Steroid Induced Psychiatric Problems

[Guest guest]

Schaefer (a.k.a. The Phantom) wrote :

" Very interesting. Let me add an anecdote of my own here. I have been

alternately " wooed " and then had my life threatened from afar by a bb who

admits extremely heavy steroid usage - enough steroid usage to create a

freaky build of 5'9 " 220 lbs, 26 " waist, 20 " biceps, and 30 " legs.....and

yes, he is clinically bipolar. But his dilemna (to HIM anyway) is whether

to give up his BB identity - or to take the medicine that makes dealing with

the rest of humanity bearable - apparently he cannot take both. "

*** A 26 " waist at 5'9 " 220lb! Was he a human being or a mutant wasp?! (Are

you sure it wasn't 36 " ?). Drugs or otherwise, this guy sounds like a genuine

genetic freak.

Cheers,

_______________________

Mavromatis

Department of Economics

Monash University

AUSTRALIA

_______________________

" The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the

inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. "

Winston Churchill.

[Guest guest]

Very interesting. Let me add an anecdote of my own here. I have been

alternately " wooed " and then had my life threatened from afar by a bb who

admits extremely heavy steroid usage - enough steroid usage to create a

freaky build of 5'9 " 220 lbs, 26 " waist, 20 " biceps, and 30 " legs.....and

yes, he is clinically bipolar. But his dilemna (to HIM anyway) is whether

to give up his BB identity - or to take the medicine that makes dealing with

the rest of humanity bearable - apparently he cannot take both.

He has normal spurts, then extreme periods on one direction or the other -

and I am thankful he's across the atlantic!

I believe more investigation of this aspect of steroid usage should occur -

and the silence on this subject is dangerous. But then, I still have people

telling me " no one ever died from steroid use " .

I believe the silence helps encourage people to take this risky and

generally unnecessary step - for most on steroids, they do not use to

compete or to earn a living - they use it for a transient period to feel

better about themselves.....or to reach for an unrealistic goal, encouraged

by the outlandish results of those with good genetics coupled with hard work

and heavy steroid usage.

the Phantom

Steroid induced psychiatric problems

>

>I believe an under talked about aspect of steroid usage is the

>inducement of severe psychiatric illnesses which did not exist prior

>to steroid usage. It is well known in the medical community that all

>types of steroids have the potential to cause very severe changes in

>mood and even perception. There have even been cases of steroid

>induced mania and even clinical depression from using steroids. In

>fact, there have been cases where episodes of full blown psychosis

>have occured as a direct result of using steroids.

>

>The stereotypical " roid rage " we have all heard about that some

>bodybuilders develop after using anabolics, is arguably nothing but a

>type of mania. For those that do not know, mania is part of bipolar

>manic depression, a very serious psychiatric illness. Sometimes,

>after the athletes tapers off the steroid the mania goes away and the

>athlete " crashes " into a deep clinical depression.

>

>Some cases of steroid induced depression are especially severe and

>hard to treat, oftentimes being especially nasty, agitated clinical

>depressions. Steroid induced depressions can sometimes include

>extreme irritability and even violent thoughts in addition to

>suicidal thoughts. It is said that steroids can cause the body to

>secrete too much cortisol and this excess of cortisol is responsible

>for the inducement of depression. In fact, in neuropsychiatry

>research circles, one of the main proposed theories of

>the " neurobiology of depression " revolves around the naturally

>produced steroid cortisol.

>

>This is one of the theories proposed by

>renowned research psychiatrist Dr. Nemeroff MD of Emory

>University. When anabolics or corticosteroids are ingested, too much

>cortisol is oftentimes produced. Too much cortisol is just not good

>for mental health, Dr. Nemeroff proposes that excess cortisol causes

>a key area of the brain to shrink and literally change in size. This

>area of the brain is called the hippocampus: cortisol in excess does

>a nasty, nasty up job on the hippocampus and this can induce severe

>clinical depression, cause cognitive changes, literally changing

>brain chemistry in fundamental ways.

>

>I wonder how many athletes have developed severe clinical depression

>or even activated bipolar manic depression directly as a result of

>using steroids? And then been forced to have been put on

>antidepressant medications or mood stabilizers such as lithium, SSRI

>type meds like Prozac, anti-psychotic medications, etc. My guess

>would be probably quite a few. Obviously this would be a hush hush

>subject area for many athletes.

>

>I just feel that this is an often under-discussed aspect of steroid

>use and abuse. Usually the focus of steroid discussion is about how

>these drugs will cause problems to the various organs of the body

>such as the liver, heart, kidneys, etc. But it is my personal opinion

>that one of the most dangerous aspects of steroid use is the

>potential psychiatric changes they can cause.

>

>I wonder how many cases we hear about when athletes carry out acts of

>violence or eccentric behavior covered in the media are related to

>their usage of steroids? But not openly admitted or discussed?

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Steroid induced psychiatric problems

I believe an under talked about aspect of steroid usage is the

inducement of severe psychiatric illnesses which did not exist prior

to steroid usage. It is well known in the medical community that all

types of steroids have the potential to cause very severe changes in

mood and even perception. There have even been cases of steroid

induced mania and even clinical depression from using steroids. In

fact, there have been cases where episodes of full blown psychosis

have occured as a direct result of using steroids..

The stereotypical " roid rage " we have all heard about that some

bodybuilders develop after using anabolics, is arguably nothing but a

type of mania. For those that do not know, mania is part of bipolar

manic depression, a very serious psychiatric illness. Sometimes,

after the athletes tapers off the steroid the mania goes away and the

athlete " crashes " into a deep clinical depression.

Some cases of steroid induced depression are especially severe and

hard to treat, oftentimes being especially nasty, agitated clinical

depressions. Steroid induced depressions can sometimes include

extreme irritability and even violent thoughts in addition to

suicidal thoughts. It is said that steroids can cause the body to

secrete too much cortisol and this excess of cortisol is responsible

for the inducement of depression. In fact, in neuropsychiatry

research circles, one of the main proposed theories of

the " neurobiology of depression " revolves around the naturally

produced steroid cortisol.

This is one of the theories proposed by

renowned research psychiatrist Dr. Nemeroff MD of Emory

University. When anabolics or corticosteroids are ingested, too much

cortisol is oftentimes produced. Too much cortisol is just not good

for mental health, Dr. Nemeroff proposes that excess cortisol causes

a key area of the brain to shrink and literally change in size. This

area of the brain is called the hippocampus: cortisol in excess does

a nasty, nasty up job on the hippocampus and this can induce severe

clinical depression, cause cognitive changes, literally changing

brain chemistry in fundamental ways..

I wonder how many athletes have developed severe clinical depression

or even activated bipolar manic depression directly as a result of

using steroids? And then been forced to have been put on

antidepressant medications or mood stabilizers such as lithium, SSRI

type meds like Prozac, anti-psychotic medications, etc. My guess

would be probably quite a few. Obviously this would be a hush hush

subject area for many athletes..

I just feel that this is an often under-discussed aspect of steroid

use and abuse. Usually the focus of steroid discussion is about how

these drugs will cause problems to the various organs of the body

such as the liver, heart, kidneys, etc. But it is my personal opinion

that one of the most dangerous aspects of steroid use is the

potential psychiatric changes they can cause..

I wonder how many cases we hear about when athletes carry out acts of

violence or eccentric behavior covered in the media are related to

their usage of steroids? But not openly admitted or discussed?

[Helfst, Bob] ,

Great point and an interesting topic.

Since there is a potential neurobiological component to these acts of aggression

or eccentricity, are they defensible in court? I think that some members of the

list are attorneys and I would be interested in how that situation is viewed in

the legal realm.

Bob Helfst

Muncie, IN

[Guest guest]

Riddick <SpeedStrength@...> wrote:

> I believe an under talked about aspect of steroid usage is the

> inducement of severe psychiatric illnesses which did not exist

> prior to steroid usage.

Under talked about? If anything, the " roid rage " myth seems

overhyped. I won't say that androgens have no psychological effects,

but the famous NEJM study used 600 mg of test per week and revealed

no symptoms of such " roid rage " in normal male subjects.

(Unfortunately, the on-line abstract doesn't go into that aspect of

the study: N Engl J Med 1996 Jul 4;335(1):1-7)

Other studies seem a bit more mixed, granted, but I'd definitely say

the media portrayal of steroids is that they cause massive

psychological effects.

> It is well known in the medical community that all types of

> steroids have the potential to cause very severe changes in

> mood and even perception.

That seems a bit strong. A typical study (Arch Gen Psychiatry 2000

Feb;57(2):133-40; discussion 155-6) concluded:

Testosterone administration, 600 mg/wk increased ratings of manic

symptoms in normal men. This effect, however, was not uniform across

individuals; most showed little psychological change, whereas a few

developed prominent effects. The mechanism of these variable

reactions remains unclear.

> There have even been cases of steroid induced mania and even

> clinical depression from using steroids. In fact, there have been

> cases where episodes of full blown psychosis have occured as a

> direct result of using steroids.

I don't think the cause-and-effect relationship is nearly so clear.

Using massive amounts of androgens to modify your appearance might

very well be a result of mental illness, not a cause. Obviously the

hardcore bodybuilding population has more than its fair share of

obsessive-compulsives.

Interestingly, the acne drug Accutane seems to cause depression, and

doctors were worried about the suicide rate of teens using it.

Bodybuilders often rely on Accutane to counter androgen-induced acne.

Something to think about...

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

As far as this topic goes, I think that we all need to address the problems

associated with coming off the drugs and the following psychological dependence

on the drugs, rather than the " roid rage " , which I believe to be a myth, as

well.

Dassie, MS, CSCS

Director of Physical Enhancement

Siouxland Acceleration & Fitness

>>> Matt Madsen <mmadsen@...> 09/19 2:19 PM >>>

Riddick <SpeedStrength@...> wrote:

> I believe an under talked about aspect of steroid usage is the

> inducement of severe psychiatric illnesses which did not exist

> prior to steroid usage.

Under talked about? If anything, the " roid rage " myth seems

overhyped. I won't say that androgens have no psychological effects,

but the famous NEJM study used 600 mg of test per week and revealed

no symptoms of such " roid rage " in normal male subjects.

(Unfortunately, the on-line abstract doesn't go into that aspect of

the study: N Engl J Med 1996 Jul 4;335(1):1-7)

Other studies seem a bit more mixed, granted, but I'd definitely say

the media portrayal of steroids is that they cause massive

psychological effects.

> It is well known in the medical community that all types of

> steroids have the potential to cause very severe changes in

> mood and even perception.

That seems a bit strong. A typical study (Arch Gen Psychiatry 2000

Feb;57(2):133-40; discussion 155-6) concluded:

Testosterone administration, 600 mg/wk increased ratings of manic

symptoms in normal men. This effect, however, was not uniform across

individuals; most showed little psychological change, whereas a few

developed prominent effects. The mechanism of these variable

reactions remains unclear.

> There have even been cases of steroid induced mania and even

> clinical depression from using steroids. In fact, there have been

> cases where episodes of full blown psychosis have occured as a

> direct result of using steroids.

I don't think the cause-and-effect relationship is nearly so clear.

Using massive amounts of androgens to modify your appearance might

very well be a result of mental illness, not a cause. Obviously the

hardcore bodybuilding population has more than its fair share of

obsessive-compulsives.

Interestingly, the acne drug Accutane seems to cause depression, and

doctors were worried about the suicide rate of teens using it.

Bodybuilders often rely on Accutane to counter androgen-induced acne.

Something to think about...

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

Schaefer <thephantom198@...> wrote:

> ...enough steroid usage to create a freaky build of 5'9 " 220 lbs,

> 26 " waist, 20 " biceps, and 30 " legs...

That's a freaky build to say the least!

> ...and yes, he is clinically bipolar. But his dilemna (to HIM

> anyway) is whether to give up his BB identity - or to take the

> medicine that makes dealing with the rest of humanity bearable -

> apparently he cannot take both.

Again, hardcore bodybuilding does attract more than its fair share of

obsessive-compulsives.

> But then, I still have people telling me " no one ever died from

> steroid use " .

This fellows problem isn't from steroid use. If anything, it sounds

like a perfect example of his steroid use being a symptom of far

worse problems.

> I believe the silence helps encourage people to take this risky and

> generally unnecessary step - for most on steroids, they do not use

> to compete or to earn a living - they use it for a transient period

> to feel better about themselves...or to reach for an unrealistic

> goal, encouraged by the outlandish results of those with good

> genetics coupled with hard work and heavy steroid usage.

If anything, I think most people hear neverending anti-drug messages

from every direction.

Anyway, plenty of young guys in the bar/club crowd just do a cycle or

two, roid up to a muscular size that's not " too big " for their

intended audience, and away they go.

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

From: " Riddick " <SpeedStrength@...>

> I believe an under talked about aspect of steroid usage is the

> inducement of severe psychiatric illnesses which did not exist prior

> to steroid usage. <snip>

Jack Darkes had a series of interesting articles at Meso on the evidence for

behavioural changes triggered by AAS.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/exclusive/darkes/index.htm

Krista

-------------------------

http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html

mistresskrista@...

[Guest guest]

From: " Riddick " <SpeedStrength@a...>

<I believe an under talked about aspect of steroid usage is the inducement of

severe psychiatric illnesses which did not exist prior to steroid usage.....>

" Krista--Dixon " <kristasd@h...> wrote:

<Jack Darkes had a series of interesting articles at Meso on the

evidence for behavioural changes triggered by AAS.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/exclusive/darkes/index.htm

Darkes concluded that:

Findings regarding the AAS use and aggression relationship are inconsistent and

vary with the nature of the study and design. Although widely accepted as fact,

a review finds little, if any, strong evidence for a direct causal relationship.

This may, in part, stem from confusion regarding the specific questions that are

answerable by various research designs. For instance, empirical studies

generally report a strong association between AAS use and aggression, suggesting

that AAS users are more likely than non-users to report high levels of

aggression. Such reports suffer potential problems, such as memory biases that

might distort reports of motivations and past behavior (e.g., Nisbett & ,

1977), self-selection biases in AAS use, and no control for pre-existing

biological and psychological factors.....>

Krista, it is well known steroids can cause or worsen aggression in

people. However, I wanted to point out that steroids can also cause

full blown psychiatric disorders such as clinical depression and

bipolar manic depression. Very common actually. Oftentimes these

steroid induced psychiatric diseases are extremely difficult to

treat, harder to treat than depressions that occur from more widely

accepted causes such as emotional stress, loneliness, etc.

It seems steroids can just totally wreck the brain chemistry of some

individuals.

Aggression by itself in my opinion is not really a true psychiatric

illness. It can be part of a psychiatric disorder, but not

necessarily.

[Guest guest]

Positive on the states, Mav. Also sadly on the lunacy of the individual.

And I will add here I have a photo of the same guy, pre mutation. one year

of heavy roids took him to 4% bf, and a barbecue grill ab set - you can see

intercostals on this guy, and the photo of the freak is a competition

photo - and believe me, this is the same guy, along with his own commentary

as to the timing and the championship - his name will not be revealed sorry.

Yes, 26 " waist. A real freak, but was no where near this build 1 year

before, he was lean, sure, but not freaky. and his waist might have been

about 30 " before roids. I was surprised and believe me, freaked at these

measurements - my legs at the time were 26 " and my waist 32.5 " here, this

guy was nearly the exact reverse of mine!

sigh. He also might have been a decent guy before he got so into the

steroids too. But he's in love with that freaky build now, and will not

give up his roids to become sane again. he's downright dangerous. I'm

hoping he will forget I exist some day soon. I don't plan to be in Denver

when he visits!

The Phantom

-----Original Message-----

From: Mavromatis <.Mavromatis@...>

supertrainingegroups <supertrainingegroups>

Schaefer (a.k.a. The Phantom) wrote :

> " Very interesting. Let me add an anecdote of my own here. I have been

>alternately " wooed " and then had my life threatened from afar by a bb who

>admits extremely heavy steroid usage - enough steroid usage to create a

>freaky build of 5'9 " 220 lbs, 26 " waist, 20 " biceps, and 30 " legs.....and

>yes, he is clinically bipolar. But his dilemna (to HIM anyway) is whether

>to give up his BB identity - or to take the medicine that makes dealing

>withthe rest of humanity bearable - apparently he cannot take both. "

>*** A 26 " waist at 5'9 " 220lb! Was he a human being or a mutant wasp?! (Are

>you sure it wasn't 36 " ?). Drugs or otherwise, this guy sounds like a

>genuine genetic freak.

>

>Cheers,

> Mavromatis

>Department of Economics

>Monash University

>AUSTRALIA

[Guest guest]

Re the legal issue of criminal liability, some states

provide a defense for voluntary intoxication which would

apply to " specific intent " crimes such as assault and

first degree murder (intent to cause fear or

apprehension of imminent bodily harm) but not to general

intent crimes such as battery (an unconsented to or

offensive touching; no intent requirement here), which

may be accomplished through mere negligence. However, I

don't know how voluntary intoxication with an ILLEGAL

substance would fit into this scheme.

Marco Pignone;

Recently admitted to the FL bar and searching for a job

in NY

[Guest guest]

Bob Helfst wrote:

< , Great point and an interesting topic.

Since there is a potential neurobiological component to these acts

of aggression or eccentricity, are they defensible in court? I think

that some members of the list are attorneys and I would be interested

in how that situation is viewed in the legal realm. >

Bob, I really dont know the answer to your question. I would think as

time goes by and we find more out about the neurobiology of

depression and other severe mental illnesses these questions you ask

would be able to be answered better.

One thing is for sure is that steroids do increase testosterone and

also they increase that nasty, naturally produced steroid cortisol.

When testosterone levels are already " normal " as they are in most

athletes who begin using steroids, more testosterone via steroids can

cause depression. In fact, depression is listed as one of the

possible side effects of steroid use.

Also, increased levels of cortisol does nobody any good and only serves to

potentially turn your brain into mush and shrink your hippocampus, developing

potential severe psychiatric problems a person would otherwise never

develop were they to not do steroids. Cortisol is often talked about

in weight training circles as being catabolic and muscle wasting.

Well, the effects cortisol has on your muscles and strength levels is

small potatoes compared to what excess cortisol can do to your brain

and cognition.

In fact, an interesting point concerning this topic, is the future of

antidepressant research and development. Currently, a whole new class

of antidepressants are being developed. Called " CRF-Antagonists "

these futuristic antidepressants will target the steroid cortisol

instead of targeting the much talked about brain neurotransmitters

serotonin and norephinephrine. Yes, that is correct...some of the

future antidepressants will most likely seek to prevent

overproduction of the steroid cortisol in the body.

This antidepressant development stems largely from the ideas of guys like

Dr. Nemeroff MD of Emory University. He is the man when it

comes to studying how cortisol levels affect the brain and cause

mental illness. These CRF-Antagonist antidepressants are probably

about ten years away from being marketed; they are in the beginning

stages of development. Some pharmaceutical companies already have CRF-

Antagonists in FDA clinical trials.

Here is a link to one of the pharmaceutical companies currently

trying to develop CRF-antagonist (cortisol blocker) antidepressants:

http://www.neurocrine.com/clinical/anxdep.html

I believe the future will tell us that many, many psychiatric

illnesses stem from too much cortisol being produced. This would only

strengthen the claim that steroids are indeed bad for your brain, bad

for cognition and bad for your mental health. Steroids do nobody any

good long term.

The fact of the matter is that some athletes and non athletes alike

are basically ruining their future mental health by abusing steroids

of all types. Clinical depression, Bipolar manic depression,

obsessional behavior, aggression, etc. is on the horizon for some of

these individuals. The reason? Steroids have the potential to

scramble brain chemistry.

-------------------------

[Guest guest]

Matt, in neuropsychiatry research circles it is becoming increasingly

well established that excess levels of cortisol are responsible for

clinical depression as well as a variety of other psychiatric

illnesses. When levels of naturally occuring cortisol

are " hypersecreted " bad things begin happening to the human body.

More and more scientists are beginning to find out about the negative

effects of too much cortisol.

There are several factors that have the potential to cause

hypersecretion of the steroid cortisol. They are:

1) Chronic overtraining

2) Chronic, severe mental stress...from whatever source be it job

stress, marriage stress, financial stress, medical problems, whatever.

3) Steroid usage...steroids have the potential to cause

hypersecretion of cortisol

So, you can see that steroids do have the potential to cause

psychiatric problems. Its pretty simple Matt, the steroids cause

hypersecretion of cortisol, this has degradating effects on the

brain, including possibly one of the key parts called the

hippocampus. Clinical depression and other bad things can result.

Im not saying it is ALWAYS going to happen. Im not even implying that

steroid usage guarantees you are going to develop a major psychiatric

problem. All Im saying is that it does increase your chances. A

percentage of people who use steroids will probably encounter

problems such as these. And of course, it is oftentimes denied or not

openly admitted.

Riddick

[Guest guest]

Riddick <SpeedStrength@...> wrote:

> Matt, in neuropsychiatry research circles it is becoming

> increasingly well established that excess levels of cortisol are

> responsible for clinical depression as well as a variety of other

> psychiatric illnesses. When levels of naturally occuring cortisol

> are " hypersecreted " bad things begin happening to the human body.

> More and more scientists are beginning to find out about the

> negative effects of too much cortisol.

That's all fairly old news. I'm not arguing against that. (I'm also

not arguing the cortisol is purely bad.)

> There are several factors that have the potential to cause

> hypersecretion of the steroid cortisol. They are:

>

> 1) Chronic overtraining

> 2) Chronic, severe mental stress...from whatever source be it job

> stress, marriage stress, financial stress, medical problems,

> whatever.

> 3) Steroid usage...steroids have the potential to cause

> hypersecretion of cortisol

Steroids may have the potential to boost cortisol, but they don't

normally cause a dramatic boost. In fact, they affect plenty of

hormones to a much, much greater extent. For instance:

Med Sci Sports Exerc 1985 Jun;17(3):354-9

Response of serum hormones to androgen administration in power

athletes.

Alen M, Reinila M, Vihko R

Endocrine effects of self-administration of high doses of anabolic

steroids and testosterone were investigated in five power athletes

during 26 wk of training, and for the following 12-16 wk after drug

withdrawal. After 26 wk of anabolic steroid and testosterone

administration, serum testosterone concentrations had increased

2.3-fold. This was associated with increased concentrations of serum

estradiol, which rose 7-fold to values (0.48 nmol X 1(-1) typical for

females. There was a major decrease in serum FSH and LH

concentrations, but they returned to control levels following drug

withdrawal. However, serum testosterone concentrations stayed at low

levels (9 nmol X 1(-1) ) during this follow-up period, indicating

long-lasting impairment of testicular endocrine function. Serum ACTH

concentrations were also decreased during steroid administration,

possibly due to a corticoid-like effect of some of the anabolic

steroids taken in high doses. However, no changes were seen in serum

cortisol. The only consistent change in the control group was an

increase in serum LH concentrations during the most intensive

training, suggesting that a decreasing tendency of serum testosterone

was compensated for by augmented LH secretion.

The abstract makes reference to some " corticoid-like " effects from

anabolic steroids, but notes that " no changes were seen in serum

cortisol. "

> So, you can see that steroids do have the potential to cause

> psychiatric problems. Its pretty simple Matt, the steroids cause

> hypersecretion of cortisol, this has degradating effects on the

> brain, including possibly one of the key parts called the

> hippocampus. Clinical depression and other bad things can result.

It's just not that simple. More importantly, no matter how nice and

clean your theory may be, most anabolic steroid users don't

demonstrate " roid rage " -- and they show massive increases in

cortisol.

You see much greater effects from good ol' overtraining. " Worn Out

Athlete Rage " anyone?

> Im not saying it is ALWAYS going to happen. Im not even implying

> that steroid usage guarantees you are going to develop a major

> psychiatric problem. All Im saying is that it does increase your

> chances. A percentage of people who use steroids will probably

> encounter problems such as these. And of course, it is oftentimes

> denied or not openly admitted.

A percentage of people who don't use steroids will also encounter

psychiatric problems, and that is often not openly admitted either.

We could probably build just as strong a case that anabolic drugs

promote a sense of well-being, and are thus useful antidepressants.

(By " just as strong " I mean " fairly weak " ...)

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

Bob abd others:

I see no reason why the courts in this country would view steroid use in any

other manner than they would alcohol use, cocaine or amphetamine use,

marijuana or opiate use, in connection with a crime. Rather than being useful

for a " diminished capacity " defense they would tend only to aggravate the

nature of the charge and most likely would result in enhanced penalties. It

would interesting to hear what a knowledgable law enforcement officer or lawyer

on this list would have to add to this topic.

Andy

Riddick wrote:

>

> Bob Helfst wrote:

>

> < , Great point and an interesting topic.

> Since there is a potential neurobiological component to these acts

> of aggression or eccentricity, are they defensible in court? I think

> that some members of the list are attorneys and I would be interested

> in how that situation is viewed in the legal realm. >

>

> Bob, I really dont know the answer to your question. I would think as

> time goes by and we find more out about the neurobiology of

> depression and other severe mental illnesses these questions you ask

> would be able to be answered better.

>

> One thing is for sure is that steroids do increase testosterone and

> also they increase that nasty, naturally produced steroid cortisol.

> When testosterone levels are already " normal " as they are in most

> athletes who begin using steroids, more testosterone via steroids can

> cause depression. In fact, depression is listed as one of the

> possible side effects of steroid use.

>

> Also, increased levels of cortisol does nobody any good and only serves to

potentially turn your brain into mush and shrink your hippocampus, developing

> potential severe psychiatric problems a person would otherwise never

> develop were they to not do steroids. Cortisol is often talked about

> in weight training circles as being catabolic and muscle wasting.

> Well, the effects cortisol has on your muscles and strength levels is

> small potatoes compared to what excess cortisol can do to your brain

> and cognition.

>

> In fact, an interesting point concerning this topic, is the future of

> antidepressant research and development. Currently, a whole new class

> of antidepressants are being developed. Called " CRF-Antagonists "

> these futuristic antidepressants will target the steroid cortisol

> instead of targeting the much talked about brain neurotransmitters

> serotonin and norephinephrine. Yes, that is correct...some of the

> future antidepressants will most likely seek to prevent

> overproduction of the steroid cortisol in the body.

>

> This antidepressant development stems largely from the ideas of guys like

> Dr. Nemeroff MD of Emory University. He is the man when it

> comes to studying how cortisol levels affect the brain and cause

> mental illness. These CRF-Antagonist antidepressants are probably

> about ten years away from being marketed; they are in the beginning

> stages of development. Some pharmaceutical companies already have CRF-

> Antagonists in FDA clinical trials.

>

> Here is a link to one of the pharmaceutical companies currently

> trying to develop CRF-antagonist (cortisol blocker) antidepressants:

>

> http://www.neurocrine.com/clinical/anxdep.html

>

> I believe the future will tell us that many, many psychiatric

> illnesses stem from too much cortisol being produced. This would only

> strengthen the claim that steroids are indeed bad for your brain, bad

> for cognition and bad for your mental health. Steroids do nobody any

> good long term.

>

> The fact of the matter is that some athletes and non athletes alike

> are basically ruining their future mental health by abusing steroids

> of all types. Clinical depression, Bipolar manic depression,

> obsessional behavior, aggression, etc. is on the horizon for some of

> these individuals. The reason? Steroids have the potential to

> scramble brain chemistry.

>

> -------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Quoth Riddick:

>>Krista, it is well known steroids can cause or worsen aggression in

people. However, I wanted to point out that steroids can also cause

full blown psychiatric disorders such as clinical depression and

bipolar manic depression. Very common actually. Oftentimes these

steroid induced psychiatric diseases are extremely difficult to

treat, harder to treat than depressions that occur from more widely

accepted causes such as emotional stress, loneliness, etc.<<

-

Can you please provide citations for this? The only research that I have

seen on the topic suggests a correlational effect between steroids and minor

depressive episodes, as well as the increase in aggression. A lot of people

forget the simple fact that correlation does not imply causation, but aside

from that the only thing that I would be feel comfortable saying about

behavioral changes among steroid users is that they may cause a propensity

for higher incidence of aggression. Note that aggression is different from

violence, and that by increasing propensity of behavior there must already

exist some level of aggression for manifestation of " symptoms " (sic).

Zillah, Washington

----------------

Mel Siff:

***A reply from will not be forthcoming. After repeatedly ignoring rules

of eGroup netiquette, he was reminded of this fact, but refused to comply, so he

ended up resigning from our Supertraining group.

Dr Mel C Siff

Denver, USA

supertraining@...

Group Manager

[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----

From: [sMTP:andesean@...]

Bob and others:

I see no reason why the courts in this country would view steroid use in any

other manner than they would alcohol use, cocaine or amphetamine use,

marijuana or opiate use, in connection with a crime. Rather than being useful

for a " diminished capacity " defense they would tend only to aggravate the

nature of the charge and most likely would result in enhanced penalties. It

would interesting to hear what a knowledgable law enforcement officer or lawyer

on this list would have to add to this topic..

Andy

[Helfst, Bob]

Andy,

That's what I had hoped to hear. My question stemmed from an interest in the

whole issue of diminished capacity if the diminished capacity was

self-inflicted. Just hoping that folks are held accountable.

Bob