Guest guest Posted August 10, 2000 Report Share Posted August 10, 2000 On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:50:34 EDT Supertraining@... wrote: > Let's hear your comments on your preferred way of bench pressing... I prefer the lift direction, arc and angle to be the one that the trainee determines is his " way " of benching. J hook, vertical, low or high chest setdown......within obvious parameters pf safety and biomechanics. _____________________________________________ Get Your Free Email from http://www.hotml.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2000 Report Share Posted August 10, 2000 Personally I think bench shirts have changed the game.Louie advocates the straight line technique because it is effective and also safe. The feeling when doing this is that you are pushing it away, but you don't actually push it away. Years ago the more prevalent technique was to use a J pattern, swinging the elbows to 90 degrees and bringing it back over the eyes. Mike Mac is a good example of just how effective this technique can be, but it is more dangerous. With the shirts the vertical technique works as well and is much safer. As for the sticking point, I think the best training is to accellerate the bar and take it through your weak point. But I tend to agree - if the bar stops very rarely will the lift be made. But I've yet to see a good lifter who isn't determined enough to at least try! Mel Siff wrote: >This is a lot of disagreement on the correct way to bench press efficiently. >Does one press the bar > >1. directly upwards in a vertical line, >2. somewhat downwards away from the face >3. in a backward arc over the head ? > >Some years ago, Dr Tom McLaughlin did a great deal of biomechanical research >into the bench press and examined this issue (see his book " Bench Press More >Now " ). In doing so, he identified at least three different patterns of >action for the " novice " , the " light expert " and the " heavy expert " . He >specifically commented that seldom does any lifter who stops in the sticking >point manage to successfully complete the lift, so that efforts spent to >battle through this point simply waste energy. > >Let's hear your comments on your preferred way of bench pressing and later I >will share Dr McLaughlin's ideas on the subject with you. In particular, >Dave Tate from Westside Barbell might like to share his extensive experience >on this topic with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2000 Report Share Posted August 11, 2000 In a message dated 08/10/2000 11:03:16 PM Central Daylight Time, joealden@... writes: > Let's hear your comments on your preferred way of bench pressing... > I prefer the straight line method. I went from a " j " type 350 to a 385 straight type. My shoulder doesn't bother me at all. It used to with the wide style. Keep in mind my bench press prowess leaves much to be desired. Randy B Friendswood, Tx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2000 Report Share Posted August 11, 2000 Since the days in which McLaughlin analyzed the bench press, this lift has been corrupted and bastardized via the bench shirt. Essentially, the shirt does the lifting for you and whatever we've learned from biomechanical and exercise physiological research (namely that the muscles involved in executing the lift fire in a specific sequence where the bar will follow a " J " pattern) has become absolete since most powerlifters indeed use the shirt. There has been no research whatsoever on the safety of one bench style over the other, nor has there been any research conducted on the safety of the bench shirt. So any suggestions that one style of benching is safer than the other and that the bench shirt reduces injury is pure conjecture and should not become part of an erudite discussion of the topic. As far as the bench shirt as a safety device is concerned, this concept enters the realm of pure nonsense and complete ignorance. For one, the joint actions occurring during the bench press are completely natural and when one follows basic principles of progressive resistance training, lifting progressively heavier weights can be done safely. Saying that benching is dangerous is like saying walking is dangerous. Well, if you've ever seen or talked to a lifter whose bench shirt tore without any spotters present, you'll quickly learn that benching can be dangerous AND that the bench shirt can CAUSE injury. Back to technique. As many of you know, when you bench without a bench shirt, the sticking point can be low (coming off the chest or during the first third of the ROM) or high (close to lockout). But not everybody experiences the sticking point in the same area. With the bench shirt, however, since it provides an explosive drive off of the chest, the sticking point will almost always occur during lockout. Naturally, the approach to solving this problem changes over what a shirtless bencher would do, but more importantly, the group of competitors who have the low sticking point problem have a decided and unfair advantage over those who have a lockout problem (unless we allow the lockout problem group to wear knee wraps around their elbows; that would even things out). In the end, the bench shirt does not allow for any sort of educated discussion about benching (exercise physiologists and biomechanists have yet to squeeze subjects into bench shirts to ascertain body function during this lift) and denigrates the competitive aspect of powerlifting. Dan Wagman, Ph.D., C.S.C.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2000 Report Share Posted August 11, 2000 Very interesting topic as I am currently trying to teach myself the arch - straight line technique. I have traditionally used a J curve with a flat back. I am desparately trying to increase my bench, and being a new Westside follower, I thought that the new technique might help. I have increased my tricep strength as well. My main concern is whether this technique will help a raw lifter. I don't use a bench shirt and I wonder if I will gain anything from the arch and modified path of the bar? I anxiously await the ideas from Dr. McLaughlin and Dave Tate. Take Care, -Philip S. Feairheller West Chester, PA > BENCH PRESS STYLE > > > This is a lot of disagreement on the correct way to bench > press efficiently. > Does one press the bar > > 1. directly upwards in a vertical line, > 2. somewhat downwards away from the face > 3. in a backward arc over the head ? > > Some years ago, Dr Tom McLaughlin did a great deal of > biomechanical research > into the bench press and examined this issue (see his book > " Bench Press More > Now " ). In doing so, he identified at least three different > patterns of > action for the " novice " , the " light expert " and the " heavy > expert " . He > specifically commented that seldom does any lifter who stops > in the sticking > point manage to successfully complete the lift, so that > efforts spent to > battle through this point simply waste energy. > > Let's hear your comments on your preferred way of bench > pressing and later I > will share Dr McLaughlin's ideas on the subject with you. > In particular, > Dave Tate from Westside Barbell might like to share his > extensive experience > on this topic with us. > > Mel Siff > > Dr Mel C Siff > Denver, USA > mcsiff@... > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------<e|- > Save up to $300 on your auto insurance with Esurance. Get a > free quote. > 1/8196/11/_/_/_/965962598/ > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------|e>- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2000 Report Share Posted August 11, 2000 On 10 Aug 00, at 22:50, Supertraining@... wrote: > This is a lot of disagreement on the correct way to bench press > efficiently. Does one press the bar > > 1. directly upwards in a vertical line, > 2. somewhat downwards away from the face > 3. in a backward arc over the head ? > > Some years ago, Dr Tom McLaughlin did a great deal of biomechanical > research into the bench press and examined this issue (see his book > " Bench Press More Now " ). In doing so, he identified at least three > different patterns of action for the " novice " , the " light expert " and > the " heavy expert " . He specifically commented that seldom does any > lifter who stops in the sticking point manage to successfully complete > the lift, so that efforts spent to battle through this point simply > waste energy. . . . . > > Mel Siff > > Dr Mel C Siff > I would think that the energy spent battling through this spot is energy spent training this spot. There is a large population that believes training the bench press in a restricted ROM will improve the ability to lift heavier weights through this ROM.> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------<e > |- Save up to $300 on your auto insurance with Esurance. Get a free > quote. 1/8196/11/_/_/_/965962598/ > --------------------------------------------------------------------|e > >- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2000 Report Share Posted August 11, 2000 Dan wrote, > >There has been no research whatsoever on the safety of one bench style over >the other, nor has there been any research conducted on the safety of the >bench shirt. So any suggestions that one style of benching is safer than the >other and that the bench shirt reduces injury is pure conjecture and should >not become part of an erudite discussion of the topic. > >As far as the bench shirt as a safety device is concerned, this concept >enters the realm of pure nonsense and complete ignorance. For one, the joint >actions occurring during the bench press are completely natural and when one >follows basic principles of progressive resistance training, lifting >progressively heavier weights can be done safely. Saying that benching is >dangerous is like saying walking is dangerous. Well, if you've ever seen or >talked to a lifter whose bench shirt tore without any spotters present, >you'll quickly learn that benching can be dangerous AND that the bench shirt >can CAUSE injury. Several lifters who have suffered major pec tears (including Dave Tate) have been able to come back and bench more by switching styles. has made the observation, which is purely empirical, that you often hear of pec tears but you rarely hear of triceps tears. So they have shifted to the style of vertical straight line benching as I mentioned previously. Here is something. Whether I like them or Dan likes them bench shirts are allowed and give a lifter an advantage. Hence, most competitive powerlifters use them. Lifters can lift more with them and the way to lift more with them is to turn into a triceps bencher, since the you don't fail off the chest. In turn it would appear that triceps style benchers have less injuries than those who use the pecs predominantly. I agree benching max weights can be dangerous. As for the idea that a lifters bench shirt tore without spotters present - I doubt you'll find too many saying this. For one thing its impossible to get into a shirt without help and normally anyone who is willing to take 10 minutes to help you into a shirt is willing to spot. Second, benching with a shirt is reserved for maximal attempts. Anyone who tries maximal attempts in the bench without a spotter is asking for trouble, bench shirt or not. Third, if a lifter attempts maximal weights without a spotter, with a shirt, I would argue it is not having a spotter that causes injury, even when the shirt splits. As far as I know competitive lifters are welcome to Supertraining, including powerlifters. Dan is a tremendous powerlifter in his own right, and has a great bench without using a shirt. However, for the rest of us who use them conjecture that they may prevent injury does have its place until a study is done. Personally, I have to agree with Dan and would prefer to see them banned from lifting. Maybe because I get only a measly 25 lbs or so from mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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