Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 , Too much alpha can be as much a problem as too little, especially if it doesn't block. I would wonder about drug use or drinking, especially if it is also high in the frontals, which you didn't mention. The effect of the high alpha can be kind of like wrapping the brain in cotton batting, so the client doesn't experience much, and cognitively it's like shifting into auto-pilot when he should be landing the plane. Why the brain has chosen this pattern is an interesting question--sometimes a way of protecting against stressful events. Certainly with that much alpha, especially if it stays high with eyes open, you could very well be looking at alpha " bleeding into " SMR, so you aren't really seeing SMR. The other question I always ask when looking at the assessment of someone with a frequency group way out of line like this is, " what's NOT there? " Is it beta? Theta? Pete > > From: " St. Clair, MSW " <mastclair@...> > Date: 2005/12/16 Fri PM 04:25:22 EST > < > > Subject: High SMR > > Here's something I've never seen before: on the TLC assess: C4 SMR 18%, amplitude is 10 microvolts. The 12-15hz is just as high as the 10-12hz (10u), and the 8-10hz is much higher EC (15u). Happens at both C3 and C4. Elsewhere the 10-12hz is really out of range (38u at Oz....40u at O2.) But the 12-15hz at those locations is more even with everything else (5-6u) Could the 12-15hz be bleed -over from the 10-12hz in overdrive?? It only happens at the C sites. Kid's got major behavioral problems, and I would have suspected low SMR...but it looks like I'll be inhbiting Alpha 10-12hz. Should I consider inhibiting 12-15hz at C3 and C4? He's 14yo, so I kept the TLC settings at the default range for the bandwidths. haven't done the medication/street drug assessment yet. Thanks for your help... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 " What's NOT there " Oooo...so glad you asked!! I was so blinded by the high levels of Alpha that I hadn't looked... What's not there is Theta in Parietals and Occipitals. Thanks!!! I've got a good place to start! His mom is delighted that I found some things " way out of whack " : something she's known for years... High SMR >> >> Here's something I've never seen before: > on the TLC assess: C4 SMR 18%, amplitude is 10 microvolts. > The 12-15hz is just as high as the 10-12hz (10u), and the 8-10hz is much > higher EC (15u). Happens at both C3 and C4. > > Elsewhere the 10-12hz is really out of range (38u at Oz....40u at O2.) But > the 12-15hz at those locations is more even with everything else (5-6u) > > Could the 12-15hz be bleed -over from the 10-12hz in overdrive?? It only > happens at the C sites. > > Kid's got major behavioral problems, and I would have suspected low > SMR...but it looks like I'll be inhbiting Alpha 10-12hz. Should I consider > inhibiting 12-15hz at C3 and C4? > > He's 14yo, so I kept the TLC settings at the default range for the > bandwidths. > haven't done the medication/street drug assessment yet. > Thanks for your help... > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2005 Report Share Posted December 17, 2005 Pete and/or , Can you explain how we can tell the difference between a frequency " bleeding " into the next frequency? Thanks, --------- High SMR > > > > Here's something I've never seen before: > on the TLC assess: C4 SMR 18%, amplitude is 10 microvolts. > The 12-15hz is just as high as the 10-12hz (10u), and the 8-10hz is much > higher EC (15u). Happens at both C3 and C4. > > Elsewhere the 10-12hz is really out of range (38u at Oz....40u at O2.) But > the 12-15hz at those locations is more even with everything else (5-6u) > > Could the 12-15hz be bleed -over from the 10-12hz in overdrive?? It only > happens at the C sites. > > Kid's got major behavioral problems, and I would have suspected low > SMR...but it looks like I'll be inhbiting Alpha 10-12hz. Should I consider > inhibiting 12-15hz at C3 and C4? > > He's 14yo, so I kept the TLC settings at the default range for the > bandwidths. > haven't done the medication/street drug assessment yet. > Thanks for your help... > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 HI mary! In the absence of Pete's answer, I'll take a stab, as I understand it... If there are alot of cells firing at 10-12hz, some of the neighbor cells are going to be firing at close to that, say 12-15hz. I'm guessing that it might have to do with the power of the thalamus signal. I'm sure Pete can be more eloquent and come up with his great metaphors! High SMR >> > >> > Here's something I've never seen before: >> on the TLC assess: C4 SMR 18%, amplitude is 10 microvolts. >> The 12-15hz is just as high as the 10-12hz (10u), and the 8-10hz is much >> higher EC (15u). Happens at both C3 and C4. >> >> Elsewhere the 10-12hz is really out of range (38u at Oz....40u at O2.) >> But >> the 12-15hz at those locations is more even with everything else (5-6u) >> >> Could the 12-15hz be bleed -over from the 10-12hz in overdrive?? It only >> happens at the C sites. >> >> Kid's got major behavioral problems, and I would have suspected low >> SMR...but it looks like I'll be inhbiting Alpha 10-12hz. Should I >> consider >> inhibiting 12-15hz at C3 and C4? >> >> He's 14yo, so I kept the TLC settings at the default range for the >> bandwidths. >> haven't done the medication/street drug assessment yet. >> Thanks for your help... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 HI , Nice to hear from you! Thanks for responding. How do we define " a lot" of cells firing. Is it a percentage of the EEG? If so, what might those percentages be for the different frequency bands? Many thanks. --Warmly, This email and any attachments may contain confidential information and it is intended for the addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, you should destroy this message and notify the sender by reply email. If you are not the addressee, any disclosure, reproduction or transmission of this email is strictly prohibited. --------- High SMR > >> > > >> > Here's something I've never seen before: > >> on the TLC assess: C4 SMR 18%, amplitude is 10 microvolts. > >> The 12-15hz is just as high as the 10-12hz (10u), and the 8-10hz is much > >> higher EC (15u). Happens at both C3 and C4. > >> > >> Elsewhere the 10-12hz is really out of range (38u at Oz....40u at O2.) > >> But > >> the 12-15hz at those locations is more even with everything else (5-6u) > >> > >> Could the 12-15hz be bleed -over from the 10-12hz in overdrive?? It only > >> happens at the C sites. > >> > >> Kid's got major behavioral problems, and I would have suspected low > >> SMR...but it looks like I'll be inhbiting Alpha 10-12hz. Should I > >> consider > >> inhibiting 12-15hz at C3 and C4? > >> > >> He's 14yo, so I kept the TLC settings at the default range for the > >> bandwidths. > >> haven't done the medication/street drug assessment yet. > >> Thanks for your help... > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Well, in the assessment I was asking about, the 10-12hz was 47u at O2, which was 52% of the EEG at that site. The histogram towers were WAY above the rest. M High SMR > >> > > >> > Here's something I've never seen before: > >> on the TLC assess: C4 SMR 18%, amplitude is 10 microvolts. > >> The 12-15hz is just as high as the 10-12hz (10u), and the 8-10hz is much > >> higher EC (15u). Happens at both C3 and C4. > >> > >> Elsewhere the 10-12hz is really out of range (38u at Oz....40u at O2.) > >> But > >> the 12-15hz at those locations is more even with everything else (5-6u) > >> > >> Could the 12-15hz be bleed -over from the 10-12hz in overdrive?? It only > >> happens at the C sites. > >> > >> Kid's got major behavioral problems, and I would have suspected low > >> SMR...but it looks like I'll be inhbiting Alpha 10-12hz. Should I > >> consider > >> inhibiting 12-15hz at C3 and C4? > >> > >> He's 14yo, so I kept the TLC settings at the default range for the > >> bandwidths. > >> haven't done the medication/street drug assessment! yet. > >> Thanks for your help... > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Hi s~ If the peak is higher then so is the range, most likely. Instead of the alpha being contained at 8-12, it may be running 9-13 which would then be running into the SMR and so the SMR % would show up higher. So what you are seeing as high %s in the SMR column is also partly Alpha. ~ High SMR > >> > > >> > Here's something I've never seen before: > >> on the TLC assess: C4 SMR 18%, amplitude is 10 microvolts. > >> The 12-15hz is just as high as the 10-12hz (10u), and the 8-10hz is much > >> higher EC (15u). Happens at both C3 and C4. > >> > >> Elsewhere the 10-12hz is really out of range (38u at Oz....40u at O2.) > >> But > >> the 12-15hz at those locations is more even with everything else (5-6u) > >> > >> Could the 12-15hz be bleed -over from the 10-12hz in overdrive?? It only > >> happens at the C sites. > >> > >> Kid's got major behavioral problems, and I would have suspected low > >> SMR...but it looks like I'll be inhbiting Alpha 10-12hz. Should I > >> consider > >> inhibiting 12-15hz at C3 and C4? > >> > >> He's 14yo, so I kept the TLC settings at the default range for the > >> bandwidths. > >> haven't done the medication/street drug assessment! yet. > >> Thanks for your help... > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2005 Report Share Posted December 18, 2005 Hi and ! This is most probable. Well is, earlier to make measurement PAF. In presences high PAF( at SMR=12-15 Hz), rights sides spectrum band ALPHA can introduce upraised values SMR. If simultaneously, in frontal area, SMR is also higher than normally, this is result high PAF. Please, measure PAF in Oz or Pz, and you will have answer. To jest najbardziej prawdopodobne.Dobrze jest, wcześniej wykonać pomiar PAF. W obecnosci wyysokiego PAF(przy ustawieniu SMR=12-15 Hz), prawa stron widma pasma ALFA może wprowadzić zawyżone wartości SMR . Jeśli równolegle, w obszarze czołowym,SMR jest także wyższy niż normalnie, to jest wynik wysokiego PAF. Proszę , zmierz PAF w Oz lub Pz, a będziesz miała odpowiedź. Jan OC; PAF=9.77 Hz High SMR > >> > > >> > Here's something I've never seen before: > >> on the TLC assess: C4 SMR 18%, amplitude is 10 microvolts. > >> The 12-15hz is just as high as the 10-12hz (10u), and the 8-10hz is much > >> higher EC (15u). Happens at both C3 and C4. > >> > >> Elsewhere the 10-12hz is really out of range (38u at Oz....40u at O2.) > >> But > >> the 12-15hz at those locations is more even with everything else (5-6u) > >> > >> Could the 12-15hz be bleed -over from the 10-12hz in overdrive?? It only > >> happens at the C sites. > >> > >> Kid's got major behavioral problems, and I would have suspected low > >> SMR...but it looks like I'll be inhbiting Alpha 10-12hz. Should I > >> consider > >> inhibiting 12-15hz at C3 and C4? > >> > >> He's 14yo, so I kept the TLC settings at the default range for the > >> bandwidths. > >> haven't done the medication/street drug assessment! yet. > >> Thanks for your help... > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2005 Report Share Posted December 19, 2005 The responses you've gotten are pretty much on target. One of the reasons we don't train SMR with eyes closed is simply that Alpha activity seems to cause activity in the 12-15Hz band to rise as well. Certainly if peak frequency in alpha (PAF) is up in the 11-12 range, it's very likely that what appears to be SMR may actually be alpha. It terms of whether you can actually " tell " that this is what is happening or not, I'm of a more practical bent there: try training it and see what happens. There is an SMR training response, as you know, a calming, quieting, kind of slumping in the chair, loss of muscle tone. In folks who are just producing a lot of eyes-open alpha, you don't usually see that. Pete > > From: mtlindsey@... > Date: 2005/12/17 Sat PM 06:25:11 EST > > Subject: Re: High SMR > > Can you explain how we can tell the difference between a frequency " bleeding " into the next frequency? Thanks, Van Deusen http://www.brain-trainer.com 16246 SW 92nd Ave, Miami, FL 33157 305/251-0337 or (cellular) 305/321-1595 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 > > The responses you've gotten are pretty much on target. One of the reasons we don't train SMR with eyes closed is simply that Alpha activity seems to cause activity in the 12-15Hz band to rise as well. Certainly if peak frequency in alpha (PAF) is up in the 11-12 range, it's very likely that what appears to be SMR may actually be alpha. So this explains why yesterday when training my usual ADD thing and got these microdreams I sometimes get, I noticed whenever I woke up, that my amplitude had risen about 50%. Tommi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 I've had several people with high % SMR (12-13), PAFs of 10-11 and low alpha and lowish alpha coherence. Symptoms call for C4 SMR training. In the older person SMR amplitude is low but % is high as the slow waves are low and Beta2 and Beta3 are high. In a 12 y.o. slow waves are higher but all betas are high also. Tried SMR on the 12 y.o.....definitely did not get that "SMR training response", but as he has a MU alpha problem....discovered during that session....didn't want to lower the frequency any lower. Working at P3 and P4 has helped. Any other way to get at that SMR? Rosemary Re: High SMR> > Can you explain how we can tell the difference between a frequency "bleeding" into the next frequency? Thanks, Van Deusenhttp://www.brain-trainer.com16246 SW 92nd Ave, Miami, FL 33157305/251-0337 or (cellular) 305/321-1595 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 Rosemary Although I’ve never tested it much, I understand ( I think) the concept of MU blocking with body movement etc., but could you tell me a little more about your 12-yr-old, and what did you mean by “tried SMR” ( I think many of us have different ideas about SMR training). Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 , It was C4-A2-G montage with inhibits of 2-8 and 15-36, rewarding 12-15 then 11-14. Report was: hyperactivity increased, focus decreased. No PTSD or RAD, just severe ADHD and temper problems (possible prenatal drug and alcohol exposure). He had a PET scan showing very slow frontal and parietal lobes. TLC assessment showed lots of variability going on in parietal areas. The parietal work has eliminated the temper problems and he now reads for pleasure and does his school work instead of blowing it off. Will be gently starting on the frontals after the holiday. His Amen Evaluation showed ADHD, limbic, temporal and Ring of Fire. After 6 sessions it only shows Inattentive-hyperactive...all from parietal work. Does this help? Rosemary PS Interesting occurrence: Had another fellow in today...19 yo severe hyperactivity, etc. Was watching his alpha on spectrum analyzer at C4 spiking over and over (eyes open) and so I had him watch my fingers wiggle...the alpha flattened and stayed flat. When I stopped wiggling fingers the alpha began spiking again. That was my excitement for today! Guess his mirror neurons are working well. ;-) RE: Re: High SMR Rosemary Although I’ve never tested it much, I understand ( I think) the concept of MU blocking with body movement etc., but could you tell me a little more about your 12-yr-old, and what did you mean by “tried SMR” ( I think many of us have different ideas about SMR training). Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Hi Rosemary, I'm interested in anything that produces the results you mentioned (reads for pleasure and does his schoolwork). You said you trained at the pareitals. Would you mind telling us what showed on the assessment that led you to the protocol you uses and what exactly was it. Thanks so much, jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Hey Rosemary THANKS !! .. makes perfect sense actually… and .. btw … if there was a chance of prenatal drug and alcohol exposure, then to my mind there is at the possibility of FAS, and definitely RAD (reference Dan Siegel/Alan Schore, that AD starts at least in the third trimester, and now the thought of some of those guys who use terms I have to look up in the dictionary that ALL ADhD is really attachment stuff). Since parietals are very present in the beginning it would make sense that calming them would be an option. Trust me, from now on when that bloody alpha that doesn’t block shows it’s face, I’ll be more attentive to wiggling fingers. Thanks so much for the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 Jane, I'll give you more details next week when I'm in the some place as his chart. All I can remember is extreme variability in amplitudes...and that night he was more hyper than usual and the next day woke up a new person. Mom insists he is not RAD...however he has similar symptoms and she said he now comes up to her and hugs her which is something he had not done before. Happy Holidays Rosemary Re: High SMR Hi Rosemary,I'm interested in anything that produces the results you mentioned(reads for pleasure and does his schoolwork). You said you trained atthe pareitals. Would you mind telling us what showed on the assessmentthat led you to the protocol you uses and what exactly was it.Thanks so much,jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 , Thanks for your info on third trimester RAD. He was adopted at birth and "hugged and carried all the time" according to mom...but symptoms were very RAD-like. If you have to look up Siegel and Shore to understand them...................does anyone have a Cliff Notes versions for me ;-) Happy Holidays Rosemary RE: Re: High SMR Hey Rosemary THANKS !! .. makes perfect sense actually… and .. btw … if there was a chance of prenatal drug and alcohol exposure, then to my mind there is at the possibility of FAS, and definitely RAD (reference Dan Siegel/Alan Schore, that AD starts at least in the third trimester, and now the thought of some of those guys who use terms I have to look up in the dictionary that ALL ADhD is really attachment stuff). Since parietals are very present in the beginning it would make sense that calming them would be an option. Trust me, from now on when that bloody alpha that doesn’t block shows it’s face, I’ll be more attentive to wiggling fingers. Thanks so much for the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2006 Report Share Posted January 1, 2006 Jane, Here is more info. At P3P4: T/B not high (mainly because betas were so high), however it did not decrease much eyes open. Beta amplitudes were reversed back > front. Percents not reversed however alpha amplitude was very high which would account for this. A/T high E Closed and increases E Open. Variability very high 8-37 Hz, especially high at 10-12 Hz EC. Alpha coherence very low. (30 then 34 on recheck.) As his C4 SMR EO was 11.2 % and alpha did not show as excessively high there in assessment, didn't want to start there. We did P3-A1-G-P4-A2 inhibiting 2-14 and 15-37 Eyes Closed 20 minutes. Later I put a 9-12 reward in at P4 to see if that would increase the effect but it did not. There was such a difference after the first session that even the boy noticed it and wanted it to happen that way again. I have done this protocol with other kids with similar problems and assessments and it has worked well...although for one child it stopped working after a few months. Now doing alpha coherence up protocol and testing other protocols to work on the hyperactivity: Mom said he came and sat next to her on the couch the other night, lifted her arm over his shoulders and cuddled up to her...this was the first time they had ever done that. Hope this helps. Rosemary Re: High SMR Hi Rosemary,I'm interested in anything that produces the results you mentioned(reads for pleasure and does his schoolwork). You said you trained atthe pareitals. Would you mind telling us what showed on the assessmentthat led you to the protocol you uses and what exactly was it.Thanks so much,jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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