Re: Bench Press Shirts

[Guest guest]

Dave Tate [EliteFTS@...] wrote:

>How many Masters

>weightlifters are there compared with powerlifters? I could be wrong here

>because I do not know the numbers, but IF there are more Master powerlifters,

>could that longevity be due to the equipment?

Good point Dave. I train with guys who are all masters lifters. The young

guys come and go and usually can't hang with us. The meets that I go to, some

of the best lifting is done by masters lifters. One of my training partners

is 71 years old and has been lifting since the sport was born back in the

60's. He wears equipment. It is nothing unusual to see the majority of the

lifters at a meet who have been competing 20 years plus and are in the 40's

50's and 60's (all equipped). At the WABDL Nationals last year, there was an

85 year old (equipped) who was still going at it hard.

[Guest guest]

Burkhardt [emburkha@...]

>As a strength coach, I utilize the squat as one of the primary strengthening

>exercises in my program.

, the squat is utilized by lots of people. Using the squat to do

whatever, is not effected in any way by powerlifters using squat suits.

>In addition, Unlike , I am not

>concerned with how far the knee travels forward as long as the lifter

>demonstrates good balance and control.

Two different uses for the squat. In powerlifting the squat is a competitive

event. Thus, the athletes have developed a technique that will

biomechanically allow us to lift as much as possible. This isn't quite the

case goal in training an athlete in another sport.

>Sometimes I have kids who

>are in awe of that poster and ask what is the most that anyone's ever

>squatted. I usually tell them that it's well over a thousand pounds, but I

>also tell them about how it was done with a " special suit " that may have

>contributed up to about 10%.

Why do you even bother throwing in the rest. Is this an attempt to burst the

kids bubble? The kid simply ask what is the most anyone has ever squatted,

not what he wore or how much drugs he did or even how much the guy weighed. I

get kids ask me that all the time. They also ask me how much I can lift.

After that I usually have to hear about how much their big brother or dad can

lift (it's always more than me). I just answer their questions and tell them

that that is real nice instead of trying to burst their bubble. Regardless of

the details of the lift, I feel it is more important for a kid to be in awe

over what athletes do and encouraged to do better that some day, than

encourage them to make up excuses. Just saying it was some " special suit "

demeans the accomplishment of great lifters like Ed Coan, , Shane

Hammons and all the other lifters who have squatted over 1000 lbs in a suit.

>I also tell them that the technique I teach them (Olympic style) is better >for

athletes - just my opinion.

Hmmmmm....unlike you, I don't tell them anything. I just teach my athletes

them to lift and get stronger with what I show them to do. I don't want my

athletes coming out thinking that Olympic lifts or powerlifts are what is

getting them to be better athletes. I prefer them to believe it is hard work

and dedication in the gym and on the practice field. If they want to be an

Olympic lifter or a powerlifter, then my opinions of either sport isn't going

to influence them one way or another.

>I care about the suit issue because the suit inflates lifts and distorts

>reality in the minds the athletes I teach the squat to.

Probably because you let it. I can't stand the sport of basketball, but I

would never allow my athletes to know that. In fact, I go to their games as

often as I can to support them.

, did you know that there are several pro football teams that purchase a

considerable supply of bench shirts and squat suits every year for their

athletes to use? Perhaps there are some strength coaches that feel that these

inflated lifts are beneficial to their athletes? Perhaps they even believe

that their athletes are subjected to less injuries? Who knows, but they buy

them and they are used.

>one in

>which the training is on average significantly harder and lifts aren't

>increased by special gear.

Pretty demeaning comments huh? My training is very hard. Being that you were

involved in such a " low level " of competition. You don't know too much about

how the higher levels in this sport train. Load 750-800 lbs on your back

sometime and walk out of a rack with it and see how you feel the next day.

Suits don't do much to help that spine. Then four days later try pulling a

750 lb deadlift. My training stays in the 85% + range most of the 7 months I

compete. You don't have nay idea how joints feel after subjecting them to

that kind of weight day in and day out. Last year I hit 5 meets in 5 months.

Set several masters WR's in several different federations.

>I think there are a fair number of PLers who are opposed to gear as well.

I know things about this sport you have no idea about. This is one of

them. Trust me on this one...the overwhelming majority approve of the use of

equipment. You would literally be shocked at the percent that oppose it. It

just unfortunate that the very small minority are the ones who constantly get

upon soap boxes yelling and thumping their chests.

>Another thing to consider is that OLers lift heavy weights without gear and

>they're not getting hurt.

, you keep making this comparison. It really doesn't matter.

Powerlifting is and always has been a sport that involved the use of

equipment. What Olympic lifters are doing or not doing makes no difference to

us.

>As a side note: if you made the top PLers squat raw using OL

>style, they would be about even - except for maybe Coan

If you took the best Olympic lifter, I'll bet they couldn't leg press as much

as some of the pro bodybuilders. Why ? Because powerlifters don't

normally squat high bar and Olympic lifters don't normally spend too much time

pumpin' out reps on a leg press.

>Another safety point to consider is the ballistic nature of OL, and the fact

>that the bar is lifted overhead in a standing unsupported position. There

>is a lot more that can (and does) go wrong during a snatch or clean and jerk

>than in the three power lifts. But even when a heavy Olympic lift does go

>bad, it's not that big of a deal to escape unharmed.

Dave Tate, you guys train pretty ballistically don't you? I know I do. But

we know that us " dump trucks " don't count for much. LOL! Anyway , walk

out with 800 lbs on you back sometime and let your mind just imagine what all

could go wrong and how damaging the effects could be. I saw go

over forward with over 900 lbs at a meet once. His head landed on the edge of

the stage and the weight landed on his back and rolled over on his neck. He

was almost decapitated and spent a few days in the hospital. Can't forget the

times I have seen quadriceps blow and bones in the legs break under heavy

squats. Kind of makes us take this sport really serious.

>Probably because it's (OL) technically too difficult to perform and coach.

>Most OL training programs are more difficult in several ways than most PL

>programs, which is a big turn off to kids.

So when a kid turns off weight training, we have some major problems don't

we.

>I know PL is more popular than OL in this country,but it would be a sad day >if

PL was the only Iron Sport ever presented to kids.

Got news for you, the only iron sport more popular than powerlifting is

BODYBUILDING. To many kids this is the only iron sport.

[Guest guest]

This reasoning does not follow logic. A weightlifter using heals and a

" springy " bar is like a powerlifter using a deadlift bar (which is springier

than a regular bar) and wrestling shoes (to decrease range of motion and

keep heels low) for deadlifting. Suits, wraps, benchsirts, directly affect

the biomechanics and leverages of the body by directly working on the

joints. No other sport allows for mechanical devices that enhance

performance, which makes " supportive " powerlifting a contradiction in terms.

--

Dan Wagman, Ph.D., C.S.C.S.

>

> <<*** To draw this response back on topic: Powerlifting equipment inflates

> lifts - yes, but so does the specialty equipment used in OL. Raw PL is

> to PL what OL without oscillating bars, high heels, etc. is to OL.>>

[Guest guest]

It's unfortunate that this list seems to be straying away from its original

intent of discussing science as it relates to strength training, at least on

this subject. Seems like the tone of science has been replaced with one of

anecdote, personal opinion, and denegrating those that may not have

experience in the sport. I hope that this list will not go the way of so

many others, where a bunch of meatheads take turns trying to pee higher and

higher on a tree.

So taking the discussion back to science, it would seem to be abundantly

clear that wearing equipment which directly works upon a joint and affects

the biomechanics of the athlete takes away from the intent of the sport,

which in the case of powerlifting is the demonstration of maximal strength.

This latter point is at the heart of the matter and although the rules of

many powerlifting federations allow the use of equipment, hiding behind the

rules is the easy way out of what should be an erudite discussion about the

merit and logic of allowing an athlete in powerlifting, or any other sport

for that matter, to artificially enhance his/her performance.

If you go back in powerlifting history, you'll note that there was a great

deal of strife about equipment use. At first, it was about the squat suit

and wraps, then about the bench shirt. On the equipment side you had those

extolling the virtues of equipment with a complete lack of scientific

evidence. On the other side, you had those that questioned the use of

equipment based upon scientific reasoning and wanted some sort of evidence

to support the contentions for use. Some of the equipment was allowed, then

disallowed, then reinstated. In the end, those more science and fact

oriented lost the fight, but the sport lost the battle.

I say this because for decades powerlifters have been toying with the idea

of attaining Olympic recognition. But before the sport ever gets to put one

foot in the door, it'll have to overcome one major obstacle, which is the

IOC's rejection of any mechanical means to aid performance. And even if

powerlifters change their mind and won't seek Olympic recognition, they'll

always have to explain the rationale for using artificial devices to enhance

performance. In the end, it'll have to be rational thought and scientific

methods that'll allow for meaningful discussion, something I sincerely hope

this list will return to.

--

Dan Wagman, Ph.D., C.S.C.S.

[Guest guest]

>

> >How many Masters

> >weightlifters are there compared with powerlifters? I could be

wrong here

> >because I do not know the numbers, but IF there are more Master

powerlifters,

> >could that longevity be due to the equipment?

>

> Good point Dave. I train with guys who are all masters lifters.

The young

> guys come and go and usually can't hang with us. The meets that I

go to, some

> of the best lifting is done by masters lifters. One of my training

partners

> is 71 years old and has been lifting since the sport was born back

in the

> 60's. He wears equipment. It is nothing unusual to see the

majority of the

> lifters at a meet who have been competing 20 years plus and are in

the 40's

> 50's and 60's (all equipped). At the WABDL Nationals last year,

there was an

> 85 year old (equipped) who was still going at it hard.

Hey Tom,

One thing that never fails to amuse me is that no one mentions when a

World Strongest Man competitor comes out for some event and he's

wearing a supersuit and knee wraps. It just looks like the uniform

for the lift. But if a powerlfiter squats 1000 or benches 800 then

the 3 oz of nylon he's wearing is " doing " the lift. What a joke. I

loved my gear.

Mark

[Guest guest]

> Shafer writes....

>

> <<*** To draw this response back on topic: Powerlifting equipment

inflates

> lifts - yes, but so does the specialty equipment used in OL. Raw

PL is

> to PL what OL without oscillating bars, high heels, etc. is to OL.>>

>

>

> Admittedly, bar oscillation can be used to aid the jerk, but it

doesn't help

> in the snatch.

,

dont forget the new Adidas OL suit, kevlar pads on the shoulders for

help in keeping the bar racked, teflon pads over the quads to help

with the thigh brush. Its a brave new world.

Mark

>

> Burkhardt

> Strength and Conditioning Coach

> UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

Tom McCullough <TomMc@n...> wrote:

<, did you know that there are several pro football teams that

purchase a considerable supply of bench shirts and squat suits every year for

their athletes to use? Perhaps there are some strength coaches that feel

that these inflated lifts are beneficial to their athletes? Perhaps they even

believe that their athletes are subjected to less injuries? Who knows, but

they buy them and they are used.....

Another thing to consider is that OLers lift heavy weights without

gear and they're not getting hurt.....

Another safety point to consider is the ballistic nature of OL, and the fact

that the bar is lifted overhead in a standing unsupported position. There is a

lot more that can (and does) go wrong during a snatch or clean and jerk than in

the three power lifts. But even when a heavy Olympic lift does go bad, it's not

that big of a deal to escape unharmed.

Dave Tate, you guys train pretty ballistically don't you? I know I

do. But we know that us " dump trucks " don't count for much. LOL! Anyway

, walk out with 800 lbs on you back sometime and let your mind just

imagine what all could go wrong and how damaging the effects could be. I saw

go over forward with over 900 lbs at a meet once. His head landed

on the edge of the stage and the weight landed on his back and rolled over on

his

neck. He was almost decapitated and spent a few days in the hospital. Can't

forget the times I have seen quadriceps blow and bones in the legs break under

heavy squats. Kind of makes us take this sport really serious.>

Who says that Olympic lifters dont get hurt?

Mark

[Guest guest]

Twas Writ:

>VoodooChile [raelsixty4@...] wrote:

>

>>Now I could be completely wrong...wouldn't be the first time, but is

>>powerlifting not a sport that tests the strength of an individual? Is that

>>not the " point " of the sport?

>

>The " point " of the sport is to get the biggest total you can while doing it

>within the rules. It's not about some strength test. If you want to test

>your strength then have a Kinesiologist run some strength test on you.

***semantics...if it's not about strength/numbers/totals, then what's the

point of it all?

>>Consequently, *if* one does view PLing as a sport designed to test one's

>>brute strength, then the use of any/all assisted equipment should be viewed

>>as just that: assisted PLing.

>

>Since equipment is part of this sport, how about just POWERLIFTING? For all

>of you that think it is assisted, how about you take a bench press shirt and

>place it under a bar loaded with 135 lbs and see how far it moves.

***if the bench shirt did not assist one's lift, people would not be

rushing out and buying them. And according to the conversations on the

strength list, bench shirts *do* assist, so unless you're saying all your

friends on the strength list are full of it, i think it's fairly well

accepted that assistance equipment does indeed typically help a person lift

more weight than he/she would lift RAW.

>>If such assistance equipment is accepted,

>>then why not accept drugs usage as well (as some Feds do)?

>

>I've got to ask you the same thing I ask ...are you even a powerlifter?

>>From what I remember you saying on the Strength list is that you just

started

>dabbling in it? Hmmmmmmmmm.....any way there is not ONE federation that

***come on, if you wish to attack me personally, do it...don't cower behind

a " hmmmmm " .

>accepts or condones drug use. The fact that they don't choose to test

doesn't

>meany anything except that the meet directors don't care to pay about $60 out

>of the slim pickings that they make off a meet to run a drug test on someone.

***Really? I am sure it *is* economics, but more to the tune that if they

start testing every individual competing, it may be a case of having very

few individuals competeing next time due to a large number of

disqualifications.

They should simply say " we allow drugs, we allow equipment " and be done

with it. Get it out in the open and quit playing games.

>Often times that may mean that they go broke. The fact that a federation

does

>drug test also doesn't mean whole lot. I know of about 5 or 6 easy ways to

>beat them. The difference between drug use and equipment use is

possession of

>steroids without a prescription is a felony. Possession of equipment is

>completely legal and its use allowed by most all federations. Nothing

meaning, if drugs were legal - by the federations and by the government -

you would find no problem with such usage either? that's sad...

>uncommon for your anti-equipment people to try to lump equipment and drugs

>together. This tactic has been going on for a few years now. It doesn't

>float very well.

it " floats " just as well as the " tactics " you use above. Nevertheless,

there is *no* difference between drugs and equipment use other than one

being illegal and not " officially " accepted by Feds. Both aid in lifting,

short and sweet.

>>Hang a couple bands from a power rack

>>and I'll show you a 155 pound lifter (me) squating with 1000 on my back.

>>Merely me and some assistance equipment.

>

>

>See Mel, what I mean about degrading and demeaning remarks. Oh well

nothing I

What is degrading and demeaning about an example? It was a poor example

because bands are merely training devices and not assistance equipement,

but the point was there. And what are you asking here? That Dr. Siff " do

something " about me because my line of thinking is offensive or the like to

you? Maybe Dr. Siff is a " good buddy " and you hope he'll just toss me off

the list? This explains much to me about you as a person.

And I will add that I have no reason to believe that Dr. Siff would stoop

play a game such as this. I would have no problem if banned from this list

for leaning towards the " flaming " that it seems has begun, but you, sir,

have done no different.

But how about this as a scenerio: ever seen the movie Alien (what, #2?)

where Sigorney W. is in some sort of mechanical " suit " that can, I would

assume by the way she flings the Alien about, lift tons of weight? Well,

by the logic being used that " equipment is and always has been a part of

Powerlifting " , all it would take is for the majority of people to " vote "

such equipment in, and voila, we'd have mechanical powerlifting.

It's a ridiculous scenerio, i know, but the point is the same - equipment

that aids in lifting is just that: assistance equipement. If a person want

to use it, good for him/her. But it is not necessarily a TRUE

result/number/lift because it's assisted. It doesn't matter if equipment

is accepted - i'm not debating the rules; it matters because lifters say " I

squat with 500 pounds " when they should say, to be completely *honest*, " I

squat assisted with 500 pounds " .

That's the difference, that's the whole debate. Some people, me for one,

prefer to lift without any equipment because it is a more true test of

individual strength. It is that simple.

>haven't heard before. Look my friend, if you think equipment works like that

>then I will buy you all the equipment you can get on just to watch you put a

>1000 lbs on you back and walk out of a rack with it. As a matter of fact, I

>might pitch in a little cash too. You may need it to help cover some of your

>doctor bills. LOL!

>>But I *do* get tired of people defending

>>equipment use while ignoring the plain and simple fact that it *is*

>>*assisting* the lift,

>

>LOL! Excuse me, but I am the only one on this list that has been

defending my

>use of equipment. I have never said one time that I don't use equipment to

>increase my total. OF COURSE THAT IS THE MAIN REASON. It is you

>anti-equipment people that keep ignoring what we are saying. Perhaps by

>choice?

>>It takes very little thought at all to realize that

>>a lift completed RAW is almost always a better test, or more correctly,

>>will produce a truer RM of a person's strength than a lift completed with a

>>suit.

>

>

>LOL! You haven't figured it out yet. WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN A TRUE 1RM.

This is indeed sad to know then...

>This isn't part of some college lab experiment. This is a sport to see who

>can get the biggest total while performing the required lifts within the

>rules. Now read this part: THE RULES ALLOW EQUIPMENT. The overwhelming

>majority of us approve of this and are completely happy with this. The only

>thing that has changed is that within the past 7 or 8 year a few sour grapes

>that couldn't win a meet if someone put a gun to their heads went off finger

>pointing about the other guys having better equipment. So instead of doing

>the logical and getting the same equipment and working even harder in the

gym,

>they picked up their toys and formed another federation so they could finally

>win meets and claim to be world champs. The so called " raw " movement is

dying

>faster than a June Beatle in an Alaskan winter.

The " logical " ?? Really? One should simply throw away the history and

honor behind strength sports and say " it doesn't matter how you do

it...just get big numbers and WIN " . Wonderful attitude...mentality.

You're right, I'm not a competing PLer, and it's becoming quite clear to me

that I don't want any part of such if this is what Powerlifting is

about....because it seems it's " much to do about nothing " . It's not true

tests of strength, i.e. the lifts are ASSISTED.

>>Of course, as a non-competing lifter, few see beyond that and consider me a

>> " wanna-be " or discount me completely.

>

>Hmmmmmmmmmm.....no comment.

>

You disappoint me...

Anyhow, i suppose the result is we agree to disagree. You consider

equipment and the like to be wonderful simply because the rules allow it,

completely disregarding the idea that a test of human strength should be an

unassisted test of strength, and I think different. It's good to disagree.

But enough of this. If nothing else, I'm bored with it all and it's quite

depressing as well.

Rael / don mutchler

[Guest guest]

Dan Wagman wrote:

>

> joints. No other sport allows for mechanical devices that enhance

> performance, which makes " supportive " powerlifting a contradiction in terms.

> --

This is not entirely true. Much research has been done at the

University of Calgary by Benno Nigg and colleagues regarding footwear,

particularly for sprinters and other track and field disciplines. Among

this work has been development of soles that store elastic energy at

touchdown and release towards toe off (or whatever the correct terms

are).

Similarly, much research is available regarding floors and track

surfaces. For example, you would be hardpressed to find an NBA arena

that didn't have a sprung floor, which many suggest decreases the

impulses upon landing from the many jumps basketball players perform and

may prevent injuries. Of course, one has to wonder if these floors

allow the athletes to jump higher as well, allowing for the spectacular

dunks that are so commonplace.

Swimming is itself not without controversy over the " fastskin " suits

that Speedo and adidas manufacture. Many claim that the large number of

world records broken in the last year or so are due to these new suits.

A decade ago, speedskaters started using the " clap skate " which allows

force to be applied over a longer period of the stride. Records were

falling all over the world.

I think we have to face the truth. Technology has caught up to sport,

and as Tom McCullough said, those who don't use it will fall behind.

Such is the nature of life. Nothing can stay the same forever. Heck,

the ancient Greeks might think that today's Olympics are blasphemy

because wrestlers wrestle on mats, runners wear shoes, and women are

allowed to compete.

Loren Chiu

Graduate Assistant

Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory

Human Performance Laboratories

The University of Memphis