Guest guest Posted May 6, 2006 Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 Fpz is prefrontal--the heart of the executive system. The pre-motor cortex lies between F3/Fz/F4 and C3/Cz/C4. Pete > > From: " Mark Baddeley " <baddeley@...> > Date: 2006/05/06 Sat AM 02:58:11 EDT > < > > Subject: Pre-motor > > Is the relevant site for pre-motor FPZ? > Mark > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2006 Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 Interesting area. I just did a session of HEG there and felt an uncontrollable desire to grab a guitar! ~ A Do Something Useful Pre-motor> > Is the relevant site for pre-motor FPZ?> Mark> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2006 Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 A, If you've trained with HEG at FPZ and the result is to be "uncontrollable," even for a seemingly happy thing such as guitar playing, you are probably overtraining. M. --------- Pre-motor> > Is the relevant site for pre-motor FPZ?> Mark> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2006 Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 Thanks, Pete. Would it then be reasonable to train the premotor strip at half way between CZ and FZ? Mark Pre-motor> > Is the relevant site for pre-motor FPZ?> Mark> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2006 Report Share Posted May 6, 2006 Thanks, I was thinking along those lines myself. I'm cutting down to less than two hours a day now. Gotten such good results that I need to search a bit harder for something to complain about. Please consider my use of the term "uncontrollable" in a good way (for now). ~ A DSU Pre-motor> > Is the relevant site for pre-motor FPZ?> Mark> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Mark, In my early days with Lubar, we learned to train at FCz, which is halfway between Fz and Cz. We also trained bipolar at FCz and CPz. Pete > > From: " Mark Baddeley " <baddeley@...> > Date: 2006/05/07 Sun AM 12:24:00 EDT > < > > Subject: Re: Pre-motor > > Thanks, Pete. > Would it then be reasonable to train the premotor strip at half way between CZ and FZ? > Mark > > Pre-motor > > > > Is the relevant site for pre-motor FPZ? > > Mark > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 , You weren't clear in your post whether you were training prefrontal or premotor. If prefrontal, at Fpz, then that's definitely too much. In fact, training HEG 2 hours a day (when it is recommended for no more than about 30 minutes every 3rd day or so) might suggest that you already have WAY too much activity on the frontal midline already. Pete > > From: " A " <PetePixxx@...> > Date: 2006/05/07 Sun AM 01:15:02 EDT > < > > Subject: Re: Pre-motor > > Thanks, I was thinking along those lines myself. I'm cutting down to less than two hours a day now. Gotten such good results that I need to search a bit harder for something to complain about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Pete, Not to worry about over training. I cross-train different spots and frequencies and modes (heg, eeg). I watch to see if I can sustain a result. If I get tired I stop. I work heg all the way around and over the head, clearly noticing changes in perception soon after (i.e. facial recognition) telling me that the heg is making the desire changes. ~ A DSU Re: Pre-motor> > Thanks, I was thinking along those lines myself. I'm cutting down to less than two hours a day now. Gotten such good results that I need to search a bit harder for something to complain about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 A, Where do you train for facial recognition? Rah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 A - I'm happy for you that you're pleased with your results, but I think you might even be happier with your results if you decreased your HEG training frequency and duration. A good rule of thumb is a 20-30 min. as often as every other day, no more than three times per week. If you must do more training than that, make it EEG, and get off the prefrontal cortex. The effects of HEG are generally less immediately obvious than with EEG, and sleep is your ally when it comes to consolidating gains. Adequate rest is essential. Catch some zzzzzzzs man! --------- Pre-motor> > Is the relevant site for pre-motor FPZ?> Mark> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 Rah, T6, Face Fusiform Area. Really fun mental things happen. I found myself noticing, and laying out a mental topographical map, of a fellow's ear lobe. Too funny! ~ A DSU ----- Original Message ----- From: Rah Wheelihan-Dasher A, Where do you train for facial recognition? Rah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 , Thanks again for the concern and help to adjust my training so it is more beneficial. I'm trying to imagine being happier with my results. Not easy to do. Physical endurance is UP, headaches are DOWN. Got to wonder about only working feedback so infrequently. Maybe it's just me, but it sounds more like a "clinical" restriction, that is based on client ability/willingness to pay for time, rather than a physical restriction. I've got the equipment and I'm not too horrible on reading the screens. Once a user is past the first "hump" in initial control of a feedback mechanism, and can maintain control, why can't they keep going? Especially if it is a gradual slow increase like a stable heg signal? Yes, the first month I was doing heg the signal was all over the place and I just tried to get it to raise. I was real good, then nothing, then real good. Now it it starts stable and climbs slo-o-owly as I watch a movie. That's why I think I can "go long" without too much worry. Is that wrong? I really do like the ideal of not burning out any one area. I've shifted around the head, but have been inconsistent. I'll change to training "zones", so to speak, front/back/left/right/top in sequence. Sort of like a weight lifter alternating leg with chest & arms. You can call me "Mr. Skinhead" (in a nice way :-) ). Thanks for the idea. Oh, and I'm getting lots of rest, though sleeping somewhat less than I used to. But I'm sleeping like a baby, waking up refreshed, and becoming alert quickly, which I can't remember ever doing consistently in the past. Alert is gradually becoming the norm. Kinda like that old Army saying "getting more done before nine a.m. than others (the old me) do all day". Have a great day! ~ A DSU Pre-motor> > Is the relevant site for pre-motor FPZ?> Mark> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2006 Report Share Posted May 7, 2006 A.. There's no indication that the training guidelines are to drive clinician benefit. Both HEG developers are supportive of hometraining and both keep close track on their client outcome data. Hershel is practically evangelical about the helpfulness of sleep for consolidating gains. Jeff Carmen says he routinely trains only 20-30 min once per week with his clients, because his outcome data do not show increased benefits with longer duration or more frequent trainings. If you're happy with the results, then you're happy. Your previous post mentioned "uncontrollable" and that prompted my caution against overtraining. Prefrontal fatigue results in a loss of control and may manifest as a net increase in impulsivity and really problematic emotional lability. Fortunately, your impulses have been for happy (or at worst benign) undertakings. I guess if you're hometraining you can afford to sacrifice training efficiency for the rush of signal tracking. That's how I started out, too, but I would not do it that way now. Enjoy your ride, --------- Pre-motor> > Is the relevant site for pre-motor FPZ?> Mark> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2006 Report Share Posted May 8, 2006 Bruce McMillan sees the future of biofeedback as " always on " . I would like to agree with him for the coolness factor. I assume he knows some facts about brain function as well to support his idea. When I watched a movie I used to switch sites every 20-30 minutes because I got fatigued and did some changes to the thresholds. I think that was ok. I have no idea how someone can train one site for 2 hours non-stop. T > You weren't clear in your post whether you were training prefrontal or premotor. If prefrontal, at Fpz, then that's definitely too much. In fact, training HEG 2 hours a day (when it is recommended for no more than about 30 minutes every 3rd day or so) might suggest that you already have WAY too much activity on the frontal midline already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2006 Report Share Posted May 8, 2006 T, I tend to agree that we as humans are "always on" for biofeedback. Usually it is just our normal interaction with the world. Can we "feel" the ball well enough to put it into the hoop? Can we cut our meat with a dull knife? Are we "awake" enough to get out of bed? The machines we use just amplify the bodies "usually below threshold" feedback items. If any biofeedback "amplifier" is set to tell the user that they are in a DESIRED state for the current activity then I don't understand why it would make any difference at all whether it is on or off. Except, of course, for all the bells and whistles going off to confirm "compliance". If you get "fatigued" then quit. But try to figure out why your endurance is poor so to better train next time. Are your settings "correct" for your individual brain? Are you trying to "improve too fast", or perhaps trying to make it over a speed bump in your progress? Initial contact is quite different from an attempt to make a big change. But if you don't do it very long you may be missing the chance to make the mental note of how you are making the change (whether conscious or unconscious). As far as training "ONE" site for two hours? I thought about this as I was "skinning" my head for HEG all over training. Except for the "alpha marathon" I hadn't even considered it. My training was always based on a musical or physical style of training. Warm up (scales), Review (songs you already are competent with), Play (new material), Cool down (slow/stretching). Got to think more of how this might better apply to the BF. I'm thinking that I need to adjust my "tasks" better so to train at each site more efficiently. Thanks for helping to get the ideas flowing. ~ A Do Something Useful Re: Pre-motor Bruce McMillan sees the future of biofeedback as "always on". I would like to agree with him for the coolness factor. I assume he knows some facts about brain function as well to support his idea.When I watched a movie I used to switch sites every 20-30 minutes because I got fatigued and did some changes to the thresholds. I think that was ok. I have no idea how someone can train one site for 2 hours non-stop.T> You weren't clear in your post whether you were training prefrontal or premotor. If prefrontal, at Fpz, then that's definitely too much. In fact, training HEG 2 hours a day (when it is recommended for no more than about 30 minutes every 3rd day or so) might suggest that you already have WAY too much activity on the frontal midline already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2006 Report Share Posted May 8, 2006 Quite a long post. I managed to understand some points of it. Interesting nonetheless, but, well, too much over the top of my head. I know someone who has worn BF equipment all day with good results. He described it becomes like an extra sense; you hear EXACTLY when you go out of zone (EEG, GSR, HRV) or tense your muscles (EMG). With HEG I got headaches that eventually hurt so much I decided at some point I couldn't take it anymore. I don't quite understand what you mean by " initial contact " . It was not the first time I had trained HEG, more like the 150th session. Because Pete thought you were training only one site, I assumed he understood you correctly. Obviously he didn't. The way you describe doing your musical training, may work... however, I don't think that a system that works in physical training necessarily works the same on a brain. I've heard that with brain, play works. An enlightened brain works perfedtly. It can play " perfectly " , using players from all areas simultaneously. So the best thing might be to imagine that you're already enlightened and ease up. Btw, do not model me for this. T > > > You weren't clear in your post whether you were training prefrontal > or premotor. If prefrontal, at Fpz, then that's definitely too much. > In fact, training HEG 2 hours a day (when it is recommended for no > more than about 30 minutes every 3rd day or so) might suggest that you > already have WAY too much activity on the frontal midline already. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2006 Report Share Posted May 8, 2006 T, Sorry, too late!! I called up "America's next top model" and you need to get to L.A. ASAP! Just to review: Pete noted that "I" was not clear, but gave a warning just in case. See original below. Interesting concept to use BF all day to let you know when you are out of the zone. You brought in an additional element to the conversation about HEG causing headaches?? That sure makes me wonder what the rest of your TLC assessment looked like! What was causing the headache? Or which brain wave was put out of kilter by HEG? Or, did it just make you "aware" of an already existing imbalance? Or, did it open a floodgate? or what? What does your TLC show? I'm very interested cause I would say that HEG has never "caused" one of my numerous styles of headache. But it will sometimes make me more sensitive and aware so I "notice" a tension headache more, but some Yoga seems to do the trick for that. But HEG "relieved" most other headaches I got quickly. I won't be able to make too many more comments on this subject soon ( did I hear a YEAH! from the peanut gallery? :-) ), cause the headaches are slipping into the past. I keep forgetting to take my Excedrin, and find I don't miss it. Even "scents" (perfumes and tobacco) which always used to get me are muting. I can even be nearer to news/magazine ink smell without too much trouble. I read a newspaper again for the first time in twenty years this morning without getting dizzy! Lets hope it lasts. No time to "ease up" yet! Too much to do! Of course, doing the EEG training based on the TLC is fully included in what has helped me so far, not just HEG. Amazing stuff. Have a great. Send your most recent TLC so we can have a look! ~ A Do Something Useful Re: Pre-motor Quite a long post. I managed to understand some points of it. Interesting nonetheless, but, well, too much over the top of my head.I know someone who has worn BF equipment all day with good results. He described it becomes like an extra sense; you hear EXACTLY when you go out of zone (EEG, GSR, HRV) or tense your muscles (EMG).With HEG I got headaches that eventually hurt so much I decided at some point I couldn't take it anymore.I don't quite understand what you mean by "initial contact". It was not the first time I had trained HEG, more like the 150th session.Because Pete thought you were training only one site, I assumed he understood you correctly. Obviously he didn't.The way you describe doing your musical training, may work... however, I don't think that a system that works in physical training necessarily works the same on a brain.I've heard that with brain, play works. An enlightened brain works perfedtly. It can play "perfectly", using players from all areas simultaneously. So the best thing might be to imagine that you're already enlightened and ease up.Btw, do not model me for this.T> > > You weren't clear in your post whether you were training prefrontal > or premotor. If prefrontal, at Fpz, then that's definitely too much. > In fact, training HEG 2 hours a day (when it is recommended for no > more than about 30 minutes every 3rd day or so) might suggest that you > already have WAY too much activity on the frontal midline already.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.