Squats without a belt

[Guest guest]

Kirby wrote:

<My experience is that the belt kinda interferes with breathing and form

although I can forsee wanting a belt for weights are above the

3 sets-of-6 threshold.>

Could it be possible that you are using a belt that is too wide for you? It

shouldn't really affect your form or breathing, assuming you are not taking

a large breath prior to each repetition. Maybe experimenting with a

narrower belt might help?

o Himeno <ehimeno@...> wrote:

> ...I experienced that the trunk

> parts of my body ( abdominal and lower back ) were strengthened by no belt

> exercise. Instead of belts, as the trunk tried to keep heavy weights,

> inner muscles to support postures seemed to be built up.

That is an interesting finding... and I'd generally agree since I don't lift

with a belt either. But being an ex-researcher I knew I needed an objective

point of view. What I found might prove interesting to this discussion:

Miyamoto et al. (1999). [Clin. Biomech 14:79-87] found that rectus abdominis

(RA) activity (and IAP) was significantly higher when wearing a belt than

not wearing a belt during an isometric deadlift lift perfromed at knee

height (this is not new information, several other studies have shown

similar results with various other exercises, especially squats - for

example, see McGill et al., 1990. Ergonomics 33: 147-160). They did not

find similar changes for either external oblique or erector spinae muscles.

They explained that it the increased activity of RA is likely caused when

the abdominal wall cannot protrude anteriorly as a result of the belt. As a

result, it allows one to contract the RA more intensely than without the

belt. So could it be possible that the belt may actually benefit as a

training aid for abdominal strengthening?

Also, they suggested that on the basis of a survey they published in Records

of Tokai Sports Injuries (1995. 13:36-39), the majority of Weightlifters

perceived enhanced stability when using belts and that the majority also rep

orted that " it requires experience to get a positive result from wearing

belts to perform lifts. " As I do not have this reference, I do not know

whay they meant by " positive result " , but I'm assuming they are referring to

a perception of enhanced stability.

Lander et al. (1992). [MSSE 24(5):603-609] found the following results in

experienced individuals wearing belts during the squat exercise at 70%, 80%,

and 90% of 8RM:

a) Repetitions were generally performed faster when when wearing a belt,

without any differences in squatting technique,

Subjects used greater hip and knee extensor forces with a weight belt

than without. Higher biceps femoris activity was believed to be a result of

a reaction to a stretch imposed by the knee extensors,

c) Knee extensor activity was higher when using a belt than without,

d) Not a result, but a quote from their discussion: " It is possible that

performing more than 8 repetitions and/or performing to exhaustion may yield

different results. Even in this case the use of a weight-belt could only

help the situation. "

So, it could be possible that the belt is in fact capable of further

improving trunk and leg strength? I wouldn't claim the above studies should

be considered gospel, but in light of the results presented, the recent hype

over belt (over)usage doesn't seem to hold much weight.

Over to you,

Gray, M.Sc., C.S.C.S., C.K.

firstline@...

Toronto, Canada

[Guest guest]

" Rosemary Wedderburn " <CookieMagic@...> wrote:

<For those of you who want to wean yourself off a lifting belt, there is an

excellent and very detailed article up on www.testosterone.net by Chek

describing exactly how to go about doing this. This was part of a series, all

of which was very interesting. 's methods are not endorsed by all, but I

thought the instructions about how to get away from a belt were very

sensible, cautious and easy to understand and follow.>

***You are stating this very mildly. As one of those who vociferously

questioned Chek's opinions on the basis of peer-reviewed research and

clinical evidence, I have to iterate that what he wrote is entirely a matter

of his personal opinion, sometimes guided by research carried out on the

already injured or among manual labourers in a work setting which has little

in common with the Weightlifting, Powerlifting or weight training settings.

All of us requested Chek to supply relevant and definitive references to

support his beliefs and methods, but none was forthcoming.

I wrote a very extensive review of all of that series of three Chek articles

and, instead of responding to any of the scientific issues which I raised,

Chek simply indulged in prolific attacks on personality (some of this

material should be in our own Supertraining archives). Later, in replying to

critiques written by top powerlifters, Tom McCullough and Dave Tate, he

referred to powerlifters as " dumptrucks " . Then, some of his interns, as

usual, wrote in to offer their personal testimonials. This is hardly the

best way to prove that your methods are scientifically and clinically valid.

As such it is inappropriate to refer to Chek's methods as being " excellent " -

that is only a matter of opinion and one which Chek consistently has failed

to prove scientifically or practically to anyone, especially powerlifters who

use belts. Chek claimed to train " top " powerlifters, but, when challenged

by top powerlifters on that score, rapidly withdrew from the scene. It is

quite apparent that the lifters whom he criticised have worked with far more

belted and unbelted athletes than he has.

<I got away from a belt a long while ago at the advice of Stuart Mc.

Another problem for women is that belts usually never fit quite right and

tend to dig into the ribs if they're put on tight enough. I do have one made

by Grizzly that manages to get around the problem of women's smaller waist

circumferences, but I've always

found it difficult to breathe deeply with one on. I realize this is a learned

technique and that powerlifters push against the belt with their abdominal

walls. But when they lift in meets they are lifting huge loads which is

different than bodybuilding training.>

***The issue of a poorly designed or ill-fitting belt is precisely what

members of this group have commented upon, instead of dismissing all belt

usage as " dangerous " . On previous posts and in my " Supertraining " book, I

have tried to point out that maximal inhalation is not the optimal way of

stabilising the spine or facilitating heavy lifting. Research quoted by

Vorobyev suggests that lungs filled to about 75% of maximal capacity is

optimal (Textbook on Weightlifting " , 1978). Chek and those whose limited

studies he relies upon for his articles rarely, if ever, examine the

intensity of the Valsalva manoeuvre, the degree of breath holding or the

breathing control patterns used in lifting, yet these issues are very well

known to affect lifting efficiency and safety in lifting competition and

training. Talk about drawing conclusions on the basis of partial or

incomplete research!

<There was a short report on national TV news a few days ago saying that it

will now be up to employers and employees as to whether or not they will be

required to wear these belts on the jobs. It's about time whoever decided on

this belt requirement wised up.>

*** How can they " wise up " when there is not a single study which proves that

belt usage definitely causes more injuries than it prevents in the workplace?

At best, " the jury is still out " on the issue of long term belt use in the

workplace. Even the worst scenario studies show that belt usage among manual

labourers does not significantly improve lifting ability or endurance in

repetitive lifting tasks. On the contrary, it is time that those who

universally decry the use of belts in all lifting settings " wise up " and

familiarise themselves with research and lifting experience by those who lift

the heaviest loads on this planet.

Only a day or so ago, Gray wrote an excellent review of research into

belt usage (Message #3610). I would strongly advise that anyone interested

in this issue read it carefully, as well as the references that he furnished,

especially since some of them seem to indicate that belt wearing actually may

strengthen the abdominal musculature.

So, to sum all of this up:

1. Chek and similar fitness gurus certainly have not proved scientifically

or practically that belt wearing definitely causes any back problems.

2. No research from the world of weight training has ever shown that

periodic belt wearing decreases spinal strength or stability

3. Too many authorities invalidly extrapolate limited findings from the

world of repetitive load carrying and moving to the world of weightlifting

and weight training.

4. Periodic belt wearing may enhance spinal strength and stability.

5. The value of a belt depends on the choice of belt, specific manner of

using a belt and breathing technique involved during a given lifting task.

6. Fitness gurus generally tend to know considerably less than experienced

lifters about squats, other powerlifts, weightlifting movements and various

lifting variations, especially those lifters who combine experience with

science. As some others have aptly said about many fitness gurus, " they

usually know squat about the squat " .

Dr Mel C Siff

Denver, USA

mcsiff@...

[Guest guest]

For those of you who want to wean yourself off a lifting belt, there

is an excellent and very detailed article up on www.testosterone.net

by Chek describing exactly how to go about doing this. This

was part of a series, all of which was very iteresting. 's

methods are not endorsed by all, but I thought the instructions

about how to get away from a belt were very sensible, cautious and

easy to understand and follow.

I got away from a belt a long while ago at the advice of Stuart

Mc. Another problem for women is that belts usually never fit

quite right and tend to dig into the ribs if they're put on tight

enough. I do have one made by Grizzly that manages to get around

the problem of women's smaller waist circumferences, but I've always

found it difficult to breathe deeply with one on. I realize this is

a learned technique and that powerlifters push against the belt with

their abdominal walls. But when they lift in meets they are lifting

huge loads which is different than bodybuilding training.

There was a short report on national TV news a few days ago saying

that it will now be up to employers and employees as to whether or

not they will be required to wear these belts on the jobs. It's

about time whoever decided on this belt requirement wised up.

Rosemary

[Guest guest]

> " Rosemary Wedderburn " <CookieMagic@...> wrote:

><For those of you who want to wean yourself off a lifting belt, there is an

>excellent and very detailed article up on www.testosterone.net by Chek

>describing exactly how to go about doing this......'s methods are not

>endorsed by all, but I

>thought the instructions about how to get away from a belt were very

>sensible, cautious and easy to understand and follow.>

Alden:

This is Chek's personal opinion and given his propensity to state such

without any relevant research, the articles, and Chek, leave me uninspired.

Wedderburn:

<I got away from a belt a long while ago at the advice of Stuart Mc.

>Another problem for women is that belts usually never fit quite right and

>tend to dig into the ribs if they're put on tight enough. I do have one

>made

>by Grizzly that manages to get around the problem of women's smaller waist

>circumferences, but I've always

>found it difficult to breathe deeply with one on. I realize this is a

>learned

>technique and that powerlifters push against the belt with their abdominal

>walls. But when they lift in meets they are lifting huge loads which is

>different than bodybuilding training.>

Alden:

I have never met a succesful PLifter or OWLifter who practises, much less

creates a " technique " for " pushing against their belts " . If a BB is doing

this, regardless of weight or the lift, they need to let their abdominals

reflexively provide the support.

Wedderburn:

<There was a short report on national TV news a few days ago saying that it

>will now be up to employers and employees as to whether or not they will be

>required to wear these belts on the jobs. It's about time whoever decided

>on

>this belt requirement wised up.>

Go to Home Depot or Lowe's. Watch and ask employees about their belt usage.

Even the unintiated and uneducated will soon have either tossed them aside

or wear them so loosely as to provide no benefit, if there ever was one.

Joe Alden

Atlanta USA

________________________________________________________________________________\

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[Guest guest]

Rosemary Wedderburn wrote:

> 's methods are not endorsed by all, but I thought the instructions

> about how to get away from a belt were very sensible, cautious and

> easy to understand and follow.

Chek is clearly very well read on topics related to the world of

strength and conditioning. However, as many others have commented on this

and other lists, his analysis and understanding of this research is

incomplete and this leads to reader to inappropriate conclusions that there

is research available that irrefutably supports his positions.

Look back at my post regarding an article written by a Dr. Hartle that I

read in the Proceedings of the SWIS Symposium. It closely resembled (on the

verge of plagiarism) Chek's " Back Strong and Beltless " article on

testosterone.net. I was particularly interested in the matter-of-factness

of the claim that belts cause " faulty recruitment patterns. " Again, here is

a clip from Dr. Hartle's article:

" Belt use had been shown to alter the natural recruitment patterns of the

abdominal wall, favoring the rectus abdominis (Miyamoto et al., 1999),

erector spinae (Bauer, year unknown), and potentially disrupting recruitment

sequences in the legs (Lander et al., 1992). "

O.K., lets break this down for the sake of clarity:

1) I've searched every possible relevant index to find Bauer's article, and

still no luck. However, if you actually read the other two articles you

will find that neither Miyamoto's nor Lander's groups (nor a large number of

others that they cited in their discussions) found erector spinae activity

to change when wearing a belt during lifting. So then, why is Chek

disregarding the vast scientific evidence against his OPINION?

2) Regarding the claim of belts " potentially disrupting recruitment

sequences in the legs " , Lander et al. DID NOT LOOK AT sequences of muscle

recruitment in the legs during an 8RM squat. They chose biceps femoris as

an example of a hip extensor, and vastus lateralis as an example of a knee

extensor, period. Their conclusions clearly show that patterns of

recruitment for these muscles (not sequences of recruitment for different

muscles) were similar when wearing or not wearing a belt, yet the ACTIVATION

of these muscles was higher throughout the squat exercise with belt use.

Since they also found that their subjects performed squats faster when

wearing a belt, what else would you expect to see in the activation patterns

of these leg muscles?

> There was a short report on national TV news a few days ago saying

> that it will now be up to employers and employees as to whether or

> not they will be required to wear these belts on the jobs. It's

> about time whoever decided on this belt requirement wised up.

Many people (especially in media) make the mistake of inappropriately

comparing two completely different conditions: belt usage during heavy

lifting, and belt usage during repetitive light to moderate manual tasks

(i.e., Home Depot warehouse staff).

Dr. Stuart McGill, Ph.D. has written

extensively on spine biomechanics and lifting in various environments.

Although many in the strength and conditioning world seem to concentrate on

his works that stated abdominal belts were of little or potentially no value

(to industrial workers), he very clearly points out in his articles related

to strength and conditioning that these belts most definitely aid in

stabilizing the lumbar spine during tasks such as squats and deadlifts. If

anyone is interested in more information on his research, look for the

articles he wrote with Cholewicki (who also happens to be a fairly

accomplished Powerlifter).

Best regards,

R. Gray, M.Sc., C.S.C.S., C.K.

firstline@...

Toronto, Canada

[Guest guest]

Though I haven't read Chek's article on Testotserone about weaning off a

belt, it appears as though a semi complex process is involved (just me

reading between the lines). Similar to my approach to dieting (just consume

less calories), my beltless training approach is equally basic (and will

probably outrage an equal amount of people as my " complex " dieting approach

did).

I was able to squat in the high 4's at the time with a belt. One day I forgot

my belt and had to train without it. I was bearly able to squat 405. I

decided that since I wasn't able to squat as much without a belt, the belt

must do a lot of work, hence taking away from my body doing the work. At that

point I decided to only train with a belt for 3 workouts prior to a meet. And

what did I do? I simply started training at 315 without a belt and worked my

way up, just like you would with a belt. It's as simple as can be.

Dan Wagman, Ph.D., C.S.C.S.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/13/00 10:45:31 PM, bob@... writes:

<< What did you find when you altered your training and limited your belt

use? Were 3 sessions prior to the competition sufficient to allow for a

different stabilization technique? How much near max (85% or more of max)

were you able to eventually do beltless? Did you break the 500 barrier? >>

Bob:

Since I backed off in weight and started to train with 315, which at the time

was about 60% 1-RM, I noticed no technique specific differences. But I really

had to work a lot harder, meaning that it felt like I was using muscles that

I never used before. Basically, what was about 60% was a lot harder for me

than a " belt 60%. " Three workouts were definitely enough to get used to

feeling the belt again, but for many years now I compete sans any gear;

Wagman Support Systems, Inc. is my powerlifting gear supplier. My best

" neckd " competition squat was 625@198 at the '97 USPF Central CA. I'm not too

far off now, since I hit 575 for a few singles yesterday.

Dan Wagman, Ph.D., C.S.C.S.

[Guest guest]

I was able to squat in the high 4's at the time with a belt. One day I forgot

my belt and had to train without it. I was bearly able to squat 405. I

decided that since I wasn't able to squat as much without a belt, the belt

must do a lot of work, hence taking away from my body doing the work. At that

point I decided to only train with a belt for 3 workouts prior to a meet. And

what did I do? I simply started training at 315 without a belt and worked my

way up, just like you would with a belt. It's as simple as can be.

Dan Wagman, Ph.D., C.S.C.S..

[Helfst, Bob] Dr. Wagman,

What did you find when you altered your training and limited your belt use?

Were 3 sessions prior to the competition sufficient to allow for a different

stabilization technique? How much near max (85% or more of max) were you able

to eventually do beltless? Did you break the 500 barrier?

Thanks,

Bob Helfst

Muncie, IN