Re: Potential Hamstring Imbalance?

[Guest guest]

I think that leg curls are absolutely unnecessary if one does DL ( especially almost stiff-legged)and power cleans.

One of the most common causes of knee pain is tight H/S.

RTH,MDherrickclinic@...www.herrickclinic.com

Potential Hamstring Imbalance?

I have a question concerning hamstring development. By training hamstrings via deadlifts and goodmornings will this result in neglect to some parts of the hamstring? For example, do leg curls emphasise different heads of the hamstring which, if not trained in some way, might then become relatively weaker and more susceptible to injury. The reason I ask this is because there are 4 heads to this muscle - Biceps Femoris (Long Head), Biceps Femoris (Short Head), Semitendinosus, and the Semimembranosus - which seem not to all originate and insert in the same place.

I was also wondering if hamstring or calf problems could result in knee pain.

Cheers,

_______________________

MavromatisDepartment of EconomicsMonash UniversityAUSTRALIA_______________________

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

Winston Churchill.

[Guest guest]

<< I have a question concerning hamstring development. By training hamstrings via deadlifts and goodmornings will this result in neglect to some parts of the hamstring? For example, do leg curls emphasise different heads of the hamstring which, if not trained in some way, might then become relatively weaker and more susceptible to injury. The reason I ask this is because there are 4 heads to this muscle - Biceps Femoris (Long Head), Biceps Femoris (Short Head), Semitendinosus, and the Semimembranosus - which seem not to all originate and insert in the same place.>>

I believe optimal strength and functionality of the entire hamstring group can be achieved if one properly trains the Romanian deadlift, good morning and full (front/back) squat exercises. How frequently are the hamstrings used to flex the knee with high speed/ high force? One instance where this may occur (eccentrically) however, is when the hamstrings are used to decelerate rapid terminal extension of the knee during sprinting/hurdling. Does anyone think the leg curl exercise has any value here?

Burkhardt Strength and Conditioning Coach UC Irvine

[Guest guest]

Mavromatis <.Mavromatis@...> wrote:

> I have a question concerning hamstring development. By training

> hamstrings via deadlifts and goodmornings will this result in

> neglect to some parts of the hamstring? For example, do leg curls

> emphasise different heads of the hamstring which, if not trained in

> some way, might then become relatively weaker and more susceptible

> to injury. The reason I ask this is because there are 4 heads to

> this muscle - Biceps Femoris (Long Head), Biceps Femoris (Short

> Head), Semitendinosus, and the Semimembranosus - which seem not to

> all originate and insert in the same place.

Three of those four heads cross both the hip and knee joints. The

short head of the biceps femoris only crosses the knee though. If

you want to work it effectively, you'll want to perform leg curls (or

otherwise work knee flexion).

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

--- Burkhardt <emburkha@...> wrote:

> I believe optimal strength and functionality of the

> entire hamstring group

> can be achieved if one properly trains the Romanian

> deadlift, good morning

> and full (front/back) squat exercises. How

> frequently are the hamstrings

> used to flex the knee with high speed/ high force?

> One instance where this

> may occur (eccentrically) however, is when the

> hamstrings are used to

> decelerate rapid terminal extension of the knee

> during sprinting/hurdling.

> Does anyone think the leg curl exercise has any

> value here?

Matt Madsen wrote:

> Three of those four heads cross both the hip and

> knee joints. The short head of the biceps femoris

> only crosses the knee though. If you want to work

> it effectively, you'll want to perform leg curls (or

> otherwise work knee flexion).

***If you want to maximally work the hamstrings group,

you have to work each muscle. Stiff-legged deadlifts

don't work the knee joint like curls do.

When we run, are we actively contracting the quads

during any phase except for shock absorption during

heel strike (save the work of the rectus femoris

during the hip flexion of swing phase)? Should we

then stop doing knee extension exercises? Or how

about full lunges? For athletes that run, aren't full

squats more ROM than what is needed? The really only

need, I don't remember, 15-20% knee flexion, so why

should they go further?

Del Signore

Toledo, Ohio

[Guest guest]

--

On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 Matt Madsen wrote:

Mavromatis <.Mavromatis@...> wrote:

>> I have a question concerning hamstring development. By training

>> hamstrings via deadlifts and goodmornings will this result in

>> neglect to some parts of the hamstring? For example, do leg curls

>> emphasise different heads of the hamstring which, if not trained in

>> some way, might then become relatively weaker and more susceptible

>> to injury. The reason I ask this is because there are 4 heads to

>> this muscle - Biceps Femoris (Long Head), Biceps Femoris (Short

>> Head), Semitendinosus, and the Semimembranosus - which seem not to

>> all originate and insert in the same place.

>Three of those four heads cross both the hip and knee joints. The

>short head of the biceps femoris only crosses the knee though. If

>you want to work it effectively, you'll want to perform leg curls (or

>otherwise work knee flexion).

>Matt Madsen

****While this seems logical, I doubt whether it is possible to selectively

activate the short head. It has extensive aponeurotic attachments to the long

head and sometimes even the ischial tuberosity. I believe that it will activate

synergistically. Also, it may be that the short head's most important role is

the stabilisation of the fibula head? Something to think about......

Epsley

Physiotherapist

Brisbane, Australia.

[Guest guest]

Matt Madsen wrote:

> >Three of those four heads cross both the hip and knee joints. The

> >short head of the biceps femoris only crosses the knee though. If

> >you want to work it effectively, you'll want to perform leg curls

> >(or otherwise work knee flexion).

Epsley <physio@...> wrote:

> While this seems logical, I doubt whether it is possible to

> selectively activate the short head.

Completely or at all?

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

Dear Matt,

I don't think there would be any point in biasing the short head of biceps fem

with a leg curl activity. The reason I say this is that when the long head

contracts as a hip extensor and or knee flexor, the short head will

automatically be employed through the neural and myofascial systems. This in my

opinion will sufficiently train the short head.

If you want to completely isolate the short head, then performing a lateral

tibial rotation with the knee flexed would achieve this. This adds to the

function of the short head, ie. it helps to control tibiofemoral rotation in the

flexed knee.

However, I can see no benefit in training this muscle with leg curls because we

have established the following functions of short head of biceps fem:

1. Hip extensor and knee flexor (or a knee extensor with a flexed hip -

something to ponder....let me know what you think)

2. Controls tibiofemoral rotation

3. Controls head of fibula

I see no reason then, why squats, lunges, and plyometrics, as well as sport

specific training would not offer sufficient strength to this muscle group as

would be necessary for most sports. I'm not sure about sprinting though, as I

read that post and agree that you pull through with the hams...would leg curls

help here???

What does the list think?

Regards,

Epsley

Physiotherapist

Brisbane, Australia.

--

On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 Matt Madsen wrote:

>Matt Madsen wrote:

>

>> >Three of those four heads cross both the hip and knee joints. The

>> >short head of the biceps femoris only crosses the knee though. If

>> >you want to work it effectively, you'll want to perform leg curls

>> >(or otherwise work knee flexion).

>

> Epsley <physio@...> wrote:

>

>> While this seems logical, I doubt whether it is possible to

>> selectively activate the short head.

>

>Completely or at all?

>

>Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

Epsley <physio@...> wrote:

> I don't think there would be any point in biasing the short head of

> biceps femoris with a leg curl activity. The reason I say this is that

> when the long head contracts as a hip extensor and or knee flexor,

> the short head will automatically be employed through the neural

> and myofascial systems. This in my opinion will sufficiently train

> the short head.

Earlier, when you said, " I doubt whether it is possible to

selectively activate the short head, " I asked, " Completely or at

all? " I really do think it's a matter of degree.

Will your biceps fem's short head atrophy away without leg curls?

No, I doubt it. Might you develop more balanced hamstrings with leg

curls added into the mix? I think so.

We know, for instance, that performing curls with the long head

fairly lax (e.g. preacher curls or concentration curls) won't improve

strength in a position with the long head stretched (e.g. incline

curls), at least not much.

> If you want to completely isolate the short head, then performing a

> lateral tibial rotation with the knee flexed would achieve this.

> This adds to the function of the short head, ie. it helps to

> control tibiofemoral rotation in the flexed knee.

Interesting idea. Of course, you don't have to isolate the short

head; you simply have to use it enough to stress it.

> However, I can see no benefit in training this muscle with leg

> curls because we have established the following functions of short

> head of biceps fem:

>

> 1. Hip extensor and knee flexor (or a knee extensor with a flexed

> hip - something to ponder....let me know what you think)

The short head? As a hip flexor?

And I definitely need a good explanation of how it'd serve as a knee

extensor.

> 2. Controls tibiofemoral rotation

> 3. Controls head of fibula

>

> I see no reason then, why squats, lunges, and plyometrics, as well

> as sport specific training would not offer sufficient strength to

> this muscle group as would be necessary for most sports.

If you can find good ways to load the hams in those roles, go for it.

I'm not sure the short head will get hit too hard with squats

though, or even lunges and plyos. I certainly don't get sore there

after those exercises.

> I'm not sure about sprinting though, as I read that post and agree

> that you pull through with the hams...would leg curls help here???

I'm sure they would -- a litte bit. Ideally you'd work the hams and

hips together. Sled pulling is great for that. Carting your friends

around in a rickshaw might work well too...

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

A Casler <bioforce@...> wrote:

> What do you mean by " Might you develop more balanced hamstrings

> with leg curls added into the mix " ?

>

> I question what " balanced " might mean in this instance and why you

> think including an " unbalanced " exercise would provide an advantage

> in " functional " conditioning? If you are referring " bodybuilding "

> then I understand.

If you have a perfectly " balanced " exercise, one that uses muscles in

the same proportions as you use them in your target sport, by all

means, stick with that One True Exercise.

On the other hand, if you're training for an activity, say, that

involves both knee flexion and hip flexion, and you have a choice of

exercises that involve hip flexion (e.g. Stiff-Legged Deadlifts) and

others that involve knee flexion (e.g. Leg Curls), peforming one or

the other isn't balanced.

Granted, neither set of exercises alone is ideal, and neither will

work the same motor pattern as sprinting, but the two combined

movements should provide the structural adaptations you're looking

for -- even if you're not a narcissistic bodybuilder concerned solely

with aesthetics.

From another perspective, sometimes two sporting movements overlap

too much to effectively train in the same time frame, and a more

" balanced " routine might avoid what should be an ideal,

perfectly-specific exercise.

For instance, some of the best powerlifters in the world, the guys in

the Westside Barbell Club, don't train the Deadlift much at all.

It's one of the three competitive lifts (Squat, Bench, Deadlift), but

it overlaps so much with the Squat that training in a perfectly

sport-specific manner overtrains the common elements.

Instead, since they feel the Deadlift has an easier " groove " to find

(not necessarily my experience, by the way), they sacrifice it and

train primarily Squats. They hit their backs via Good Mornings, etc.

> > We know, for instance, that performing curls with the long head

> > fairly lax (e.g. preacher curls or concentration curls) won't

> > improve strength in a position with the long head stretched (e.g.

> > incline curls), at least not much.

>

> Is this anecdotal or referenced?

I've seen it referenced, but I don't have anything on-hand. It has

been my personal (anecdotal) experience though.

> Would you then conclude similarly that the gastros do not receive

> benefit from " bent kneed " work?

Not much. And personally, I have no trouble putting my gastrocs in

agony with standing calf work (or donkey calf raises), while they

don't feel a thing from seated calf raises.

> I'm not convinced that placing an " unnatural " reactive force

> pad in front of the knee and training against force at the back of

> the heel would provide anything but " un-balance " to the motor

> pattern and strength of the group.

Yes, obviously leg curls alone should have little benefit for a

sprinter, and they certainly don't match the motor pattern of

sprinting. Added to a program lacking work for the biceps fem's

short head though, they might balance out structural development.

> > Sled pulling is great for that. Carting your friends around in a

> > rickshaw might work well too...

>

> Actually even though your examples are slightly " tongue in cheek " ,

> they do offer a " loaded kinetic chain " application that

> supplies " real balance " of strength and motor patterns that can be

> more easily " translated " in most cases.

Definitely. The second suggestion was only mildly tongue in cheek,

and the first not at all.

Incidentally, the Westside guys suggest weighted sled pulling --

based on the anecdotal evidence that some Finnish lumber jacks lifted

quite well with their background pulling logs behind them in the

snow. Scientific? Um, not exactly. Is it working? It seems to.

It does seem only natural for football linemen though.

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

Dear Matt,

Thanks for your interesting posts and comments - it is a great discussion.

I realise that I made an error in my comment on hamstrings as a

1. Hip extensor and knee flexor (or a knee extensor with a flexed

hip - something to ponder....let me know what you think)

I realise now that in my mind I was thinking of the biceps femoris complex - not

short head in isolation -sorry.

Now, how it might extend the knee with a flexed hip - again I realise that the

idea I was thinking of would be applicable to the long head and semimem/semiten.

Now you might need to help me out here - but at uni we learned something about a

paradox in cycling - I would have to look it up - where a muscle acts opposite

to its isolated function. You might know what I 'm talking about? What I was

thinking was that as the hip is flexed, the hamstrings may contract to aid hip

extension, which, when the foot is fixed actually extends the knee. It would

almost be an isometric contraction I would think.

Anyway, sorry about those errors, I was thinking about it as I wrote - not

actually quoting from knowledge already held.

Again let me know what you think.

Regards,

.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2000, Matt Madsen wrote:

Epsley <physio@...> wrote:

>> I don't think there would be any point in biasing the short head of

>> biceps femoris with a leg curl activity. The reason I say this is that

>> when the long head contracts as a hip extensor and or knee flexor,

>> the short head will automatically be employed through the neural

>> and myofascial systems. This in my opinion will sufficiently train

>> the short head.

>Earlier, when you said, " I doubt whether it is possible to

>selectively activate the short head, " I asked, " Completely or at

>all? " I really do think it's a matter of degree.

>Will your biceps fem's short head atrophy away without leg curls?

>No, I doubt it. Might you develop more balanced hamstrings with leg

>curls added into the mix? I think so.

>We know, for instance, that performing curls with the long head

>fairly lax (e.g. preacher curls or concentration curls) won't improve

>strength in a position with the long head stretched (e.g. incline

>curls), at least not much.

>> If you want to completely isolate the short head, then performing a

>> lateral tibial rotation with the knee flexed would achieve this.

>> This adds to the function of the short head, ie. it helps to

>> control tibiofemoral rotation in the flexed knee.

>Interesting idea. Of course, you don't have to isolate the short

>head; you simply have to use it enough to stress it.

>> However, I can see no benefit in training this muscle with leg

>> curls because we have established the following functions of short

>> head of biceps fem:

>The short head? As a hip flexor?

>

>And I definitely need a good explanation of how it'd serve as a knee

>extensor.

>> 2. Controls tibiofemoral rotation

>> 3. Controls head of fibula

>>

>> I see no reason then, why squats, lunges, and plyometrics, as well

>> as sport specific training would not offer sufficient strength to

>> this muscle group as would be necessary for most sports.

>

>If you can find good ways to load the hams in those roles, go for it.

> I'm not sure the short head will get hit too hard with squats

>though, or even lunges and plyos. I certainly don't get sore there

>after those exercises.

>> I'm not sure about sprinting though, as I read that post and agree

>> that you pull through with the hams...would leg curls help here???

>I'm sure they would -- a litte bit. Ideally you'd work the hams and

>hips together. Sled pulling is great for that. Carting your friends

>around in a rickshaw might work well too...

>

>Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

Epsley <physio@...> wrote:

Dear Matt,

> Thanks for your interesting posts and comments - it is a great

> discussion.

Thank YOU, .

> I realise that I made an error in my comment on hamstrings as a

> 1. Hip extensor and knee flexor (or a knee extensor with a flexed

> hip - something to ponder....let me know what you think)

>

> I realise now that in my mind I was thinking of the biceps femoris

> complex - not short head in isolation -sorry.

No prob.

> Now, how it might extend the knee with a flexed hip - again I

> realise that the idea I was thinking of would be applicable to the

> long head and semimem/semiten. Now you might need to help me out

> here - but at uni we learned something about a paradox in cycling -

> I would have to look it up - where a muscle acts opposite to its

> isolated function. You might know what I 'm talking about? What I

> was thinking was that as the hip is flexed, the hamstrings may

> contract to aid hip extension, which, when the foot is fixed

> actually extends the knee. It would almost be an isometric

> contraction I would think.

Hmm...I don't see it.

A common scenario you might have, though, is a muscle acting on one

joint the way you want (as the agonist), but against the movement you

want on another joint (as the antogonist). For instance, in a

hanging knee raise, the hamstrings flex the knees (good), but they

also try to extend the hips (bad). Or in a squat, they extend the

hips (good), but try to flex the knees (bad).

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

Matt Madsen <mmadsen@...> wrote:

>For instance, in a

>hanging knee raise, the hamstrings flex the knees (good), but they

>also try to extend the hips (bad). Or in a squat, they extend the

>hips (good), but try to flex the knees (bad).

Speaking on the squat, I have trouble visualizing this hamstring extension

action. It would seem that the load, once the tension at the knees is

broken, would be mainly responsible for with the quads acting eccentrically

to determine speed of descent.

I would appreciate your setting me straight(er) on this.

Joe Alden

[Guest guest]

Dear Matt,

I found the relevent article: Consider the downstroke in cycling:

" The two major muscle groups active during this activity are the hamstrings and

vasti. The pedal reaction force provides an extending moment at the knee and a

flexing moment at the hip which must be countered by muscle activity. The

biarticular hamstrings, with their long fibres, are ideal for providing smaller

forces over large excursions. In cycling larger forces are required and the

body can accommodate this by recruiting the vasti. Such a method would seem to

introduce a paradoxical movement in unwanted knee extension. However, when the

vasti contract, knee extension is prevented by simultaneous hamstring

contraction. A transfer of force from the vasti to the hamstrings provides an

augmented and powerful hip extension such that the hamstrings maintain isometry,

thus conserving energy, whilst acting as a 'muscular ligament'. Inactivity of

muscles may be equally important.

It should be noted that biceps femoris, a monoarticular knee flexor, is not

active. This is because some amount of controlled knee extension still occurs,

implicating an energy wasting eccentric contraction of biceps femoris should it

be active. This does not occur with the biarticular hamstrings due to the

accompanying hip extension. "

Now this blows my theory that biceps femoris couldn't operate in pure isolation

doesn't it. (Learning is great - you end up looking like an idiot at some point

in the process!!).

However, what I am saying about the hamstrings acting as a knee extensor is the

reverse of this theory. The hamstrings act to extend the hip. Thus they

shorten (ie. hip extension) they simulataneously are being required to lengthen

(knee extension). This occurs by an isometric contraction - effectively acting

like that " ligament " the article proposed. The gluts transfer energy through

this hamstring " ligament " to enhance the quadriceps contraction.

I think it makes sense now - what do you think?

Regards,

Epsley.

-----------

On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 Matt Madsen wrote:

Epsley <physio@...> wrote:

Dear Matt,

>> Thanks for your interesting posts and comments - it is a great

>> discussion.

>

>Thank YOU, .

>

>> I realise that I made an error in my comment on hamstrings as a

>> 1. Hip extensor and knee flexor (or a knee extensor with a flexed

>> hip - something to ponder....let me know what you think)

>>

>> I realise now that in my mind I was thinking of the biceps femoris

>> complex - not short head in isolation -sorry.

>

>No prob.

>

>> Now, how it might extend the knee with a flexed hip - again I

>> realise that the idea I was thinking of would be applicable to the

>> long head and semimem/semiten. Now you might need to help me out

>> here - but at uni we learned something about a paradox in cycling -

>> I would have to look it up - where a muscle acts opposite to its

>> isolated function. You might know what I 'm talking about? What I

>> was thinking was that as the hip is flexed, the hamstrings may

>> contract to aid hip extension, which, when the foot is fixed

>> actually extends the knee. It would almost be an isometric

>> contraction I would think.

>

>Hmm...I don't see it.

>

>A common scenario you might have, though, is a muscle acting on one

>joint the way you want (as the agonist), but against the movement you

>want on another joint (as the antogonist). For instance, in a

>hanging knee raise, the hamstrings flex the knees (good), but they

>also try to extend the hips (bad). Or in a squat, they extend the

>hips (good), but try to flex the knees (bad).

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

Joe Alden <joealden@...> wrote:

Matt Madsen <mmadsen@...> wrote:

> > For instance, in a hanging knee raise, the hamstrings flex the

> > knees (good), but they also try to extend the hips (bad). Or in

> > a squat, they extend the hips (good), but try to flex the knees

> > (bad).

>

> Speaking on the squat, I have trouble visualizing this hamstring

> extension action.

------------------

Although we think of the hamstrings as knee flexors, most of them

(except for the short head of the biceps femoris) cross the hip joint

too, where they act as hip extensors, like the glutes.

They're basically " designed " for running, where you want both hip

extension and knee flexion (or resistance to knee extension) to

propel you forward.

> It would seem that the load, once the tension at the knees is

> broken, would be mainly responsible for with the quads acting

> eccentrically to determine speed of descent.

The quads do resist the knee flexion of the descent, and they do

extend the knees on the way up. The hamstrings aid the glutes in hip

extension and -- unfortunately -- counter the quads at the knee.

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

>Matt Madsen <mmadsen@...> wrote:

>Although we think of the hamstrings as knee flexors, most of them

>(except for the short head of the biceps femoris) cross the hip joint

>too, where they act as hip extensors, like the glutes.

>

>They're basically " designed " for running, where you want both hip

>extension and knee flexion (or resistance to knee extension) to

>propel you forward.

>The quads do resist the knee flexion of the descent, and they do

>extend the knees on the way up. The hamstrings aid the glutes in hip

>extension and -- unfortunately -- counter the quads at the knee.

One of the reasons I asked for an explanation is that, in proposing training

for the hamstrings for running/sprinting athletes, do you allow the squat to

be the major exercise in their development? Every program, and trainee, has

its volume limitations. The squat appears to train the hamstrings very well

eccentrically. We use a cable exercise that simulates the running stride

(hooked at the foot, pull cable with hip extension, curl leg, drive knee

forward, repeat) to concentrically engage the hamstrings. I was just

wondering if you thought that concentric hamstring training, in this manner,

would be wise? I don't see the benefit of leg curls or glute/ham raises or

good mornings unless you are after hypertrophy.

Joe Alden

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[Guest guest]

Matt Madsen wrote:

> > It would seem that the load, once the tension at the knees is

> > broken, would be mainly responsible for with the quads acting

> > eccentrically to determine speed of descent.

>

> The quads do resist the knee flexion of the descent, and they do

> extend the knees on the way up. The hamstrings aid the glutes in hip

> extension and -- unfortunately -- counter the quads at the knee.

>

> Matt Madsen

>

This isn't always unfortunate. This natural process is called

co-contraction and helps stabilise the knee joint.

Loren Chiu

[Guest guest]

Joe Alden <joealden@...> wrote:

> One of the reasons I asked for an explanation is that, in proposing

> training for the hamstrings for running/sprinting athletes, do you

> allow the squat to be the major exercise in their development?

I wouldn't. If anything, I'd rely on Stiff-Legged (Romanian)

Deadlifts.

> The squat appears to train the hamstrings very well

> eccentrically.

Hmm...I'm not sure if it technically is an eccentric action. Perhaps

it is. It's extending the hip and fighting extension of the knee.

> We use a cable exercise that simulates the running stride

> (hooked at the foot, pull cable with hip extension, curl leg,

> drive knee forward, repeat) to concentrically engage the

> hamstrings. I was just wondering if you thought that concentric

> hamstring training, in this manner, would be wise?

It sounds reasonable. An elastic band might work better than a cable

connected to a weight stack though (if that's what you're using). I

can easily see a weight stack with any momentum just popping an ACL.

You can use a band at higher speed without that problem.

> I don't see the benefit of leg curls or glute/ham raises or

> good mornings unless you are after hypertrophy.

I don't think hypertrophy's such a dirty word really. As long as

you're building the right muscles in roughly the right amounts, I

think you're weight training fairly well. It's not like the skill of

performing a lift carries over to the sporting movement.

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

Epsley <physio@...> wrote:

> I found the relevent article: Consider the downstroke in cycling:

The downstroke in cycling matches the description I gave for a squat

-- and the upstroke would match the description I gave for a hanging

knee raise.

> " The two major muscle groups active during this activity are the

> hamstrings and vasti. The pedal reaction force provides an

> extending moment at the knee and a flexing moment at the hip which

> must be countered by muscle activity. The biarticular hamstrings,

> with their long fibres, are ideal for providing smaller forces over

> large excursions. In cycling larger forces are required and the

> body can accommodate this by recruiting the vasti. Such a method

> would seem to introduce a paradoxical movement in unwanted knee

> extension. However, when the vasti contract, knee extension is

> prevented by simultaneous hamstring contraction. A transfer of

> force from the vasti to the hamstrings provides an augmented and

> powerful hip extension such that the hamstrings maintain isometry,

> thus conserving energy, whilst acting as a 'muscular ligament'.

> Inactivity of muscles may be equally important.

Yes, that was exactly what I described. I'm surprised the glutes

don't warrant much mention though.

> It should be noted that biceps femoris, a monoarticular knee

> flexor, is not active. This is because some amount of controlled

> knee extension still occurs, implicating an energy wasting

> eccentric contraction of biceps femoris should it be active. This

> does not occur with the biarticular hamstrings due to the

> accompanying hip extension. "

Right. All the hamstrings cross both the hip joint and the knee

joint (they're " biarticular " ), except for the poor little biceps

femoris; it only crosses the knee.

If you're using your hamstrings as hip extensors, as in a squat or a

cycling downstroke, the biceps fem shouldn't be particularly active.

After all, it would just counter your quads without adding any hip

extension.

> However, what I am saying about the hamstrings acting as a knee

> extensor is the reverse of this theory. The hamstrings act to

> extend the hip. Thus they shorten (ie. hip extension) they

> simulataneously are being required to lengthen (knee extension).

> This occurs by an isometric contraction - effectively acting like

> that " ligament " the article proposed. The gluts transfer energy

> through this hamstring " ligament " to enhance the quadriceps

> contraction.

I don't see it. If you contract the hamstrings, they extend the hip

and flex the knee.

If you contract your quads, you can counter the knee flexion and even

overcome it, while still extending the hip quite nicely.

If you don't contract the quads but you do contract some hip flexors,

you can counter the hip extension, all while still flexing the knees.

Matt Madsen

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> Joe Alden <joealden@...> wrote:

>

> > One of the reasons I asked for an explanation is that, in proposing

> > training for the hamstrings for running/sprinting athletes, do you

> > allow the squat to be the major exercise in their development?

BIO-FORCE writes:

Hi Joe,

I would think Squats offer a general " basic or raw " strength foundation for

running/sprinting. The biggest drawback to activities like running (Where

all activation is alternated) is that it activates both sides in a

simultaneous pattern.

" Step forward Lunges " might offer a " slightly " better choice. If you wish

to take another step up the " specificity " ladder, you can do the lunges with

a " seriously " weighted vest and dumbbells in each hand performing " sprinters

curls " as the lunges are performed.

Note: these do not take the place of squats for maximum " basic/raw " strength

since the weight is not as great. They do, however produce a " translation "

into the lunges which then can be translated into the running motion.

Another recommendation is that you take advantage of the " excited " CNS (post

tetanic response) at this point and actually do some " light " sprints

immediately after to further refine the translation. These should be

" light " and for form and technique only, concentrating on quick arm and leg

drive speed.

Joe Alden wrote:

> > The squat appears to train the hamstrings very well

> > eccentrically.

BIO-FORCE writes:

The hamstrings are active in both the eccentric and concentric actions of

the squat or any hip extension.

Joe Alden wrote:

use a cable exercise that simulates the running stride

> > (hooked at the foot, pull cable with hip extension, curl leg,

> > drive knee forward, repeat) to concentrically engage the

> > hamstrings. I was just wondering if you thought that concentric

> > hamstring training, in this manner, would be wise?

Matt Madsen wrote:

>Sounds reasonable. An elastic band might work better than a cable

> connected to a weight stack though (if that's what you're using). I

> can easily see a weight stack with any momentum just popping an ACL.

> You can use a band at higher speed without that problem.

BIO-FORCE writes:

I have had excellent results by " combining " the weighted and elastic band

version in the same exercise for both concentric and eccentric actions. If

you use a " hi/lo cable " system see if you can " attach a band " or bungee cord

to the weight stack or above its cable, so that it adds force where you want

it. I attach the cord so that it engages at a predetermined point, as the

weight stack begins its upward motion.

It (the band) also has a tendency to " brake " the inertia of the weights

forces used and provides a " great " eccentric force too, with out the fear of

to much ballistic action. It should be noted that you will have to reduce

the initial weight (force) since the band will provide additional force.

You will, as mentioned above, have to " adjust " the weights and forces

initially to find the right balance but it is definitely an interesting use

of the two force systems.

Regards,

A. Casler

BIO-FORCE, Inc.

" Sweat Happens "

[Guest guest]

bi0force wrote :

Step forward Lunges " might offer a " slightly " better choice. If you wish

to take another step up the " specificity " ladder, you can do the lunges with

a " seriously " weighted vest and dumbbells in each hand performing " sprinters

curls " as the lunges are performed.

Note: these do not take the place of squats for maximum " basic/raw " strength

since the weight is not as great. They do, however produce a " translation "

into the lunges which then can be translated into the running motion.

Yessis writes:

I am somewhat confused. How can the lunge be translated into the running

stride? I use it mainly for stretching the hip flexors and secondarily

for leg strength.

Joe Alden wrote:

use a cable exercise that simulates the running stride

> > (hooked at the foot, pull cable with hip extension, curl leg,

> > drive knee forward, repeat) to concentrically engage the

> > hamstrings. I was just wondering if you thought that concentric

> > hamstring training, in this manner, would be wise?

Yessis writes:

I also do not understand this exercise Are starting hip extension with

the leg in front of the body and if so how high? Do you pull the leg down

and back until touchdown (leg under the body) or do you pull as far back as

possible? Does the leg curl take place with the leg under the body or

well behind the body ?When you start the knee drive where is the swing leg

thigh? When do you stop the knee drive,ie angle in the hip joint? What is

the speed of execution? It is necessary to have answers to these question

before you can state with any degree of accuracy exactly what the

involvement is of the hamstrings and other involved muscles. The technique

of execution is critical to not only muscle involvement (and development)

but also to effectiveness of the exercise (and run)

Since Matt Madsen and Casler appeared to understand the exercise with

the suggestion given perhaps they too can respond to my queries.

Dr. Yessis

President Sports Training, Inc.

www.dryessis.com

760-480-0558.

----- Original Message -----

From: " bioforce " <bioforce.inc@...>

> > Joe Alden <joealden@...> wrote:

> >

> > > One of the reasons I asked for an explanation is that, in proposing

> > > training for the hamstrings for running/sprinting athletes, do you

> > > allow the squat to be the major exercise in their development?

>

> BIO-FORCE writes:

> Hi Joe,

> I would think Squats offer a general " basic or raw " strength foundation

for

> running/sprinting. The biggest drawback to activities like running (Where

> all activation is alternated) is that it activates both sides in a

> simultaneous pattern.

>

> " Step forward Lunges " might offer a " slightly " better choice. If you wish

> to take another step up the " specificity " ladder, you can do the lunges

> with a " seriously " weighted vest and dumbbells in each hand performing

> " sprinters curls " as the lunges are performed.

>

> Note: these do not take the place of squats for maximum " basic/raw "

> strength since the weight is not as great. They do, however produce a

> " translation " into the lunges which then can be translated into the running

> motion.

>

> Another recommendation is that you take advantage of the " excited " CNS

> (post tetanic response) at this point and actually do some " light " sprints

> immediately after to further refine the translation. These should be

> " light " and for form and technique only, concentrating on quick arm and

> leg drive speed.

>

> Joe Alden wrote:

> > > The squat appears to train the hamstrings very well

> > > eccentrically.

>

> BIO-FORCE writes:

> The hamstrings are active in both the eccentric and concentric actions of

> the squat or any hip extension.

>

> Joe Alden wrote:

> use a cable exercise that simulates the running stride

> > > (hooked at the foot, pull cable with hip extension, curl leg,

> > > drive knee forward, repeat) to concentrically engage the

> > > hamstrings. I was just wondering if you thought that concentric

> > > hamstring training, in this manner, would be wise?

>

> Matt Madsen wrote:

> >Sounds reasonable. An elastic band might work better than a cable

> > connected to a weight stack though (if that's what you're using). I

> > can easily see a weight stack with any momentum just popping an ACL.

> > You can use a band at higher speed without that problem.

>

> BIO-FORCE writes:

> I have had excellent results by " combining " the weighted and elastic band

> version in the same exercise for both concentric and eccentric actions.

If

> you use a " hi/lo cable " system see if you can " attach a band " or bungee

cord

> to the weight stack or above its cable, so that it adds force where you

want

> it. I attach the cord so that it engages at a predetermined point, as the

> weight stack begins its upward motion.

>

> It (the band) also has a tendency to " brake " the inertia of the weights

> forces used and provides a " great " eccentric force too, with out the fear

of

> to much ballistic action. It should be noted that you will have to reduce

> the initial weight (force) since the band will provide additional force.

>

> You will, as mentioned above, have to " adjust " the weights and forces

> initially to find the right balance but it is definitely an interesting

> use of the two force systems.

>

> Regards,

>

> A. Casler

[Guest guest]

Matt Madsen wrote:

> >Sounds reasonable. An elastic band might work better than a cable

> > connected to a weight stack though (if that's what you're using).

> > I can easily see a weight stack with any momentum just popping an

> > ACL. You can use a band at higher speed without that problem.

Casler<bioforce.inc@...> wrote:

>

> I have had excellent results by " combining " the weighted and

> elastic band version in the same exercise for both concentric and

> eccentric actions. If you use a " hi/lo cable " system see if you

> can " attach a band " or bungee cord to the weight stack or above its

> cable, so that it adds force where you want it. I attach the cord

> so that it engages at a predetermined point, as the weight stack

> begins its upward motion.

I almost suggested that, but I've never actually tried it myself.

Very " Westside " ...

Matt Madsen

[Guest guest]

>Joe Alden wrote:

>

>use a cable exercise that simulates the running stride

> > > (hooked at the foot, pull cable with hip extension, curl leg,

> > > drive knee forward, repeat) to concentrically engage the

> > > hamstrings. I was just wondering if you thought that concentric

> > > hamstring training, in this manner, would be wise?

>Yessis writes:

>I also do not understand this exercise.....

Think of a standing hip extension, foot path under hip, with a leg curl at

the extensions near-complete ROM.

The original issue was " Is it necessary to train the hamstrings

concentrically " if you are doing squat variations. And if so, how to train

them other than the traditional machine exercises of the leg curl or the

standing, limb-immobile versions of the Good Morning or SLDL.

Joe Alden

_________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

I think the glute-ham-gastroc raise on the Yessis machine fits what

you are describing. Are you familiar with this exercise done on this

equipment?

<use a cable exercise that simulates the running stride (hooked at the foot,

pull cable with hip extension, curl leg, drive knee forward, repeat) to

concentrically engage the hamstrings. I was just wondering if you thought that

concentric hamstring training, in this manner, would be wise? .

Dr Yessis writes:

<I also do not understand this exercise.....>

> Think of a standing hip extension, foot path under hip, with a leg

> curl at the extensions near-complete ROM.

>

> The original issue was " Is it necessary to train the hamstrings

> concentrically " if you are doing squat variations. And if so, how

> to train them other than the traditional machine exercises of the leg curl

> or the standing, limb-immobile versions of the Good Morning or SLDL.

>

> Joe Alden