21:51 EDT > < > > Subject: TLC Assessment > > We have an opportunity to work with a psychiatrist and show what > neurofeedback can do. Of greatest interest are the differences between > Bipolar, ADHD, and Anxiety on the TLC Assessment in children/adolescents. > What protocols are you finding to be most useful in Bipolar, ADHD, and > Anxiety? > > > > Gwen > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2006 Report Share Posted June 14, 2006 Dear All A few of us are thinking of meeting to look at the TLC assessment following Sebern Fisher's workshop in Sydney on the 26th of June. Owing to a computer crash I have lost contact details for those previously interested. If you are interested or know of anyone who is interested please forward this to them. We are not sure of a venue as yet so we are open to suggestions or offers. Regards Mark Baddeley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Jo,If you have a spike at 50 Hz, that's almost certainly electromagnetic interference. If you have activity in the high 40's and into the 50's, etc.then it is likely EMG from muscle tension.Pete -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 11:07 AM, sato3jp <sato3jp@...> wrote: Pete, I sometimes cannot reduce 50Hz level whatever I do. If someone have very high hi-beta. That would affect 50Hz level, wouldn't it? So high level of 50Hz may not be a noise but brainwave? Jo Sato Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Pete, Thank you. I will monitor the muscle tension more closely. Please answer about very low frequency reward. When I try to find the smr frequency for young one, I lower the reward frequency to find the client movement stop or his shoulder drop. I go as low as 0-3Hz with inhibit frequencies 1-14Hz and 15-38Hz. I am not comfortable to reward that low but I get good result doing so. Last time an autistic boy of ten became calm with the reward of 1.5-4.5Hz at T4 and P4. You said that if it work, keep doing it. But I need reconfirmation that it is OK to do so from you. Jo > Jo, > > If you have a spike at 50 Hz, that's almost certainly electromagnetic > interference. If you have activity in the high 40's and into the 50's, > etc.then it is likely EMG from muscle tension. > > Pete > > -- > Van Deusen > pvdtlc@... > http://www.brain-trainer.com > 305/433-3160 > The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 11:07 AM, sato3jp <sato3jp@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pete, > > > > I sometimes cannot reduce 50Hz level whatever I do. > > If someone have very high hi-beta. > > That would affect 50Hz level, wouldn't it? > > So high level of 50Hz may not be a noise but brainwave? > > > > Jo Sato > > > > > > > > > -- ÆüËܥ˥塼¥í¥Õ¥£¡¼¥É¥Ð¥Ã¥¯ º´Æ£¡¡¾ù ·ÈÂÓ¡¡090-7302-1282 ·ÈÂӥ᡼¥ë¡¡neurofeedback@... ¥Û¡¼¥à¥Ú¡¼¥¸¡¡http://neurofeedback.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Jo,I'm afraid I'm not the person to help you with the very low frequency stuff. I don't use it. I would agree that if it calmed the client, then at least the temporary effect is good. My only concern is whether the effect ever stabilizes. You've gotten some answers from people who do use the system and they sound pretty reasonable.Pete -- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. 2009/3/30 º´Æ£¾ù <sato3jp@...> Pete, Thank you. I will monitor the muscle tension more closely. Please answer about very low frequency reward. When I try to find the smr frequency for young one, I lower the reward frequency to find the client movement stop or his shoulder drop. I go as low as 0-3Hz with inhibit frequencies 1-14Hz and 15-38Hz. I am not comfortable to reward that low but I get good result doing so. Last time an autistic boy of ten became calm with the reward of 1.5-4.5Hz at T4 and P4. You said that if it work, keep doing it. But I need reconfirmation that it is OK to do so from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Hi Jo,I don't use the low frequencies reward, but I understand that the people who started that training always used on bipolar montages, so you are not rewarding the low frequency on a specific location, you are increasing the difference between those two active sites, e.g. between T4 and P4. Now, my concern is that in that range of frequency, I personally believe, is better to decrease the difference, looking for a closer coherence between those two sites. JRFrom: Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:37:37 PMSubject: Re: TLC assessment Jo,I'm afraid I'm not the person to help you with the very low frequency stuff. I don't use it. I would agree that if it calmed the client, then at least the temporary effect is good. My only concern is whether the effect ever stabilizes. You've gotten some answers from people who do use the system and they sound pretty reasonable.Pete -- Van Deusenpvdtlcgmail (DOT) comhttp://www.brain-trainer.com305/433-3160The Learning Curve, Inc. 2009/3/30 ä½è—¤è² <sato3jpgmail (DOT) com> Pete, Thank you. I will monitor the muscle tension more closely. Please answer about very low frequency reward. When I try to find the smr frequency for young one, I lower the reward frequency to find the client movement stop or his shoulder drop. I go as low as 0-3Hz with inhibit frequencies 1-14Hz and 15-38Hz. I am not comfortable to reward that low but I get good result doing so. Last time an autistic boy of ten became calm with the reward of 1.5-4.5Hz at T4 and P4. You said that if it work, keep doing it. But I need reconfirmation that it is OK to do so from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 , My electrode placements are T4 active, A2 reference, A1 ground. Do you know about Betty's protocol which reward 6-9Hz at T4 for autistic clients. I was getting good results using it. And I got better results when I lowered the reward to say somewhere like 5.5-8.5. And I also lower reward frequency at C4 to find client's shoulder drop. I got good results rewarding 1.5-4.5Hz at T4 and P4 last time. But I am not comfortable doing so, if the chances of triggering seizure increase. Jo 2009/4/3 R. <jrdiaz@...> > > > > > > > > Hi Jo, > > I don't use the low frequencies reward, but I understand that the people who started that training always used on bipolar montages, so you are not rewarding the low frequency on a specific location, you are increasing the difference between those two active sites, e.g. between T4 and P4. > Now, my concern is that in that range of frequency, I personally believe, is better to decrease the difference, looking for a closer coherence between those two sites. > > JR > > > > > ________________________________ From: Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:37:37 PM > Subject: Re: TLC assessment > > > > > > Jo, > > I'm afraid I'm not the person to help you with the very low frequency stuff. I don't use it. I would agree that if it calmed the client, then at least the temporary effect is good. My only concern is whether the effect ever stabilizes. > > You've gotten some answers from people who do use the system and they sound pretty reasonable. > > Pete > > -- > Van Deusen > pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com > http://www.brain-trainer.com > 305/433-3160 > The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > > 2009/3/30 º´Æ£¾ù <sato3jpgmail (DOT) com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pete, > > > > Thank you. I will monitor the muscle tension more closely. > > Please answer about very low frequency reward. > > When I try to find the smr frequency for young one, I lower the reward > > frequency to find the client movement stop or his shoulder drop. I go > > as low as 0-3Hz with inhibit frequencies 1-14Hz and 15-38Hz. > > I am not comfortable to reward that low but I get good result doing so. > > Last time an autistic boy of ten became calm with the reward of > > 1.5-4.5Hz at T4 and P4. > > You said that if it work, keep doing it. > > But I need reconfirmation that it is OK to do so from you. > > > > > > > > > > -- ÆüËܥ˥塼¥í¥Õ¥£¡¼¥É¥Ð¥Ã¥¯ º´Æ£¡¡¾ù ·ÈÂÓ¡¡090-7302-1282 ·ÈÂӥ᡼¥ë¡¡neurofeedback@... ¥Û¡¼¥à¥Ú¡¼¥¸¡¡http://neurofeedback.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Pete, When I reward 1.5-4.5Hz and inhibit 2-14 and 15-38Hz at T4, I set the threshold of the reward to 98% or so. Do you think there is a big difference between setting reward threshold at 98% and having no reward only inhibition of 2-14Hz and 15-38Hz. Jo 2009/4/1, Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...>: > > > > > > > Jo, > > I'm afraid I'm not the person to help you with the very low frequency stuff. > I don't use it. I would agree that if it calmed the client, then at least > the temporary effect is good. My only concern is whether the effect ever > stabilizes. > > You've gotten some answers from people who do use the system and they sound > pretty reasonable. > > Pete > > -- > Van Deusen > pvdtlc@... > http://www.brain-trainer.com > 305/433-3160 > The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > 2009/3/30 º´Æ£¾ù <sato3jp@...> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pete, > > > > Thank you. I will monitor the muscle tension more closely. > > Please answer about very low frequency reward. > > When I try to find the smr frequency for young one, I lower the reward > > frequency to find the client movement stop or his shoulder drop. I go > > as low as 0-3Hz with inhibit frequencies 1-14Hz and 15-38Hz. > > I am not comfortable to reward that low but I get good result doing so. > > Last time an autistic boy of ten became calm with the reward of > > 1.5-4.5Hz at T4 and P4. > > You said that if it work, keep doing it. > > But I need reconfirmation that it is OK to do so from you. > > > > > > > -- ÆüËܥ˥塼¥í¥Õ¥£¡¼¥É¥Ð¥Ã¥¯ º´Æ£¡¡¾ù ·ÈÂÓ¡¡090-7302-1282 ·ÈÂӥ᡼¥ë¡¡neurofeedback@... ¥Û¡¼¥à¥Ú¡¼¥¸¡¡http://neurofeedback.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Jo,That rewards sound OK for a young kid (ASD or not), but using 1.5-4.5Hz in a monopolar montage sounds to risky for my taste. JRFrom: ä½è—¤è² <sato3jp@...> Sent: Friday, April 3, 2009 5:51:25 AMSubject: Re: TLC assessment , My electrode placements are T4 active, A2 reference, A1 ground. Do you know about Betty's protocol which reward 6-9Hz at T4 for autistic clients. I was getting good results using it. And I got better results when I lowered the reward to say somewhere like 5.5-8.5. And I also lower reward frequency at C4 to find client's shoulder drop. I got good results rewarding 1.5-4.5Hz at T4 and P4 last time. But I am not comfortable doing so, if the chances of triggering seizure increase. Jo 2009/4/3 R. <jrdiaz (DOT) com> > > > > > > > > Hi Jo, > > I don't use the low frequencies reward, but I understand that the people who started that training always used on bipolar montages, so you are not rewarding the low frequency on a specific location, you are increasing the difference between those two active sites, e.g. between T4 and P4. > Now, my concern is that in that range of frequency, I personally believe, is better to decrease the difference, looking for a closer coherence between those two sites. > > JR > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ From: Van Deusen <pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:37:37 PM > Subject: Re: TLC assessment > > > > > > Jo, > > I'm afraid I'm not the person to help you with the very low frequency stuff. I don't use it. I would agree that if it calmed the client, then at least the temporary effect is good. My only concern is whether the effect ever stabilizes. > > You've gotten some answers from people who do use the system and they sound pretty reasonable. > > Pete > > -- > Van Deusen > pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com > http://www.brain-trainer.com > 305/433-3160 > The Learning Curve, Inc. > > > > 2009/3/30 ä½è—¤è² <sato3jpgmail (DOT) com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pete, > > > > Thank you. I will monitor the muscle tension more closely. > > Please answer about very low frequency reward. > > When I try to find the smr frequency for young one, I lower the reward > > frequency to find the client movement stop or his shoulder drop. I go > > as low as 0-3Hz with inhibit frequencies 1-14Hz and 15-38Hz. > > I am not comfortable to reward that low but I get good result doing so. > > Last time an autistic boy of ten became calm with the reward of > > 1.5-4.5Hz at T4 and P4. > > You said that if it work, keep doing it. > > But I need reconfirmation that it is OK to do so from you. > > > > > > > > > > -- 日本ニューãƒãƒ•ã‚£ãƒ¼ãƒ‰ãƒãƒƒã‚¯ ä½è—¤ã€€è² æºå¸¯ã€€090-7302-1282 æºå¸¯ãƒ¡ãƒ¼ãƒ«ã€€neurofeedback@ docomo.ne. jp ホームページ　http://neurofeedback.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 JR, I know it sound risky. That's why I am asking your emotional supports to find out someone else might have done it and got good results like me. Jo 2009/4/4, R. <jrdiaz@...>: Jo,That rewards sound OK for a young kid (ASD or not), but using 1.5-4.5Hz in a monopolar montage sounds to risky for my taste. JR From: º´Æ£¾ù <sato3jp@...> Sent: Friday, April 3, 2009 5:51:25 AM Subject: Re: TLC assessment ,My electrode placements are T4 active, A2 reference, A1 ground.Do you know about Betty's protocol which reward 6-9Hz at T4 forautistic clients.I was getting good results using it. And I got better results when I lowered the reward to say somewhere like 5.5-8.5.And I also lower reward frequency at C4 to find client's shoulder drop.I got good results rewarding 1.5-4.5Hz at T4 and P4 last time.But I am not comfortable doing so, if the chances of triggering seizure increase.Jo2009/4/3 R. <jrdiaz (DOT) com>> >>>>>>> Hi Jo,>> I don't use the low frequencies reward, but I understand that the people who started that training always used on bipolar montages, so you are not rewarding the low frequency on a specific location, you are increasing the difference between those two active sites, e.g. between T4 and P4. > Now, my concern is that in that range of frequency, I personally believe, is better to decrease the difference, looking for a closer coherence between those two sites.>> JR>>>> > ____________ _________ _________ __From: Van Deusen <pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:37:37 PM > Subject: Re: TLC assessment>>>>>> Jo,>> I'm afraid I'm not the person to help you with the very low frequency stuff. I don't use it. I would agree that if it calmed the client, then at least the temporary effect is good. My only concern is whether the effect ever stabilizes. >> You've gotten some answers from people who do use the system and they sound pretty reasonable.>> Pete>> --> Van Deusen> pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com> http://www.brain-trainer.com > 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc.>>>> 2009/3/30 º´Æ£¾ù <sato3jpgmail (DOT) com>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Pete, > >> > Thank you. I will monitor the muscle tension more closely.> > Please answer about very low frequency reward.> > When I try to find the smr frequency for young one, I lower the reward > > frequency to find the client movement stop or his shoulder drop. I go> > as low as 0-3Hz with inhibit frequencies 1-14Hz and 15-38Hz.> > I am not comfortable to reward that low but I get good result doing so. > > Last time an autistic boy of ten became calm with the reward of> > 1.5-4.5Hz at T4 and P4.> > You said that if it work, keep doing it.> > But I need reconfirmation that it is OK to do so from you. > >>>>>>>>> -- ÆüËܥ˥塼¥í¥Õ¥£¡¼¥É¥Ð¥Ã¥¯º´Æ£¡¡¾ù·ÈÂÓ¡¡090-7302-1282·ÈÂӥ᡼¥ë¡¡neurofeedback@ docomo.ne. jp ¥Û¡¼¥à¥Ú¡¼¥¸¡¡http://neurofeedback.jp/ -- ÆüËܥ˥塼¥í¥Õ¥£¡¼¥É¥Ð¥Ã¥¯º´Æ£¡¡¾ù·ÈÂÓ¡¡090-7302-1282·ÈÂӥ᡼¥ë¡¡neurofeedback@... ¥Û¡¼¥à¥Ú¡¼¥¸¡¡http://neurofeedback.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Jo,Maybe you should contact directly Sieg, Sue and/or Kurt Othmer to discuss your findings.Best regards,JRFrom: ä½è—¤è² <sato3jp@...> Sent: Friday, April 3, 2009 7:46:56 PMSubject: Re: TLC assessment JR, I know it sound risky. That's why I am asking your emotional supports to find out someone else might have done it and got good results like me. Jo 2009/4/4, R. <jrdiaz (DOT) com>: Jo,That rewards sound OK for a young kid (ASD or not), but using 1.5-4.5Hz in a monopolar montage sounds to risky for my taste. JR From: ä½è—¤è² <sato3jpgmail (DOT) com> Sent: Friday, April 3, 2009 5:51:25 AM Subject: Re: TLC assessment ,My electrode placements are T4 active, A2 reference, A1 ground.Do you know about Betty's protocol which reward 6-9Hz at T4 forautistic clients.I was getting good results using it. And I got better results when I lowered the reward to say somewhere like 5.5-8.5.And I also lower reward frequency at C4 to find client's shoulder drop.I got good results rewarding 1.5-4.5Hz at T4 and P4 last time.But I am not comfortable doing so, if the chances of triggering seizure increase.Jo2009/4/3 R. <jrdiaz (DOT) com>> >>>>>>> Hi Jo,>> I don't use the low frequencies reward, but I understand that the people who started that training always used on bipolar montages, so you are not rewarding the low frequency on a specific location, you are increasing the difference between those two active sites, e.g. between T4 and P4. > Now, my concern is that in that range of frequency, I personally believe, is better to decrease the difference, looking for a closer coherence between those two sites.>> JR>>>> > ____________ _________ _________ __From: Van Deusen <pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:37:37 PM > Subject: Re: TLC assessment>>>>>> Jo,>> I'm afraid I'm not the person to help you with the very low frequency stuff. I don't use it. I would agree that if it calmed the client, then at least the temporary effect is good. My only concern is whether the effect ever stabilizes. >> You've gotten some answers from people who do use the system and they sound pretty reasonable.>> Pete>> --> Van Deusen> pvdtlcgmail (DOT) com> http://www.brain-trainer.com/ > 305/433-3160> The Learning Curve, Inc.>>>> 2009/3/30 ä½è—¤è² <sato3jpgmail (DOT) com>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Pete, > >> > Thank you. I will monitor the muscle tension more closely.> > Please answer about very low frequency reward.> > When I try to find the smr frequency for young one, I lower the reward > > frequency to find the client movement stop or his shoulder drop. I go> > as low as 0-3Hz with inhibit frequencies 1-14Hz and 15-38Hz.> > I am not comfortable to reward that low but I get good result doing so. > > Last time an autistic boy of ten became calm with the reward of> > 1.5-4.5Hz at T4 and P4.> > You said that if it work, keep doing it.> > But I need reconfirmation that it is OK to do so from you. > >>>>>>>>> -- 日本ニューãƒãƒ•ã‚£ãƒ¼ãƒ‰ãƒãƒƒã‚¯ä½è—¤ã€€è²æºå¸¯ã€€090-7302-1282æºå¸¯ãƒ¡ãƒ¼ãƒ«ã€€neurofeedback@ docomo.ne. jp ホームページ　http://neurofeedback.jp/ -- 日本ニューãƒãƒ•ã‚£ãƒ¼ãƒ‰ãƒãƒƒã‚¯ä½è—¤ã€€è²æºå¸¯ã€€090-7302-1282æºå¸¯ãƒ¡ãƒ¼ãƒ«ã€€neurofeedback@ docomo.ne. jp ホームページ　http://neurofeedbac k.jp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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