RE: Training Session Length

[Guest guest]

>I have heard of a study quoted where researchers measured the Testosterone

>/ Cortisol ratio (T/C) throughout the training session. As I understand it

>the T/C increased for the first 20 minutes of weight training. Then it

>leveled off until about 45 minutes where it began to decline. At about the

>hour mark it was indicated that the T/C was at a level where more muscle

>breakdown would happen compared with the positive effects. I believe this

>was a study from an Eastern bloc country.

>

>I've heard many famous strength coaches quote this. Also, I think Dave Tate

>mentioned that they do their sled work first (about 20 minutes worth) and

>then they do either their max effort or max speed exercise to take

>advantage of this high point in the T/C.

>

>Is anyone aware of a study like this? I'm interested in what people think

>of this theory. Does it make much of a difference?

>

Hi Doug,

I've heard the same things, however, I've never come across this (or

similar) study. And even if it exists, there are a number of issues to deal

with.

First, testosterone, cortisol, T:C changes during training do not mean very

much. Although it is logical to assume that increased T and decreased C is

good, and decreased T and increased C is bad, the actual magnitude of the

effects has not been studied enough, but at this time, it suggests that

these transient changes have little value.

Second, assuming this study exists, how can we extrapolate it to all types

of strength training. What I mean is how do changes in loading parameter

(load, sets, reps, density, velocity, etc.) affect this? Also, how does

training status affect the changes?

There are simply too many questions to be asked for this one study (assuming

it exists) too answer.

So again I ask, where is the evidence that shows 1 hour is optimal?

Loren Chiu

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[Guest guest]

Hello

From: " Loren Chiu " <Loren_Chiu@...>

> So again I ask, where is the evidence that shows 1 hour is optimal?

To expand on this question: what is an hour of training? When doing 10 sets

of 1-3 powercleans with five minutes between sets plus warm up sets and

stretch at the end as opposed to several exercises with three sets of ten.

Did this 60 min rule evolve for as simple reason as Burkhardt suggested

that people just can't push themselves hard enough for longer?

Cheers

Hamish

[Guest guest]

Don't we periodize overall duration just like intensity and volume??

Josh Katz

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Re: Training Session Length

Hello

From: " Loren Chiu " <Loren_Chiu@...>

> So again I ask, where is the evidence that shows 1 hour is optimal?

To expand on this question: what is an hour of training? When doing 10 sets

of 1-3 powercleans with five minutes between sets plus warm up sets and

stretch at the end as opposed to several exercises with three sets of ten.

Did this 60 min rule evolve for as simple reason as Burkhardt suggested

that people just can't push themselves hard enough for longer?

Cheers

Hamish

[Guest guest]

A great deal of research has been conducte on endocrine responses to various

forms of training, e.g., aerobic/anaerobic training at varying levels of

intensity and volume. Also, diurnal cycles, alone and in response to

training, have been investigated. What scientists have learned is that the

duration, intensity, volume, time of day, rest periods, and related training

variables all have an effect on various hormones. Further, growth promoting

hormones such as GH and T seem to be affected in opposing manners.

This is all very complex, and in all honesty, difficult to make sense of.

However, as pragmatic as I tend to be, I want to know one thing: how does

this affect the gains from training? This has not been answered by any

research to date, and any assumptions on training outcome based on hormonal

changes due to training is premature and close to the realm of conjecture.

My take on the issue, for what it's worth, is to train when you're motivated

to do so and when your schedule allows for it; use a sensible, periodized

approach; don't worry about the infinite complexity of endocrinology; and

watch the gains come.

Dan Wagman, Ph.D., C.S.C.S.

[Guest guest]

From: " jkatz1 " <jkatz1@...>

> Don't we periodize overall duration just like intensity and volume??

How do you suggest that one periodise the duration of a weights workout if

one was already periodising either one or all of the intensity, volume or

type of exercise.

Another question of mine is how one expects to fit in all this supplemental

training when many athletes I see seem to be lacking in the skill

department?

> So again I ask, where is the evidence that shows 1 hour is optimal?

> To expand on this question: what is an hour of training? When doing 10

> sets of 1-3 power cleans with five minutes between sets plus warm up sets and

> stretch at the end as opposed to several exercises with three sets of ten.

Hamish

[Guest guest]

Dan:

What's going on?

I would add some simple points about endocrine responses that I noted during my work in Bill Kraemer's lab at Penn State. The biggest guys in our lab, did not always have the highest T or GH levels. As a matter of fact, the stronger guys would sometimes have higher cortisol levels. Based upon the data we gathered at PSU, I thought endocrine responses were getting way too much credit for many of the effects of resistance training. I think it was Lemon's group that presented an abstract at ACSM 2 years ago which showed no correlations in the time course of skeletal muscle protein synthesis and hormonal responses to resistance exercise.

As they said in Kokomo, IN:

Lift heavy or go home!

later,

Tom

Incledon, MS, RD, LD, LN, CSCS, NSCA-CPTAdjunct Professor of Kinesiology and NutritionMath, Science, and TechnologyNova Southeastern UniversityandResearch ScientistDepartment of Physiology and BiophysicsDepartment of Exercise and Sport ScienceUniversity of Miami

Mailing address:619 NW 90th TerracePlantation, FL 33324954-577-0689hpsinc@...Journal of Performance Enhancementhttp://members.tripod.com/JPE_Sportscience/Coming soon: Performance Nutrition Newsletter!

[Guest guest]

If you know # of sets, reps, rep speed, # of exercises, and rest period

duration you can work out duration...and periodize it. As far as fitting

this into " supplemental training " vs. skill training...which skills are you

refering to?

Josh Katz

jkatz1@...

PREP Performance

info@...

http://www.prepperformance.com

-----Original Message-----

From: Hamish Ferguson [mailto:bikecoach@...]

From: " jkatz1 " <jkatz1@...>

> Don't we periodize overall duration just like intensity and volume??

How do you suggest that one periodise the duration of a weights workout if

one was already periodising either one or all of the intensity, volume or

type of exercise.

Another question of mine is how one expects to fit in all this supplemental

training when many athletes I see seem to be lacking in the skill

department?

> So again I ask, where is the evidence that shows 1 hour is optimal?

> To expand on this question: what is an hour of training? When doing 10

> sets of 1-3 power cleans with five minutes between sets plus warm up sets

> and stretch at the end as opposed to several exercises with three sets of ten.

Hamish

[Guest guest]

TOM! How the heck are you? You frequent way too many of these groups. YOU are

the one that needs go home and lift HEAVY. By now I'm surprised that you even

have the strength remaining to use a keybord.

Yeah, from the available research I agree that endocrine responses are way

too complex, unpredictable, and ever changing to draw conclusions such as

training in the morning is best. And you hit on another extremely important

point: strength isn't solely the result of endocrinology.

Dan Wagman, Ph.D., C.S.C.S.