RE: Re: Ban the Bench Press?

[Guest guest]

Rather than taking an approach that dissects the muscles involved in

benching, the ROM for each muscle, leverage considerations, etc., etc., and

how these physiological considerations translate to the specifics of various

sport specific considerations (though these are certainly important

considerations), I'd like to suggest a more fundamental reason for

incorporating benching for athletes.

Any exercise that involves several muscle groups, particularly when trained

for maximal strength development, will be of benefit to the athlete (is there

ever an instance in which a person can be too strong?). This would fall into

the realm of developing functional strength, which I feel cannot be developed

comprehensively by only doing highly sport specific and/or movement specific

exercises. This especially when considering that many open skill sports

[games (FB, BB, BB, etc.), wrestling, etc.] are highly dynamic where specific

movement patterns are hard to predict, anticipate, or train for. In this

instance, overall conditioning/strength development must be the key and the

bench press plays as important a role as any exercise.

Dan Wagman, Ph.D., C.S.C.S.

[Guest guest]

Personally, I think there is some value to the bench. Specifity is not

crucial.

I mean , let me ask when you actually press something overhead in

most sports? So the only real advantage something like the press has

over the bench is it is done on your feet.

Having said that, the bench has should not be an exercise emphasized,

IMO. I coach wrestling and there is some value to the bench in

wrestling. Specifically developing strength for hand-fighting. But I

would not emphasize the bench, since pulling and squatting are much more

important. Squats, snatches, cleans, pulls of all sorts, presses, and

jerks all come before the bench press in developing speed and strength

for this sport.

Since my daughter is also a powerlifter she does do the bench. Once

again, she also does the other exercises cited above.

My .02 ...

Burkhardt wrote:

>

> Now that I have your attention, I'd like to get your opinion of the bench

> press. What athletically desirable qualities do you feel are developed by

> bench pressing? How does it's value vary among different sports? In other

> words, when is bench press strength most valuable? Can you site situations

> from wrestling, gymnastics? What about other contact sports that are played

> in an upright position (i.e. football, soccer, rugby or basketball)? How

> much does bench press benefit football line play? What about non-contact

> weight bearing sports (i.e. volleyball, tennis)? How much, or how little

> does bench press strength improve athletic performance? Looking forward to

> your responses.

>

> Burkhardt

> Strength and Conditioning Coach

> UC Irvine

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Several years ago I was speaking with Jeff Everson, better known as the

former Ms. Cory Everson, (please don't take this as if we were old buddies,

just happen to attend the same function) and the topic of specificity of

exercise as related to sport was brought up. Jeff stated that he felt that

a low angle incline Bench press should be a mainstay for both football

offensive linemen, to develop the strength to keep defensive linemen away

and for defensive linemen to keep offensive linemen off of them.

I tend to agree. I also feel that dumbbell bench presses and incline

dumbbell bench presses would be of similar benefit to lineman and

linebackers and maybe even running backs to some extent.

It is my opinion, that in any sport in which physical contact is expected,

be it football, wrestling, martial arts, boxing, soccer, even basketball

(i.e. S. O'Neal)a muscle imbalance should be avoided and a participant

should work each muscle group.

If only sport specific movements are to be used, I then have to ask how,

whether there is a direct correlation between sport specific movement and

the exercise, be it bench press, squat, deadlift, pulls, cleans, snatches,

etc. or not, can strength increase in any exercise not be beneficial.

Joe Littleton

Re: Re: Ban the Bench Press?

Personally, I think there is some value to the bench. Specifity is not

crucial.

I mean , let me ask when you actually press something overhead in

most sports? So the only real advantage something like the press has

over the bench is it is done on your feet.

Having said that, the bench has should not be an exercise emphasized,

IMO. I coach wrestling and there is some value to the bench in

wrestling. Specifically developing strength for hand-fighting. But I

would not emphasize the bench, since pulling and squatting are much more

important. Squats, snatches, cleans, pulls of all sorts, presses, and

jerks all come before the bench press in developing speed and strength

for this sport.

Since my daughter is also a powerlifter she does do the bench. Once

again, she also does the other exercises cited above.

My .02 ...

Burkhardt wrote:

>

> Now that I have your attention, I'd like to get your opinion of the bench

> press. What athletically desirable qualities do you feel are developed by

> bench pressing? How does it's value vary among different sports? In

other

> words, when is bench press strength most valuable? Can you site

situations

> from wrestling, gymnastics? What about other contact sports that are

played

> in an upright position (i.e. football, soccer, rugby or basketball)? How

> much does bench press benefit football line play? What about non-contact

> weight bearing sports (i.e. volleyball, tennis)? How much, or how little

> does bench press strength improve athletic performance? Looking forward

to

> your responses.

>

> Burkhardt

> Strength and Conditioning Coach

> UC Irvine

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hobman wrote....

<<Personally, I think there is some value to the bench. Specifity is not

crucial.>>

...

Hi . I totally agree with your statement above that b.p. does have

significant value for athletes - some more than others. Please keep in mind

though that in the body of my original post, I did not make any negative

statements regarding the bench press. I purposefully tried to keep my

personal opinion out of it. Granted the subject line was negative (it was

even worse before Mel changed it - sorry Mel), but that was only to draw

attention and hopefully get people to respond

...

<<I mean , let me ask when you actually press something overhead in

most sports? So the only real advantage something like the press has

over the bench is it is done on your feet.>>

...

Good comment regarding the lack of overhead pressing in sports - your point

is well taken. There are probably more non-athletic applications of

overhead pressing; for example, putting a heavy bag in the overhead bin on

an airplane. Perhaps the " athletically valuable " quality that is developed

by overhead pressing that is not developed by the bench press is the

accessory muscle strength required to maintain a solid base (the dreaded

" core stability " ) so that the shoulder girdle musculature can effectively

exert force. Certainly during heavy bench press, one must " rigidify " the

torso segment to effectively transmit shoulder girdle forces to the bar.

This act however is likely far more necessary during free-standing overhead

pressing and even more so during push pressing and jerking. The additional

" upside " to push pressing and jerking is now you're " teaching " the nervous

system to transmit explosive leg-hip power through the torso segment to the

upper extremity.

In addition, the accessory muscular development that occurs from having to

maintain balance is probably also significant - especially if you want to

throw a little of Mel's " imperfection training " in there.

To summarize, one must question the importance of training upper body

pushing strength from a supine, passively supported position.

...

<<Having said that, the bench has should not be an exercise emphasized,

IMO. I coach wrestling and there is some value to the bench in

wrestling. Specifically developing strength for hand-fighting. But I

would not emphasize the bench, since pulling and squatting are much more

important. Squats, snatches, cleans, pulls of all sorts, presses, and

jerks all come before the bench press in developing speed and strength

for this sport.>>

...

Again, I totally agree with your comments regarding the importance of b.p.

in wrestling. With regards to the second half of your paragraph above, I

like how you think. If I were an athletic director, I'd hire you for

strength coach in two seconds!

...

<<Since my daughter is also a powerlifter she does do the bench. Once

again, she also does the other exercises cited above.>>

Ever thought getting your daughter into OL? She could be a " Two-Sport Iron

Game Athlete " and follow in the foot steps of Shane Hamman

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

Dan Wagman, Ph.D., C.S.C.S. wrote...

<<Rather than taking an approach that dissects the muscles involved in

benching, the ROM for each muscle, leverage considerations, etc., etc., and

how these physiological considerations translate to the specifics of various

sport specific considerations (though these are certainly important

considerations), I'd like to suggest a more fundamental reason for

incorporating benching for athletes.

Any exercise that involves several muscle groups, particularly when trained

for maximal strength development, will be of benefit to the athlete (is

there

ever an instance in which a person can be too strong?). This would fall into

the realm of developing functional strength, which I feel cannot be

developed

comprehensively by only doing highly sport specific and/or movement specific

exercises. This especially when considering that many open skill sports

[games (FB, BB, BB, etc.), wrestling, etc.] are highly dynamic where

specific

movement patterns are hard to predict, anticipate, or train for. In this

instance, overall conditioning/strength development must be the key and the

bench press plays as important a role as any exercise.>>

Excellent points Dan. Even though it is the bench that " artificially " and

" passively " supports the body, it is also the bench that permits the use of

extremely (unfortunately not in my case however) heavy weights. IMO, any

exercise that allows one to lift heavy is always a good thing.

Realistically however, there are probably not too many situations in

life/sport (outside of bench pressing itself of course) where one is able to

fully use his/her bench pressing strength.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

wrote,

>...

>

>Please keep in mind

>though that in the body of my original post, I did not make any negative

>statements regarding the bench press. I purposefully tried to keep my

>personal opinion out of it. Granted the subject line was negative (it was

>even worse before Mel changed it - sorry Mel), but that was only to draw

>attention and hopefully get people to respond

Great post and nothing negative at all.

>

>Perhaps the " athletically valuable " quality that is developed

>by overhead pressing that is not developed by the bench press is the

>accessory muscle strength required to maintain a solid base (the dreaded

> " core stability " ) so that the shoulder girdle musculature can effectively

>exert force. Certainly during heavy bench press, one must " rigidify " the

>torso segment to effectively transmit shoulder girdle forces to the bar.

>This act however is likely far more necessary during free-standing overhead

>pressing and even more so during push pressing and jerking. The additional

> " upside " to push pressing and jerking is now you're " teaching " the nervous

>system to transmit explosive leg-hip power through the torso segment to the

>upper extremity.

Yes, I agree. Although the bench press as I teach it to the wrestlers takes

advantage of their ability to bridge and is definately a whole body

exercise!

>

>In addition, the accessory muscular development that occurs from having to

>maintain balance is probably also significant - especially if you want to

>throw a little of Mel's " imperfection training " in there.

Good point.

>

>To summarize, one must question the importance of training upper body

>pushing strength from a supine, passively supported position.

Yes, if that is all you are doing.

>

>

>Ever thought getting your daughter into OL? She could be a " Two-Sport Iron

>Game Athlete " and follow in the foot steps of Shane Hamman

Yup. It was her idea though. At 15, I don't get my daughter to do anything.

One strong-willed young lady...

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

Grip it and rip it!

[Guest guest]

I may be straying a little from the intent of 's original post, but how do

you feel about Hammer Strength's standing chest press (I believe the ground

based jammer)? I've not had the opportunity to work out on one of these, but it

seems to me that it is a nice progression from the flat bench toward a more

activity specific exercise. If I'm not mistaken, it also provides the potential

for both bilateral and unilateral movements.

I don't think that the bench press itself is a bad exercise. Perhaps the

emphasis and attention it receives is the bigger problem, sometimes at the

expense of how it relates to performance. There are plenty of offensive linemen

who can bench press your house, but if they don't have the footwork and balance

and torso/butt to help deliver all that strength(power) to a rushing defensive

end, it doesn't bode well for the quarterback. Is someone's 1 RM on the jammer

a " better " evaluation of what their pushing strength is like in an upright

position?

Sorry to get off-track a bit.

Bob Helfst

Muncie, IN

RE: Re: Ban the Bench Press?

Dan Wagman, Ph.D., C.S.C.S. wrote....

<<Rather than taking an approach that dissects the muscles involved in

benching, the ROM for each muscle, leverage considerations, etc., etc., and

how these physiological considerations translate to the specifics of various

sport specific considerations (though these are certainly important

considerations), I'd like to suggest a more fundamental reason for

incorporating benching for athletes..

Any exercise that involves several muscle groups, particularly when trained

for maximal strength development, will be of benefit to the athlete (is

there

ever an instance in which a person can be too strong?). This would fall into

the realm of developing functional strength, which I feel cannot be

developed

comprehensively by only doing highly sport specific and/or movement specific

exercises. This especially when considering that many open skill sports

[games (FB, BB, BB, etc.), wrestling, etc.] are highly dynamic where

specific

movement patterns are hard to predict, anticipate, or train for. In this

instance, overall conditioning/strength development must be the key and the

bench press plays as important a role as any exercise.>>

Excellent points Dan. Even though it is the bench that " artificially " and

" passively " supports the body, it is also the bench that permits the use of

extremely (unfortunately not in my case however) heavy weights. IMO, any

exercise that allows one to lift heavy is always a good thing..

Realistically however, there are probably not too many situations in

life/sport (outside of bench pressing itself of course) where one is able to

fully use his/her bench pressing strength..

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

Hobman <khobman@...> wrote:

> Although the bench press as I teach it to the wrestlers takes

> advantage of their ability to bridge and is definately a whole body

> exercise!

Speaking of bridging and bench press, if you look in Hackenschmidt's

The Way to Live (from about 100 years ago), he recommends a kind of

bench press (sans bench) from a bridge.

I don't tend to get all " Chicken Little " about " dangerous " exercises,

but that one scares me.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Bob Helfst wrote...

<<I may be straying a little from the intent of 's original post, but

how do you feel about Hammer Strength's standing chest press (I believe the

ground based jammer)? I've not had the opportunity to work out on one of

these, but it seems to me that it is a nice progression from the flat bench

toward a more activity specific exercise. If I'm not mistaken, it also

provides the potential for both bilateral and unilateral movements.>>

Yes I think the Hammer Jammer is an interesting and useful piece of

equipment.

<<I don't think that the bench press itself is a bad exercise. Perhaps the

emphasis and attention it receives is the bigger problem,>>

Agreed 100% - I think you're right on the money. I think the bench press is

a fantastic exercise even with its shortcomings. You are absolutely right

that it gets way more praise than it deserves. When the subject of strength

is brought up, when was the last time you heard an NFL commentator gloat

about how much a player can power clean or squat? It's always bench press,

bench press, bench press!

<<sometimes at the expense of how it relates to performance. There are

plenty of offensive linemen who can bench press your house, but if they

don't have the footwork and balance and torso/butt to help deliver all that

strength(power) to a rushing defensive end, it doesn't bode well for the

quarterback.>>

Well said! A linemen who only has a big bench press will get worked all day

by an opposing linemen with a mediocre bench, big power clean, squat and

deadlift (assuming they are both equally skilled). Despite this fact,

athletes and coaches will continue to misunderstand and overemphasize the

importance of " upper body strength " .

I think part of the reason for the bench press' undeserved popularity is

that most athletes are willing to " work hard " the bench press because it's

easy to do. I put " work hard " in quotes because a hard bench press workout

is still easier than an easy squat workout:)

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

Burkhardt <emburkha@...> wrote:

> Now that I have your attention, I'd like to get your opinion of the

> bench press. What athletically desirable qualities do you feel are

> developed by bench pressing?

Pushing strength -- at least the pec/delt/tri portion of it. It

doesn't build the ab, back, hip, and leg strength though, just the

upper-body portion.

> How does it's value vary among different sports?

Tremendously. American football linemen and sumo wrestlers depend on

such pushing (although an incline variation might be more specific).

Other athletes might use many of those same muscles, but not in the

same context. E.g. tennis players obviously use the pecs to swing,

but not with the triceps.

In most cases, the strength built by bench pressing works with torso

and leg strength. A boxer benefits from strong pecs, delts, and

tris, but obviously gets the bulk of his power from his larger and

stronger hips and legs.

> How much, or how little does bench press strength improve athletic

> performance?

It helps plenty, but not for all sports, and definitely not in a

vacuum. No NFL linemen pushes back the defensive line with just a

strong bench. He needs a base to push from, and that's where all

those squats and cleans come into play.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hobman <khobman@...> wrote:

> I mean , let me ask when you actually press something overhead

> in most sports? So the only real advantage something like the press

> has over the bench is it is done on your feet.

This points out the fact that gravity always points down. Ideally,

we'd perform a bench press standing, against horizontal resistance,

but the weights don't generally oblige. If you build a machine where

you actually push weights horizontally, that doesn't change the fact

that gravity only pulls them down; you're just overcoming their

inertia, not their weight. If you try to use a cable machine, the

weight stack travels up and down -- that's good -- but it can get

awkward if you let the stack gather up much momentum behind your

back. You're stuck holding some low-mass handles until the stack

whips you back and rips out your shoulders.

Perhaps we should be training football linemen with cable stacks and

elastic bands?

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Burkhardt <emburkha@...> wrote:

> Perhaps the " athletically valuable " quality that is developed

> by overhead pressing that is not developed by the bench press is

> the accessory muscle strength required to maintain a solid base

(the

> dreaded " core stability " ) so that the shoulder girdle musculature

> can effectively exert force.

That " Russian style " Olympic press is looking like a better and

better movement for athletes. It's a standing bench/incline after

all...

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Namgawd@... wrote:

> This especially when considering that many open skill sports

> [games (FB, BB, BB, etc.), wrestling, etc.] are highly dynamic

> where specific movement patterns are hard to predict, anticipate,

> or train for. In this instance, overall conditioning/strength

> development must be the key and the bench press plays as important

> a role as any exercise.

I think you make an important point. The more " open " the skills

involved, the less specific you can hope to be in your strength

training. Hitting all the major muscles with compound movements

seems to work just fine.

How does this all tie in with the various " neuromuscular " aspects of

training. The HIT crowd generally presents " strength " and " skill " as

two completely unrelated areas. Any skill you gain at lifting

weights may help you demonstrate more strength (in Olympic

weightlifting, for instance), but that skill won't carry over to

other activities; only your raw strength (from hypertrophy) will.

Of course, on the other hand, we have evidence that quick lifts

(power cleans, jump squats) help vertical leap more than slower lifts

(squats). Is that simply because the ballistic movements load the

correct muscles in the correct proportions for jumping, or do these

neuromuscular factors carry over from lifting to jumping (or

throwing, or blocking, or whatever)? You wouldn't, after all, expect

a skilled athlete to improve his skill in his specialty by doing

something else.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Bob Helfst <bob@...> wrote:

> I may be straying a little from the intent of 's original post,

> but how do you feel about Hammer Strength's standing chest press (I

> believe the ground based jammer)? I've not had the opportunity to

> work out on one of these, but it seems to me that it is a nice

> progression from the flat bench toward a more activity specific

> exercise. If I'm not mistaken, it also provides the potential for

> both bilateral and unilateral movements.

Isn't it plate-loaded, like most of Hammer's equipment? And you move

the plate-loaded bars more-or-less directly, right? It's not a cable

machine. In that case, I suspect it's a lot like their other

ego-boosting machines. Since you're not moving the weight

vertically, but gravity is still only pulling vertically down, you're

just overcoming inertia. If you don't know how quickly you're

accelerating the load, you really have no idea how much " weight "

you're pushing.

> I don't think that the bench press itself is a bad exercise.

> Perhaps the emphasis and attention it receives is the bigger

> problem, sometimes at the expense of how it relates to performance.

Absolutely.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Matt Madsen wrote...

<<In most cases, the strength built by bench pressing works with torso

and leg strength. A boxer benefits from strong pecs, delts, and

tris, but obviously gets the bulk of his power from his larger and

stronger hips and legs.>>

Burkhardt...

> How much, or how little does bench press strength improve athletic

> performance?

M.M....

<<It helps plenty, but not for all sports, and definitely not in a

vacuum. No NFL linemen pushes back the defensive line with just a

strong bench. He needs a base to push from, and that's where all

those squats and cleans come into play.>>

E.B.....

Agreed. I have a couple comments/questions to add. One of the problems I

continually have to deal with is the misunderstanding many coaches and

athletes have regarding upper body strength. Many believe that all you need

is a big bench press to " man handle " opponents during participation in

(upright standing) physical contact sports. This attitude and lack of

understanding is why many athletes continue to make a half assed effort in

squatting or OLs, but will do bench presses until their nipples pop off! To

make matters worse, when athletes find out how hard a squat and OL workout

is it gives them a convenient excuse to slack off even more on the most

productive exercises. They'll " work real hard " though on the bench press

where they get to lay down. When you couple this attitude with a coaching

staff that measures the success of the weight program by how much their

players can bench press, you've got a tough situation for a strength coach.

I will still argue that an athlete (in which the sport is played on the

feet) with a big bench press will never see an opportunity to fully utilize

it. I agree with your comment above about needing a " base to push from " and

that squats and cleans may be the best exercises to develop that, but I

don't think that development of the " base " in this way automatically allows

one to make full use of their bench pressing ability. This is a little like

saying that doing the leg press along with a bunch of back extensions and

abdominal work is a good as doing squats. In other words, during bench

pressing, you are still not " practicing " the use of upper body pushing

strength the way it will eventually be needed. I still think that the

" transfer " of bench pressing strength to the unsupported weight bearing

posture is still somewhat limited even with the inclusion of a solid squat

and OL program. Pushing up a barbell in a non-weight bearing passively

supported position is a lot different from having to do it standing up.

Having said all that, I still think the BP is a good exercise and should be

included. It's a terrific shoulder strengthener and allows large weights to

be lifted requiring a large number of M.U.s to be recruited. I liked Dan

Wagman's comments about " the stronger the better " . I also think it has some

limitations that need to be recognized - especially by sport coaches and

athletes.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine