Re: Vitamin C and Osteoarthritis

September 23, 2006

Hi Celeste

That's interesting. I read the article you referenced just now and

related it to your experience. They do seem to correlate, however, I

have a potentially different interpretation. Maybe neither you nor

the Guinea Pigs were getting enough vitamin C.

I was recently at a lecture with Dr. Cathcart wherein he

stated he had cured osteoarthritis in patients with high dose vitamin

C. However the doses he used were much higher than in the study or

what you were taking. He was using doses of between 50 and 100 gm

per day. I am not recommending anything, but he insisted that he

measured growth in cartilage and that the dose had to be very high at

least compared to that study and to what you were taking. As you

probably know, in other mammals that do produce vitamin C in the

liver, the amount produced would be equivalent to a minimum of about

10-15 grams per day in a human. It may be that the study levels were

too low to kick in the increased cartilage growth and that they were

high enough to increase acidity in the blood sufficient to exacerbate

irritation or some similar mechanism.

BTW, did you see the post Jim made on the use of high dose MSM

+ Glucosamine? He was talking about 100 to 200 grams of MSM per

day. It cured his knee.

Here is the excerpt from that post:

" When I turned 50, I had to be fitted for a steel knee brace. After

doing a protocol of huge amounts of MSM (1/2 cup/day?) and the

Organic Sulfates.

I took most of what is listed below, at some point, but in capsule

quantities. When I reached the correct amount, I threw away the brace

and today I play

tennis, totally pain free, at 64. A great complement to this success

was that every other pain site cleared up. I had lived with

congenital arthritis

pain in the hip from as early as I could remember and it no longer

exists either.

This stuff really works! "

- Post by Jim 8/8/2006

At 05:56 PM 9/22/2006, you wrote:

>Ever since my knee surgery (about 5 years ago) I had been taking 1000

>mg of Vitamin C daily. I was doing this because I had read that

>Vitamin C had been found to alleviate osteoarthritis. However, over

>the past few months the pain in my knee had grown increasingly worse.

>I began to be concerned that I might need knee surgery again. Last

>week I ran out of my Vitamin C and was too busy to get to the store to

>buy more. Interestingly enough, by the weekend my knee pain had

>decreased quite noticeably. So I went to Google and found

><http://www.webmd.com/content/article/88/99800.htm>http://www.webmd.com/content\

/article/88/99800.htm

>and was amazed. It's

>been a week now since I've taken any Vitamin C and my knee pain has

>continued to decrease. So if you have osteoarthritis (particularly in

>the knee) you will probably want to limit your long-term Vitamin C

>intake to 200 mg daily.

>

>Best regards,

>Celeste

>

September 23, 2006

I guess most on this list would know that vitamin C is essential to

the formation of cartilage and bone, but it's worth repeating.

200 mg of vitamin C will ensure deficiency, but I probably wouldn't

have thought to go that high either (or use that much MSM).

Thanks for jumping in, .

Duncan

>

> >Ever since my knee surgery (about 5 years ago) I had been taking

1000

> >mg of Vitamin C daily. I was doing this because I had read that

> >Vitamin C had been found to alleviate osteoarthritis. However, over

> >the past few months the pain in my knee had grown increasingly

worse.

> >I began to be concerned that I might need knee surgery again. Last

> >week I ran out of my Vitamin C and was too busy to get to the

store to

> >buy more. Interestingly enough, by the weekend my knee pain had

> >decreased quite noticeably. So I went to Google and found

>

><http://www.webmd.com/content/article/88/99800.htm>http://www.webmd.c

om/content/article/88/99800.htm

> >and was amazed. It's

> >been a week now since I've taken any Vitamin C and my knee pain has

> >continued to decrease. So if you have osteoarthritis (particularly

in

> >the knee) you will probably want to limit your long-term Vitamin C

> >intake to 200 mg daily.

> >

> >Best regards,

> >Celeste

> >

>

September 23, 2006

Yikes! There's no way I'm going to try taking higher doses of Vitamin

C. Any dose that I try taking now causes stomach and intestinal

irriation for me. I'm laying off completely (and continuing to be

virtually pain-free). Perhaps in a while I will try a very low daily

dose of Vitamin C (just to prevent deficiency).

Best regards,

Celeste

Brown wrote:

> That's interesting. I read the article you referenced just now and

> related it to your experience. They do seem to correlate, however, I

> have a potentially different interpretation. Maybe neither you nor

> the Guinea Pigs were getting enough vitamin C.

September 23, 2006

I don't know who Dr. Cathcart is so I would not know what value his

opinions might have. My arthritis did not come from a syndrome,

though. It came from having a knee injury.

My stomach started bothering me when I started cutting carbs, so I've

gradually been getting back to a better carb ratio in my diet. I've

been including inulin in my diet daily for several months now. I've

also done some probiotic regimes. In addition I eat homemade yogurt

daily and also have Dannon's Activia yogurt about 4 times a week.

I might try the EsterC or EmergenC. I've used EmergenC before, but not

as a long-term supplement.

Best regards,

Celeste

Brown wrote:

> According to Dr. Cathcart, if you get stomach and intestinal

> irritation from doses under 10 gm per day, something is wrong with

> your stomach as Vitamin C has a ph of 3.5 ahd hydrochloric acid in

> the stomach has a ph of 1, much stronger acid. This may very well be

> a part of the syndrome that has created the arthritis.

>

> Of course EsterC and EmergenC and other C chelates do not create

> these problems in imbalanced digestive tracts. You may want to try

> one of these. I take about 10 gm per day or more (depending on need)

> with a combination of powdered ascorbic acid, EsterC and EmergenC. I

> find that pure C tablets give me flatulence, but the liquid C does not.

>

> You may need to balance your digestive tract. You might want to

> check the probiotic and prebiotic (Inulin) suggestions in recent

> posts by Duncan Crow and me.

September 23, 2006

A short term supplement regenerated 18 of 22 peoples' cartilage; the

other four got their money back from the Integris Corporation. The

clients did a three-month super starter pack of Everlasting and

Everlasting Support. One, a double-knee replacement candidiate who

got her osteo though knee injury like you and had had four operations

to remove spicules gave her wheelchair back to the Red Cross and she

and a couple of others stored their knee braces; after 7 years they

have't had to repeat the program.

Duncan

cetylmyristoleate

> > According to Dr. Cathcart, if you get stomach and intestinal

> > irritation from doses under 10 gm per day, something is wrong

with

> > your stomach as Vitamin C has a ph of 3.5 ahd hydrochloric acid

in

> > the stomach has a ph of 1, much stronger acid. This may very

well be

> > a part of the syndrome that has created the arthritis.

> >

> > Of course EsterC and EmergenC and other C chelates do not create

> > these problems in imbalanced digestive tracts. You may want to

try

> > one of these. I take about 10 gm per day or more (depending on

need)

> > with a combination of powdered ascorbic acid, EsterC and

EmergenC. I

> > find that pure C tablets give me flatulence, but the liquid C

does not.

> >

> > You may need to balance your digestive tract. You might want to

> > check the probiotic and prebiotic (Inulin) suggestions in recent

> > posts by Duncan Crow and me.

>

September 24, 2006

Hi Celeste,

I started to experience knee pain from old sports injuries about 5 years

ago. I started taking 5 grams of glucosamine daily (that's right, 5000

mg. You have to take enough). Pain went away, didn't return, and I can

still keep up with the 18 year olds (and sometimes pass 'em!).

Best,

Dave

a1thighmaster wrote:

>

> Ever since my knee surgery (about 5 years ago) I had been taking 1000

> mg of Vitamin C daily. I was doing this because I had read that

> Vitamin C had been found to alleviate osteoarthritis. However, over

> the past few months the pain in my knee had grown increasingly worse.

> I began to be concerned that I might need knee surgery again. Last

> week I ran out of my Vitamin C and was too busy to get to the store to

> buy more. Interestingly enough, by the weekend my knee pain had

> decreased quite noticeably. So I went to Google and found

> http://www.webmd.com/content/article/88/99800.htm

> <http://www.webmd.com/content/article/88/99800.htm> and was amazed. It's

> been a week now since I've taken any Vitamin C and my knee pain has

> continued to decrease. So if you have osteoarthritis (particularly in

> the knee) you will probably want to limit your long-term Vitamin C

> intake to 200 mg daily.

>

> Best regards,

> Celeste

>

--

This is your brain on politics:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060131092225.htm

Yep! You've been an annoying zombie all these years.

September 24, 2006

Hi Dave:

And 5 gm is still a lot less than Jim was taking (1/2 cup =

about 150 gm per day). I'm at about 5 gm of MSM and 5 gm Glucosamine

for my neck and it is getting better now, but I think I need a little

more. All my other joints feel great and my hair is growing so

fast, I have to get a haircut every 2 weeks. Note that I posed a

bulk source previously. BTW MSM and Glucosamine both have neutral

taste and are easy to mix in food or take directly.

At 03:51 PM 9/24/2006, you wrote:

>Hi Celeste,

>

>I started to experience knee pain from old sports injuries about 5 years

>ago. I started taking 5 grams of glucosamine daily (that's right, 5000

>mg. You have to take enough). Pain went away, didn't return, and I can

>still keep up with the 18 year olds (and sometimes pass 'em!).

>

>Best,

>

>Dave

>

>a1thighmaster wrote:

> >

> > Ever since my knee surgery (about 5 years ago) I had been taking 1000

> > mg of Vitamin C daily. I was doing this because I had read that

> > Vitamin C had been found to alleviate osteoarthritis. However, over

> > the past few months the pain in my knee had grown increasingly worse.

> > I began to be concerned that I might need knee surgery again. Last

> > week I ran out of my Vitamin C and was too busy to get to the store to

> > buy more. Interestingly enough, by the weekend my knee pain had

> > decreased quite noticeably. So I went to Google and found

> >

>

<http://www.webmd.com/content/article/88/99800.htm>http://www.webmd.com/content/\

article/88/99800.htm

>

> > <http://www.webmd.com/content/article/88/99800.htm> and was amazed. It's

> > been a week now since I've taken any Vitamin C and my knee pain has

> > continued to decrease. So if you have osteoarthritis (particularly in

> > the knee) you will probably want to limit your long-term Vitamin C

> > intake to 200 mg daily.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Celeste

> >

>

>--

>This is your brain on politics:

>

><http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060131092225.htm>http://www.scien\

cedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060131092225.htm

>

>Yep! You've been an annoying zombie all these years.

>

September 25, 2006

:

I am glad that the protocol is working for you. You know, I actually

have gotten to enjoy the taste of MSM. It kind of wakes you up. The

fast hair cut/ finger nail growth is interesting, but that is why

women always took the Knox Gelatin (forms of the same thing). I have

about worn out my toe nail clippers. I have to cut them about once a

week. That would also explain part of the reason why many old people

often have such bad finger nails and skin. They are not absorbing the

organic sulfates anymore. Now that my joints are in order, I have

found that my maintenance level of around three grams/ day generally

works. However, I never use any pain pills, so if I ever feel the

slightest pain, I double the dose immediately. I have also found that

krill oil helps... especially if my neck is sore from not moving around

& stretching enough. I play tennis at least once a week and if I hurt a

joint, I have found that I heal much more quickly than I can ever

recall. Also, stretching exercises help a lot to keep the fluids

moving and aid in delivery. I exercise about a 1/2 hour every morning

and try to stretch as much as possible during work.

I wish that I had found this out thirty years ago. Back in the days of

drawing boards, neck pain was considered a part of architect's jobs.

I was issued a neck brace by Harvard Health Center in Boston in the

early 80's and I loaned it out to fellow workers on a regular basis.

Here, almost thirty years later, I am far more comfortable all over

than I was then. We have to be thankful for the web for this wonderful

flow of wellness information that we now have. It has changed my life.

Cheers, Jim

> Hi Dave:

>

> And 5 gm is still a lot less than Jim was taking (1/2 cup =

> about 150 gm per day). I'm at about 5 gm of MSM and 5 gm Glucosamine

> for my neck and it is getting better now, but I think I need a little

> more. All my other joints feel great and my hair is growing so

> fast, I have to get a haircut every 2 weeks. Note that I posed a

> bulk source previously. BTW MSM and Glucosamine both have neutral

> taste and are easy to mix in food or take directly.

>

> At 03:51 PM 9/24/2006, you wrote:

>

> >Hi Celeste,

> >

> >I started to experience knee pain from old sports injuries about 5 years

> >ago. I started taking 5 grams of glucosamine daily (that's right, 5000

> >mg. You have to take enough). Pain went away, didn't return, and I can

> >still keep up with the 18 year olds (and sometimes pass 'em!).

> >

> >Best,

> >

> >Dave

> >

> >a1thighmaster wrote:

> > >

> > > Ever since my knee surgery (about 5 years ago) I had been taking 1000

> > > mg of Vitamin C daily. I was doing this because I had read that

> > > Vitamin C had been found to alleviate osteoarthritis. However, over

> > > the past few months the pain in my knee had grown increasingly worse.

> > > I began to be concerned that I might need knee surgery again. Last

> > > week I ran out of my Vitamin C and was too busy to get to the store to

> > > buy more. Interestingly enough, by the weekend my knee pain had

> > > decreased quite noticeably. So I went to Google and found

> > >

> > <http://www.webmd.com/content/article/88/99800.htm

>

<http://www.webmd.com/content/article/88/99800.htm>>http://www.webmd.com/content\

/article/88/99800.htm

> <http://www.webmd.com/content/article/88/99800.htm>

> >

> > > <http://www.webmd.com/content/article/88/99800.htm

> <http://www.webmd.com/content/article/88/99800.htm>> and was amazed. It's

> > > been a week now since I've taken any Vitamin C and my knee pain has

> > > continued to decrease. So if you have osteoarthritis (particularly in

> > > the knee) you will probably want to limit your long-term Vitamin C

> > > intake to 200 mg daily.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Celeste

> > >

> >

> >--

> >This is your brain on politics:

> >

> ><http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060131092225.htm

>

<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060131092225.htm>>http://www.scien\

cedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060131092225.htm

> <http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060131092225.htm>

> >

> >Yep! You've been an annoying zombie all these years.

> >

September 25, 2006

You might also try taking gelatin with it, so that you have adequate

material to draw upon for joint regeneration. KNOX is a good brand, or

just eat Jello. You know you have room for it.