Re: New member/Advice?

[Guest guest]

steevo009 wrote:

>

> My main points of contention about the blends I've made so far:

> individual notes don't stand out very much; the overall blends smell

> pretty vegetal (raw), especially for the first hour after spraying;

Aging makes a big difference in a blend. To really evaluate what a blend

smells like, you have to let it sit for at least a couple weeks, IMO,

and after a couple months it should have a nice polished smoothness.. at

least, this has been my experience.

It's also possible that your ingredients are the cause. Do they smell

vegetal as single notes? Do you have oils from multiple suppliers, and

do they all exhibit this characteristic?

> the " presence " of the blends seems or smells dull compared to many

> commercial fragrances, which have much sharper clarity and

> immediacy; and they stay pretty close to the skin.

This is generally going to be true of natural perfumes when compared to

synthetic ones. Aldehydes may be responsible; I'm not really sure.

I made a post a while back asking what the commercial synth perfumers do

to get the massive sillage and staying power typical of modern perfumes,

but I never saw it. I'm not sure if it was axed by a mod for being

unrelated to natural perfumery specifically, or if there was some glitch.

> Top: bergamot 25, lemon 25, petitgrain 5, anise 7, ginger 15,

> juniper berry 15

> Heart: rose 10, jasmine 8, pepper 12, clove 12, nutmeg 12, ylang

> ylang 3, tuberose 5

> Base: musk 5, tobacco 3, cedar Himalaya 10, sandalwood 20, vanilla

> 5, benzoin 5, balsam Peru 10

>

> One reason why that didn't come off as well as I'd hoped may be

> because the sandalwood and jasmine were about 10% solutions in

> jojoba oil, and I read later that jojoba oil doesn't mix well with

> alcohol, maybe even with the EOs. I like all the above notes, but

> all I REALLY noticed was the woody-vanilla-incensey base, which was

> smooth and very nice--even the citrus topnotes were hardly

> perceptible! Maybe I should reduce the number of oils I mix, and

> pump up, say, the number of drops for only one, two or three oils I

> really want to accentuate.

As far as I know, EOs diluted in jojoba should transfer into alcohol as

long as they're sufficiently well mixed (shake it good!), but I avoid

the issue by using undiluted oils when possible, or diluting them in

alcohol myself (in the case of very strong or expensive oils).

I'm not sure why you're primarily smelling the base in that blend; it

might be a little light on topnotes but they should still be present. I

have found that citrus tends to fade as a blend ages, though, and some

bases (especially sandalwood) tend to take over. This is something you

have to learn to compensate for from experience, I suspect.

OTOH, beginner guides to DIY perfume often suggest a ratio of 1:2:3 for

base, middle and top notes, and I have seen old perfume recipes that

were even more top-heavy! I tend to keep my blends more or less linear

in proportion, or even base-heavy, so maybe they know something I don't...

Some people have noted that EOs, being made of numerous fragrant

chemicals, are far more complex than the individual chemicals used by

commercial perfumers, and therefore natural perfumers need to resist the

urge to use too many oils lest the resulting blend smell dull and

muddied. I don't necessarily agree. I've tried simplifying the blend

I've been working on for the last couple of years, and each time I find

that oversimplification is just that, and not necessarily an improvement.

Of course, if you HAVE oils that you want to accentuate, it only makes

sense to use greater proportions of them, or to use complimentary oils

to reinforce them.

-Xplo

[Guest guest]

Big welcome to the group, Steevo!

You are more than welcome to add yourself to the member's database

(and anyone else who haven't done that yet - it would be great if you

tell us a bit about yourself! It's not mandatory, but it would be nice

to know about each other just a little bit more than the username; The

fields are not all mandatory - fill in what you want to share with

us). Simply click on " Database " and go to the " Natural Perfumery

Member Database " and add a record about yourself.

>I'm also pretty knowledgeable about many

> commercial and niche fragrances for men, and about individual notes

> etc.

This is great! The best way to learn about the art of perfumery is by

knowing and smelling what others have done before us. I am sure this

will be helpful to you - and also we will value you sharing your

knowledge here as well.

> I'm realizing that one main reason why my blends haven't been too

> distinctive is that I've made them using pretty much the same amount

> of drops for several oils. Here's one 1-oz blend:

You nailed it right on the head. There needs to be some distinct

difference between perfumes to make them smell different. Ratio alone

is not enough - in natural perfumery, anyways.

> Top: bergamot 25, lemon 25, petitgrain 5, anise 7, ginger 15,

> juniper berry 15

> Heart: rose 10, jasmine 8, pepper 12, clove 12, nutmeg 12, ylang

> ylang 3, tuberose 5

> Base: musk 5, tobacco 3, cedar Himalaya 10, sandalwood 20, vanilla

> 5, benzoin 5, balsam Peru 10

By looking at your formula, there are a few things that may cause a

problem:

First - and very important - are the ratios you have used. You used

very small quantities of florals, and they were diluted. However, you

used very high concentration of the spice oils.

Spice oils are accessory notes - they are strong and powerful and will

change the nature of the blend completely even with as much as one

drop. 7 drops of anise, 12 of nutmeg, 15 ginger, 12 pepper and 12

cloves are a lot more than you need to spice up your blend.

If you want to improve this specific combination, I recommend you

start again, and re-write your formula, and use much lesser quantities

of everything, to make it simple for you to correct by adding.

For instance: start with something like:

Top: bergamot 10, lemon 10, petitgrain 5, anise 2-4, ginger 2-4,

juniper berry 8, pepper 2, nutmeg 2-4 (nutmeg and pepper essential

oils are top notes; the absolute are heart notes)

Heart: rose 10, jasmine 8, clove 1-2, ylang

ylang 3, tuberose 5

Base: musk 5 (I am not sure which musk do you refer to? natural musk

is rare and illegal for the most part; do you mean ambrette seed?),

tobacco 3, cedar Himalaya 10, sandalwood 20, vanilla

5, benzoin 5, balsam Peru 10

Another way to work your way to learning more about blending with

these ingredients are start by making horizontal accords (of the same

level of volatility - i.e. all top notes, all heart notes, or all base

notes); you will than see how the spice oils interact with the citrus

at the top, for example, or how the florals interact with the spicy

cloves, and how the cedar and tobacco smell next to peru balsam; Once

you have explored this - start experimenting with vertical accords -

i.e. accords of base, heart and top notes - so you can see how they

interact with one another. For instance: tobacco-tuberose-anise;

Cedar-jasmine-lemon; Peru-cloves-juniper, etc. This will be a whole

course of perfumery for you right there, with just the essences you

have used in this particular formula.

Last tip to remember - with natural ingredients only, less is more.

You may be surprised to find that if you mix only half or third of the

ingredients you listed in the formula above, you will end up with a

perfume far more distinct than what you have accomplished with so many

essences. When using too many essences - the result tends to get

muddy, non distinct and disharmonious. In my experience this is prone

to happen especially when mixing a lot of citrus with a lot of spice

and some heavey base notes. Strangely, the more citrus you will add

the less citrus you smell when there are so many dark notes around

them (spice and resins, etc.). I think this is why you haven't smelled

the citruses in your blend.

Best,

--

Ayala Sender

Perfumer & Owner

Ayala Moriel Parfums

http://www.AyalaMoriel.com E-mail: Ayala@...

Signature Perfumes ~ Perfumed Jewelery ~ Fragrance Consultant On-Line

[Guest guest]

Xplo, thanks for taking the time to give me excellent feedback! I

can see I've got a lot more experimenting to do...good thing it's so

fun!

> Aging makes a big difference in a blend. To really evaluate what a

blend smells like, you have to let it sit for at least a couple

weeks, IMO, and after a couple months it should have a nice polished

smoothness..

I think you're right about this...last night, I sprayed on an EDP I

made probably 4 or 5 months ago, and it's much smoother (and

pleasant) than it was when I first tried it...I was nicely

surprised! I was like, " Hey, I can actually wear this! "

> It's also possible that your ingredients are the cause. Do they

smell vegetal as single notes? Do you have oils from multiple

suppliers, and do they all exhibit this characteristic?

I think my EOs are good; they didn't really smell vegetal when first

blending; I've gotten a lot from Aromaland in Santa Fe (except for

the more expensive ones!) and Nature's Gift in Tennessee, and I find

the quality really good; I think I just need more experience with

blending, mainly working out better formulas and blending fewer

notes. And going through the archives here will help. Thanks again

for your help!

[Guest guest]

" Ayala Sender " <ayala@q...> wrote:

> Big welcome to the group, Steevo! You are more than welcome to

add yourself to the member's database

Thanks, Ayala, for your welcome and overwhelming help in a single

post! From your post and that of Xplo's, I see I need to do a lot

of work to develop formulating and blending talent, but obviously

it's really fun work.

> By looking at your formula, there are a few things that may cause a

problem: First - and very important - are the ratios you have used.

You used very small quantities of florals, and they were diluted.

However, you used very high concentration of the spice oils. Spice

oils are accessory notes - they are strong and powerful and will

change the nature of the blend completely even with as much as one

drop.

I'm an absolute spice nut! One goal is to create a really good

manly clove EDP, perhaps a bit tricky due to toxicity if I use too

much clove. But your advice here is really logical, how less can be

more in many cases. I've also got some rose absolute (and tuberose)

on the way and want to do a manly rose blend; I do love floral

accents too.

> Base: musk 5 (I am not sure which musk do you refer to? natural

musk is rare and illegal for the most part; do you mean ambrette

seed?)

Well, that's where I cheated; I didn't really know about ambrette,

so I went synthetic there. I love Kiehl's Original Musk Oil on its

own, so I used some drops of that, even though THAT is a blend of

sorts. I don't know if a synthetic oil blends well with EOs, so

maybe that's just one reason why the whole blend was kind of muddy.

By the way, I don't smell the musk in it!

> Strangely, the more citrus you will add the less citrus you smell

when there are so many dark notes around them (spice and resins,

etc.). I think this is why you haven't smelled the citruses in your

blend.

Good advice! And I think again it's 'cause I've added too many EOs

of relatively the same amounts, so consequently, nothing stands out

too much. And I guess in a case like that, the citrus doesn't stand

out so much as bind with, or modify, the other notes. Partly to

that end, I've also ordered some Neroli, which I understand is

mainly a middle/base note (though one source says it can be a top,

heart or base note), so hopefully that will help it stand out more,

as long as I don't crowd it out with too many other loud notes and

find a suitable accord for it. And I'll be searching the archives

for more helpful info! Steve

[Guest guest]

My main points of contention about the blends I've made so far:

individual notes don't stand out very much; the overall blends smell

pretty vegetal (raw), especially for the first hours...

Also very new, following this thread was particularly interesting to

me. My problem is dryout time...

HOW LONG SHOULD A NATURAL PERFUME GENERALLY LAST?

Having played with a number of fixatives, on my skin they last at best

an hour! Help!

Janet

[Guest guest]

Janet wrote:

> HOW LONG SHOULD A NATURAL PERFUME GENERALLY LAST?

> Having played with a number of fixatives, on my skin they last at best

> an hour! Help!

What fixatives are you playing with? I'm going to assume you're using

alcohol as a carrier.

Glycerine will provide some fixation.. although I'm not sure that it's

especially effective. (It is good for the skin, though.) Water is also

supposed to slow evaporation, but you can only add a little before the

mixture turns cloudy. I wouldn't even bother, personally. I've always

suspected it's only used commercially to save alcohol.

Some people suggest pre-fixing alcohol by dissolving frankincense and/or

benzoin resin in it, or soaking sandalwood chips in it; check the

archives for more on this. I've never tried this, because I don't want

to blend with prescented alcohol. Others suggest that alcohol can be

pre-fixed by adding glycerine and allowing the mixture to age, which I

haven't tried yet but would like to someday.

Base notes will generally provide fixation.. or, at the very least, they

themselves will stick around for a while. You'll definitely need to use

enough to affect the scent of your blend (of course, your blends already

have base notes in them, right?), and fixation should slowly develop as

the blend ages over a period of months.

Also, what are you trying to fix? Top notes are fleeting by nature and

nothing can hold them down for very long.

Finally.. is your blend strong enough? A perfume concentration will last

longer than a toilette. (I know that I have a tendency to overdilute.)

In general, you shouldn't expect natural perfumes to have the insane

lasting power of commercial synth perfumes. However, I have found that

some bases, once well-aged, will be perceptible for several hours;

sandalwood and labdanum come to mind.

-Xplo

[Guest guest]

> > HOW LONG SHOULD A NATURAL PERFUME GENERALLY LAST?

Actually, I started using jojoba as a carrier (thinking it would slow

evaporation) in a 50/50 ratio. Perfume saturation, right? My base-note

fixatives have included various combinations of tolu balsam, bezoid,

labdanum, cedarwood, vetiver, oakmoss, vanilla. Even base blends are

gone in an hour for me... top notes, 15 min max! Is it my skin? Thnx

for your help, -Xplo. I'm frustrated!

Janet

[Guest guest]

At 03:38 PM 1/9/2006, you wrote:

>Actually, I started using jojoba as a carrier (thinking it would slow

>evaporation) in a 50/50 ratio. Perfume saturation, right? My base-note

>fixatives have included various combinations of tolu balsam, bezoid,

>labdanum, cedarwood, vetiver, oakmoss, vanilla. Even base blends are

>gone in an hour for me... top notes, 15 min max! Is it my skin? Thnx

>for your help, -Xplo. I'm frustrated!

>Janet

Hi Janet.

My skin tends to vaporize off perfume very quickly, also. Have you had

others test your perfumes? Have you asked others if they still detect them

on you? You nose may have become adjusted to the scent and not perceive it,

but it's there. You're using some serious base notes, and so I doubt

they're " gone " .

Anya

http://.com

The premier site on the Web to discover the beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Join to study natural perfumery

[Guest guest]

At 03:38 PM 1/9/2006, you wrote:

>Actually, I started using jojoba as a carrier (thinking it would slow

>evaporation) in a 50/50 ratio. Perfume saturation, right? My base-note

>fixatives have included various combinations of tolu balsam, bezoid,

>labdanum, cedarwood, vetiver, oakmoss, vanilla. Even base blends are

>gone in an hour for me... top notes, 15 min max! Is it my skin? Thnx

>for your help, -Xplo. I'm frustrated!

>Janet

Hi Janet.

My skin tends to vaporize off perfume very quickly, also. Have you had

others test your perfumes? Have you asked others if they still detect them

on you? You nose may have become adjusted to the scent and not perceive it,

but it's there. You're using some serious base notes, and so I doubt

they're " gone " .

Anya

http://.com

The premier site on the Web to discover the beauty of Natural Perfume

/

Join to study natural perfumery

[Guest guest]

Short Dryout Times.

Thanks, Anya. Perhaps, you're right and the problem is a combination

of my skin and nose and not the oils at all.

What are the best carriers for this problem? Should I stick with oil

or try alcohol?

Janet

[Guest guest]

Janet wrote:

>Short Dryout Times.

>Thanks, Anya. Perhaps, you're right and the problem is a combination

>of my skin and nose and not the oils at all.

>What are the best carriers for this problem? Should I stick with oil

>or try alcohol?

>Janet

>

>

>

Janet

I've had good success using a creme, based on beeswax with jojoba for

people who's skin quickly loses their perfume. You need a solid base,

and often a higher percentage of top notes eg. 40%-20%-40%

Base-Mid-Top. This of course depends on the oils chosen also and any

dilutions used. I use up to 20% perfume, with twice the amount of

jojoba as beeswax, more if too solid, which will dilute your perfume

percentage, so do work this ratio out first before making your final

product remembering to subtract the amount of perfume concentrate from

your jojoba quantity.

Do hope you find a usable solution.

Dawn