Re: Testosterone Cream aromatization

[Guest guest]

I have read that there is more conversion of T to DHT in transdermal delevery

systems.

Think I read it at cengenics.

SRM

[i've heard this also, and it makes some sense because DHT is involved in the

development of outward sexual characteristics, especially in males, including

the development of pubic hair from the skin. (I have personally noticed that

my normally very black and coarse chest hair becomes finer and lighter in

color when I take the 5-alpha reductase enzyme inhibitor finasteride, which

inhibits the conversion of T to DHT. I would suppose the same is true for

other areas of pubic hair on my body, though I don't generally inspect those

other hairs closely. :-)

However the question here is about aromatization which is the conversion of T

to estrogen by the aromatase enzyme - not the conversion of T to DHT by the 5-

alpha reductase enzyme. I have never heard that aromatase is present in high

concentration in skin tissue, which is not to say that it isn't.

-gts]

[Guest guest]

I am taking 1% androgel....for 4 months.. two questions

It seems like my breasts are slightly tender and a little larger. I am a big

guy and it might be the slight weight gain I have had.

I have heard and seem to have a slight decrease in the firmness in my penis in

the last month. Is there anything I can take that would help? Also my doctor

is now giving me Hyzaar 100/25mg.

[Yes, this sounds like excess aromatization, (too much estrogen), and possibly

the onset of gynecomastia (growth of breast tissue in men). Excessive

levels of testosterone may also be part of the problem. I would suggest you

get a blood test for estrogen as well as testosterone. If estrogen is high

then ask your doc about a script for Arimidex (I'd suggest Viagra for the

other, but it might be a bad idea in combination with Hyzaar). Of course there

are natural treatments as well, but I suggest you get with your doc first

given that you're already showing symptoms.

From what I know of Hyzaar, it is probably not the cause of your problems. In

fact I would guess it would be helping them rather than hurting them. High

blood pressure can be a cause of erectile dysfunction, and one should be

careful about blood pressure when taking testosterone anyway -- it tends to

raise blood pressure. -gts]

[Guest guest]

I have a question here. Would finasteride have any negative effects on the

action of testosterone including the anabolic action?

Srm

[DHT is anbaolic, but then so is testosterone, and testosterone is the more

anabolic of the two. This would mean that DHT inhibitors like finasteride

might actually *increase* anabolism. In fact I seem to recall a study in which

finasteride (Proscar, Propecia) increased testosterone levels slightly. But

beware... any increased anabolic effects from finasteride would be very

slight -- the other less positive side-effects of finasteride are far more

important. Some significant percentage of men experience reduced libido from

finasteride. I think that percentage is small, in the single digits according

to most of the literature I've seen, but I've also seen an anectodal report

from at least one health professional here that the percentage of men

experiencing this side-effect might be quite large. -gts]

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/12/03 3:46:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,

srmccay@... writes:

<< I think that percentage is small, in the single digits according

to most of the literature I've seen, but I've also seen an anectodal report

from at least one health professional here that the percentage of men

experiencing this side-effect might be quite large. -gts]

>>

It is true that reports of sexual side effects vary from single digit per

cents to higher.

Data is funky though sometimes. You read somewhere where 10 per cent of men

experience sexual problems on finasteride and then you read somewhere else

that 35-45 per cent of men in the age group taking finestateride have sexual

problems. You could make a case that the finesteride users have fewer sexual

problems.

Winter

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/12/03 3:46:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,

srmccay@... writes:

<< I think that percentage is small, in the single digits according

to most of the literature I've seen, but I've also seen an anectodal report

from at least one health professional here that the percentage of men

experiencing this side-effect might be quite large. -gts]

>>

It is true that reports of sexual side effects vary from single digit per

cents to higher.

Data is funky though sometimes. You read somewhere where 10 per cent of men

experience sexual problems on finasteride and then you read somewhere else

that 35-45 per cent of men in the age group taking finestateride have sexual

problems. You could make a case that the finesteride users have fewer sexual

problems.

Winter

[Guest guest]

Gordon:

I wonder if the level of aromatization would be greater in a man applying it

to a fatty layer of skin (ie abdomen). If aromatase enzyme is higher in men

with higher bodyfat and it is held within fatty tissue, then coversion in

these men would be higher. However, I agree that no matter the delivery,

the aromatization still would occur once it reachs the tissue. Any

thoughts?

[That's an excellent point! Yes, there is a known association between excess

abdominal fat and excess aromatization. I had forgotten about that. And, as

you suggest, that association might be the basis for a belief that T creams

cause more aromatization than other methods of delivery, perhaps even in non-

obese individuals who apply it to areas of low body fat. At least it's a

reasonable hypothesis worth testing by some researcher somewhere who might

have some extra grant money laying around.

Jacqui, Dave's idea here is probably where your friend got the notion that T

creams cause greater aromatization. Whether or not it's true is probably

anyone's quess. Perhaps when I get a chance I'll try to find some published

research on the subject. -gts]

Testosterone Cream aromatization

>Hi Gordon

>I have recently been told that men using transdermal testosterone cream is

a

>bad idea due to testosterone aromatising in the subcutaneous layer of skin.

>Have you heard of this and do you know what other way other than a pellet

>would be an effective method of delivering testosterone for males?

>Thanks

>Jacqui M

>

>[Hi Jacqui. Aromatization is potentially a problem for men no matter how

the

>testosterone is delivered, but I've never heard that the problem is worse

with

>creams. I would expect a transdermal pellet to suffer from the same problem

if

>it exists. The traditional means for supplemententing testosterone is via

>intramuscuular (IM) injections of oil-based testosterone esters (e.g.,

>testosterone cypionate). Aromatization can be inhibited with anastrozole

>(Arimidex) -gts].

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gordon:

I wonder if the level of aromatization would be greater in a man applying it

to a fatty layer of skin (ie abdomen). If aromatase enzyme is higher in men

with higher bodyfat and it is held within fatty tissue, then coversion in

these men would be higher. However, I agree that no matter the delivery,

the aromatization still would occur once it reachs the tissue. Any

thoughts?

[That's an excellent point! Yes, there is a known association between excess

abdominal fat and excess aromatization. I had forgotten about that. And, as

you suggest, that association might be the basis for a belief that T creams

cause more aromatization than other methods of delivery, perhaps even in non-

obese individuals who apply it to areas of low body fat. At least it's a

reasonable hypothesis worth testing by some researcher somewhere who might

have some extra grant money laying around.

Jacqui, Dave's idea here is probably where your friend got the notion that T

creams cause greater aromatization. Whether or not it's true is probably

anyone's quess. Perhaps when I get a chance I'll try to find some published

research on the subject. -gts]

Testosterone Cream aromatization

>Hi Gordon

>I have recently been told that men using transdermal testosterone cream is

a

>bad idea due to testosterone aromatising in the subcutaneous layer of skin.

>Have you heard of this and do you know what other way other than a pellet

>would be an effective method of delivering testosterone for males?

>Thanks

>Jacqui M

>

>[Hi Jacqui. Aromatization is potentially a problem for men no matter how

the

>testosterone is delivered, but I've never heard that the problem is worse

with

>creams. I would expect a transdermal pellet to suffer from the same problem

if

>it exists. The traditional means for supplemententing testosterone is via

>intramuscuular (IM) injections of oil-based testosterone esters (e.g.,

>testosterone cypionate). Aromatization can be inhibited with anastrozole

>(Arimidex) -gts].

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Can estradiol be lowered too much with Arimidex?

[i would think so. Men need a certain level of estrogens for healthy bones

and strong mind. -gts]