Guest guest Posted August 8, 2000 Report Share Posted August 8, 2000 Hi Mel...It's been awhile and hope you are well. I focus almost exclusively on volleyball and when I incorporate any plyo drops I try and use a mini-tramp to enhance proprioceptive feedback and adjustment. We will drop the athletes (actually they drop themselves) from a height more significant than if we landed straight to the ground onto a mini-tramp where they will initially just stabilize the landing in an athletic posture. Then we move up to actually passing a volleyball upon landing. The next stage is landing on the tramp and immediately pushing off into the air to land on ground - stabilized. Then a ball is issued into play. Finally upon landing on the ground the athlete is to move to a spot, progressively a ball is initiated again - randomly so the athlete must land and initiate a movement to a ball. Reps are low once ground contact is inititated. Josh Katz 513.474.7465 800.244.2316 978.418.8952 Fax jkatz1@... PREP Performance info@... http://www.prepperformance.com NOVEL PLYOMETRICS Drop jumps and various standing drills are so widely used as a means of plyometric training that we often seem to forget that they classically may be done in many other ways, such as using the common children's swing that we all used to play upon in public parks. With the latter, you simply arrange a swing near a wall so that you can swing to different heights and strike the wall with your feet to provide the rebound. For those who have our textbook, " Supertraining " (Siff & Verkhoshansky 1999), see p275 for diagrams of this exercise. In this way you do not have to buy a big supply of costly " plyo " boxes - all that you need is some rope, wood and something to hang your swing from and you have a very controllable plyometric training device. With a little ingenuity, you can even arrange a wooden wall at hand height that will allow you to shove off with the hands, as well. ( " Supertraining " p275 for diagrams.) Of course, you can make these devices more sophisticated and technical so that you can carry out accurate biomechanical measurements with them. For those who have our textbook, " Supertraining " , page 219, you will see a diagram of a special plyometric bench that my senior engineering students constructed at the University of the Witwatersrand (South Africa) in 1992. The same students also constructed various upper and lower body swings with built in load cells or force plates to measure the forces exerted during impact. Quite recently I came across the following research article that carried out much the same sort of work that my engineers had been doing. I think that many of you will find the results interesting. ---------------------------------------- Fowler NE, Lees A & Reilly T Changes in stature following plyometric drop-jump and pendulum exercises. Ergonomics 1997 Dec; 40(12):1279-86 The aim of this study was to compare the changes in stature following the performance of plyometric exercises using drop-jumps and a pendulum swing. Eight male participants aged 21.7 +/- 1.8 years with experience of plyometric training gave their informed consent to act as subjects. Participants undertook two exercise regimens and a 15-min standing test in a random order. The exercises entailed the performance of 50 drop-jumps from a height of 0.28 m or 50 pendulum rebounds (off a wall). Participants were instructed to perform maximal jumps or rebounds using a 'bounce' style. Measurements of stature were performed after a 20-min period of standing (pre-exercise), 2-min after exercise (post-exercise) and after a 20-min standing recovery (recovery). Back pain and muscle soreness were assessed using an analogue-visual scale, at each of the above times and also 24 hours and 36 hours after the test. Peak torque during isokinetic knee extension at 1.04 rad per sec was measured immediately before and after the exercise bouts, to assess the degree of muscular fatigue. Ground/wall reaction force data were recorded using a Kistler force platform mounted in the floor for drop-jumps and vertically on the rebound wall for pendulum exercises. Drop-jumps resulted in the greatest change in stature (-2.71 mm), compared to pendulum exercises (-1.77 mm) and standing (-0.39mm). Both exercise regimens resulted in a significant decrease in stature when compared to the standing condition. Drop-jumps resulted in significantly greater peak impact forces (p < 0.05) than pendulum exercises (drop-jumps = 3.2 x body weight, pendulum = 2.6 x body weight). The two exercise conditions both invoked a small degree of muscle soreness but there were no significant differences between either. Both exercise regimens resulted in a non-significant decrease in peak torque, indicating a similar degree of muscular fatigue. Based on the lower in height and lower peak forces, it can be concluded that pendulum exercises pose a lower injury potential to the lower back than drop-jumps performed from a height of 28 cm. ------------------------------------- ***What does this mean for the coach? Well, first of all, it stresses that there is a very real place for use of the PLYOMETRIC SWING as a safe and effective form of explosive training. Secondly, it shows that the *potential* for injury is greater with drop jumps, because of the greater impact forces exerted on the whole body. However, it needs to be pointed out that the body can adapt to such stresses, but this potential for injury is a good reason why any drop jumps should be prescribed carefully and intelligently, especially among novices whose musculoskeletal system has not adequately adapted to the impulsive loading. Regarding the experiment, it should also be pointed out that, if 50 repetitions are to be done, then it is essential that they be done in limited sets of a few repetitions at a time, not like some sort of endurance exercise. In the USA many coaches tend to prescribe far too many plyometric repetitions at a time. More is not necessarily better. In the case of plyometrics, quality is definitely more important than quantity. Dr Mel C Siff Denver, USA mcsiff@... supertraining Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2000 Report Share Posted August 8, 2000 I have a question, Josh . . . how is jumping on a mini-tramp specific to movement on a hard court? As someone who has worked with V-ball players for about a decade or so, i want to incorporate things that are specific to vball. However, this kind of tactic would be great for adolescent athletes who are beginning a jump training program for the first time. No sarcasm intended, btw . . . just curiosity. Chad Hackler BS, CSCS Director of Personal Training (DJ Hakdaddy to my musical peers) web site: http://hometown.aol.com/hakman8/myhomepage/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2000 Report Share Posted August 8, 2000 I'll drop the debate as to what " true plyometrics " could be defined as. Specifically, drop-rebound jumps, for vertical height and horizontal distance, weighted and from varying heights, are the most advanced plyometric exercises I use. If you mean by " true plyometrics " the lower, not the upper, end of the shock and skill spectrum of plyometric activity, (rope jumping for instance), the majority of athletes I deal with benefit very nicely from " true plyometrics " . It's a matter not which is better but most appropriate. Joe On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:01:19 -0700 " Dr. Yessis " <dryessis@...> wrote: > Just a few words regarding novel plyometrics. I firmly believe that > drop > jumps and box jumps can be of great value in the training of jumpers > and > other power athletes. I just wonder if perhaps we're not putting too > much > emphasis on box and drop jumps and not on true plyometric jumps. I > find > true plyometric jumps much more beneficial for improving muscle > resilience > and getting athletes to be more explosive, especially in sports that > require > jumping and running. Too often we never fully capitalize on teh > basics and > are more impressed with novel exercises. > > Dr. Yessis > President Sports Training Inc. > www.dryessis.com > 760-480-0558 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Hakman8@...> > <supertrainingegroups> > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 12:26 PM > Subjec NOVEL PLYOMETRICS > > > > I have a question, Josh . . . how is jumping on a mini-tramp > specific to > > movement on a hard court? As someone who has worked with V-ball > players > for > > about a decade or so, i want to incorporate things that are > specific to > > vball. However, this kind of tactic would be great for adolescent > athletes > > who are beginning a jump training program for the first time. No > sarcasm > > intended, btw . . . just curiosity. > > > > Chad Hackler BS, CSCS > > Director of Personal Training > > (DJ Hakdaddy to my musical peers) > > web site: http://hometown.aol.com/hakman8/myhomepage/index.html > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2000 Report Share Posted August 8, 2000 Dr. Yessis wrote, >Just a few words regarding novel plyometrics. I firmly believe that drop >jumps and box jumps can be of great value in the training of jumpers and >other power athletes. I just wonder if perhaps we're not putting too much >emphasis on box and drop jumps and not on true plyometric jumps. I find >true plyometric jumps much more beneficial for improving muscle resilience >and getting athletes to be more explosive, especially in sports that require >jumping and running. Too often we never fully capitalize on teh basics and >are more impressed with novel exercises. I'm a little confused. I thought that the 'shock' exercises such as drop jumps were true plyometrics as conceived by Verkhoshansky. What are true plyometric jumps? Are we talking bounding or jumping without the shock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2000 Report Share Posted August 8, 2000 I actually believe the drops to be more beneficial regarding increasing elastic storage capacity. Most of the time we will not drop from a great height....their landing capability determines the height. We will also work up to the performance of a specific movement many times including a jump (an approach or block jump - since I deal with volleyball only). The problem I have seen w volleyball players trying to use jumps specifically is that they land squatted and flexed rather than extended - which is what we want in a finishing movement (hitting or blocking). Shock exercises to my knowledge are the drops. Josh Katz 513.474.7465 800.244.2316 978.418.8952 Fax jkatz1@... PREP Performance info@... http://www.prepperformance.com Re: NOVEL PLYOMETRICS Dr. Yessis wrote, >Just a few words regarding novel plyometrics. I firmly believe that drop >jumps and box jumps can be of great value in the training of jumpers and >other power athletes. I just wonder if perhaps we're not putting too much >emphasis on box and drop jumps and not on true plyometric jumps. I find >true plyometric jumps much more beneficial for improving muscle resilience >and getting athletes to be more explosive, especially in sports that require >jumping and running. Too often we never fully capitalize on teh basics and >are more impressed with novel exercises. I'm a little confused. I thought that the 'shock' exercises such as drop jumps were true plyometrics as conceived by Verkhoshansky. What are true plyometric jumps? Are we talking bounding or jumping without the shock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2000 Report Share Posted August 8, 2000 Chad w regard to the use of a mini-tramp is to provide an unstable environment for which the athlete must adjust " proprioceptively " to the landing while tracking a ball. As I mentioned in the progression, upon landing the athlete willl have to adjust his/her passing posture around the ball. The next progression is to go from box to tramp up high and onto the HARD COURT (plyometric effect) where they will (progress to) have to play a ball in the backrow either coming onto a tipped ball (Run through) or in middle back where upon landing they will have to cross and run through the ball to pass to target. We will also use this method at the net to reduce amoritization (ground contact time) for working w the middles on aggressively closing the block after going up to guard the quick. Upon landing on the court the middle will execute a cross and run and meet the outside hitter as both go up for the block. These are drills I have used as a consultant to USA Volleyball, Youth Cuban Teams, and Several Div I and Clubs around the country. Josh Katz 513.474.7465 800.244.2316 978.418.8952 Fax jkatz1@... PREP Performance info@... http://www.prepperformance.com Re: NOVEL PLYOMETRICS I'll drop the debate as to what " true plyometrics " could be defined as. Specifically, drop-rebound jumps, for vertical height and horizontal distance, weighted and from varying heights, are the most advanced plyometric exercises I use. If you mean by " true plyometrics " the lower, not the upper, end of the shock and skill spectrum of plyometric activity, (rope jumping for instance), the majority of athletes I deal with benefit very nicely from " true plyometrics " . It's a matter not which is better but most appropriate. Joe On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 13:01:19 -0700 " Dr. Yessis " <dryessis@...> wrote: > Just a few words regarding novel plyometrics. I firmly believe that > drop > jumps and box jumps can be of great value in the training of jumpers > and > other power athletes. I just wonder if perhaps we're not putting too > much > emphasis on box and drop jumps and not on true plyometric jumps. I > find > true plyometric jumps much more beneficial for improving muscle > resilience > and getting athletes to be more explosive, especially in sports that > require > jumping and running. Too often we never fully capitalize on teh > basics and > are more impressed with novel exercises. > > Dr. Yessis > President Sports Training Inc. > www.dryessis.com > 760-480-0558 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <> > <supertrainingegroups> > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 12:26 PM > Subjec NOVEL PLYOMETRICS > > > > I have a question, Josh . . . how is jumping on a mini-tramp > specific to > > movement on a hard court? As someone who has worked with V-ball > players > for > > about a decade or so, i want to incorporate things that are > specific to > > vball. However, this kind of tactic would be great for adolescent > athletes > > who are beginning a jump training program for the first time. No > sarcasm > > intended, btw . . . just curiosity. > > > > Chad Hackler BS, CSCS > > Director of Personal Training > > (DJ Hakdaddy to my musical peers) > > web site: http://hometown.aol.com/hakman8/myhomepage/index.html > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2000 Report Share Posted August 8, 2000 Josh wrote, >Chad w regard to the use of a mini-tramp is to provide an unstable >environment for which the athlete must adjust " proprioceptively " to the >landing while tracking a ball. As I mentioned in the progression, upon >landing the athlete willl have to adjust his/her passing posture around the >ball. The next progression is to go from box to tramp up high and onto the >HARD COURT (plyometric effect) where they will (progress to) have to play a >ball in the backrow either coming onto a tipped ball (Run through) or in >middle back where upon landing they will have to cross and run through the >ball to pass to target. > >We will also use this method at the net to reduce amoritization (ground >contact time) for working w the middles on aggressively closing the block >after going up to guard the quick. Upon landing on the court the middle will >execute a cross and run and meet the outside hitter as both go up for the >block. These are drills I have used as a consultant to USA Volleyball, Youth >Cuban Teams, and Several Div I and Clubs around the country. If the purpose of the plyometrics is to increase functional strength for volleyball why do you feel a need to mimic the game itself? My understanding is that there is no sport-specific strength increase to be gained by this and in fact from the little I know about volleyball there is no actual game technique being learnt here. For example. >Chad w regard to the use of a mini-tramp is to provide an unstable >environment for which the athlete must adjust " proprioceptively " to the >landing while tracking a ball. In a real game the athlete doesn't land on an unstable surface - they land on the ground. (Okay, I'm assuming this isn't beach volleyball where the argument could be made for an unstable surface.) They also don't have to respond to a ball moving in a rebound movement. If they spike or block the ball they get an opportunity to set-up and pick up the ball in play. In terms of setting up plays, I have to admit I don't understand the language and, once again, know nothing of the sport. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on this type of drill? I get the feeling that I'm missing something! What is your rationale behind mimicing the sports movements in plyo drills - if you don't mind me asking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 Just joined the list so this doesn't tie in with the immediate discussion but adds background.... Hello Just got back from the World Aerobics Champs in Los Angeles. Had a chance to get along to the IDEA convention trade show. Full of every fitness related product available. Even was able to pick up a copy of Facts and Fallacies which will be a useful addition to my library. Heaps of Pilates, Swiss Ball, Core Conditioning machines being marketed. Didn't see anyone there marketing Olympic Lifts or Powerlifting??? There was a NSCA booth but it just contained some pamphlets. Wouldn't it have been great to have some athletes demonstrating Powercleans and Squats and making the point that as one progress's in weight with these exercises that their core strength improves as well. All for the cost of any Olympic Bar and some weights which are conveniently available at most good gyms. Cheers Hamish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 I beg to differ, . Not only do you gain technique by mimicking the game, but you also promote neuromuscular training in the fashion desired in the sport. Sport-specificity does not simply mean training the strength in the appropriate muscle groups, nor simply training the level of endurance required. It means actually recreating the specific contraction pattern neuromuscularly that is required. That's where you make some of the biggest gains. Mike Poling, M.Sc., P.F.L.C., C.K. >From: Hobman <khobman@...> >Reply-supertrainingegroups >supertrainingegroups >Subject: RE: NOVEL PLYOMETRICS >Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 20:53:50 -0600 (CST) > >Josh wrote, > > >Chad w regard to the use of a mini-tramp is to provide an unstable > >environment for which the athlete must adjust " proprioceptively " to the > >landing while tracking a ball. As I mentioned in the progression, upon > >landing the athlete willl have to adjust his/her passing posture around >the > >ball. The next progression is to go from box to tramp up high and onto >the > >HARD COURT (plyometric effect) where they will (progress to) have to >play a > >ball in the backrow either coming onto a tipped ball (Run through) or in > >middle back where upon landing they will have to cross and run through >the > >ball to pass to target. > > > >We will also use this method at the net to reduce amoritization (ground > >contact time) for working w the middles on aggressively closing the block > >after going up to guard the quick. Upon landing on the court the middle >will > >execute a cross and run and meet the outside hitter as both go up for the > >block. These are drills I have used as a consultant to USA Volleyball, >Youth > >Cuban Teams, and Several Div I and Clubs around the country. > >If the purpose of the plyometrics is to increase functional strength for >volleyball why do you feel a need to mimic the game itself? My >understanding is that there is no sport-specific strength increase to be >gained by this and in fact from the little I know about volleyball there is >no actual game technique being learnt here. > >For example. > > >Chad w regard to the use of a mini-tramp is to provide an unstable > >environment for which the athlete must adjust " proprioceptively " to the > >landing while tracking a ball. > >In a real game the athlete doesn't land on an unstable surface - they land >on the ground. (Okay, I'm assuming this isn't beach volleyball where the >argument could be made for an unstable surface.) They also don't have to >respond to a ball moving in a rebound movement. If they spike or block the >ball they get an opportunity to set-up and pick up the ball in play. > >In terms of setting up plays, I have to admit I don't understand the >language and, once again, know nothing of the sport. I'm just wondering >what your thoughts are on this type of drill? I get the feeling that I'm >missing something! > >What is your rationale behind mimicing the sports movements in plyo drills >- if you don't mind me asking? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 Welcome over here, Hamish. I was kinda hoping for something a little bit more juicy from ya!!! It seems that the " proprioceptive pirates " are in full force right now. Maybe someone should offer some insight into just how important core stability is and how balance training meets the need of addressing that vs. olympic/traditional lifting. Comments . . . Chad Hackler BS, CSCS Director of Personal Training (DJ Hakdaddy to my musical peers) web site: http://hometown.aol.com/hakman8/myhomepage/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 This has not been so in my experience. For example, we watched other trainers who used a weighted ball throwing regimen for adult baseball pitchers. There was no significant increase in velocities but there was a two week adjustment period to regain control and location of pitches. The neuromuscular patterning, when returning to a 5inch/9oz ball appeared to be disrupted. As a contrast, we train for shoulder stability by addressing all muscle groups with dummbells and add a rotator cuff segment for each of the muscle-tendon comlexes. If htere has been a tested or reported problem with single leg landings and/or balance, appropriate exercises are assigned. It is rare that we do not see velocity increases without suffering control problems. The mimicking of movements, especially when you are responsible for 10-15 different sports, as a resistance training method does not seem to be either practical or useful. Joe On Wed, 09 Aug 2000 13:14:48 EDT " Mike Poling " <mike_poling@...> wrote: > I beg to differ, . Not only do you gain technique by mimicking > the > game, but you also promote neuromuscular training in the fashion > desired in > the sport. _____________________________________________ Get Your Free Email from http://www.hotml.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 Mike wrote, >I beg to differ, . Not only do you gain technique by mimicking the >game, but you also promote neuromuscular training in the fashion desired in >the sport. Sport-specificity does not simply mean training the strength in >the appropriate muscle groups, nor simply training the level of endurance >required. It means actually recreating the specific contraction pattern >neuromuscularly that is required. That's where you make some of the biggest >gains. > >Mike Poling, M.Sc., P.F.L.C., C.K. I agree there are times when the training movements should mimic the sport. In the case of plyometric training it was my understanding that it there is no advantage to trying to mimic a movement. In fact the depth jump is very specific already to the sport. However, even if mimicry is required what I don't understand is: 1. Jump training and depth jumps work exactly like a jump to block or spike. So why make the athlete focus on responding to a ball or track the ball? IMO it would serve more to distract the athlete from focusing on powerfully rebounding as high as possible. If the purpose of the plyometric drill is to increase CNS involvement and muscle recruitment it would appear to me to be unnecessary. 2. The attempt to mimic is not real. I don't see a volleyball player jumping up in order to gain a stretch reflex to jump up again to spike or block a ball. Nor do I see a requirement to track a ball's path when recovering from a jump, whether to block or spike. Which brings me to my problem. In terms of developing strength this progression seems more like a regression! Which makes me wonder if the purpose behind Josh introducing is more to keep the volleyball player mentally focused on the drills or something like that. I often introduce such variables in my strength and conditioning training for wrestlers not because they make the drill more effective per se, but because they keep the athlete focused on the drills. I thought perhaps this was what I was missing and was wondering if Josh would elaborate on the rationale behind his progression. >>Josh wrote, >> >> >Chad w regard to the use of a mini-tramp is to provide an unstable >> >environment for which the athlete must adjust " proprioceptively " to the >> >landing while tracking a ball. As I mentioned in the progression, upon >> >landing the athlete willl have to adjust his/her passing posture around >>the >> >ball. The next progression is to go from box to tramp up high and onto >>the >> >HARD COURT (plyometric effect) where they will (progress to) have to >>play a >> >ball in the backrow either coming onto a tipped ball (Run through) or in >> >middle back where upon landing they will have to cross and run through >>the >> >ball to pass to target. >> > >> >We will also use this method at the net to reduce amoritization (ground >> >contact time) for working w the middles on aggressively closing the block >> >after going up to guard the quick. Upon landing on the court the middle >>will >> >execute a cross and run and meet the outside hitter as both go up for the >> >block. These are drills I have used as a consultant to USA Volleyball, >>Youth >> >Cuban Teams, and Several Div I and Clubs around the country. >> >>If the purpose of the plyometrics is to increase functional strength for >>volleyball why do you feel a need to mimic the game itself? My >>understanding is that there is no sport-specific strength increase to be >>gained by this and in fact from the little I know about volleyball there is >>no actual game technique being learnt here. >> >>For example. >> >> >Chad w regard to the use of a mini-tramp is to provide an unstable >> >environment for which the athlete must adjust " proprioceptively " to the >> >landing while tracking a ball. >> >>In a real game the athlete doesn't land on an unstable surface - they land >>on the ground. (Okay, I'm assuming this isn't beach volleyball where the >>argument could be made for an unstable surface.) They also don't have to >>respond to a ball moving in a rebound movement. If they spike or block the >>ball they get an opportunity to set-up and pick up the ball in play. >> >>In terms of setting up plays, I have to admit I don't understand the >>language and, once again, know nothing of the sport. I'm just wondering >>what your thoughts are on this type of drill? I get the feeling that I'm >>missing something! >> >>What is your rationale behind mimicing the sports movements in plyo drills >>- if you don't mind me asking? >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 When training a club with very limited practice time for a skill oriented sport like volleyball one has to get as many ball touches as possible (with whatever drills is done) therefore the concern here is with one sport, not 10 or 15. Josh Katz 513.474.7465 800.244.2316 978.418.8952 Fax jkatz1@... PREP Performance info@... http://www.prepperformance.com Re: NOVEL PLYOMETRICS This has not been so in my experience. For example, we watched other trainers who used a weighted ball throwing regimen for adult baseball pitchers. There was no significant increase in velocities but there was a two week adjustment period to regain control and location of pitches. The neuromuscular patterning, when returning to a 5inch/9oz ball appeared to be disrupted. As a contrast, we train for shoulder stability by addressing all muscle groups with dummbells and add a rotator cuff segment for each of the muscle-tendon comlexes. If htere has been a tested or reported problem with single leg landings and/or balance, appropriate exercises are assigned. It is rare that we do not see velocity increases without suffering control problems. The mimicking of movements, especially when you are responsible for 10-15 different sports, as a resistance training method does not seem to be either practical or useful. Joe On Wed, 09 Aug 2000 13:14:48 EDT " Mike Poling " <mike_poling@...> wrote: > I beg to differ, . Not only do you gain technique by mimicking > the > game, but you also promote neuromuscular training in the fashion > desired in > the sport. _____________________________________________ Get Your Free Email from http://www.hotml.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 Josh wrote, >When training a club with very limited practice time for a skill oriented >sport like volleyball one has to get as many ball touches as possible (with >whatever drills is done) therefore the concern here is with one sport, not >10 or 15. This is what I was wondering about Josh - and what I was missing. Makes sense. I was thinking in terms of purely as a strength training drill. You are thinking in terms of limited practise time and a bigger picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 Hello From: <Hakman8@...> > Welcome over here, Hamish. I was kinda hoping for something a little bit > more juicy from ya!!! It seems that the " proprioceptive pirates " are in full > force right now. Maybe someone should offer some insight into just how > important core stability is and how balance training meets the need of > addressing that vs. olympic/traditional lifting. Comments . . . One example was a Swiss Ball which had been cut in half. The guy at the stall asked me to stand on the ball and do things like twist my head, lift limbs and then try it again with my eyes closed. All the standard stuff. There were also Pilates lessons using all sorts of machines. Everything seemed to require purchasing all manner of equipment. Again why not head to the gym or a gymnastics hall to use all the equipment there. Perhaps we can get back to why many gymnasts never use actual weight training. Having spent time on the rings and parallel bars I can see why they need never do chest, shoulder or back exercises and having spent time practicing jumps and leaps can see why they don't need to spend extra time doing leg exercises. Of course all this training requires trunk stabilisation so I don't see a reason to do extra ab work unless there was a problem that needed correction. Cheers Hamish -- Hamish Ferguson BA, Dip SpSt, Cert Coaching Personal Trainer and Cycling Coach ph/fax 64 3 377 2966 and mobile 025 221 1287 email Bikecoach@... website last updated: Feb 2000 http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/8908/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 Harnish: Good point about all the " tools. " However Pilates has a completely separate mat method that is progressive and seriously challenging at the advanced levels and requires NOTHING but a floor. It requires learning a different breathing technique (that keeps the abdominals engaged all the time) that over time allows the athlete to apply the concept to other methods of training. One can do 10:00 or an hour...depending on time frames. It is true core training. Josh Katz 513.474.7465 800.244.2316 978.418.8952 Fax jkatz1@... PREP Performance info@... http://www.prepperformance.com Re: NOVEL PLYOMETRICS Hello From: <Hakman8@...> > Welcome over here, Hamish. I was kinda hoping for something a little bit > more juicy from ya!!! It seems that the " proprioceptive pirates " are in full > force right now. Maybe someone should offer some insight into just how > important core stability is and how balance training meets the need of > addressing that vs. olympic/traditional lifting. Comments . . . One example was a Swiss Ball which had been cut in half. The guy at the stall asked me to stand on the ball and do things like twist my head, lift limbs and then try it again with my eyes closed. All the standard stuff. There were also Pilates lessons using all sorts of machines. Everything seemed to require purchasing all manner of equipment. Again why not head to the gym or a gymnastics hall to use all the equipment there. Perhaps we can get back to why many gymnasts never use actual weight training. Having spent time on the rings and parallel bars I can see why they need never do chest, shoulder or back exercises and having spent time practicing jumps and leaps can see why they don't need to spend extra time doing leg exercises. Of course all this training requires trunk stabilisation so I don't see a reason to do extra ab work unless there was a problem that needed correction. Cheers Hamish -- Hamish Ferguson BA, Dip SpSt, Cert Coaching Personal Trainer and Cycling Coach ph/fax 64 3 377 2966 and mobile 025 221 1287 email Bikecoach@... website last updated: Feb 2000 http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/8908/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 Regarding " true " plyometrics. I apologize for not explaining what I meant by true plyometrics in my response. By this term I mean the jump, regardless of the kind, is executed with maximal speed and force, usually under 0.15sec. All too often I see drop jumps and depth jumps executed with maximal knee flexion (similar to the down position in a classic squat). This execution is not true plyometrics. When I used the term true plyometric jumps, I meant jumps such as double or single leg jumps for height, or height and distance, and other forms of jumps. The key is in the execution, not the type of jump being done. For examples of explosive jumps used for runners, I recommend my book Explosive Running. The jumps are based on the biomechanical analyses of running technique. Note that in running, the foot is in contact with the ground for 0.10sec or less. This is explosive. Dr. Yessis President Sports Training Inc. www.dryessis.com 760-480-0558 Re: NOVEL PLYOMETRICS > Dr. Yessis wrote, > > >Just a few words regarding novel plyometrics. I firmly believe that drop > >jumps and box jumps can be of great value in the training of jumpers and > >other power athletes. I just wonder if perhaps we're not putting too much > >emphasis on box and drop jumps and not on true plyometric jumps. I find > >true plyometric jumps much more beneficial for improving muscle resilience > >and getting athletes to be more explosive, especially in sports that require > >jumping and running. Too often we never fully capitalize on teh basics and > >are more impressed with novel exercises. > > I'm a little confused. I thought that the 'shock' exercises such as drop > jumps were true plyometrics as conceived by Verkhoshansky. What are true > plyometric jumps? Are we talking bounding or jumping without the shock? > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 Regarding the jump training for volleyball. I would not recommend doing jump downs onto a mini tramp and then holding. Not only is this very hard on the knees, but because of the oscillating affect, and the knee to maintain balance, it may open the player up to injury. Equally effective, may be to jump down and hold on a resilient surface such as a wrestling or gymnastics mat. The concept of making exercises sports specific is very valid. But I believe it applies more to strength training. Explosive training is mostly for muscle reaction, not technique execution. Once you develop your muscular ability for explosive contractions, they are then easily incorporated into the total technique. But if you make the strength training specific to the technique, as well as the type of muscular contraction and range of motion in which it functions, you will see immediate and dramatic results. Dr. Yessis President Sports Training Inc. www.dryessis.com 760-480-0558 NOVEL PLYOMETRICS > > > Drop jumps and various standing drills are so widely used as a means of > plyometric training that we often seem to forget that they classically may > be > done in many other ways, such as using the common children's swing that we > all used to play upon in public parks. With the latter, you simply arrange > a > swing near a wall so that you can swing to different heights and strike the > wall with your feet to provide the rebound. For those who have our > textbook, " Supertraining " (Siff & Verkhoshansky 1999), see p275 for > diagrams > of this exercise. > > In this way you do not have to buy a big supply of costly " plyo " boxes - > all > that you need is some rope, wood and something to hang your swing from and > you have a very controllable plyometric training device. With a little > ingenuity, you can even arrange a wooden wall at hand height that will allow > you to shove off with the hands, as well. ( " Supertraining " p275 for > diagrams.) > > Of course, you can make these devices more sophisticated and technical so > that you can carry out accurate biomechanical measurements with them. For > those who have our textbook, " Supertraining " , page 219, you will see a > diagram of a special plyometric bench that my senior engineering students > constructed at the University of the Witwatersrand (South Africa) in 1992. > The same students also constructed various upper and lower body swings with > built in load cells or force plates to measure the forces exerted during > impact. > > Quite recently I came across the following research article that carried out > much the same sort of work that my engineers had been doing. I think that > many of you will find the results interesting. > > ---------------------------------------- > > Fowler NE, Lees A & Reilly T Changes in stature following plyometric > drop-jump and pendulum exercises. Ergonomics 1997 Dec; 40(12):1279-86 > > The aim of this study was to compare the changes in stature following the > performance of plyometric exercises using drop-jumps and a pendulum swing. > Eight male participants aged 21.7 +/- 1.8 years with experience of > plyometric > training gave their informed consent to act as subjects. Participants > undertook two exercise regimens and a 15-min standing test in a random > order. > The exercises entailed the performance of 50 drop-jumps from a height of > 0.28 > m or 50 pendulum rebounds (off a wall). > > Participants were instructed to perform maximal jumps or rebounds using a > 'bounce' style. Measurements of stature were performed after a 20-min period > of standing (pre-exercise), 2-min after exercise (post-exercise) and after a > 20-min standing recovery (recovery). Back pain and muscle soreness were > assessed using an analogue-visual scale, at each of the above times and also > 24 hours and 36 hours after the test. Peak torque during isokinetic knee > extension at 1.04 rad per sec was measured immediately before and after the > exercise bouts, to assess the degree of muscular fatigue. > > Ground/wall reaction force data were recorded using a Kistler force platform > mounted in the floor for drop-jumps and vertically on the rebound wall for > pendulum exercises. Drop-jumps resulted in the greatest change in stature > (-2.71 mm), compared to pendulum exercises (-1.77 mm) and standing > (-0.39mm). > Both exercise regimens resulted in a significant decrease in stature when > compared to the standing condition. Drop-jumps resulted in significantly > greater peak impact forces (p < 0.05) than pendulum exercises (drop-jumps = > 3.2 x body weight, pendulum = 2.6 x body weight). > > The two exercise conditions both invoked a small degree of muscle soreness > but there were no significant differences between either. Both exercise > regimens resulted in a non-significant decrease in peak torque, indicating a > similar degree of muscular fatigue. Based on the lower in height and lower > peak forces, it can be concluded that pendulum exercises pose a lower injury > potential to the lower back than drop-jumps performed from a height of 28 > cm. > > ------------------------------------- > > ***What does this mean for the coach? Well, first of all, it stresses that > there is a very real place for use of the PLYOMETRIC SWING as a safe and > effective form of explosive training. Secondly, it shows that the > *potential* for injury is greater with drop jumps, because of the greater > impact forces exerted on the whole body. > > However, it needs to be pointed out that the body can adapt to such > stresses, > but this potential for injury is a good reason why any drop jumps should be > prescribed carefully and intelligently, especially among novices whose > musculoskeletal system has not adequately adapted to the impulsive loading. > > Regarding the experiment, it should also be pointed out that, if 50 > repetitions are to be done, then it is essential that they be done in > limited > sets of a few repetitions at a time, not like some sort of endurance > exercise. In the USA many coaches tend to prescribe far too many plyometric > repetitions at a time. More is not necessarily better. In the case of > plyometrics, quality is definitely more important than quantity. > > > Dr Mel C Siff > Denver, USA > mcsiff@... > supertraining > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2000 Report Share Posted August 9, 2000 Thanks for the clarification - I see the distinction. My understanding is that even for a sport such as weightlifting or powerlifting the proper way to do them is as you describe. BTW - no need to apologize. I certainly appreciate the input of the many experts on this list! Dr. Yessis wrote, >Regarding " true " plyometrics. I apologize for not explaining what I meant >by true plyometrics in my response. By this term I mean the jump, >regardless of the kind, is executed with maximal speed and force, usually >under 0.15sec. All too often I see drop jumps and depth jumps executed with >maximal knee flexion (similar to the down position in a classic squat). >This execution is not true plyometrics. When I used the term true >plyometric jumps, I meant jumps such as double or single leg jumps for >height, or height and distance, and other forms of jumps. The key is in the >execution, not the type of jump being done. For examples of explosive jumps >used for runners, I recommend my book Explosive Running. The jumps are >based on the biomechanical analyses of running technique. Note that in >running, the foot is in contact with the ground for 0.10sec or less. This >is explosive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2000 Report Share Posted August 10, 2000 Hello From: " jkatz1 " <jkatz1@...> > Harnish: That's Hamish! >Good point about all the " tools. " However Pilates has a completely > separate mat method that is progressive and seriously challenging at the > advanced levels and requires NOTHING but a floor. Like Yoga or Tai Chi? >It requires learning a > different breathing technique (that keeps the abdominals engaged all the > time) that over time allows the athlete to apply the concept to other > methods of training. One can do 10:00 or an hour...depending on time frames. Like many other methods of total body conditioning. Do the abs not have to remain in some state of contracture at all times anyway? > It is true core training. I am sure that Mel is going to chip in on this but there have been numerous debates on other groups over whether Pilates offers anything special that other forms of exercise or training don't provide or often provide better. Seems to me that Yoga or Tai Chi offers a far greater variety of exercises and is packaged as " life enhancement programmes " offers more depth in general conditioning than Pilates. Cheers Hamish -- Hamish Ferguson BA, Dip SpSt, Cert Coaching Personal Trainer and Cycling Coach ph/fax 64 3 377 2966 and mobile 025 221 1287 email Bikecoach@... website last updated: Feb 2000 http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/8908/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2000 Report Share Posted August 10, 2000 On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 20:40:35 -0700 " Dr. Yessis " <dryessis@...> wrote: > Regarding the jump training for volleyball. I would not recommend > doing > jump downs onto a mini tramp and then holding......Equally > effective, > may be to jump down and hold on a resilient surface such as a > wrestling or > gymnastics mat. Changing the absorbing surface to a stable, forgiving one means more repititons before stress and fatigue levels begin to deter performance. More reps should mean more training. Try a 1 " Astroturf mat using closed cell foam asa a backing. You see them ar golf driving ranges.....works great, non slip, lightweight, portable. > The concept of making exercises sports specific is very valid. But I > believe it applies more to strength training. Explosive training is > mostly for muscle reaction, not technique execution. The planning and execution of plyometric training can, and should, be sport specific. For instance, a volleyball player jumps more to the vertical (as opposed to horizontally like a long jumper). A greater mix of drop jumps where the emphasis is on vertical distance versus horizontal distances better recreates the biomechanical action and requirements of the sport. Technique execution, I agree, is best left to the practice arena. _____________________________________________ Get Your Free Email from http://www.hotml.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2000 Report Share Posted August 10, 2000 Josh Katz wrote... Harnish: Good point about all the " tools. " However Pilates has a completely separate mat method that is progressive and seriously challenging at the advanced levels and requires NOTHING but a floor. It requires learning a different breathing technique (that keeps the abdominals engaged all the time) that over time allows the athlete to apply the concept to other methods of training. One can do 10:00 or an hour...depending on time frames. It is true core training. On his web-site I found... Beginning in the fall of 2000 PREP will unveil its Pilates for Volleyball program. The foundation of the technique is keeping the body's center controlled and strong in order to protect the back. Using the abdomen, lower back, and buttocks as an anchor or power center, the rest of the body moves safely through a variety of unique range of motion and resistance exercises. Your blocking will be POSITIVELY affected by following the Pilates program. Click on Pilates for more details. Josh, Could you be more specific as to exactly how Pilates trains volleyball players to " control their center " ? Does Pliates offer a training effect that cannot be gained just as well from doing snatches, clean and jerks, squats and deadlifts and other free-weight and medicine ball exercises? If Pilates does not offer anything unique that cannot be gained from doing these traditional free-weight exercise, how can you justify it in an athlete's overall training program, especially when these lifts train a myriad of other qualities that Pilates doesn't? Burkhardt Strength and Conditioning Coach UC Irvine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2000 Report Share Posted August 10, 2000 Thowing a weighted ball and having it disrupt the regular throwing pattern is explained by the fact that the weighted ball was too heavy. The Russians did extensive studies with heavier and lighter weights and found that the range of weights is not great in order to maintain the same neuromuscular pattern. For example, in the shot put, only a few grams more than the regular throwing weight, was enough to throw off the throwing pattern. (no pun intended) Neuromuscular patterning is extremely important for positive transfer of the training effect. I have worked much in this area and have developed many exercises to duplicate exactly what occurs in specific portions of the total technique. The athletes improve their performance much faster than others who do general strength training. Yessis, Ph.D. Re: NOVEL PLYOMETRICS > This has not been so in my experience. For example, we watched other > trainers who used a weighted ball throwing regimen for adult baseball > pitchers. There was no significant increase in velocities but there was > a two week adjustment period to regain control and location of pitches. > The neuromuscular patterning, when returning to a 5inch/9oz ball > appeared to be disrupted. > > As a contrast, we train for shoulder stability by addressing all muscle > groups with dummbells and add a rotator cuff segment for each of the > muscle-tendon comlexes. If htere has been a tested or reported problem > with single leg landings and/or balance, appropriate exercises are > assigned. It is rare that we do not see velocity increases without > suffering control problems. > > The mimicking of movements, especially when you are responsible for > 10-15 different sports, as a resistance training method does not seem to > be either practical or useful. > > Joe > > On Wed, 09 Aug 2000 13:14:48 EDT > " Mike Poling " <mike_poling@...> wrote: > > I beg to differ, . Not only do you gain technique by mimicking > > the > > game, but you also promote neuromuscular training in the fashion > > desired in > > the sport. > _____________________________________________ > Get Your Free Email from http://www.hotml.com > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2000 Report Share Posted August 10, 2000 Mike Poling wrote: >Sport-specificity does not simply mean training the strength in >the appropriate muscle groups, nor simply training the level of endurance >required. It means actually recreating the specific contraction pattern >neuromuscularly that is required. That's where you make some of the biggest >gains. I am not convinced that this notion is even partly accurate. The evidence that I have reviewed (especially when taken in context with common sense) suggest that overloaded sport movement pattern training may in fact cause a disruption of the refined neuromuscular pattern. It seems more logical to develop the raw athletic capabilities (in a " functional " way) and then continuously apply the body/mind to routine skill execution during this development process. Greg Hart Human Effort Calgary, Alberta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2000 Report Share Posted August 11, 2000 Actually Dr Yessis I agree with you, we don't actually have the athlete hold completely still...they actually come up and extend a bit as they pass a ball back. More of the holding/stablizing is done on a mat and if not available we will have them rebound a bit passing a ball of the hard court (the height in that instance is not significant). As far as the specificity...there is such an emphasis in volleyball on skill development (rightfully so!) such as passing, setting, hitting, blocking, etc. and less (with the exception of hitting) on the hip/footwork that accompanies the movement. This is why every exercise intended to enhance an athletic element of the game (speed, explosiveness, etc.) takes on the pattern of the required hip/footwork patterns. Josh Katz 513.474.7465 800.244.2316 978.418.8952 Fax jkatz1@... PREP Performance info@... http://www.prepperformance.com Re: NOVEL PLYOMETRICS Regarding the jump training for volleyball. I would not recommend doing jump downs onto a mini tramp and then holding. Not only is this very hard on the knees, but because of the oscillating affect, and the knee to maintain balance, it may open the player up to injury. Equally effective, may be to jump down and hold on a resilient surface such as a wrestling or gymnastics mat. The concept of making exercises sports specific is very valid. But I believe it applies more to strength training. Explosive training is mostly for muscle reaction, not technique execution. Once you develop your muscular ability for explosive contractions, they are then easily incorporated into the total technique. But if you make the strength training specific to the technique, as well as the type of muscular contraction and range of motion in which it functions, you will see immediate and dramatic results. Dr. Yessis President Sports Training Inc. www.dryessis.com 760-480-0558 NOVEL PLYOMETRICS > > > Drop jumps and various standing drills are so widely used as a means of > plyometric training that we often seem to forget that they classically may > be > done in many other ways, such as using the common children's swing that we > all used to play upon in public parks. With the latter, you simply arrange > a > swing near a wall so that you can swing to different heights and strike the > wall with your feet to provide the rebound. For those who have our > textbook, " Supertraining " (Siff & Verkhoshansky 1999), see p275 for > diagrams > of this exercise. > > In this way you do not have to buy a big supply of costly " plyo " boxes - > all > that you need is some rope, wood and something to hang your swing from and > you have a very controllable plyometric training device. With a little > ingenuity, you can even arrange a wooden wall at hand height that will allow > you to shove off with the hands, as well. ( " Supertraining " p275 for > diagrams.) > > Of course, you can make these devices more sophisticated and technical so > that you can carry out accurate biomechanical measurements with them. For > those who have our textbook, " Supertraining " , page 219, you will see a > diagram of a special plyometric bench that my senior engineering students > constructed at the University of the Witwatersrand (South Africa) in 1992. > The same students also constructed various upper and lower body swings with > built in load cells or force plates to measure the forces exerted during > impact. > > Quite recently I came across the following research article that carried out > much the same sort of work that my engineers had been doing. I think that > many of you will find the results interesting. > > ---------------------------------------- > > Fowler NE, Lees A & Reilly T Changes in stature following plyometric > drop-jump and pendulum exercises. Ergonomics 1997 Dec; 40(12):1279-86 > > The aim of this study was to compare the changes in stature following the > performance of plyometric exercises using drop-jumps and a pendulum swing. > Eight male participants aged 21.7 +/- 1.8 years with experience of > plyometric > training gave their informed consent to act as subjects. Participants > undertook two exercise regimens and a 15-min standing test in a random > order. > The exercises entailed the performance of 50 drop-jumps from a height of > 0.28 > m or 50 pendulum rebounds (off a wall). > > Participants were instructed to perform maximal jumps or rebounds using a > 'bounce' style. Measurements of stature were performed after a 20-min period > of standing (pre-exercise), 2-min after exercise (post-exercise) and after a > 20-min standing recovery (recovery). Back pain and muscle soreness were > assessed using an analogue-visual scale, at each of the above times and also > 24 hours and 36 hours after the test. Peak torque during isokinetic knee > extension at 1.04 rad per sec was measured immediately before and after the > exercise bouts, to assess the degree of muscular fatigue. > > Ground/wall reaction force data were recorded using a Kistler force platform > mounted in the floor for drop-jumps and vertically on the rebound wall for > pendulum exercises. Drop-jumps resulted in the greatest change in stature > (-2.71 mm), compared to pendulum exercises (-1.77 mm) and standing > (-0.39mm). > Both exercise regimens resulted in a significant decrease in stature when > compared to the standing condition. Drop-jumps resulted in significantly > greater peak impact forces (p < 0.05) than pendulum exercises (drop-jumps = > 3.2 x body weight, pendulum = 2.6 x body weight). > > The two exercise conditions both invoked a small degree of muscle soreness > but there were no significant differences between either. Both exercise > regimens resulted in a non-significant decrease in peak torque, indicating a > similar degree of muscular fatigue. Based on the lower in height and lower > peak forces, it can be concluded that pendulum exercises pose a lower injury > potential to the lower back than drop-jumps performed from a height of 28 > cm. > > ------------------------------------- > > ***What does this mean for the coach? Well, first of all, it stresses that > there is a very real place for use of the PLYOMETRIC SWING as a safe and > effective form of explosive training. Secondly, it shows that the > *potential* for injury is greater with drop jumps, because of the greater > impact forces exerted on the whole body. > > However, it needs to be pointed out that the body can adapt to such > stresses, > but this potential for injury is a good reason why any drop jumps should be > prescribed carefully and intelligently, especially among novices whose > musculoskeletal system has not adequately adapted to the impulsive loading. > > Regarding the experiment, it should also be pointed out that, if 50 > repetitions are to be done, then it is essential that they be done in > limited > sets of a few repetitions at a time, not like some sort of endurance > exercise. In the USA many coaches tend to prescribe far too many plyometric > repetitions at a time. More is not necessarily better. In the case of > plyometrics, quality is definitely more important than quantity. > > > Dr Mel C Siff > Denver, USA > mcsiff@... > supertraining > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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