Re: SMR / Do I have a sweet spot?

May 9, 2006

Rah~

If your peak is about 10 then your alpha is about 8-12 with 10 being the

middle high point. So if SMR is above your alpha it would be 12-15 ish.

From what I understand the " sweet spot " can be anywhere from 12-15 down into

the delta ranges, if you can find it, not always that easy. How have you

been training SMR? Have you tried C4 A2 SMR % up?

~

SMR / Do I have a " sweet spot? "

Sometimes I think I hear discussion that leads me to conclude that

the SMR rhythm can be found within the alpha band. This comes from

the idea of stepping down until the correct spot is found.

If Central Alpha PF is 10-10.5 will SMR be found definitely above

that (meaning I don't have to keep going down looking for it)?

12-15 does not feel good, to put it mildly, so if SMR must be above

alpha I don't know where else to look!

I persist because subjective assessments consistently point to

central SMR as important to train (and because I want to know what

it's like).

Rah

May 9, 2006

The SMR effect--releasing of muscle tone and relaxation of the body are the most

visible effects--seems to occur at different frequencies for different people.

Especially with children below the mid-teens it's common to find SMR frequencies

lower, and we can often use peak alpha frequency as explained on this list

several times previously to get a good starting point.

Best way to find SMR is to have a relatively observant friend or colleague slide

the frequency band down about half a hertz at a time (a minute or two at each

stop) and watch you for the desired effect.

Pete

>

> From: " deboRah " <wheelihan82@...>

> Date: 2006/05/09 Tue PM 07:35:50 EDT

>

> Subject: SMR / Do I have a " sweet spot? "

>

> Sometimes I think I hear discussion that leads me to conclude that

the SMR rhythm can be found within the alpha band. This comes from

the idea of stepping down until the correct spot is found.

If Central Alpha PF is 10-10.5 will SMR be found definitely above

that (meaning I don't have to keep going down looking for it)?

12-15 does not feel good, to put it mildly, so if SMR must be above

alpha I don't know where else to look!

I persist because subjective assessments consistently point to

central SMR as important to train (and because I want to know what

it's like).

Rah

May 9, 2006

I'm wondering if some adults need alpha PF trained up before they can benefit from SMR training.

Mark

SMR / Do I have a "sweet spot?"> > Sometimes I think I hear discussion that leads me to conclude that the SMR rhythm can be found within the alpha band. This comes from the idea of stepping down until the correct spot is found. If Central Alpha PF is 10-10.5 will SMR be found definitely above that (meaning I don't have to keep going down looking for it)?12-15 does not feel good, to put it mildly, so if SMR must be above alpha I don't know where else to look!I persist because subjective assessments consistently point to central SMR as important to train (and because I want to know what it's like).Rah

May 10, 2006

For what it's worth, my peak alpha is also 10.5, and my 'sweat spot

enended up being 10-12.9 (and believe me even the 1/2 mhz difference

between 10-13 and 10-12.9 was noticeable), and I have gotten great

benefit from this training. After literally hundreds of sessions

consisting of dozens of different targets, the one above is the one

that finally resolved my sleep problems, along as some other things I

was shooting for..

> >

> > Rah,

> > I have had the same experience as you with trying to train 12-15.

> My peak alpha is about 10 and 1/2. I never felt any sense of

> relaxation until I set the range at 9.5 to 13.5. Training 12 to 15

> just makes me irritable.

> > Kirk

>

May 10, 2006

Thanks to you too. I'll have to try it then ..

T

> For what it's worth, my peak alpha is also 10.5, and my 'sweat spot

> enended up being 10-12.9 (and believe me even the 1/2 mhz

difference

> between 10-13 and 10-12.9 was noticeable), and I have gotten great

> benefit from this training. After literally hundreds of sessions

> consisting of dozens of different targets, the one above is the one

> that finally resolved my sleep problems, along as some other things

I was shooting for..

May 10, 2006

Rah, I had forgot about your message, because I thought that one

possible reason that lowering the SMR frequency would help might be

that there might be tension localized at mid- and upper alpha.

So, after addressing this tension, or maybe SRR (for Sensory Relaxory

Rhythm), SMR would feel just right.

T

May 10, 2006

Do you mean simply training them rise at the same time or specific

ratio (I assume this might have indibidual variation)? What would you

use as inhibits?

I like your thoughts, for what it's worth : )

T

>

> I'm wondering if training alpha along WITH SMR as this range

suggests might be similar to the benefits of training A/T together.

That is, especially at certain locations, the alpha being the

" translator " facilitates the other Hz training? Just a thought...

>

> ~ A

> Do Something Useful

May 10, 2006

Alpha is a back-of-the-head thing. Often called by neurologists DPR (dominant

posterior rhythm), which occurs strongly when eyes are closed and attenuates

when they are opened.

SMR is a sensori-motor cortex thing. It occurs strongly when the body is deeply

relaxed and the client is profoundly " in " it, and it is trained with eyes open.

Two cars can share the same road without wrecking if they drive in different

lanes at different times.

Pete

>

> From: " venerablepillow " <tjo@...>

> Date: 2006/05/10 Wed PM 03:25:32 EDT

>

> Subject: Re: SMR / Do I have a " sweet spot? "

>

May 10, 2006

,

I get a lot of 11.5 to 12.5 Hz activity when I set the band to 9.5 to 13.5. (I watch the CSA when I train). I get almost nothing in the alpha range below this. So lets say for argument's sake that it's, on average, a bunch of 12Hz activity, and I feel really limp. Am I training alpha? or SMR? What's the difference? Why would it matter? -

I ask these questions not rhetorically.

Kirk

SMR / Do I have a "sweet spot?"Sometimes I think I hear discussion that leads me to conclude thatthe SMR rhythm can be found within the alpha band. This comes fromthe idea of stepping down until the correct spot is found.If Central Alpha PF is 10-10.5 will SMR be found definitely abovethat (meaning I don't have to keep going down looking for it)?12-15 does not feel good, to put it mildly, so if SMR must be abovealpha I don't know where else to look!I persist because subjective assessments consistently point tocentral SMR as important to train (and because I want to know whatit's like).Rah

May 11, 2006

Kirk,

Where are you training? If in the sensorimotor cortex,, then you are probably

getting SMR.

How are you training? If eyes open, then you are probably getting SMR.

Certainly the response sounds like it.

There are two alphas: low alpha (usually around 8-9.5 Hz or so far) and high

alpha, usually around 10-11.5). Both are more dominant in the back of the head

with eyes closed (though they can be trained elsewhere and can be learned with

eyes open as well. Low alpha is more like high theta, very relaxing and just

above the " twilight " state. High alpha is the zone state, mentally still,

present in the moment, the zone state.

SMR is alpha for the body.

So if you are getting the desired training effect, then I would argue that the

question may indeed be rhetorical. You are training, I assume, for the

effect--not for some philosophical reason.

Pete

>

> From: " Kirk Little " <KDLittle@...>

> Date: 2006/05/11 Thu AM 12:39:35 EDT

> < >

> Subject: Re: SMR / Do I have a " sweet spot? "

>

> ,

> I get a lot of 11.5 to 12.5 Hz activity when I set the band to 9.5 to 13.5. (I

watch the CSA when I train). I get almost nothing in the alpha range below this.

So lets say for argument's sake that it's, on average, a bunch of 12Hz activity,

and I feel really limp. Am I training alpha? or SMR? What's the difference?

Why would it matter? -

May 11, 2006

You are probably right that it's best to train with this setting,

because it achieves the desired state (relaxed focus).

However, considering that there is, AFAIK, research showing strict 12-

15 hertz to be important, it still leaves a lingering doubt in my mind

whether it might be possible (and beneficial) with training to move

the SMR to that range.

T

> So if you are getting the desired training effect, then I would

argue that the question may indeed be rhetorical. You are training, I

assume, for the effect--not for some philosophical reason.

May 11, 2006

What is the " importance " shown by whatever research you are referencing to

training at a strict 12-15 Hz? If this research, whatever it may be, is really

so motivating to you that you can't be satisfied with the results you started

training to achieve, then you should pursue it.

Maybe, however, it you actually train and get good alpha and SMR going in your

own brain, you'll find you stop worrying about what it " should " be and just be

happy with what it is. That's a pretty common alpha response.

Pete

>

> From: " venerablepillow " <tjo@...>

> Date: 2006/05/11 Thu AM 06:16:24 EDT

>

> Subject: Re: SMR / Do I have a " sweet spot? "

>

> You are probably right that it's best to train with this setting,

because it achieves the desired state (relaxed focus).

However, considering that there is, AFAIK, research showing strict 12-

15 hertz to be important, it still leaves a lingering doubt in my mind

whether it might be possible (and beneficial) with training to move

the SMR to that range

May 11, 2006

Ha ha...

Sorry for taking bandwidth on the list with this matter (note to self:

maybe I should have just kept it to myself...) but I'm also

investigating things for a larger audience than myself so I may quite

possibly pursue it any way.

T

>

> What is the " importance " shown by whatever research you are

referencing to training at a strict 12-15 Hz? If this research,

whatever it may be, is really so motivating to you that you can't be

satisfied with the results you started training to achieve, then you

should pursue it.

>

> Maybe, however, it you actually train and get good alpha and SMR

going in your own brain, you'll find you stop worrying about what it

" should " be and just be happy with what it is. That's a pretty common

alpha response.

May 11, 2006

I'm not trying to be argumentative here. Obviously, since I train all over the

place, I'm very interested in the larger audience as well. My question would

simply be, " if it works for you-- " it " here meaning " finding my individual SMR

frequency " --what would keep it from working for the larger audience?

Pete

>

> From: " venerablepillow " <tjo@...>

> Date: 2006/05/11 Thu AM 08:59:14 EDT

>

> Subject: Re: SMR / Do I have a " sweet spot? "

>

> Sorry for taking bandwidth on the list with this matter (note to self:

maybe I should have just kept it to myself...) but I'm also

investigating things for a larger audience than myself so I may quite

possibly pursue it any way.

T

May 11, 2006

T

I wouldn't worry too much about talking about anything here ( is that

another worry you have??? .... sorry, I'm just teasing you), because I've

always found this to be the most " liberal " site with regard to who can

speak, and what can be said.

It's been somewhat a puzzle to me how, in general, many folks in the

" science or technology " field search for " exactness " or " normals " , when I've

yet to come across information from our planet that offers such a thing. In

fact, the Heisenburg principle (which will probably be shown to have flaws

in the next 50 years or so :) , states very clearly that just the act of

attention has an impact on whatever kind of results are obtained. A good

example in NFB is that many authors/teachers caution against the trainer

being invested in the results of Alpha/Theta training for just that reason.

So, my guess is that it could apply to all other aspects of training, and

similarly, I'm sure is the that the amount of Tylenol you take for a

headache of the same intensity as mine, could be very different, although

the drug company usually gives us 500mg without much choice.

It's nice to have " rules " so that we all don't go bloody berserk but, seems

to me, some rules have to be flexible. Good question though, and great

answers .. oh, and PS .. my SMR is definitely below 12-15 Hz ..

Best of luck in your work

May 11, 2006

Dear Listfriends, IMHE, I've learned that when Dr. Sterman and/or Siegfred Othmer talk about SMR, they are talking about a "rythm" (sensory motor rhythm ) located on the central strip, that in their study cases were 12-15HZ average. That doesn't means that 12-15 Hz is SMR. The SMR of a person will be more related to the arousal of that person, e.g. if a person is overarousal there's a high probability that will respond very nicely to 12-15Hz and lower frecuencies reward on the central strip, including also the temporals. But if is the other way around, meaning that the person is underarousal, probably will respond better to higher frecuencies as 13-16Hz or even higher,like 14-17Hz or 15-18 Hz. Part of the Subjective assessment should be to determine the arousal level of the person. I've created a subjective sliding scale for that porpouse,

for all those who are interested in this scale you may contact me backchannel. Hope this comment help... Regards, JR Key <danielkey@...> wrote: TI wouldn't worry too much about talking about anything here ( is thatanother worry you have??? .... sorry, I'm just teasing you), because I'vealways found this to be the most "liberal" site with regard to who canspeak, and what can be said.It's been somewhat a puzzle to me how, in general, many folks in the"science or technology" field search for "exactness" or "normals", when I'veyet to come across information from our planet that offers such a thing. Infact, the Heisenburg principle (which will probably be shown to have flawsin the next 50

years or so :) , states very clearly that just the act ofattention has an impact on whatever kind of results are obtained. A goodexample in NFB is that many authors/teachers caution against the trainerbeing invested in the results of Alpha/Theta training for just that reason.So, my guess is that it could apply to all other aspects of training, andsimilarly, I'm sure is the that the amount of Tylenol you take for aheadache of the same intensity as mine, could be very different, althoughthe drug company usually gives us 500mg without much choice.It's nice to have "rules" so that we all don't go bloody berserk but, seemsto me, some rules have to be flexible. Good question though, and greatanswers .. oh, and PS .. my SMR is definitely below 12-15 Hz ..Best of luck in your work

Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Messenger with Voice.

May 11, 2006

You do sound like you know what you're saying. So it was helpful.

T

>

> Dear Listfriends,

>

> IMHE, I've learned that when Dr. Sterman and/or Siegfred Othmer

talk about SMR, they are talking about a " rythm " (sensory motor rhythm

) located on the central strip, that in their study cases were 12-

15HZ average. That doesn't means that 12-15 Hz is SMR.

>

> The SMR of a person will be more related to the arousal of that

person, e.g. if a person is overarousal there's a high probability

that will respond very nicely to 12-15Hz and lower frecuencies reward

on the central strip, including also the temporals. But if is the

other way around, meaning that the person is underarousal, probably

will respond better to higher frecuencies as 13-16Hz or even higher,

like 14-17Hz or 15-18 Hz.

May 11, 2006

Dear :

I suspect I'm not the only person on the list who would like to see your subjective sliding scale for arousal (and your message didn't contain an e-mail address to back channel). Can you post it with the list? thanks.