Guest guest Posted October 2, 2000 Report Share Posted October 2, 2000 If it's real creatine you will retain some water. The ONLY real creatine is creatine monohydrate. That " serum " you use is not doing you any good...hence no water retention either. Just remember that your MD is a physician and probably doesn't study sport's medicine nor keeps up on sports medicine research. If you call EAS and ask for a copy of the Supplement Review, it is a very thorough literature review of the current studies.,...especially on creatine. Noted and footnoted are specific clinical studies of what works and what doesn't. Creatine serum is sited as being a rip-off because creatine is not stable in a liquid form. I also go with what the pro's use....like football players and world class athletes. MOST college teams, and ALL pro teams use CREATINE MONOHYDRATE. That's good for me. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2000 Report Share Posted October 2, 2000 I've been researching the creatine serum. My MD does not approve of Betagen because of water retention. Here's the website for creatine serum: http://www.creatine.com/ You can also read the FDA medwatch reports about adverse affects of powdered creatine. http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/aems.html#search In the October 20, 1998 SN/AEMS Web Report there are a total of 2621 adverse events. In the October 20, 1998 SN/AEMS Web Report there are a total of 3451 products. I read an article in a medical journal last week that said some of the NFL teams have banned the use of powdered creatine because of adverse affects like muscle cramping, nausea, and cardiac arrhythmia's. Remember: each company will bad mouth the other and say their products are superior over the competition. It's the nature of the beast. Glenda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2000 Report Share Posted October 3, 2000 Hi Glenda! In your messages, you've mentioned a number of points that people would do well to keep in mind, and I'm grateful that you have. It's certainly wise to follow the advice of a sports-knowledgeable physician, to read and compare research from different sources, and to educate oneself and to make up one's own mind about which supplements to take. It's also exactly right to keep one's health and well-being at the forefront of one's decision making. You've also said the following though in your last two posts, and I want to comment on this: <<Of course each company is going to bad mouth each other's products. It's just the nature of business.>> You are right that some people can - and do - fall prey to the temptation to say whatever they think will best promote the sales of their company. You are also right that, given this possibility, it's wise to seek out independent review of a company's claims. That said, one of the greatest assets any company has is its reputation. Those who give into the temptation to " say anything " to boost sales run a huge risk. They may boost sales in the short run. But to the extent that such unscrupulous vendors are proven to have made misleading claims, wise customers will soon flock to more reputable sources for their products. It's often impossible for a company to recover from such a damaged reputation - and justly so. Wise business people therefore regard truth in advertising as one of the most critical assets they possess with which to boost sales and profits. Furthermore, people have free will and are responsible for their own actions. I don't consider it a valid excuse to say, " I said this, not because I believe that it's true, but because I wanted to promote my company's product. " This is a serious matter of personal and professional ethics, and I regard it as critical that people be truthful and take responsibility for what they say. Consequently, although you are wise to caution people to look for second opinions and independent information, I disagree that people are destined by " the nature of business " to be untruthful. On the contrary, people are free to say and do whatever they want. There certainly do exist countless, utterly honest business people with laudable integrity who value their reputations, not merely because of the competitive edge it gives them, but because they pride themselves on being good people. Such people couldn't look themselves in the mirror if they lived any way other than truthfully. Regarding another element of the creatine serum vs. powder issue: it's a fact that even highly educated experts will disagree sometimes about the safest, most advisable supplementation strategy. Even assuming that a given company is composed of honest individuals who treasure the truth and strive to behave professionally and honorably in every aspect of their work - people are still capable of honest error and honest difference of opinion. And people have a right to make honest mistakes. Again, all this underscores the wisdom of your advice that each person examine the facts and make up one's own mind. You strike me as a person who is doing the right things insofar as consulting your physician, educating yourself and pursuing your fitness and supplementation strategy wisely. And for that, I applaud you, both for the good that you are doing for yourself, and for the good example that you are setting. Energetically, Axel Fitness and the Mind-Body Connection an unofficial support site for Body-for-LIFErs by and Cherita Axel http://fitmind.home.mindspring.com/fmbconnection.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2000 Report Share Posted October 3, 2000 I trust my doc. He's the one who introduced me to BFL. Yes, he's certified in sports medicine. He's also the medical director for a very large pro sports franchise. I've read the literature and I have the supplement review. My copy is copyrighted 1997 and a lot has changed since that date.It's easy to pick out what literature you want to reference. I'm guilty of that. I wrote the education module for latex allergy for Abbott Laboratories and I only chose to use supportive literature, not the " bashing " literature. Today's MedLine search with limits of 01-01-1997 to 10-03-2000 shows 911 articles. These are not all peer reviewed literature but still a respected number of articles on creatine monohydrate. Of course each company is going to bad mouth each other's products. It's just the nature of business. Just because EAS says that creatine serum is unstable doesn't make that the truth. I just bought a new Ford Taurus and guess what, when I went shopping for cars, I test drove a Chevy Impala also and the Chevy dealer told me that Ford Taurus's were terrible cars. Buyer beware. Only an educated consumer can decide what is best for them. If Darra can use creatine serum, so can I. What a comeback for an over 30 woman. Glenda > > Subject: Re: creatine serum > > If it's real creatine you will retain some water. The ONLY real creatine is > creatine monohydrate. That " serum " you use is not doing you any good...hence > no water retention either. Just remember that your MD is a physician and > probably doesn't study sport's medicine nor keeps up on sports medicine > research. If you call EAS and ask for a copy of the Supplement Review, it is > a very thorough literature review of the current studies.,...especially on > creatine. Noted and footnoted are specific clinical studies of what works and > what doesn't. Creatine serum is sited as being a rip-off because creatine is > not stable in a liquid form. > > I also go with what the pro's use....like football players and world class > athletes. MOST college teams, and ALL pro teams use CREATINE MONOHYDRATE. > That's good for me. > > - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2000 Report Share Posted October 4, 2000 I won't use Betagen because of the possibility of water retention. I have high blood pressure. Granted, it's much less severe than it was, but I am taking no risks. I am NOT saying that Betagen is bad, it's just not for me. If there is an alternative product with less side effects, I want to know about it. I also won't use creatine monohydrate because of the MedWatch reports. I know it may sound dumb to a lot of people, but I've spent my fair share of reading those reports (especially latex related) and I automatically check these reports about anything I decide to use, including medications or nutritionals. Sports nutritionals are not regulated by the FDA like medications are. It just makes sense to investigate what you put into your body. I am glad you've had no symptoms that have been reported to the FDA. I hope no one ever has these type of problems. HMB is sold by itself and my husband and I both use it. Why are we bashing creatine serum? You don't need a glucose transport and you don't need to increase your water intake. As always, two sides to every issue. glenda > Glenda, > > Did your doctor recommend against because of the reports or because you took > it and reacted in that manner? Part of the perceived problem is quality > control, part is inadequate water consumption and part is taking higher > doses than recommended. Without knowing the specifics of each case > reported, it is difficult to draw a conclusion. > > I don't know anything about creatine serum, but I've taken over the last 9 > months, Phosphagen HP in loading and maintenance quantities per the > directions, Betagen per the directions and stacked on top of a maintenance > dosage of Phosphagen HP, a cheap off brand of Creatine Monohydrate powder at > maintenance dosage, Labrada's Creatine Cooler at maintenance dosages, and > now BetaGen at maintenance doses with Ribose stacked on top on weight > training days. So far I have had none of the symptoms you describe. > > I understand that everyone is different and you need to listen to your body, > but there have been a lot of tests on the safety and efficacy of creatine. > Much like food, if you have a sensitivity you should cut the dosage or avoid > it depending on the severity of your reaction. Several in this group have > had negative reactions to the dosage recommended on the label. Some have > discontinued, others have reduced the dosage. I have not heard of a severe > allergic reaction, which I would attribute to the fact that creatine is > present in everyone's body. Yet I do not discount that some individuals may > not tolerate BetaGen. They should avoid its use since it is not required to > have excellent results. In the test group over a 12 week period, I believe > I recall that the group that took BetaGen experienced a 35-40% increase in > lean gains vs. the control group. If you tolerate BetaGen and are looking > to accelerate results, it can be a positive addition to your supplementation > program. > > Also note that BetaGen is a stack of Creatine and HMB. Don't forget the HMB > if you are choosing to not take BetaGen as HMB has been proven to be > effective at preventing loss of lean muscle and enhance gains when taken as > directed on the container as well as promote fat loss if taken in 6-12 doses > spread over the day. > > Personally I would go with a vendor you trust that is committed to quality > control and research. There are probably a half dozen or more that are very > trustworthy, but some products have been tested and do not contain what is > represented on the label. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2000 Report Share Posted October 4, 2000 > > > Do you know of studies > regarding serum creatine that establish its effectiveness and safety? > > - Creatine serum is still creatine monohydrate and searching for relevant articles: powder vs. serum doesn't exist. I even searched the data base at the NIH to find out if there is such a study, but nutritionals are not listed. I did find a review of literature from Belgium and I'll see if our MedLibrary subscribes to that Journal. Best I can do without spending hours here at the keyboard. Glenda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2000 Report Share Posted October 4, 2000 Kit: You can access the documents from that web site listed at this URL: http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/aems.html#search Scroll down to the bottom of the page and search for creatine or you can search by the ARMS numbers listed on that web site. You'll be transferred to another page listing the ARMS number ( adverse event). You can't access the complete file unless you file a Freedom of Information Act. Once you do that, you have to pay for the copies and the shipping to your home. Once you get copies of the documents you've requested, there will be more information than what's on the web. ( You don't have any shortcomings.......they just don't make it easy for anyone to obtain the info!) Seemed like the creatine serum folks were doing the bashing as they put some report of deaths from EAS products only on the net, without any details allowing the public to reach a conclusion that those products caused the deaths. The FDA info is a voluntary reports unless people die and that's mandatory and they (FDA) don't allow too many details to be on the net. That's why you have to file a Freedom of Information Act. Deaths are reported from other companies, not just EAS. IMHO, that company should take out references to EAS off their website. Reminds me of how a certain glove company plastered my name and phone number all over their website and made reference to all of us who had filed suites and said they were allotting $75 Million to fight us. Us against the monolith. FDA documents are not protected by copyright, so I guess they can do anything they wish. Give me a couple of days to see if I can dig anything up about research. I have some friends at NIH, I'll make a few inquiries. My elementary kids are out today and tomorrow for parent/teacher conference. I don't like to spend too much time on the computer while they are home. I'm really curious about the research end also, especially when it comes to women. Glenda Seemed like the creatine serum folks were doing the bashing as they put some report of deaths from EAS products only on the net, without any details allowing the public to reach a conclusion that those products caused the deaths. EAS invests heavily in research to ensure it is a responsible manufacturer of sports supplements. I was not able to get to the details of what was reported and that may be due to my shortcomings in using the internet. I welcome information about new products and old. I'm an information nut and pour through the studies myself and welcome the contrary viewpoint. These views help to push innovation and make products that are safer and more effective. I object however to the tactics used by the makers of the serum creatine to gain market share. Just one view point. On the information side if you know of a source of studies related to serum creatine and its effectiveness I'd love any guidance in how to get access to them. Kit :=) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2000 Report Share Posted October 26, 2000 The problems these runners are having is not due to the creatine in the creatine serum, especially if they had no problems with the powder. It is very likely that the serum creatine has no creatine in it at all. Creatine is very unstable in solution and will degrade to creatinine when left in solution for a long period of time. No one has found a way to stabilize creatine in solution. It is highly likely that these runners were not even getting any creatine when they took the serum. I just got an email today from Greenwalt, owner of the PowerStore, a discount internet supplement store. He sent in the creatine serum for HPLC analysis and the serum practically contained no creatine at all. The claim on the label says 2.5 g/5 ml but HPLC analysis revealed 0.0029 g/5 ml. Also, 0.005 g/5 ml of creatinine was found in the product, and there should be no creatinine at all. It was also found that the product was 44% water and contained a large amount of glycerol. Maybe the glycerol is having some effect on these runners, if this is the same serum (from Muscle Marketing USA). Increased plasma concentrations of glycerol may draw water from the interstital space into the plasma and possible affect electrolyte balance in muscle tissue. JK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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