Power Training - Dynamic Method or Olympic Lifts

[Guest guest]

In training to develop maximum power and explosiveness which method

of training would be better - conventional lifts, i.e. squat, deadlift,

etc. trained using the dynamic method of multiple sets of low reps

using 60-80% of max or using the Olympic lifts and their variations.

Lance Tamburo

*** Olympic type training also involves multiple sets (4-8) of low reps (1-3

reps), though periodically with a much heavier load, so do you wish to compare

the lifting exercises chosen or the method used with any given exercises? In

addition, your specific goal is essential - are you training for powerlifting,

weightlifting or for another sport?

Generally, if you are training to develop maximum power, one uses a load that is

between 55-70 percent of one's maximum, depending on the exercise. If you are

training for explosiveness, then we have to know if that is simply with bodymass

or under heavy loading. A good deal of several chapters of " Supertraining " (Siff

& Verkhoshansky, 1999) is devoted to this issue.

Dr Mel C Siff

Denver, USA

mcsiff@...

[Guest guest]

Lance Tamburo <lt3976@...> wrote:

> In training to develop maximum power and explosiveness which method

> of training would be better - conventional lifts, i.e. squat,

> deadlift, etc. trained using the dynamic method of multiple sets of

> low reps using 60-80% of max or using the Olympic lifts and their

> variations.

I doubt you'd see much difference. A power clean and an explosive

deadlift are quite similar after all. In fact, you might call an

explosive deadlift a " clean pull " ...

On the Canadian Throw Site, they have some discussion of Louie

' (Westside Barbell) thoughts on this:

http://www.canthrow.com/articles/caster-simmons.shtml

He said that although he feels that there are better exercises than

the power clean for throwers (sorry-kicked another sacred cow there),

this one has worked best for them over the years simply because it is

usually trained quickly, at an optimal percent. That is, lets say a

man can deadlift 750, and he does his power cleans with 500.

Regardless of how many reps he does with the 500, he's moving 67% of

his top D/L, as fast as hell. The result? A super training response

directed at the hams/low back/mid back and glutes, and an undying

belief in the power clean as the be-all and end-all.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> > In training to develop maximum power and explosiveness which

method

> > of training would be better - conventional lifts, i.e. squat,

> > deadlift, etc. trained using the dynamic method of multiple sets

of

>

> > low reps using 60-80% of max or using the Olympic lifts and their

> > variations.

>

> I doubt you'd see much difference. A power clean and an explosive

> deadlift are quite similar after all. In fact, you might call an

> explosive deadlift a " clean pull " ...

>

+++Wait a minute there. An explosive deadlift is not a clean pull.

The dynamics of clean pull dictate moderate effort until the bar

reaches the lower third of the thigh with the knee re-bent, where

maximal effort takes place driving the bar vertically. A

deadlift is performed with maximal effort from the ground, and little

to no rebending of the knee. very different. In fact, the

differences between a 100% and 110% of clean maximum clean pull, are

significant enough to detrimentally modify the rhythm of clean

technique.

> On the Canadian Throw Site, they have some discussion of Louie

> ' (Westside Barbell) thoughts on this:

>

> http://www.canthrow.com/articles/caster-simmons.shtml

>

> He said that although he feels that there are better exercises than

> the power clean for throwers (sorry-kicked another sacred cow

there),

> this one has worked best for them over the years simply because it

is

> usually trained quickly, at an optimal percent. That is, lets say a

> man can deadlift 750, and he does his power cleans with 500.

> Regardless of how many reps he does with the 500, he's moving 67% of

> his top D/L, as fast as hell. The result? A super training response

> directed at the hams/low back/mid back and glutes, and an undying

> belief in the power clean as the be-all and end-all.

>

+++What about the transfer of energy component, and the utilization

of the body from the center progressing into the extremeties? What

about the use of the stretch reflex? What about the greater

amplitude of movement?

-eli

[Guest guest]

>A power clean and an explosive deadlift are quite similar after

all. In fact, you might call an explosive deadlift a " clean pull " ...

With a power clean the barbell dramatically accelerates after the

barbell passes the knees. With a deadlift the barbell tends to stay

at a constant speed or even slows down during the lift. This is why

the Russians have cautioned against performing pulls above 90 percent

of the classical lifts. It is also why pulls are not performed as

frequently by today's eliite lifters (as compared to the elite

lifters of the past.

Kim Goss

[Guest guest]

>From: Matt Madsen <mmadsen@...>

>This was all with respect to non-lifters, specifically throwers, to

>whom neither lift (explosive dealift or power clean) is particularly

>specific. As you've pointed out, a competitive lifter isn't going to

>haphazardly switch out deadlifts, pulls, and cleans for one another.

Which of the explosive lifts would you suggest thrower's (baseball pitchers,

fast pitch softball pitchers and quarterbacks) incorporate in their regimes?

How would you address rotational strength and speed-strength? Would you

include any single leg exercises?

Joe Alden

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[Guest guest]

>From: Hobman <khobman@...>

>.....For baseball I would certainly include the snatch

>as an explosive lift because of its positive effect on the shoulder

> >girdle.

What about catchers, addressing the explosive movements from squat to ball

release when throwing out runners?

>I'm not sure what I'd do for fast-pitch. I suppose any clean type of

>movement that uses hip strength.

I use low and high pulls without catches.

>Baseball especially great care must be taken

>not to throw off the neural paths of someone who has a major league >arm.

Since the throwing motions which generate velocity are mainly accomplished

moving the arm away and forward of the body, none of the OL's would seem to

interfere.

However, that does not address the issue of possible trunk and lower

extremity neural complications. Both overhand and underhand throwing

includes one legged lunging. Would OL's have to be done as splits to

confuse the neural path? And with less speed? Or is their no neural issues

at all in speed-strength training diamond ball and football throwers with OL

lifts and their cousins?

Joe Alden

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[Guest guest]

COACHKIMGOSS@... wrote:

> Matt Madsen <mmadsen@y...> wrote:

> > A power clean and an explosive deadlift are quite similar after

> > all. In fact, you might call an explosive deadlift a " clean

> > pull " ...

>

> With a power clean the barbell dramatically accelerates after the

> barbell passes the knees. With a deadlift the barbell tends to stay

> at a constant speed or even slows down during the lift.

I knew I'd get hammered for not further explaining my position there.

I should know better by now...

An explosive deadlift is not simply a deadlift. We're talking about

accelerating through with a very light deadlift (e.g. 60% 1RM). In

this case, the bar does not stay at a constant speed, and it

definitely does not slow down (well, until the end).

I agree completely that a typical deadlift is not a clean pull.

> This is why the Russians have cautioned against performing pulls

> above 90 percent of the classical lifts. It is also why pulls are

> not performed as frequently by today's eliite lifters (as compared

> to the elite lifters of the past.

This was all with respect to non-lifters, specifically throwers, to

whom neither lift (explosive dealift or power clean) is particularly

specific. As you've pointed out, a competitive lifter isn't going to

haphazardly switch out deadlifts, pulls, and cleans for one another.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Eli Rosenberg <erosenbe0@...> wrote:

> Matt Madsen <mmadsen@y...> wrote:

> > On the Canadian Throw Site, they have some discussion of Louie

> > ' (Westside Barbell) thoughts on this:

> >

> > http://www.canthrow.com/articles/caster-simmons.shtml

> >

> > He said that although he feels that there are better exercises

> > than the power clean for throwers ...

I thought I should clarify that the text after the URL is a snippet

from that site, not a personal diatribe on explosive deads versus

power cleans for throwers.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Joe wrote,

>

>Which of the explosive lifts would you suggest thrower's (baseball pitchers,

>fast pitch softball pitchers and quarterbacks) incorporate in their regimes?

> How would you address rotational strength and speed-strength? Would you

>include any single leg exercises?

Joe, that particular article was meant for shot-putters, hammer throwers

and javelin throwers - throwers in the track and field sense - who have a

specific need to throw far.

For the sports throwers you listed above I personally (I know the question

was directed at Matt) wouldn't give them one single program since their

needs are so different. For baseball I would certainly include the snatch

as an explosive lift because of its positive effect on the shoulder girdle.

I'm not sure what I'd do for fast-pitch. I suppose any clean type of

movement that uses hip strength. Football I would give a lot more general

work in addition to explosive moves so the athlete could take the contact

(ie. provide padding!).

In all cases I suspect it would be a different program than that required

for a track and field thrower. Baseball especially great care must be taken

not to throw off the neural paths of someone who has a major league arm.

[Guest guest]

> An explosive deadlift is not simply a deadlift. We're talking about

> accelerating through with a very light deadlift (e.g. 60% 1RM). In

> this case, the bar does not stay at a constant speed, and it

> definitely does not slow down (well, until the end).

It will be moving fast for a very small range of motion unless you

want to follow through with the shoulders and allow the heels to come

off the floor. This is one of the disadvantages of conventional

squats and deadlifts as you have to spend so much of the lift slowing

down the bar.

> This was all with respect to non-lifters, specifically throwers, to

> whom neither lift (explosive dealift or power clean) is particularly

> specific. As you've pointed out, a competitive lifter isn't going

to haphazardly switch out deadlifts, pulls, and cleans for one

another.

I use to train at the Iron Works in San and the San YMCA.

Training at these gyms were Mac Wilkins (308 power snatch), Al

Feurbach (341 snatch), Ron Semkew (341 power snatch), etc., etc.

These were among the best throwers in the world, and they swore by

the Olympic lifts. Are you saying these guys didn't know what they

were doing?

Kim Goss

[Guest guest]

Goss wrote...

<<Training at these gyms were Mac Wilkins (308 power snatch), Al

Feurbach (341 snatch), Ron Semkew (341 power snatch)>>

I heard Semkew was a hell of a lifter.

[Guest guest]

> > I heard Semkew was a hell of a lifter.

I believe he did 341 (which was a power snatch), 413 clean and jerk

and hit a junior world record of about 69 feet in the shot when he

was 19.

[Guest guest]

These are all good questions Joe and I don't have the answers myself. Personally

I think in some ways strength conditioning for sports like these is more of an

art than a science. Each person is different.

I like doing jerks as well for the split and overall body power out of it. Could

work well for sports.

One thing - there is no lunge forward by baseball pitchers. If you put a force

plate on the mound for a baseball pitcher there is no push-off on the mound.

INstead the pitcher steps forward from the balance position and then initiates

the pitch with a powerful hip movement, like throwing punch. Gluck of the San

Diego Padres, etc. proved this by using force plates on a number of pitchers.

Joe Alden wrote:

> >From: Hobman <khobman@...>

> >.....For baseball I would certainly include the snatch

> >as an explosive lift because of its positive effect on the shoulder

> > >girdle.

>

> What about catchers, addressing the explosive movements from squat to ball

> release when throwing out runners?

>

> >I'm not sure what I'd do for fast-pitch. I suppose any clean type of

> >movement that uses hip strength.

>

> I use low and high pulls without catches.

>

> >Baseball especially great care must be taken

> >not to throw off the neural paths of someone who has a major league >arm.

>

> Since the throwing motions which generate velocity are mainly accomplished

> moving the arm away and forward of the body, none of the OL's would seem to

> interfere.

>

> However, that does not address the issue of possible trunk and lower

> extremity neural complications. Both overhand and underhand throwing

> includes one legged lunging. Would OL's have to be done as splits to

> confuse the neural path? And with less speed? Or is their no neural issues

> at all in speed-strength training diamond ball and football throwers with OL

> lifts and their cousins?

>

> Joe Alden

>

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>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>From: Hobman <khobman@...>

>One thing - there is no lunge forward by baseball pitchers. If you put a

>force

>plate on the mound for a baseball pitcher there is no push-off on the

>mound.

>INstead the pitcher steps forward from the balance position and then

>initiates

>the pitch with a powerful hip movement, like throwing punch. Gluck of the

>San

>Diego Padres, etc. proved this by using force plates on a number of

> >pitchers.

There are two schools of instruction for pitchers regarding the trailing leg

action that is, to push or not to push. It has been common to teach the

" fall down the incline " method but the biomechanics of adding force to the

kinetic chain by creating a more rapid hip rotation and front foot landing

may translate to added velocity at release. Some pithchers demonstrate an

inability to get the trailing hip/leg through and the push off the mound is

indicated. I have seen 90 mph throwers who utilize both methods.

The Padres have been of the no-push methodology in their minor league system

and it doesn't surprise me to see Gluck's data. Gluck needs to put his

force plates on the *landing* foot and see if there is a difference, matched

against throwing velocities.

A punch is different in another way. Hip rotation is finished before the

landing foot hits the ground when pitching.

Joe Alden

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[Guest guest]

>From: " Brett Blaney " <mpakt@...>

>You are right about the two schools of thought surrounding a

>pitchers pushoff. Tom Seaver used to bend or collapse the rear (pushoff)

>leg

>and then drive forcefully from the rubber. The idea was to increase the hip

>rotation and thus arm speed. I know that was a popular method that was

>taught in the late '70's and early '80's. Maybe it has fallen from favor

>since then.

Fallen from favor mostly because pitching instructors found a longer

learning curve. I takes greater motor skills to handle the increased

hip/landing forces and keep positioning the arm in the same release slot

time after time. And pitchers can be notoriously bad athletes.

Joe Alden

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[Guest guest]

Joe Alden wrote:

>

> A punch is different in another way. Hip rotation is finished before the

> landing foot hits the ground when pitching.

For my money a punch more closely resembles a baseball swing than a pitching

motion. You are right about the two schools of thought surrounding a

pitchers pushoff. Tom Seaver used to bend or collapse the rear (pushoff) leg

and then drive forcefully from the rubber. The idea was to increase the hip

rotation and thus arm speed. I know that was a popular method that was

taught in the late '70's and early '80's. Maybe it has fallen from favor

since then.

Brett Blaney

Re: Re: Power Training - Dynamic Method or Olympic

Lifts

> >From: Hobman <khobman@...>

>

> >One thing - there is no lunge forward by baseball pitchers. If you put a

> >force

> >plate on the mound for a baseball pitcher there is no push-off on the

> >mound.

> >INstead the pitcher steps forward from the balance position and then

> >initiates

> >the pitch with a powerful hip movement, like throwing punch. Gluck of the

> >San

> >Diego Padres, etc. proved this by using force plates on a number of

> > >pitchers.

>

> There are two schools of instruction for pitchers regarding the trailing

leg

> action that is, to push or not to push. It has been common to teach the

> " fall down the incline " method but the biomechanics of adding force to the

> kinetic chain by creating a more rapid hip rotation and front foot landing

> may translate to added velocity at release. Some pithchers demonstrate an

> inability to get the trailing hip/leg through and the push off the mound

is

> indicated. I have seen 90 mph throwers who utilize both methods.

>

> The Padres have been of the no-push methodology in their minor league

system

> and it doesn't surprise me to see Gluck's data. Gluck needs to put his

> force plates on the *landing* foot and see if there is a difference,

matched

> against throwing velocities.

>

> A punch is different in another way. Hip rotation is finished before the

> landing foot hits the ground when pitching.

>

> Joe Alden

>

> _________________________________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

>

> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at

> http://profiles.msn.com.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

COACHKIMGOSS@... wrote:

> In supertrainingegroups, Matt Madsen <mmadsen@y...> wrote:

> > An explosive deadlift is not simply a deadlift. We're talking

> > about accelerating through with a very light deadlift (e.g. 60%

> > 1RM). In this case, the bar does not stay at a constant speed,

> > and it definitely does not slow down (well, until the end).

>

> It will be moving fast for a very small range of motion unless you

> want to follow through with the shoulders and allow the heels to

> come off the floor. This is one of the disadvantages of

> conventional squats and deadlifts as you have to spend so much of

> the lift slowing down the bar.

I agree.

That said, has a point. Although a max deadlift (or squat,

or bench) is a slow lift and a max power clean isn't, that doesn't

mean you can't perform a fast deadlift. If you perform a deadlift

with your power-clean weight (or even a bit more), it can be done

quickly with high power output. Fred " Dr. Squat " Hatfield recommends

training this way, moving a lighter weight with more acceleration,

calling it " compensatory acceleration " .

One downside, of course, is that you know if you're moving a power

clean fast enough -- you rack the weight -- but you don't have such

clear-cut feedback on a " speed " deadlift.

> > This was all with respect to non-lifters, specifically throwers,

> > to whom neither lift (explosive dealift or power clean) is

> > particularly specific. As you've pointed out, a competitive

> > lifter isn't going to haphazardly switch out deadlifts, pulls,

> > and cleans for one another.

>

> I use to train at the Iron Works in San and the San YMCA.

>

> Training at these gyms were Mac Wilkins (308 power snatch), Al

> Feurbach (341 snatch), Ron Semkew (341 power snatch), etc., etc.

> These were among the best throwers in the world, and they swore by

> the Olympic lifts. Are you saying these guys didn't know what they

> were doing?

Perhaps you're confusing my quotes of the Canadian Throw guy

summarizing as my own thoughts.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Joe Alden <joealden@...> wrote:

> Which of the explosive lifts would you suggest thrower's (baseball

> pitchers, fast pitch softball pitchers and quarterbacks)

> incorporate in their regimes?

None of the standard lifts are particularly specific to throwing a

ball at high velocity, but any of the Olympic lift variations should

be decent for building lower-body strength.

An underhand hang clean ( " power curl " or " cheat curl " ) might be

decently specific to fast-pitch softball, as might various old-school

swings ( " cheat front raises " ).

> How would you address rotational strength and speed-strength?

With something other than the Olympic lifts. Ideally you'd be able

to perform similar explosive movements horizontally, but gravity

won't cooperate. You don't just need speed-strength in your legs and

hips.

Realistically, I think you have to rely on fairly slow lifts

(pull-overs, pull-downs, bench press, wrist curls, external rotation)

to build upper-body strength and mass, with some higher-power

movements (medicine ball) thrown in (pun intended) as well. I might

suggest ballistic one-arm movements just because they tend to involve

more torso torquing than symmetrical two-arm movements.

And, of course, just throwing the ball has to be the bulk of

training.

> Would you include any single leg exercises?

Sure. And one-arm exercises too.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Joe Alden <joealden@...> wrote:

> Which of the explosive lifts would you suggest thrower's (baseball

> pitchers, fast pitch softball pitchers and quarterbacks)

> incorporate in their regimes?

None of the standard lifts are particularly specific to throwing a

ball at high velocity, but any of the Olympic lift variations should

be decent for building lower-body strength.

An underhand hang clean ( " power curl " or " cheat curl " ) might be

decently specific to fast-pitch softball, as might various old-school

swings ( " cheat front raises " ).

> How would you address rotational strength and speed-strength?

With something other than the Olympic lifts. Ideally you'd be able

to perform similar explosive movements horizontally, but gravity

won't cooperate. You don't just need speed-strength in your legs and

hips.

Realistically, I think you have to rely on fairly slow lifts

(pull-overs, pull-downs, bench press, wrist curls, external rotation)

to build upper-body strength and mass, with some higher-power

movements (medicine ball) thrown in (pun intended) as well. I might

suggest ballistic one-arm movements just because they tend to involve

more torso torquing than symmetrical two-arm movements.

And, of course, just throwing the ball has to be the bulk of

training.

> Would you include any single leg exercises?

Sure. And one-arm exercises too.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Joe Alden <joealden@...> wrote:

> What about catchers, addressing the explosive movements from squat

> to ball release when throwing out runners?

I'd think squats or front squats would carry over just fine.

> Since the throwing motions which generate velocity are mainly

> accomplished moving the arm away and forward of the body, none of

> the OL's would seem to interfere.

Or help. At least with the arm-specific part. They'd obviously

build useful lower-body strength.

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

Joe Alden <joealden@...> wrote:

> What about catchers, addressing the explosive movements from squat

> to ball release when throwing out runners?

I'd think squats or front squats would carry over just fine.

> Since the throwing motions which generate velocity are mainly

> accomplished moving the arm away and forward of the body, none of

> the OL's would seem to interfere.

Or help. At least with the arm-specific part. They'd obviously

build useful lower-body strength.

Matt Madsen