Re: Bench Press Shirts

[Guest guest]

Yosef wrote,

>

>What is your opinion of bench press shirts? Our lifter, Ron Madison,

>does not use one. He has not seen any need for one and has been

>lifting very heavy loads for many years. Nonetheless, there are many

>that say it can lead to injuries. My thought is that if technique is

>correct and the training is periodized correctly, there should not be

>many problems. With a lack of proper training to all other muscles

>involved I could see the concern. Please give any research on this

>subject.

My own opinion is that while bench press shirts and other supportive gear

can allow lifters to continue to lift with injuries or poor technique, the

primary reason for using them is not injury prevention, but to enable the

lifter to lift more.

People who train with them have refined their techniques to get the most

out of them. IMO people like Kenny would still be premier bench

pressers with or without the shirt. But he may not be doing 730 lbs...

Honestly, the whole argument of injury prevention is simply justification.

Gear is used to lift more weight. I say this as a lifter who uses the

stuff.

I used to think that my knees could not take heavy squats without wraps. In

fact, the wraps allowed me to use poor technique and training methods and

still get stronger. I could have simply learned to squat properly and train

properly and not needed the wraps.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

Grip it and rip it!

[Guest guest]

Yosef wrote...

<<What is your opinion of bench press shirts?>>

I think they're dumb, and Powerlifting would be a better sport if lifting

suits were banned.

<<Our lifter, Ron Madison, does not use one. He has not seen any need for

one and has been

lifting very heavy loads for many years.>>

Then I take my hat off for Ron Madison.

<<Nonetheless, there are many that say it can lead to injuries.>>

I doubt they cause injuries, unless of course the thing blows out during a

maximal attempt.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

Yosef wrote:

<What is your opinion of bench press shirts? Our lifter, Ron

Madison, does not use one. He has not seen any need for one and has been

lifting very heavy loads for many years. Nonetheless, there are

many that say it can lead to injuries. My thought is that if technique

is correct and the training is periodized correctly, there should not

be many problems. With a lack of proper training to all other muscles

involved I could see the concern. Please give any research on this subject.>

Does equipment add to lifts? Yes.

Does it inflate numbers? Yes.

Does it prevent injury? Yes.

What I find is that the mass of complaints comes from those who do

not use equipment. Why? More often than not, it is those who choose

to lift raw taking the pot-shots at those who use it. Whose ego is

more damaged? I haven't heard an equipped lifter complain that a raw

lifter is an embarassment or bad for the sport. A strong person is

strong regardless of whether they use " artificial " strength or not.

Ultimately, both must train and train hard. They must research the

methods and come to know the science behind them.

I respect any who chooses to compete, whether it be raw or equipped, drug-free

or

enhanced. If you choose not to use what is available, that is your choice. I

will not denigrate your wishes. I ask the same in return.

[Guest guest]

Burkhardt [emburkha@...]wrote:

>I think they're dumb, and Powerlifting would be a better sport if lifting

>suits were banned.

Let me ask you something ....are you even a powerlifter? I already know

that answer(no), so why do you even have an opinion about the shirt? You will

never have to worry about wearing one. Why do you feel you have the right to

even say what would make a sport that I have spent 21 years competing in

better or not better. You have no earthly idea what is good or not good for

this sport.

>Then I take my hat off for Ron Madison.

I have spent the entire 21 year of my lifting career in equipment. Does

that mean my accomplishments are any less? Hardly.....but then who really

cares. I have never heard of Ron Madison.

I honestly get sick and tired of seeing this issue come up over and over.

It usually gets started by people that either aren't in the sport or those

who can't make it in the sport. The majority of us love it don't seek the

approval of strength coaches, academia, Olympic lifters or wanna be's. We

do it because we love what we are doing. Like it or not, equipment has been

a part of the sport for many years. If you can't stand that then don't get

into the sport. Equipment is here to stay in the sport of powerlifting,

either use it or get left behind.

[Guest guest]

I was not insulting anyone. I was merely asking for any research

that proves that the shirts are injury preventive if proper technique

and training is overseen by an expert. Ron has an able coach in Dr.

Yessis and has never had any serious problems. My guess is that if

there were going to be any, he would have had them. The only thing

that is confusing about the shirts is that people sometimes throw out

impressive numbers and neglect to mention that the lift was made with

a shirt. I have no problem with anyone who does, it is simply our

lifter's personal choice to see what he can lift without one.

Yosef

------------------------

Yosef wrote:

>

> <What is your opinion of bench press shirts? Our lifter, Ron

> Madison, does not use one. He has not seen any need for one and has

> been lifting very heavy loads for many years. Nonetheless, there are

> many that say it can lead to injuries. My thought is that if

> technique is correct and the training is periodized correctly, there should

> not be many problems. With a lack of proper training to all other

> muscles involved I could see the concern. Please give any research on this

> subject.>

" Nadzeika " <Mindfunky1@h...> wrote:

> Does equipment add to lifts? Yes.

> Does it inflate numbers? Yes.

> Does it prevent injury? Yes.

>

> What I find is that the mass of complaints comes from those who do

> not use equipment. Why? More often than not, it is those who choose

> to lift raw taking the pot-shots at those who use it. Whose ego is

> more damaged? I haven't heard an equipped lifter complain that a raw

> lifter is an embarassment or bad for the sport. A strong person is

> strong regardless of whether they use " artificial " strength or not.

> Ultimately, both must train and train hard. They must research the

> methods and come to know the science behind them.

>

> I respect any who chooses to compete, whether it be raw or equipped,

> drug-free or enhanced. If you choose not to use what is available, that is

your

> choice. I will not denigrate your wishes. I ask the same in return.

[Guest guest]

>

> >I think they're dumb, and Powerlifting would be a better sport if

lifting

> >suits were banned.

>

> Let me ask you something ....are you even a powerlifter? I

already know

> that answer(no), so why do you even have an opinion about the shirt?

You will

> never have to worry about wearing one. Why do you feel you have the

right to

> even say what would make a sport that I have spent 21 years

competing in

> better or not better. You have no earthly idea what is good or not

good for

> this sport.

>

> >Then I take my hat off for Ron Madison.

>

> I have spent the entire 21 year of my lifting career in equipment.

Does

> that mean my accomplishments are any less? Hardly.....but then who

really

> cares. I have never heard of Ron Madison.

>

> I honestly get sick and tired of seeing this issue come up over and

over.

> It usually gets started by people that either aren't in the sport or

those

> who can't make it in the sport. The majority of us love it don't

seek the

> approval of strength coaches, academia, Olympic lifters or wanna

be's. We

> do it because we love what we are doing. Like it or not, equipment

has been

> a part of the sport for many years. If you can't stand that then

don't get

> into the sport. Equipment is here to stay in the sport of

powerlifting,

> either use it or get left behind.

Are you saying that Ron is getting left behind? You better tell the

WDFPF that. He has been the world champion five years in a row and is

the world record holder in the 181lb class [junior division]. In the

198lb class he has lifted over 450lb. He has been very successful

without a shirt and has very little competition at world meets. While

I don't criticize anyone for wearing one, I think you are incorrect to

say that he will get left behind if he does not wear one. He is only

26 years old and will eventually break the world record and cross the

500lb mark for his weight class.

Yosef

[Guest guest]

Hi Tom,

You and I have been on the same lists for a few years now and I think you

know where I stand on the issue of Powerlifting " gear " . We'll probably just

wind up having to " agree to disagree " on this one. Please enjoy my response

below....

Burkhardt (EB) got this thread going by stating...

>I think they're (PL bench shirts and PL squatting suits) dumb, and

Powerlifting would be a better sport if lifting suits were banned.

Tom McCullough (TMcC) then responded...

Let me ask you something ....are you even a powerlifter? I already know

that answer(no), so why do you even have an opinion about the shirt?

's (EB's) response to Tom....

Actually, I have competed in powerlifting (at a VERY low level) prior to

taking up Olympic style " weightlifting " . In my less than stellar lifting

career which unofficially began around the summer of 1979 I have lifted in 2

powerlifting meets. The boring, and sometime funny story below tells

all.....

Around the time I started messing around with free weights for that first

summer (circa 1979) in a friends Redondo Beach, CA backyard, a brand new

Nautilus gym (Pacific Nautilus) was being built near my house in Torrance.

A few weeks before it opened - before the equipment was even in there - I

dropped in to find out what why some were saying that this " new wave "

cutting edge Nautilus equipment was THE best. The sales guy (probably a 1st

generation H.I.T.ter) lured me into his office and gave me the hard-lined

Nautilus " spiel " . I fell for it hook, line and sinker - heck I was only 17.

After about a year of training I began to have doubts as some of my friends

were getting bigger and stronger with free weights. I deiced to make the

switch.

I landed in Disc Gym in Torrance, CA. The membership of the run down place

consisted mostly of crusty old pseudo bodybuilders and one very good

powerlifter: Jim Grudzein (sp?). I can honestly say he was my original

inspiration to pursue heavy iron. I think before a career ending injury,

Jim was close to one of the best in the 181lb class with around a 735 SQ,

435 BP and 755DL. Of course Bridges was the king of that class at the time

and no one else was any where close.

After about a year of training for PL (I was 100% self-coached), I signed up

for my first meet. I had gathered enough info from the few PLUSA mags I had

to know that I needed a lifting suit. I went to Marathon Nutrition in San

Pedro and Zangas (sp?), the owner of the store, sold me my first

suit. I would later see training on a regular basis at the Muscle

Mill. Not knowing what I was doing, I did not put that suit on until the

day of the meet. I couldn't believe I needed help getting it on. I'll

never forget how shocked I was when I began to do my warm ups. The suit was

so restricting that it definitely changed my normal squatting movement

pattern. Any elastic benefit from the suit was cancelled out by the changes

I had to make in my technique.

I competed in 2 PL meets and I believe my best competition lifts in the

lean-n-mean 165lb class were: Squat 341lbs (155kg), Bench Press - no shirt

(don't laugh) 226lbs (102.5kg), Deadlift (by far my best event) 451lbs

(205kg).

I left Disc Gym (circa 1983) and signed up at the Muscle Mill (which later

became Future Fitness) in Redondo Beach. Believe it or not, this gym was

owned and operated by none other than one of the most vocal advocates of

H.I.T., Mike Mentzer and his brother Ray. Benny Poda also worked there.

Around this time I blew out my back when I unintentionally turned the 3rd

rep of a heavy set of squats into a good morning. I suffered back pain for

about 1.5yrs, but the pain in my back was nothing compared to the emotional

pain I felt from not being able to the squat and deadlift.

Then one day I was paging through a Men's Fitness mag (a Weider M & F

spin-off) and saw an article by Fred Hatfield (Dr. Squat) on the " Safety

Squat Bar " . The pictures in the article showed Hatfield squatting a piddley

500# with the bar, but what caught my eye was that his torso was almost

perfectly vertical. I thought if I could squat like that with this bar it

wouldn't hurt my back. The end of the article guided the reader to call the

editor of the magazine for more info on the Safety Squat Bar. I called it,

and the lady who answered said I could speak directly to the author of the

article. I WAS ON THE PHONE WITH FRED FREAKIN' HATFIELD!!!

I could barely speak! I think he could perceive my nervous enthusiasm and

our short phone conversation let to an invitation to his home near Cal State

Northridge. There I was the next day, training in Dr. Squat's garage on the

Safety Squat Bar - a piece of equipment I still use occasionally in my

training. I got a real treat when I was able to hang around long enough to

watch Fred work up to an easy 700# triple. This was around the time he did

1008 in Hawaii.

The back eventually got better and I returned to training, but I was about

to turn my attention to an Iron Sport I barely knew anything about. My

attendance at the Weightlifting competition at LMU during the '84 Olympics

along with one of my college professors' interest in WL is what got me

hooked. I never turned back.

TMcC....

You will

never have to worry about wearing one. Why do you feel you have the right to

even say what would make a sport that I have spent 21 years competing in

better or not better. You have no earthly idea what is good or not good for

this sport.

EB...

Hey, we must have started PL around the same time (1981). I think I have

*some* idea of what is good/bad for the sport.

TMcC....

I have spent the entire 21 year of my lifting career in equipment. Does

that mean my accomplishments are any less?

EB...

Nope, and I never said that. Tom, I'm a little familiar with your lifts,

and from what I can remember, they are very impressive. If you did 50

pounds less in the squat and bench press without gear I'd still be every bit

as impressed.

T McC....

I honestly get sick and tired of seeing this issue come up over and over.

It usually gets started by people that either aren't in the sport or those

who can't make it in the sport. The majority of us love it don't seek the

approval of strength coaches, academia, Olympic lifters or wanna be's. We

do it because we love what we are doing. Like it or not, equipment has been

a part of the sport for many years. If you can't stand that then don't get

into the sport. Equipment is here to stay in the sport of powerlifting,

either use it or get left behind.

EB...

I respectfully understand your paragraph above, but I still think PL would

be a better sport without the lifting suits/shirts.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

" Nadzeika " <Mindfunky1@h...> wrote:

<Does equipment add to lifts?> Yes.

I agree.

<Does it inflate numbers?> Yes.

I agree.

<Does it prevent injury?> Yes.

I disagree. Elite weightlifters snatch (SHW WR close to 500lbs) and jerk

(SHW WR close to 600lbs) weights overhead without getting injured and they

don't wear special shirts, and they're putting the shoulder joint in

positions that are arguably far less stable.

<A strong person is strong regardless of whether they use " artificial "

strength or not.>

Exactly! So what if someone benches 50lbs less without a bench shirt!!

It's every bit as impressive, and we'd know he/she did it without any

assistance.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

yosef_j@... wrote:

>Are you saying that Ron is getting left behind? You better tell the

>WDFPF that. He has been the world champion five years in a row and is

>the world record holder in the 181lb class [junior division]. In the

>198lb class he has lifted over 450lb.

Don't know Yosef, I'll let you be the judge if Ron is getting left behind.

Last year Halbert benched 650, Waterman 628, Kellum 595...all in the 198's.

Robbins did 550 and McCormick 529 in the 181's. Marcus Schnick 562 in the

165's. In the 198's 450 would hardly make the top 100 list. Being a world

record holder in the the WDFPF only means he is the best in that federation.

There is a another whole big world outside the WDFPF and the waters are pretty

rough.

[Guest guest]

Burkhardt [emburkha@...] wrote:

>You and I have been on the same lists for a few years now and I think you

>know where I stand on the issue of Powerlifting " gear " .

What I don't understand is why you would even care one way or another. You

aren't a powerlifter, you don't coach powerlifting, you will never be a

powerlifter, and you probably haven't been to a meet in 19 years. This would

be like me objecting and voicing my opinions about Olympic lifting. I ain't

one and never will be so why should I care?

>Hey, we must have started PL around the same time (1981). I think I have

>*some* idea of what is good/bad for the sport.

LOL. Yeah, you lost interest and quit 19 years ago. Trust me, in that 2

short years 19 years ago, you have no idea what is good or bad for this sport.

Why would you want to try to tell those of us who are actually in this sport

what is good and bad for us any way? We already know and some just like me

work very hard politically to help us get there.

>I respectfully understand your paragraph above, but I still think PL would

>be a better sport without the lifting suits/shirts.

, you don't seem to understand that powerlifting isand always has been a

sport which uses support equipment. Your statement would be like saying

football would be a better sport without the football.

This is not even Olympic lifting. We have our own bars, our own weights, our

own squat racks, or own equipment and our own rules. We have no desire to be

Olympic lifters or even look like them.

This sport is doing just fine. We are now being televised and have two fine

organization that are providing cash meets for our lifters. This sport is

growing more and more each year. In Texas it is the fastest growing sport in

our high schools. We now have about 200 high school that have started

powerlifting teams in the state of Texas and most have also incorporated

powerlifting into their athletic training programs, pushing the O-lifts out

the training room door. We are doing just fine and making great progress, and

doing it with equipment.

[Guest guest]

yosef_j@... wrote:

>I was merely asking for any research that proves that the shirts are injury

>preventive if proper technique and training is overseen by an expert.

From what I understand there are only two studies that have been done on the

bench press shirt. Aso have been told they were done to see if the equipment

actually help a lifter to lift more as we have claimed over the years.

I have posted this before and the offer still stands, if any researchers are

serious about doing studies on the bench press shirt or squat suit let me

know. I will put you in touch with Inzer of Inzer Advance Designs.

>The only thing that is confusing about the shirts is that people sometimes

>throw out impressive numbers and neglect to mention that the lift was made

>with a shirt.

Those of us who are in the sport know our rules permit the use of equipment,

so most of us assume it is done that way. My training partner before, I moved

was . He got official credit for benching 800 pounds. Yes he

did it in a bench shirt. However, I have seen him do over 700 as a warm up

with out a bench shirt. So how much can he do with out being properly

equipped...AC says " why take a chance of finding out. I believe I am still in

the sport today hitting big numbers because of equipment. " has been

setting world records for over 23 years. At 44 years of age I still hit 4-5

meets a year. I spend 7 months out of the year training equipped at weights

of 85% and higher and basically injury free all my career. The only injury I

received during this time was during the off season while I train without

equipment. Thanks to equipment, I can look forward to another 21 years of

hard training and competition.

[Guest guest]

>

> <Does equipment add to lifts?> Yes.

>

> I agree.

>

> <Does it inflate numbers?> Yes.

>

> I agree.

>

> <Does it prevent injury?> Yes.

>

> I disagree. Elite weightlifters snatch (SHW WR close to 500lbs)

and jerk

> (SHW WR close to 600lbs) weights overhead without getting injured

I've seen plenty of shoulder, elbow,wrist, back ,knee and ankle

injuries in weightlifting. That's part of the risk of competing and

working for absolute maximums in any sport. Price of glory.

and they

> don't wear special shirts, and they're putting the shoulder joint in

> positions that are arguably far less stable.

>

> <A strong person is strong regardless of whether they

use " artificial "

> strength or not.>

>

> Exactly! So what if someone benches 50lbs less without a bench

shirt!!

> It's every bit as impressive, and we'd know he/she did it without

any

> assistance.

Dont forget- gear is fun! Guys wear it cause it makes them feel

stronger to move heavier numbers,whether they truly are or not. It is

all about ego, whatever the form.Not a judgement, just and

observation.I loved my bench shirt!LOL

Mark

>

> Burkhardt

> Strength and Conditioning Coach

> UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

>

> >Are you saying that Ron is getting left behind? You better tell the

> >WDFPF that. He has been the world champion five years in a row and

is

> >the world record holder in the 181lb class [junior division]. In

the

> >198lb class he has lifted over 450lb.

>

> Don't know Yosef, I'll let you be the judge if Ron is getting left

behind.

> Last year Halbert benched 650, Waterman 628, Kellum 595...all in the

198's.

> Robbins did 550 and McCormick 529 in the 181's. Marcus Schnick 562

in the

> 165's. In the 198's 450 would hardly make the top 100 list. Being

a world

> record holder in the the WDFPF only means he is the best in that

federation.

> There is a another whole big world outside the WDFPF and the waters

are pretty

> rough.

Are these individuals drug tested? And are they not equipped? There

is a huge difference if they are not. The water is muddied when there

is not an absolute measurement. The shirt can easily add 50lbs to a

bench and drugs can add even more. I would feel very confident having

Ron compete against anyone in the 198lb in a drug free and unequipped

event.

Yosef

[Guest guest]

Twas Writ:

> Burkhardt [emburkha@...]wrote:

>

>>I think they're dumb, and Powerlifting would be a better sport if lifting

>>suits were banned.

>

>Let me ask you something ....are you even a powerlifter? I already know

>that answer(no), so why do you even have an opinion about the shirt? You will

>never have to worry about wearing one. Why do you feel you have the right to

>even say what would make a sport that I have spent 21 years competing in

>better or not better. You have no earthly idea what is good or not good for

>this sport.

>

***I don't think it has a thing to do with what is " good " for the sport, it

has to do with one's philosophy of what the sport is. I would think PLing

is a sport of strength: three different lifts where one's strength is

tested, yes? And the key is: a person's strength is tested; not a person's

strength *assisted* by elastic, kevlar, and so on.

Now I could be completely wrong...wouldn't be the first time, but is

powerlifting not a sport that tests the strength of an individual? Is that

not the " point " of the sport?

Consequently, *if* one does view PLing as a sport designed to test one's

brute strength, then the use of any/all assisted equipment should be viewed

as just that: assisted PLing. If such assistance equipment is accepted,

then why not accept drugs usage as well (as some Feds do)? It's merely

chemical assistance. Why not strap on an elastic whole-body lifting suit?

It's merely assistance equipment. Hang a couple bands from a power rack

and I'll show you a 155 pound lifter (me) squating with 1000 on my back.

Merely me and some assistance equipment.

Now personally, if a person wants to use equipment to lift, so be it. I've

don't care to be honest...and I really don't care how the person views

his/her use of equipment. If a person wants to use drugs/steriods too, go

for it. It's his/her body. But I *do* get tired of people defending

equipment use while ignoring the plain and simple fact that it *is*

*assisting* the lift, i.e. that use of such equipment does effect the end

results: the weight being lifted may *not* be a true measure of strength

because there is equipment backing the movement up.

>>Then I take my hat off for Ron Madison.

>

>I have spent the entire 21 year of my lifting career in equipment. Does

>that mean my accomplishments are any less? Hardly.....but then who really

>cares. I have never heard of Ron Madison.

>I honestly get sick and tired of seeing this issue come up over and over.

>It usually gets started by people that either aren't in the sport or those

>who can't make it in the sport.

***Irrelevent...one doesn't have to participate in a sport to comment upon

certain aspects of it. It takes very little thought at all to realize that

a lift completed RAW is almost always a better test, or more correctly,

will produce a truer RM of a person's strength than a lift completed with a

suit.

>do it because we love what we are doing. Like it or not, equipment has been

>a part of the sport for many years. If you can't stand that then don't get

>into the sport. Equipment is here to stay in the sport of powerlifting,

>either use it or get left behind.

***Of course many non-assisted lifters will get left behind. Just as (I

assume) many people get left behind by drug-using lifters. In the years to

come, something new will come along and the steriod crowd will get left

behind as well(my bet is something to do with genetics). But in the end -

and i almost hate to bring this point up - those who respect and honor

sports/tests of pure strength will still compete (or not <g>) with nothing

but the clothes on their backs. Or maybe no clothes

Personally, I love to lift because I love to see how strong I am, love to

push myself to see how strong I can become. But let me repeat that: how

strong *I* can become...*my* arms, *my* legs, *my* hips, etc. Not my

arms/legs/etc wrapped in some kind of

fiberous-100pound-test-line-teflon-coated " shirt " . It's my strength - or

lack of it. No excuses, no assistance.

Of course, as a non-competing lifter, few see beyond that and consider me a

" wanna-be " or discount me completely. But that's fine too.

Rael / don mutchler

[Guest guest]

Burkhardt wrote:

> The back eventually got better and I returned to training, but I was about to

turn my attention to an Iron Sport I barely knew

> anything about. My

> attendance at the Weightlifting competition at LMU during the '84 Olympics

along with one of my college professors' interest in WL is

> what got me

> hooked. I never turned back.

We should all be so lucky as to have had Garhammer teach us how to lift

I can't think of anyone else in the U.S. who has

studied the biomechanics of lifting so extensively.

Loren Chiu

Graduate Assistant

Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory

Human Performance Laboratories

The University of Memphis

[Guest guest]

Yosef <yosef_j@...> wrote:

<I was merely asking for any research that proves that the shirts are injury

preventive if proper technique and training is overseen by an expert.>

This is one debate I do not want to be a part of. I am pro equipment and

will always be and there will always be those who are against it. I

understand and respect that. To address the above question, How many Masters

weightlifters are there compared with powerlifters? I could be wrong here

because I do not know the numbers, but IF there are more Master powerlifters,

could that longevity be due to the equipment?

Dave Tate

[Guest guest]

Burkhardt wrote:

<You and I have been on the same lists for a few years now and I think you

know where I stand on the issue of Powerlifting " gear " .>

Tom (TMcC) responded....

What I don't understand is why you would even care one way or another. You

aren't a powerlifter, you don't coach powerlifting, you will never be a

powerlifter, and you probably haven't been to a meet in 19 years. This

would be like me objecting and voicing my opinions about Olympic lifting. I

ain't one and never will be so why should I care?

EB...

As a strength coach, I utilize the squat as one of the primary strengthening

exercises in my program. Since I do not have football, I am tickled pink if

I get an athlete to approach double body weight in the back squat by the

time they are a senior. Keep in mind that I teach an Olympic style back

squat - high bar, shoulder width stance (if possible), torso as close to

vertical and as low as possible. In addition, Unlike , I am not

concerned with how far the knee travels forward as long as the lifter

demonstrates good balance and control.

I have a poster in my weight room of a Russian weightlifter (I'm guessing

90kg (198lbs) class) squatting 300kg (661lbs). Sometimes I have kids who

are in awe of that poster and ask what is the most that anyone's ever

squatted. I usually tell them that it's well over a thousand pounds, but I

also tell them about how it was done with a " special suit " that may have

contributed up to about 10%. I also tell them that it was done using a

technique which allows more weight to be lifted and one that is quite

different to the technique I teach them. I also tell them that the

technique I teach them (Olympic style) is better for athletes - just my

opinion.

I care about the suit issue because the suit inflates lifts and distorts

reality in the minds the athletes I teach the squat to. If I get a (male)

170lb kid to perform a beautiful, deep, Olympic style back squat with

365lbs, he should be very proud. If he gets wind of what the world record

squat in PL is for his weight class, it becomes important for him to

understand the differences between the two performances.

TMcC....

<LOL. Yeah, you lost interest and quit 19 years ago.>

EB....

I didn't quit anything, I just switched to a different Iron Sport - one in

which the training is on average significantly harder and lifts aren't

increased by special gear.

TMcC.....

<Trust me, in that 2 short years 19 years ago, you have no idea what is good or

bad for this sport. Why would you want to try to tell those of us who are

actually in this sport what is good and bad for us any way?>

EB....

I think there are a fair number of PLers who are opposed to gear as well.

TMcC....

<, you don't seem to understand that powerlifting is and always has been

a sport which uses support equipment. Your statement would be like saying

football would be a better sport without the football.>

EB....

That is not a convincing argument. If the lifter is well trained and

conditioned, it should not be particularly dangerous to do a maximum squat,

bench press, deadlift, snatch or clean & jerk without gear as long as the

training was done without gear. Lifting is fairly predictable (unless your suit

blows out -

sorry couldn't resist), football is not, which is why it necessitates the use of

protective equipment. Football players must be prepared to take blows, many of

which are unanticipated.

Another thing to consider is that OLers lift heavy weights without gear and

they're not getting hurt. You might say it's because they're not using as

much weight as PL, which is true, but I already explained the reason for

that above. As a side note: if you made the top PLers squat raw using OL

style, they would be about even - except for maybe Coan Dimas front

squats 300kg at 85kg body weight. I suspect not many 181 pound PLers could

top that.

Another safety point to consider is the ballistic nature of OL, and the fact

that the bar is lifted overhead in a standing unsupported position. There

is a lot more that can (and does) go wrong during a snatch or clean and jerk

than in the three power lifts. But even when a heavy Olympic lift does go

bad, it's not that big of a deal to escape unharmed.

TMcC....

This is not even Olympic lifting. We have our own bars, our own weights,

our own squat racks, or own equipment and our own rules. We have no desire to

be Olympic lifters or even look like them.

EB....

Hey, are you saying OLers don't look very good!

TMcC....

In Texas it is the fastest growing sport in our high schools. We now have

about 200 high school that have started powerlifting teams in the state of

Texas and most have also incorporated powerlifting into their athletic training

programs, pushing the O-lifts out the training room door.

EB....

Probably because it's (OL) technically too difficult to perform and coach.

Most OL training programs are more difficult in several ways than most PL

programs, which is a big turn off to kids. I know PL is more popular than OL in

this country,but it would be a sad day if PL was the only Iron Sport ever

presented to kids.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

Dave Tate wrote...

This is one debate I do not want to be a part of. I am pro equipment and

will always be and there will always be those who are against it. I

understand and respect that. To address the above question, How many Masters

weightlifters are there compared with powerlifters? I could be wrong here

because I do not know the numbers, but IF there are more Master

powerlifters,

could that longevity be due to the equipment?

Dave,

There are a lot of masters WLers too, they just aren't very good. Master

PLers can probably compete across a wider age spectrum since there is not

much of a speed component to PL.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

*** inline...

Burkhardt wrote:

>

> Burkhardt wrote:

>

<SNIP>

> I have a poster in my weight room of a Russian weightlifter (I'm

> guessing

> 90kg (198lbs) class) squatting 300kg (661lbs). Sometimes I have kids

> who

> are in awe of that poster and ask what is the most that anyone's ever

> squatted. I usually tell them that it's well over a thousand pounds,

> but I

> also tell them about how it was done with a " special suit " that may

> have

> contributed up to about 10%. I also tell them that it was done using

> a

> technique which allows more weight to be lifted and one that is quite

> different to the technique I teach them. I also tell them that the

> technique I teach them (Olympic style) is better for athletes - just

> my

> opinion.

>

*** Are we accounting for pharmaceutical help and or the incredibly

small percentage of lifters that could ever perform at that level

equipped/enhanced or not? In either OL or PL? If you're going to throw

out extenuating circumstances, lets get them all on the table...

> I care about the suit issue because the suit inflates lifts and

> distorts

> reality in the minds the athletes I teach the squat to.

*** Heeled shoes, special " whippy " bars, belts (in some cases), neoprene

sleeves, etc., don't count as equipment? Sounds like the OL's are being

inflated due to specialized equipment as well.

If I get a (male) 170lb kid to perform a beautiful, deep, Olympic style

back squat with

> 365lbs, he should be very proud. If he gets wind of what the world

> record

> squat in PL is for his weight class, it becomes important for him to

> understand the differences between the two performances.

>

*** So expound upon the differences and teach PL technique as well.

Again irregardless of equipment. Certain body types may be able to

develop greater strength using different techniques.

<SNIP>

> EB....

>

> I think there are a fair number of PLers who are opposed to gear as

> well.

>

*** To my way of thinking, RAW and traditional powerlifting are 2

different sports. The main movement is essentialy the same, but the

technique varies with or without equipment. Choose whichever variation

is more fun/satisfying - or do both. As part of a conditioning program

for other sport(s), raw PL and raw OL both have their uses. As a sport

themselves, they can't be compared because the goals are not the same.

Equipment is part of both sports!

> TMcC....

>

<SNIP>

> take blows, many of which are unanticipated.

>

> Another thing to consider is that OLers lift heavy weights without

> gear and

> they're not getting hurt.

*** They aren't? Where does this figure come from and how does the

injury rate compare with powerlifting? Where do you see powerlifters

being hurt more than olympic lifters?

You might say it's because they're not

> using as

> much weight as PL, which is true, but I already explained the reason

> for

> that above. As a side note: if you made the top PLers squat raw using

> OL

> style, they would be about even - except for maybe Coan Dimas

> front

> squats 300kg at 85kg body weight. I suspect not many 181 pound PLers

> could

> top that.

>

*** Again there is specialized equipment involved...

> Another safety point to consider is the ballistic nature of OL, and

> the fact

> that the bar is lifted overhead in a standing unsupported position.

> There

> is a lot more that can (and does) go wrong during a snatch or clean

> and jerk

> than in the three power lifts. But even when a heavy Olympic lift

> does go

> bad, it's not that big of a deal to escape unharmed.

>

<SNIP>

>

> TMcC....

>

> In Texas it is the fastest growing sport in our high schools. We now

> have

> about 200 high school that have started powerlifting teams in the

> state of

> Texas and most have also incorporated powerlifting into their athletic

> training programs, pushing the O-lifts out the training room door.

>

> EB....

>

> Probably because it's (OL) technically too difficult to perform and

> coach.

> Most OL training programs are more difficult in several ways than most

> PL programs, which is a big turn off to kids. I know PL is more

> popular than OL in this country,but it would be a sad day if PL was

> the only Iron Sport ever presented to kids.

>

*** That's actually a positive aspect of PL in High schools as opposed

to OL. *** Please note I am not saying OL should not be taught! ***

More kids can participate, including ones with physical limitations that

would preclude serious OL! Both forms of training build strength,

equipped or not, but PL, because it is easier to teach technique, is

more accessible to a larger population.

*** To draw this response back on topic: Powerlifting equipment inflates

lifts - yes, but so does the specialty equipment used in OL. Raw PL is

to PL what OL without oscillating bars, high heels, etc. is to OL.

Shafer

Converse, TX

_________________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Voodoo Chile wrote...

<<In the years to come, something new will come along and the steriod crowd

will get left

behind as well(my bet is something to do with genetics). >>

I love training for performance. I love weightlifting. I love exercise

physiology, kinesiology, biomechanics and anatomy. I love all these things,

but if I live to see the day when genetic engineering is used as an

ergogenic aid I will hate them all.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

Shafer writes....

<<*** To draw this response back on topic: Powerlifting equipment inflates

lifts - yes, but so does the specialty equipment used in OL. Raw PL is

to PL what OL without oscillating bars, high heels, etc. is to OL.>>

Admittedly, bar oscillation can be used to aid the jerk, but it doesn't help

in the snatch.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

Mreifkind@... wrote:

>Dont forget- gear is fun! Guys wear it cause it makes them feel

>stronger to move heavier numbers,whether they truly are or not. It is

>all about ego, whatever the form.Not a judgement, just and

>observation.I loved my bench shirt!LOL

Good points Mark. When I have equipment on I not only feel good, but I feel

stronger. Feeling strong usually equates to a good day in the gym.......and

let's face it, if it weren't for stroking our egos, none of us would bother

subjecting ourselves to this.

[Guest guest]

Look at the bright side. IIRC, 5 lift meets seem to be catching on, at least in

parts of California (C & J, Squat, Snatch, DL, BP). I think that would be the

true all-round test - and fun too...

Shafer

Converse, TX

RE: Bench Press Shirts

Shafer writes....

<<*** To draw this response back on topic: Powerlifting equipment inflates

lifts - yes, but so does the specialty equipment used in OL. Raw PL is

to PL what OL without oscillating bars, high heels, etc. is to OL.>>

Admittedly, bar oscillation can be used to aid the jerk, but it doesn't help

in the snatch.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

yosef_j@... wrote:

>Are these individuals drug tested? And are they not equipped? There

>is a huge difference if they are not. The water is muddied when there

>is not an absolute measurement. The shirt can easily add 50lbs to a

>bench and drugs can add even more. I would feel very confident having

>Ron compete against anyone in the 198lb in a drug free and unequipped

>event.

I assume everyone is drug free unless it is proven otherwise. So I won't even

bother commenting on someting I can't prove. As for as being equipped since

the rules in most all federations allow the use of equipment, it really

doesn't matter. If you don't wear a shirt and the next guys does and beats

you, then your unequipped bench doesn't mean a whole lot to anyone but you.

Unlike a VERY FEW people believe, this sport isn't about what you can do in a

T-shirt. It is how much you total while lifting within the rules. Put

yourself at a disadvantage in any sport and you have no one to point the

finger at but yourself. Either way you look at it, 198'er like Halbert and

Watterman that can bench 625-650 lbs could still do quite a bit more that 450

in a T-shirt. Ron is has a respectable bench. However, if he wants to take on

the big dogs, then he had better be prepared to do what ever it takes to get

there. If not, then the WDFPF is a great place to lift.

[Guest guest]

VoodooChile [raelsixty4@...] wrote:

>Now I could be completely wrong...wouldn't be the first time, but is

>powerlifting not a sport that tests the strength of an individual? Is that

>not the " point " of the sport?

The " point " of the sport is to get the biggest total you can while doing it

within the rules. It's not about some strength test. If you want to test

your strength then have a Kinesiologist run some strength test on you.

>Consequently, *if* one does view PLing as a sport designed to test one's

>brute strength, then the use of any/all assisted equipment should be viewed

>as just that: assisted PLing.

Since equipment is part of this sport, how about just POWERLIFTING? For all

of you that think it is assisted, how about you take a bench press shirt and

place it under a bar loaded with 135 lbs and see how far it moves.

>If such assistance equipment is accepted,

>then why not accept drugs usage as well (as some Feds do)?

I've got to ask you the same thing I ask ...are you even a powerlifter?

From what I remember you saying on the Strength list is that you just started

dabbling in it? Hmmmmmmmmm.....any way there is not ONE federation that

accepts or condones drug use. The fact that they don't choose to test doesn't

meany anything except that the meet directors don't care to pay about $60 out

of the slim pickings that they make off a meet to run a drug test on someone.

Often times that may mean that they go broke. The fact that a federation does

drug test also doesn't mean whole lot. I know of about 5 or 6 easy ways to

beat them. The difference between drug use and equipment use is possession of

steroids without a prescription is a felony. Possession of equipment is

completely legal and its use allowed by most all federations. Nothing

uncommon for your anti-equipment people to try to lump equipment and drugs

together. This tactic has been going on for a few years now. It doesn't

float very well.

>Hang a couple bands from a power rack

>and I'll show you a 155 pound lifter (me) squating with 1000 on my back.

>Merely me and some assistance equipment.

See Mel, what I mean about degrading and demeaning remarks. Oh well nothing I

haven't heard before. Look my friend, if you think equipment works like that

then I will buy you all the equipment you can get on just to watch you put a

1000 lbs on you back and walk out of a rack with it. As a matter of fact, I

might pitch in a little cash too. You may need it to help cover some of your

doctor bills. LOL!

>But I *do* get tired of people defending

>equipment use while ignoring the plain and simple fact that it *is*

>*assisting* the lift,

LOL! Excuse me, but I am the only one on this list that has been defending my

use of equipment. I have never said one time that I don't use equipment to

increase my total. OF COURSE THAT IS THE MAIN REASON. It is you

anti-equipment people that keep ignoring what we are saying. Perhaps by

choice?

>It takes very little thought at all to realize that

>a lift completed RAW is almost always a better test, or more correctly,

>will produce a truer RM of a person's strength than a lift completed with a

>suit.

LOL! You haven't figured it out yet. WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN A TRUE 1RM.

This isn't part of some college lab experiment. This is a sport to see who

can get the biggest total while performing the required lifts within the

rules. Now read this part: THE RULES ALLOW EQUIPMENT. The overwhelming

majority of us approve of this and are completely happy with this. The only

thing that has changed is that within the past 7 or 8 year a few sour grapes

that couldn't win a meet if someone put a gun to their heads went off finger

pointing about the other guys having better equipment. So instead of doing

the logical and getting the same equipment and working even harder in the gym,

they picked up their toys and formed another federation so they could finally

win meets and claim to be world champs. The so called " raw " movement is dying

faster than a June Beatle in an Alaskan winter.

>Of course, as a non-competing lifter, few see beyond that and consider me a

> " wanna-be " or discount me completely.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.....no comment.