Power Training - Dynamic Method

[Guest guest]

>In some sports it's important to be able to perform while fatigued,

>so it might make sense to wear yourself out and keep going. You need

>to be able to perform a double-leg takedown at the end of a wrestling

>match too, for instance.

Or shooting free throws, under game conditions, in practice. Not in bunches

at the end or beginning.

Joe Alden

_________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at

http://profiles.msn.com.

[Guest guest]

Joe,

This is a great discussion. I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute.

Re: Power Training - Dynamic Method

>From: " Brett Blaney " <mpakt@...>

I have the exact same question surrounding boxing and punching dynamics. I

realize with Olympic Lifts there would a general or overall gain in speed

and power, but if the movement in the lift doesn't specifically mimic the

movement used in the sport, how well does the gains in power translate to

the sport. In this case punching power..

Alden replies:

It would seem that OL's would favor the complete (or near complete) use of

the body's neuromuscular capabilities at speed and under load. Their benfit

would not be tied to motion speciicity..

[Helfst, Bob] Why is it not tied to motion specificity? Does speed under load

in the frontal or sagittal plane necessarily transfer to the transverse?

Brett Blaney asks:

I've had the same question regarding improving hitting power in baseball or

softball. In both cases power is generated from a twisting motion generated

in the hips and continued through the torso. Most lifts do not mimic this

motion..

Alden responds:

I introduce rotational torso work (eg Russian Twist) to address not the

motion but the musclular ability to rotate. High velocity, weighted

rotational work has its own sets of complications such as space (med ball

throws), risk and neural confusion..

[Helfst, Bob] The cable column/pulley system or surgical tubing does a pretty

good job of allowing you to work in rotational patterns.

Could you please explain/clarify neural confusion?

Thanks,

Bob Helfst

Muncie, IN

Joe Alden

_________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com..

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at

http://profiles.msn.com..

[Guest guest]

Bob Helfst <bob@...> wrote:

> The cable column/pulley system or surgical tubing does a pretty

> good job of allowing you to work in rotational patterns.

>

> Could you please explain/clarify neural confusion?

The fear is that an exercise movement that's similar to a specific

sporting movement might mess up your groove. Cross-training in

racquetball might seem like a good idea for a tennis player --

they're similar sports after all -- but that similarity is what makes

the subtle differences so devestating to your technique. Wrist

straight? Wrist loose? How far out is the racquet's sweet spot

again?

It might seem like a great idea to train throwing by simply throwing

slightly heavier objects, but that can mess with the thrower's

skills.

That said, I don't see a few dozen reps of cable " ax chopping "

messing up anyone, and shotputters seem to do fine with heavy- and

light-implement training.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

RE: Power Training - Dynamic Method

Bob Helfst <bob@...> wrote:

> The cable column/pulley system or surgical tubing does a pretty

> good job of allowing you to work in rotational patterns..

>

> Could you please explain/clarify neural confusion?

The fear is that an exercise movement that's similar to a specific

sporting movement might mess up your groove. Cross-training in

racquetball might seem like a good idea for a tennis player --

they're similar sports after all -- but that similarity is what makes

the subtle differences so devestating to your technique. Wrist

straight? Wrist loose? How far out is the racquet's sweet spot

again?

It might seem like a great idea to train throwing by simply throwing

slightly heavier objects, but that can mess with the thrower's

skills..

That said, I don't see a few dozen reps of cable " ax chopping "

messing up anyone, and shotputters seem to do fine with heavy- and

light-implement training..

Matt Madsen

[Helfst, Bob] Matt,

I thought that was what Joe was referring to. I understand and agree completely

with the cross-sport training being a potential problem but I do question those

who avoid transverse plane/rotational/multiplane strengthening under the

pretense of not wanting to change the " groove. " It may be that skill-similar

patterns are emphasized in the early preparation periods of periodization and

de-emphasized as competition gets closer. I feel that the chop/lift work you

mentioned should be a component of any athlete's training program on a

consistent basis.

It is probably appropriate to mention that, as with any skill, practicing the

skill should not follow strength training for fear of fatigue causing

compensation or modification of the skill. Is this accepted by all or are there

those who practice a skill i.e. batting, free throw shooting after strength

training?

Bob Helfst

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Bob Helfst <bob@...> wrote:

> It is probably appropriate to mention that, as with any skill,

> practicing the skill should not follow strength training for fear

> of fatigue causing compensation or modification of the skill. Is

> this accepted by all or are there those who practice a skill i.e.

> batting, free throw shooting after strength training?

In some sports it's important to be able to perform while fatigued,

so it might make sense to wear yourself out and keep going. You need

to be able to perform a double-leg takedown at the end of a wrestling

match too, for instance.

Generally though, I think you're right. I also think the phenomenon

you mention is one reason weight training doesn't show positive

effects in the short term -- and athletes aren't impaired just right

after lifting, but for the next few days.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

RE: Power Training - Dynamic Method

Bob Helfst wrote:

It is probably appropriate to mention that, as with any skill, practicing the

skill should not follow strength training for fear of fatigue causing

compensation or modification of the skill. Is this accepted by all or are there

those who practice a skill i.e. batting, free throw shooting after strength

training?

Casler of BIO-FORCE writes:

It is quite common among " power/strength " sports such as discus/shot/hammer

throwers to lift (not to fatigue only high neural excitation) and then practice

throwing. This was discussed a while back on " the RING " a throwers forum.

http://www.web-ster.com/kcarr/dischat.html I personally have used it and found

it very effective.

This type of training can be quite beneficial in that it " harvests " the

residual PTR (post tetanic reflex) and helps translate the " powerful CNS

stimulation " into a motor neural sequence of higher intensity. It is imperative

however that the exercise is not carried to fatigue which would of course

" degrade the motor response pattern "

Regards,

A. Casler

BIO-FORCE, Inc.

" Sweat Happens "

[Guest guest]

RE: Power Training - Dynamic Method

Bob Helfst wrote:

It is probably appropriate to mention that, as with any skill, practicing the

skill should not follow strength training for fear of fatigue causing

compensation or modification of the skill. Is this accepted by all or are there

those who practice a skill i.e. batting, free throw shooting after strength

training?

Casler of BIO-FORCE writes:

It is quite common among " power/strength " sports such as discus/shot/hammer

throwers to lift (not to fatigue only high neural excitation) and then practice

throwing. This was discussed a while back on " the RING " a throwers forum.

http://www.web-ster.com/kcarr/dischat.html I personally have used it and found

it very effective.

This type of training can be quite beneficial in that it " harvests " the

residual PTR (post tetanic reflex) and helps translate the " powerful CNS

stimulation " into a motor neural sequence of higher intensity. It is imperative

however that the exercise is not carried to fatigue which would of course

" degrade the motor response pattern "

Regards,

A. Casler

BIO-FORCE, Inc.

" Sweat Happens "

[Guest guest]

Bob wrote,

>I thought that was what Joe was referring to. I understand and agree

>completely with the cross-sport training being a potential problem but I

>do question those who avoid transverse plane/rotational/multiplane

>strengthening under the pretense of not wanting to change the " groove. "

>It may be that skill-similar patterns are emphasized in the early

>preparation periods of periodization and de-emphasized as competition gets

>closer. I feel that the chop/lift work you mentioned should be a

>component of any athlete's training program on a consistent basis.

>

>It is probably appropriate to mention that, as with any skill, practicing

>the skill should not follow strength training for fear of fatigue causing

>compensation or modification of the skill. Is this accepted by all or are

>there those who practice a skill i.e. batting, free throw shooting after

>strength training?

Interesting. Greg Norman used to complain that he couldn't even waterski as

a pro golfer because it would adversely effect his finely tuned 'skill'

neural patterns. Yet Tiger Woods trains with weights, and his skills are

quite effective as well.

The times they are a changin'.

Makes me wonder once again on just how important the mind is in all this.

Norman couldn't do it because he thought it would hurt him and when he

tried it it became a self-fullfilling thought.

However, I certainly have to agree that doing non-specific performance

training prior to specific skill training would be a no-no. I'm waiting for

someone to come along and kill this sacred cow someday.

Cuz it seems like all the sacred cows end up on the B-B-Q.

[Guest guest]

Bob wrote,

>I thought that was what Joe was referring to. I understand and agree

>completely with the cross-sport training being a potential problem but I

>do question those who avoid transverse plane/rotational/multiplane

>strengthening under the pretense of not wanting to change the " groove. "

>It may be that skill-similar patterns are emphasized in the early

>preparation periods of periodization and de-emphasized as competition gets

>closer. I feel that the chop/lift work you mentioned should be a

>component of any athlete's training program on a consistent basis.

>

>It is probably appropriate to mention that, as with any skill, practicing

>the skill should not follow strength training for fear of fatigue causing

>compensation or modification of the skill. Is this accepted by all or are

>there those who practice a skill i.e. batting, free throw shooting after

>strength training?

Interesting. Greg Norman used to complain that he couldn't even waterski as

a pro golfer because it would adversely effect his finely tuned 'skill'

neural patterns. Yet Tiger Woods trains with weights, and his skills are

quite effective as well.

The times they are a changin'.

Makes me wonder once again on just how important the mind is in all this.

Norman couldn't do it because he thought it would hurt him and when he

tried it it became a self-fullfilling thought.

However, I certainly have to agree that doing non-specific performance

training prior to specific skill training would be a no-no. I'm waiting for

someone to come along and kill this sacred cow someday.

Cuz it seems like all the sacred cows end up on the B-B-Q.

[Guest guest]

RE: Power Training - Dynamic Method

In some sports it's important to be able to perform while fatigued,

so it might make sense to wear yourself out and keep going. You need

to be able to perform a double-leg takedown at the end of a wrestling

match too, for instance..

[Helfst, Bob] Good point. Are there some skills that are ok to fatigue and

others that shouldn't be? Are certain skills affected by fatigue more so than

others. I wanted to use the gross vs.. fine motor analogy but I'm not sure

that's quite what I'm looking for. I don't worry nearly as much about an

offensive lineman benching or squatting before practice (although surely not

ideal) as I do a pitcher lifting before throwing.

Is it necessarily fatigue that we're afraid of or is it that a different motor

pattern (established in the weight room) has temporarily taken precedent? Or is

it that a " pumped muscle " tends to limit motion or change recruitment patterns?

Thanks for kicking this around.

Bob Helfst

Generally though, I think you're right. I also think the phenomenon

you mention is one reason weight training doesn't show positive

effects in the short term -- and athletes aren't impaired just right

after lifting, but for the next few days..

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

bioforce <bioforce.inc@...> wrote:

> It is quite common among " power/strength " sports such as

> discus/shot/hammer throwers to lift (not to fatigue only high

> neural excitation) and then practice throwing. This was discussed

> a while back on " the RING " a throwers forum.

> http://www.web-ster.com/kcarr/dischat.html I personally have used

> it and found it very effective.

Ah, good point.

> This type of training can be quite beneficial in that it

> " harvests " the residual PTR (post tetanic reflex) and helps

> translate the " powerful CNS stimulation " into a motor neural

> sequence of higher intensity. It is imperative however that the

> exercise is not carried to fatigue which would of course " degrade

> the motor response pattern "

Have any pointers to more info on this? Or should I just check out

that " The Ring " site?

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

RE: Power Training - Dynamic Method

Interesting. Greg Norman used to complain that he couldn't even waterski as

a pro golfer because it would adversely effect his finely tuned 'skill'

neural patterns. Yet Tiger Woods trains with weights, and his skills are

quite effective as well..

The times they are a changin'..

Makes me wonder once again on just how important the mind is in all this..

Norman couldn't do it because he thought it would hurt him and when he

tried it it became a self-fullfilling thought..

However, I certainly have to agree that doing non-specific performance

training prior to specific skill training would be a no-no. I'm waiting for

someone to come along and kill this sacred cow someday..

[Helfst, Bob] ,

I have heard of shot putters doing cleans before they throw and seeing great

improvements. (is someone heating up the grill?)

Bob Helfst

Cuz it seems like all the sacred cows end up on the B-B-Q..

[Guest guest]

RE: Power Training - Dynamic Method

Interesting. Greg Norman used to complain that he couldn't even waterski as

a pro golfer because it would adversely effect his finely tuned 'skill'

neural patterns. Yet Tiger Woods trains with weights, and his skills are

quite effective as well..

The times they are a changin'..

Makes me wonder once again on just how important the mind is in all this..

Norman couldn't do it because he thought it would hurt him and when he

tried it it became a self-fullfilling thought..

However, I certainly have to agree that doing non-specific performance

training prior to specific skill training would be a no-no. I'm waiting for

someone to come along and kill this sacred cow someday..

[Helfst, Bob] ,

I have heard of shot putters doing cleans before they throw and seeing great

improvements. (is someone heating up the grill?)

Bob Helfst

Cuz it seems like all the sacred cows end up on the B-B-Q..

[Guest guest]

Bob Helfst <bob@...> wrote:

> Is it necessarily fatigue that we're afraid of or is it that a

> different motor pattern (established in the weight room) has

> temporarily taken precedent? Or is it that a " pumped muscle " tends

> to limit motion or change recruitment patterns?

The original issue was the different motor pattern. Neither you nor

I seem to think that's too big a deal. We seem to agree (amongst

ourselves) that fatigue would be a bigger issue.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Bob Helfst <bob@...> wrote:

> Is it necessarily fatigue that we're afraid of or is it that a

> different motor pattern (established in the weight room) has

> temporarily taken precedent? Or is it that a " pumped muscle " tends

> to limit motion or change recruitment patterns?

The original issue was the different motor pattern. Neither you nor

I seem to think that's too big a deal. We seem to agree (amongst

ourselves) that fatigue would be a bigger issue.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> Could you please explain/clarify neural confusion?

Matt Madsen's response...

The fear is that an exercise movement that's similar to a specific

sporting movement might mess up your groove. Cross-training in

racquetball might seem like a good idea for a tennis player --

they're similar sports after all -- but that similarity is what makes

the subtle differences so devestating to your technique. Wrist

straight? Wrist loose? How far out is the racquet's sweet spot

again?

Me....

Matt, do you really think if you took a group of elite tennis players and

made them play racquetball for 2 or 3 weeks (no tennis) that the results

would be " devastating " ? I beg to differ. The differences you describe

above will certainly disrupt their tennis game for a little while, but I bet

they'd be right back to their " A-game " after a few practice sessions. And

the nice thing about racquet ball is that many of the other movements

involved are either similar or identical, so there'd be minimal loss of

tennis specific conditioning. I'm not so sure I'm buyin this " devastating

neural confusion theory " .

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

Re: Power Training - Dynamic Method

Casler of BIO-FORCE wrote:

> This type of training can be quite beneficial in that it

> " harvests " the residual PTR (post tetanic reflex) and helps

> translate the " powerful CNS stimulation " into a motor neural

> sequence of higher intensity. It is imperative however that the

> exercise is not carried to fatigue which would of course " degrade

> the motor response pattern "

Matt Madsen wrote:

Have any pointers to more info on this? Or should I just check out

that " The Ring " site?

Casler of BIO-FORCE writes:

As far as pointers???? Hmmmm you might have to do a search. I might also

mention that even though I am a proponent of the system, many argue that the

" quick lifts " and technique lifts should come first.

I personally find that lighter quick lifts " reduce " my perception of " power "

and do not lead to " explosive " abilities or the transferances to activities. I

think there are two " schools of thought " on this issue. Seems to me Mel used to

preach quick and explosive lifts first. (by the way where is that rascal?)

If you haven't been to the RING be prepared for a very large range of posts

from the silly high school shot putter to " Westside's " Dave Tate and everything

in between. Also many " world class " throwers contribute quite regularly. (Andy

Bloom, Tunks, and others)

Regards,

A. Casler

BIO-FORCE, Inc.

" Sweat Happens "

[Guest guest]

Burkhardt <emburkha@...> wrote:

> Matt, do you really think if you took a group of elite tennis

> players and made them play racquetball for 2 or 3 weeks (no tennis)

> that the results would be " devastating " ? I beg to differ. The

> differences you describe above will certainly disrupt their tennis

> game for a little while, but I bet they'd be right back to their

" A-

> game " after a few practice sessions.

OK, it's only devestating to me. I suck. ;^)

You're right; any elite athlete probably has enough skill " inertia "

to bounce back from cross-training. On the other hand, playing

soccer won't disrupt their game at all.

> And the nice thing about racquet ball is that many of the other

> movements involved are either similar or identical, so there'd be

> minimal loss of tennis specific conditioning. I'm not so sure I'm

> buyin this " devastating neural confusion theory " .

Yes, that is the upside.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Back to the original point, will Olympic Lifting because of its explosive

nature, create a harder punch, more homeruns, or faster serve? If it does,

is it the best choice of training method to accomplish those goals? I

realize that is a simplification, but do you get my point?

Brett Blaney

RE: Power Training - Dynamic Method

> Burkhardt <emburkha@...> wrote:

> > Matt, do you really think if you took a group of elite tennis

> > players and made them play racquetball for 2 or 3 weeks (no tennis)

>

> > that the results would be " devastating " ? I beg to differ. The

> > differences you describe above will certainly disrupt their tennis

> > game for a little while, but I bet they'd be right back to their

> " A-

> > game " after a few practice sessions.

>

> OK, it's only devestating to me. I suck. ;^)

>

> You're right; any elite athlete probably has enough skill " inertia "

> to bounce back from cross-training. On the other hand, playing

> soccer won't disrupt their game at all.

>

> > And the nice thing about racquet ball is that many of the other

> > movements involved are either similar or identical, so there'd be

> > minimal loss of tennis specific conditioning. I'm not so sure I'm

> > buyin this " devastating neural confusion theory " .

>

> Yes, that is the upside.

>

> Matt Madsen

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Someone wrote...

<<In some sports it's important to be able to perform while fatigued,

so it might make sense to wear yourself out and keep going. You need

to be able to perform a double-leg takedown at the end of a wrestling

match too, for instance..>>

One technique that has been used for training WLers is to squat hard first

then snatch, clean and jerk or both afterward. I have done a lot of

training like this and recall that the first week or so was really

difficult - SN and C & J technique really suffered. After adapting I felt it

was an interesting and useful challenge to train " the lifts " in a fatigued

state. I think it is very helpful to do this for certain periods of time

during a WLers training career.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

[Helfst, Bob] ,

<<I have heard of shot putters doing cleans before they throw and seeing

great improvements. (is someone heating up the grill?)>>

Makes sense to me. What better way to " fire up " the nervous system than

with heavy OLs.

[Guest guest]

Burkhardt <emburkha@...> wrote:

> Matt, do you really think if you took a group of elite tennis

> players and made them play racquetball for 2 or 3 weeks (no tennis)

> that the results would be " devastating " ? I beg to differ. The

> differences you describe above will certainly disrupt their tennis

> game for a little while, but I bet they'd be right back to their

" A-

> game " after a few practice sessions.

Matt....

You're right; any elite athlete probably has enough skill " inertia "

to bounce back from cross-training. On the other hand, playing

soccer won't disrupt their game at all.

...

Yes, I agree with your soccer statement above. Some of our coaches -

especially our Men's Tennis coach - are big on " Ultimate Frisbee " for off

season conditioning. I am a big fan of this. Ultimate Frisbee is fun AND

competitive, so the motivation push oneself is " built-in " .

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

If the another kind of activity is applied in the competitive period

(for 2-3 weeks, as someone said), it can really disturb technique

( " devastating theory " ).

Different patterns of movement can be used in the transition period as

an active recovery or in any period of training, also as a recovery method

( " heterocronicity " , is it right in english? heterocronismo in

portuguese...). As an example, I remember that Dr. Yessis wrote about a

soviet volleyball team training soccer in the morning before an evening

game.

-----Mensagem Original-----

De: " Matt Madsen " <mmadsen@...>

Para: <supertrainingegroups>

Enviada em: Quarta-feira, 25 de Outubro de 2000 21:28

Assunto: RE: Power Training - Dynamic Method

> Burkhardt <emburkha@...> wrote:

> > Matt, do you really think if you took a group of elite tennis

> > players and made them play racquetball for 2 or 3 weeks (no tennis)

>

> > that the results would be " devastating " ? I beg to differ. The

> > differences you describe above will certainly disrupt their tennis

> > game for a little while, but I bet they'd be right back to their

> " A-

> > game " after a few practice sessions.

>

> OK, it's only devestating to me. I suck. ;^)

>

> You're right; any elite athlete probably has enough skill " inertia "

> to bounce back from cross-training. On the other hand, playing

> soccer won't disrupt their game at all.

>

> > And the nice thing about racquet ball is that many of the other

> > movements involved are either similar or identical, so there'd be

> > minimal loss of tennis specific conditioning. I'm not so sure I'm

> > buyin this " devastating neural confusion theory " .

>

> Yes, that is the upside.

>

> Matt Madsen

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Brett Blaney writes:

" I have the exact same question surrounding boxing and punching dynamics. I

realize with Olympic Lifts there would a general or overall gain in speed and

power, but if the movement in the lift doesn't specifically mimic the movement

used in the sport, how well does the gains in power translate to the sport. In

this case punching power.

I've had the same question regarding improving hitting power in baseball or

softball. In both cases power is generated from a twisting motion generated in

the hips and continued through the torso. Most lifts do not mimic this motion. "

Specificity should not be confused with simulation. While simulation of a

competition movement or part of it with small added weight may be appropriate

during certain phases of training, simulation of any movement with significant

resistance is not recommended because of the detrimental effect on existing

neuromuscular patterns. Even if resistance is selected carefully there will

usually be changes in the center of gravity, moments of inertia and mechanical

stiffness of the system which alter the neuromuscular skills required for the

sport (Siff and Verkhoshansky, 1993).

[Guest guest]

Joe Alden wrote:

> However, that does not address the issue of possible trunk and

> lower extremity neural complications. Both overhand and underhand

> throwing includes one legged lunging. Would OL's have to be done

> as splits to confuse the neural path? And with less speed? Or is

> their no neural issues at all in speed-strength training diamond

> ball and football throwers with OL lifts and their cousins?

I wouldn't expect a few dozen reps of power cleans to confuse a

thrower even minimally. I've certainly never felt confused in my

punching or kicking groove after lifting. I'm not sure it would even

mess up my throwing groove -- throwing people that is -- even though

they're both strong hip movements.

Matt Madssen

__________________________________________________