Re: DHT not very anabolic after all

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-04-21 04:02:04 EDT, you write:

<< The reduction of DHT

by finasteride should have only a very slight negative effect on muscle

gains, if any, and any side-effects are easily reversible.

>>

Even though dht at the scalp is reduced, I believe that serum testos is

raised aproximately 15% by finasteride so some men have reported gains from

it.

Winter

[Guest guest]

Gordon,

“I learned today that dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is not very effective

as an anabolic after all. Apparently this is so because DHT is converted

to androstanediol (not androstenediol) in muscle tissue...........“

“So then Doc it is not always true that highly androgenic substances

are also anabolic. DHT is highly androgenic in skin and prostate but not

very anabolic in muscle tissue.â€

Just because DHT is converted to androstanediol in muscle cells, does

not necessarily mean it is not anabolic. How much DHT becomes

receptor bound before being metabolized, how long is the DHT

receptor bound half-life, and how anabolic is receptor bound DHT?

A steroid with the brand name, Sten, was marketed in the early 90’s

as being almost pure DHT. I can tell you from personal experience

that Sten had a great anabolic bang.

I’m still convinced that all androgenic steroids are also strong

anabolics.

If you inhibit the conversion of testosterone to DHT, how much more

of it will be aromatized? More estrogen will certainly have worse

effects than some quasi progesterone effects.

I believe you will be wasting your money on testosterone, if you block

its conversion to DHT. Also, you won’t have DHT to protect your libido

from nandrolone, if that really is a problem with Deca.

“Also I believe you are under another misconception, Doc, in that you

have suggested to us that nandrolone is not pharmacologically similar

to female hormones. It is widely accepted that nandrolone has marked

affinity for progesterone receptors. Some evidence of this is that

nandrolone used alone is very often devastating to the male libido,

(like progesterone but unlike most other anabolics), and nandrolone

can cause gynacomastia without causing an increase in estradiol.â€

I’ll admit that nandrolone can cause some gynacomastia. Neither I nor

any of my friends ever experienced any libido or potency problems

while taking nandrolone, but testosterone was always part of our

weekly stacks. What other progesterone effects are there in men?

And, by the way, a given steroid receptor does not have the same

effect regardless of what steroid is activating it. Nolvadex works by

being a competitive inhibitor with estrogen for receptor sites. Also a

big part of the anticatabolic effect of steroids is due to their

competition with cortisol for receptor sites. If a receptor had the same

effect regardless of which steroid was bound to it, there could be no

such thing as competitive inhibition of hormones.

The bottom line is that my opinions about steroids are based on fairly

extensive personal experience with these substances and observations

of their effects on others, while yours are supported by a few research

articles, from which I believe you have made some false assumptions.

Extensive literature research does not make a good substitute for

finding out what works in the real world. I believe my facts are straighter

than yours.

Shall we make it dueling pistols at 10 paces?

You needn’t post any research articles on this subject for my benefit,

because I wouldn’t bother reading them, and certainly would not change

any of my opinions if I did.

The other members of this group will decide for themselves which of us

is giving them more credible and useful information. The jury is out.

Doc

[Guest guest]

Gordon,

“I learned today that dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is not very effective

as an anabolic after all. Apparently this is so because DHT is converted

to androstanediol (not androstenediol) in muscle tissue...........“

“So then Doc it is not always true that highly androgenic substances

are also anabolic. DHT is highly androgenic in skin and prostate but not

very anabolic in muscle tissue.â€

Just because DHT is converted to androstanediol in muscle cells, does

not necessarily mean it is not anabolic. How much DHT becomes

receptor bound before being metabolized, how long is the DHT

receptor bound half-life, and how anabolic is receptor bound DHT?

A steroid with the brand name, Sten, was marketed in the early 90’s

as being almost pure DHT. I can tell you from personal experience

that Sten had a great anabolic bang.

I’m still convinced that all androgenic steroids are also strong

anabolics.

If you inhibit the conversion of testosterone to DHT, how much more

of it will be aromatized? More estrogen will certainly have worse

effects than some quasi progesterone effects.

I believe you will be wasting your money on testosterone, if you block

its conversion to DHT. Also, you won’t have DHT to protect your libido

from nandrolone, if that really is a problem with Deca.

“Also I believe you are under another misconception, Doc, in that you

have suggested to us that nandrolone is not pharmacologically similar

to female hormones. It is widely accepted that nandrolone has marked

affinity for progesterone receptors. Some evidence of this is that

nandrolone used alone is very often devastating to the male libido,

(like progesterone but unlike most other anabolics), and nandrolone

can cause gynacomastia without causing an increase in estradiol.â€

I’ll admit that nandrolone can cause some gynacomastia. Neither I nor

any of my friends ever experienced any libido or potency problems

while taking nandrolone, but testosterone was always part of our

weekly stacks. What other progesterone effects are there in men?

And, by the way, a given steroid receptor does not have the same

effect regardless of what steroid is activating it. Nolvadex works by

being a competitive inhibitor with estrogen for receptor sites. Also a

big part of the anticatabolic effect of steroids is due to their

competition with cortisol for receptor sites. If a receptor had the same

effect regardless of which steroid was bound to it, there could be no

such thing as competitive inhibition of hormones.

The bottom line is that my opinions about steroids are based on fairly

extensive personal experience with these substances and observations

of their effects on others, while yours are supported by a few research

articles, from which I believe you have made some false assumptions.

Extensive literature research does not make a good substitute for

finding out what works in the real world. I believe my facts are straighter

than yours.

Shall we make it dueling pistols at 10 paces?

You needn’t post any research articles on this subject for my benefit,

because I wouldn’t bother reading them, and certainly would not change

any of my opinions if I did.

The other members of this group will decide for themselves which of us

is giving them more credible and useful information. The jury is out.

Doc

[Guest guest]

> I believe that serum testos is

> raised aproximately 15% by finasteride so some men have reported gains

> from it.

True, finasteride might even promote gains by increasing T slightly at the

expense of DHT, presuming the extra T doesn't get aromatized.

Speaking of aromatization, I would like to get a handle on the proper dose

of Arimidex for someone using typical body-building doses of 200-500 mg/week

of testosterone. I've heard doses ranging from 1mg/day to 1mg/week, which is

a huge range. I wonder if anyone has done any formal or even semi-formal

studies of Arimidex in combination with large doses of T.

-gts

Re: DHT not very anabolic after all

> In a message dated 00-04-21 04:02:04 EDT, you write:

>

> << The reduction of DHT

> by finasteride should have only a very slight negative effect on muscle

> gains, if any, and any side-effects are easily reversible.

> >>

> Even though dht at the scalp is reduced,

>

> Winter

>

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>

[Guest guest]

Gordon,

I can't quite understand the DHT problem and ask for a little help. Why don't

we have BPH when we are younger and have higher T levels. As we all know BPH

starts hitting us as we get older and our T levels drop. If T (or by-products

of T) are the cause, why is BPH an condition of us mature men. While I don't

have the problem, I would like to try an prevent it, especially being on T now,

but I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

How about saw palmetto instead of finasteride?

gordon wrote:

> Doc and all, just to keep our facts straight....

>

> I learned today that dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is not very effective as an

> anabolic after all. Apparently this is so because DHT is converted to

> androstanediol (not androstenediol) in muscle tissue by the enzyme 3beta

> hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (3bHSD), the same enzyme that converts

> androdiol to testosterone.

>

> So then Doc it is not always true that highly androgenic substances are also

> anabolic. DHT is highly androgenic in skin and prostate but not very

> anabolic in muscle tissue.

>

> I have been studying these issues in depth and my conclusion is that steroid

> users, especially those who stack with substantial amounts of testosterone,

> should by all means consider taking finasteride (Propecia, Proscar) to

> protect the scalp and prostate if they have any reason to think they may be

> vulnerable either to male pattern baldness or enlargement of the prostate.

> The costs of this strategy is minimal for most males. The reduction of DHT

> by finasteride should have only a very slight negative effect on muscle

> gains, if any, and any side-effects are easily reversible.

>

> One interesting exception: males who take nandrolone alone (without stacking

> with testosterone) should NOT take finasteride. This is because nandrolone

> is converted to dihydronandrolone (DHN) by 5 alpha reductase rather than

> DHT, and DHN has less affinity for the androgen receptors in the scalp than

> nandrolone. Finasteride may therefore actually promote hair loss in those

> who take nandrolone alone!

>

> Also I believe you are under another misconception, Doc, in that you have

> suggested to us that nandrolone is not pharmacologically similar to female

> hormones. It is widely accepted that nandrolone has marked affinity for

> progesterone receptors. Some evidence of this is that nandrolone used alone

> is very often devastating to the male libido, (like progesterone but unlike

> most other anabolics), and nandrolone can cause gynocomastia without causing

> an increase in estradiol. In fact nandrolone alone at 300 mg/week causes a

> decrease in estradiol, so gyno from nandrolone is not explained by

> aromatization to estradiol but rather by its progesterogenic activity.

>

> Stanozolol (Winstrol) has been suggested as a good stack with nandrolone

> because stanozolol has been shown to have some anti-progesterogenic

> activity.

>

> -gts

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni

> already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll

> find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:

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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dale,

> Why don't we have BPH when we are younger and have higher T levels.

I don't know the answer to that, but I would guess that one reason is that

our prostate glands become dysfunctional with age and more vulnerable to the

negative effects of DHT. We know DHT plays a role in BPH because its

reduction via the inhibition of 5-alpha-reductase with finasteride (Proscar)

definitely helps the condition. Increased estrogens probably also play an

important part.

In more general terms, I think it's just a fact of life that young bodies

can handle all sorts of insults that wreak havoc in older bodies. I think

nature's warranty begins to expire gradually around age 25, which is about

the time by which our genes expect us to have produced offspring.

> How about saw palmetto instead of finasteride?

I hear saw palmetto helps but I would be taking both saw palmetto and

finasteride if I was concerned about prostate problems. I'm not a doctor but

finasteride seems to be a reasonably safe and effective medicine with few

side effects.

-gts

[Guest guest]

Tom,

Does what you report concerning the success of the Chinese female distance

runners and swimmers use of DHT creme (presumably rubbed on their muscles)

indicate that male athletes (sprinter, in my case) might also be able to use

such a product to advantage? If so, where can I get some for trial usage?

Thanks for your help.

F. M. Richbourg

PS Lets get that clinic for anti-aging going. I may have access to the

kind of money necessary to fund such a project in the near future.

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

to Tim,

Wow! Your mention of the old Shamrock Hotel pool brought back long

forgotten but very pleasant memories. My doubles partner and I spent a

night there while competing in the Southern United States Junior Olympics

Tennis Tournament in Houston--I lived in Pt. Neches then (summer of 1952 or

so). I listened to a sad love song and looked out my window for a long time

watching the swimmers and wishing most fervently that my girl friend was

with me that night. I was sick in love with her then which is why my

memories are so vivid and emotional. (I suppose you know that beautiful

hotel was torn down several years ago.)

Since you exercise for endorfins, my rest schedule would not, in fact, be a

good idea for you. I exercise for growth of muscle size, so extended rest

between exercise sessions is best for me. Fortunately, I enjoy life

enormously without frequent endorfin stimulation. Actually, exercise just

makes me tired rather than happy. While I could probably pick up a large

" Black Diamond " water mellon and even enjoy eating it , carrying it any

great distance would be out of the question since, untill recently, I have

not done any upper body workouts for many years--and it shows. My natural T

levels have been low for a long time, so muscle wasting has been a serious

problem which I am at last getting around to correcting.

If you read Tom's discouraging post on HGH releasers, it appears I may have

to return my VesPro for lack of effect. That does not really surprise me.

I have a diet and exercise guru, however, who claims to have achieved the

desired rejuvenation hormone results without HGHr. Will try to keep you

posted on that as it developes if it is of any interest to you.

F. M. Richbourg

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

> I can't quite understand the DHT problem and ask for a little help. Why

don't

> we have BPH when we are younger and have higher T levels. As we all know

BPH

> starts hitting us as we get older and our T levels drop. If T (or

by-products

> of T) are the cause, why is BPH an condition of us mature men. While I

don't

> have the problem, I would like to try an prevent it, especially being on T

now,

> but I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

BPH is a mystery to researchers, Dale, so don't worry if you can't put it

together. One jey difference between young and older men is time. BPH

doesn't develop from one time exposure to a specific hormone. It is most

likley the results of exposure to a variety of hornmones and other agents

over many years. This is why it ois often said if men live long enough,

they will get BPH or some other prostatic ailment. One nice thing is that

sexual activity is inveresly correlated with prostatic ailments. Lycopene

and other agents have also been inversely correlated with prostatic

ailments.

Years ago they would correlate total hormone levels in the

blood/serum/plasma to BPH. Then it was free hormones in blood/plasma/serum.

Now it is actual measures of the free hormones in the prostatic cells

themselves that are being measured via biopsies. This area of research is

somtimes referred to as " intracrinology. " So far it appears that the key

players in BPH are DHT, estradiol, and alpha receptors. Different labd have

claimed that beta receptors and IGF-1 levels are also related but I don't

thinks this is as widely accepted. The latest protocols I have seen to

decrease BPH involve the use of very selective aromtase and

5-alpha-reductase inhibitors with an alpha receptor blocker.

Tom

Incledon, MS, RD, LD, LN, CSCS

Director of Sports Nutrition

Human Performance Specialists, Inc.

619 NW 90th Terrace

Plantation, FL 33324

954-577-0689

hpsinc@...

[Guest guest]

> I learned today that dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is not very effective as an

> anabolic after all. Apparently this is so because DHT is converted to

> androstanediol (not androstenediol) in muscle tissue by the enzyme 3beta

> hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (3bHSD), the same enzyme that converts

> androdiol to testosterone.

This depends on the dosages, subjects, animal models, tissues, etc that are

being studied. I have several endocrine textbooks which claim that DHT is

not very anabolic but very androgenic. When I looked at the refs, it was

based off of low dosages. Years ago the Chinese female swimmers and

distance runners were killing everyone in international competitions. They

claimed it was a special soup and various natural products. Later on the

truth came out. All of the women were taking a topical DHT cream. DHT was

not tested for in women since it was considered predominantly a male

hormone. These women were very muscular and very aggressive. Recent data

from a colleague of mine indicates that DHT upregulates androgen receptors

in skeletal muscle and is very anabolic. (I think they studied rats, but I

can't recall off hand and I am out of town right now). This would indicate

that DHT may be anabolic directly by increasing protein synthesis in skeltal

muscle, and indirectly by increasing the potential for T and other androgens

to bind to skeletal muscle. The dosages were very high and the rats were

castrated so the only androgen (other than very tiny amount from the

adrenals) was the DHT they were given. This ties in well with data from

other androgens in humans.

> So then Doc it is not always true that highly androgenic substances are

also

> anabolic. DHT is highly androgenic in skin and prostate but not very

> anabolic in muscle tissue.

I have excellent books from the 50's from Germany were they systematically

changed very parts of the steroid molecule and tested the relative

anabolic:androgenic effects. This can vary from agent to agent. I will

look up what they claim about DHT on skeletal muscle. The latest data I

have seen from is that DHT is anabolic to skeletal muscle.

> I have been studying these issues in depth and my conclusion is that

steroid

> users, especially those who stack with substantial amounts of

testosterone,

> should by all means consider taking finasteride (Propecia, Proscar) to

> protect the scalp and prostate if they have any reason to think they may

be

> vulnerable either to male pattern baldness or enlargement of the prostate.

> The costs of this strategy is minimal for most males. The reduction of DHT

> by finasteride should have only a very slight negative effect on muscle

> gains, if any, and any side-effects are easily reversible.

One problem with only blocking the reductase pathway is that now more

substrate can travel down the aromatase pathway. My thoughts are one should

block both pathways or neither pathway. I have seen guys get gyno just from

blocking reductase. there are also case reports of guys getting gyno by

using Finasteride.

> One interesting exception: males who take nandrolone alone (without

stacking

> with testosterone) should NOT take finasteride. This is because nandrolone

> is converted to dihydronandrolone (DHN) by 5 alpha reductase rather than

> DHT, and DHN has less affinity for the androgen receptors in the scalp

than

> nandrolone. Finasteride may therefore actually promote hair loss in those

> who take nandrolone alone!

Rat research confirms this.

> Stanozolol (Winstrol) has been suggested as a good stack with nandrolone

> because stanozolol has been shown to have some anti-progesterogenic

> activity.

Isn't Stanozolol DHT? I thought it was. I will have to look at the

chemical structure when I return back home.

Tom

Incledon, MS, RD, LD, LN, CSCS

Director of Sports Nutrition

Human Performance Specialists, Inc.

619 NW 90th Terrace

Plantation, FL 33324

954-577-0689

hpsinc@...

[Guest guest]

> You needn’t post any research articles on this subject for my

> benefit, because I wouldn’t bother reading them, and certainly

> would not change any of my opinions if I did.

Doc that does not strike me as a very scientific attitude.

> I believe you will be wasting your money on testosterone, if you block

> its conversion to DHT.

You believe it, but based on what evidence? You deny the validity of academc

research and claim that your knowledge is valid and based on personal

experience, yet you do not claim personal experience with taking finasteride

in combination with testosterone. How then can you claim that it does not

work?

Sten, the steroid similar to DHT, may work by bypassing the enzymatic

conversion to to androstanediol mentioned in my previous. It is not after

all identical to DHT. Furthermore (and this goes to Tom's point) I do not

deny that DHT would be anabolic if taken in large enough quantities such as

to overwhelm the enzyme.

The question is whether it makes sense to inhibit 5-alpha-reductase with

finasteride to reduce DHT when juicing with testosterone, and my answer is

that yes it does make sense if there is any reason to suspect MPB or BPH. I

have consulted with numerous steroid using BB'ers with far more steroid

experience than myself, and they confirm that finasteride was helpful in

stopping their hair loss and that it did not block the anabolic effects of

T.

-gts

[Guest guest]

Tom,

> I have several endocrine textbooks which claim that DHT is

> not very anabolic but very androgenic.

Yes, that is what I would expect.

> When I looked at the refs, it was

> based off of low dosages.

And studies of low dosages are appropriate given that maybe only 1/4 to 1/3

of T gets converted to DHT.

The question, as I've mentioned in my last post to Doc, is whether

inhibiting 5a-reductase with finasteride will reduce gains too much to

justify its use as an anti-MPB and anti-BPH treatment in body-builders. The

answer appears to be no. In fact finasteride may even increase gains,

because that portion of T not converted to DHT is likely to have a more

anabolic effect than the DHT to which it would otherwise have been

converted.

-gts

[Guest guest]

to F. M. Richbourg

My exercise routine is supported by Dr. Klatz's

workout recommendations in his HGH writings.

Muscle size & strength more than enough to carry a

large " Black Diamond " watermelon are side effects of

the HGH stimulation from my exercise sessions.

Forum poster " Bigdoc " has nothing good to say about

endorphin freaks, but I do exercise for hedionistic

purposes.

To quote one of my favorite old men, Brown, " I

feeeel good " , after a good workout.

I love a hard workout & have exercised aerobically

since 1956, as an age group swimmer. I remember going

to the old Shamrock Hilton Hotel Swimming Pool, 55

yard (50 meters + 5 1/2 inches) hotel pool!, after

taking my SATs in 1964 & swimming sprint after sprint

after sprint.. hard workout!!.. had never heard of

stress or endorphins but knew a hard workout would

make me " feeeeel good " ..

old habits are hard to break..

hard aerobic exercise has always been one of my

primary pleasures!..

I've had sex that was way less than satisfying but

I've had never a hard workoput that wasn't uplifting!

Most of my memorable sexual partners have enjoyed

aerobic sex. If I'm not sweating with lactic acid

burn in my arms & legs, I was not inspired & probably

would not invite my lazy / uninpiring partner back for

a additional multi-facited pleasure sessions!

may the gods of copious sweat & lactic acid burn be

with you..

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Tom,

> The latest data I

> have seen from is that DHT is anabolic to skeletal muscle.

Just to be clear about this for everyone's sake...as you know, EVERY

anabolic steroid is both androgenic and anabolic. Some are more androgenic

than anabolic, and vice versa.

In the lab, androgenicity is a measure of the extent to which a steroid

causes an increase in the size of the prostate and seminal vesicles and

anabolism is measured by the effect on muscle protein synthesis.

DHT is both androgenic and anabolic, but RELATIVE TO TESTOSTERONE it is more

androgenic and less anabolic. It is less anabolic in muscle not because it

is inherently non-anabolic, but because it is largely deactivated by an

enzyme present in muscle tissue.

This means blocking DHT has little effect on muscle gains.

Finasteride can be used to treat MPB and BHP without much risk of hindering

muscle gains, and stopped in the event of side-effects.

Decreased libido is one possible side-effect of reduced DHT from

finasteride. Decreased CNS stimulation is another possible side effect of

special interest to body builders. Reduction of DHT might cause some steriod

users to feel less " jacked " . However for most people there are no

side-effects to finasteride, and the preservation of hair and prostate are

not trivial concerns.

The gyno side-effect of finasteride mentioned in the literature is probably

due to the fact that DHT is a natural aromatase inhibitor. But this alone is

not sufficient reason to avoid finasteride, as aromatization is already a

problem for steroid users with or without finasteride. Heavy steroid using

BB'ers should take blood tests for estradiol and when necessary use

aromatase inhibitors like cytraden (sp?), or better yet Arimidex, to keep

estradiol under control. Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) and Clomiphen citrate (Clomid)

can also help by selectively blocking the negative effects of estrogens.

From what I understand Clomid alone is usually sufficient for this purpose,

and also helps to keep natural testosterone in production when dosed at

about 50 mg every other day and 100 mg every day at the end of each cycle.

-gts

[Guest guest]

Gordon:

I suspect doc is right that DHT is highly anabolic. Several years ago the

Chinese

swimmers, who were breaking world records right and left yet passing all the

drug tests were finally " caught " . The identified steroid found in their urine

was DHT, something that had not apparently been examined in prior drug

testing. Based on their record setting performances it appears DHT is very

capable on improving muscle cell biochemistry..

If nanadrolone has femininizing characteristics, it's news to me. I took

it for many months and had no problems. In fact it worked about the same as

testostereone enthante and I had no gyno with either. I have been taking

progesterone cream for several months to protect my prostate and it also has

had no effect on my 'breasts " . I have never heard of progesterone

contributing to gyno. It would seem to me that it would be just the opposite

as progesterone is the natural antagonist to estrodiol. Where do you get this

info from?

I also don't believe we should be recommending finisteride (Proscar) to

anyone, period! This drug is a little too effective at inhibiting the T to

DHT conversion. Remember healthy prostate cells are dependant on a continous

supply of DHT and lowering it excessively will only make for an unhealthy

prostate gland. BPH symptoms have not been shown to be improved to any

significant degree by Proscar (especially if compared to saw palmetto) and a

preliminary study at USC actually found Proscar INCREASED the risk of

developing prostate cancer by a factor of 3 relative to a placebo!

[Guest guest]

Gordon:

I believe doc is right and that DHT is quiet anabolic. Several years ago

when the Chinese swimmers were breaking records right and left, yet passing

all the drug tests they were finally " caught. " The culprit? DHT!

Apparently it has quite a bit of muscle cell biochemical effect.

I also took nandrolone for several months and experienced no gyno. It

pretty much worked about the same from an anabolic and androgenic standpoint

as testosterone enthante. I have not heard that stimulating progesterone

receptors causes breast cell

hypertrophy/hyperplasia. Progesterone does activate estrogen receptors making

them more responsive to estradiol. I have been taking progesterone cream to

protect my prostate from estradiol as it is the natural antagonist to

estrogens. Where does this info come from that progesterone causes gyno?

Finally, I do not think we should be recommending Proscar (finisteride) to

anyone, period! This drug is a little TOO effective at inhibiting the T to

DHT conversion process and makes for an unhealthy prostate gland. Normal

prostate cells require DHT to be healthy. It has unfairly been given a bad

rap in my opinion. Proscar has not been shown to be clinically any more

clinically effective at reducing BPH symptoms than saw palmetto, which is why

it been " reincarnated " in a weaker version by the drug company as " Propecia " .

A preliminary study at USC published a couple years ago found Proscar

users were 3x more likely to develope prostate cancer than placebo!

Apparently depriving the prostate of DHT is not a wise stategy in cancer

prevention. Saw palmetto, pygeum and stinging nettle extracts are safer, have

less side effects and work by differing mechanisms to maintain prostate

health.

Randy

[Guest guest]

Gordon:

One mg of Arimidex, two times/week is very effective at lowering estradiol.

Two of our patients with moderately elevated estradiols ( 50 and 89) were

reduced to below 10 mg% within 3 weeks on this dosage. One was on 100 mg/week

of testosteroene cyprionate and the other on clomid and HCG. It would appear

based on this that only one mg per week may be indicated for normal

physiologic replacement doses of testosterone.

Randy

[Guest guest]

We get BPH as we age not because of testosterone or DHT, but because of

rising estradiol levels. Estradiol has been found to attach itself to

androgen receptors in the prostate stimulating cell growth. This was covered

in some detail in the Life Extension Foundation issue of February 1999. High

levels of testosterone and DHT protect one from BPH by antagonizing

estradiol. A urologist in Europe has been treating BPH with DHT for over 20

years now because of this rationale. As I said, DHT has been geting an unneed

bad rap for too long! This bad rap was more pharmacolgically induced than

physiologic!!

Randy

[Guest guest]

Randy,

I agree with you 100%. Gordon is out in left field on this matter.

Recommending Proscar to reduce hair loss from injecting testosterone is

absurd and dangerous advice. A serious law suite against Gordon and possibly

our whole group could result, if anyone is foolish enough to follow his

recommendation. Gordon has lost credibility with me to the extent that I

will not respond to any more of his attempts to shoot me down.

Doc

[Guest guest]

Randy,

Thank you for this very important and informitive posting. I hope we've

heard the last about taking drugs to suppress DHT.

Doc

[Guest guest]

> Tom,

>

> Does what you report concerning the success of the Chinese female distance

> runners and swimmers use of DHT creme (presumably rubbed on their muscles)

> indicate that male athletes (sprinter, in my case) might also be able to

use

> such a product to advantage? If so, where can I get some for trial usage?

> Thanks for your help.

>

> F. M. Richbourg

In high enough dosages DHT can work in men quite well. In lower dosages when

combined with other agents it can also work well. The real question though

is it the best option, I agree with Gordon that for men other agents (ie T)

may be better. For years bodybuildres have stacked various anabolic agents

and switched from on drug to another because they were trying to avoid

receptor down-regulation. Most of the work I have been reading lately

indicates that some agents upregulate androgen receptors in muscle but

down-regulate androgen receptors in the testes. A clinic where this could

be systematically researched would have tremednous benfits because it would

eliminate the guess-work and keep dosages much lower and safer.

> PS Lets get that clinic for anti-aging going. I may have access to the

> kind of money necessary to fund such a project in the near future.

I have two projects that I am working on right now. The first is a web site

that I am launching where I will keep track of supplement use and results.

It's free and allows us to obtain cumulative real world data on what works

and what doesn't. The information will be made available to all who

participate. In the future I will try to post a questionnaire to get

feedback from list members as to the type of information that people would

want to see or read about. I will make no money from this endeavor, the

benefits to me is that I will be able to get an idea of what products are

worth studying in the future under more controlled conditions.

The second project I developing a facility in FL to test for various

vitamins, minerals, hormones, cytokines, eicosanoids in the blood, urine,

and/or hair. We have been working on this for some time for elite athletes

and it would apply to longevity or anti-aging seekers as well. The

equipment to do all of this is very expensive. The real challenge is to be

able to put this all together and offer it to everyone so that insurance or

money do not become limiting factors. I have some ideas where the data

could be funded by government funds down the road but it will take time to

get to that point and funds will be needed over the interim. I will finish

up my Ph.D. first and by that time will have all the info, business plans,

etc I need to launch this project. Anyone serious about contributing

financially can simply call me below.

Tom

Incledon, MS, RD, LD, LN, CSCS

Director of Sports Nutrition

Human Performance Specialists, Inc.

619 NW 90th Terrace

Plantation, FL 33324

954-577-0689

hpsinc@...

[Guest guest]

Randy.

> Gordon:

>

> I suspect doc is right that DHT is highly anabolic. Several years ago

the

> Chinese

In LARGE DOSES of course it is anabolic.

But I think it is not more anabolic than testosterone itself, and that is

the real question here.

Doc, what the HELL is this crap about a lawsuit against Gordon? Hmm? This is

a discussion group, where people people present different opinions and back

them up with arguments.

-gts

[Guest guest]

Tom,

> In high enough dosages DHT can work in men quite well. In lower dosages

> when combined with other agents it can also work well. The real question

> though is it the best option, I agree with Gordon that for men other

agents

> (ie T) may be better.

Thank you. Now someone please tell Doc.

The conversion of T to DHT probably reduces gains. This is not because DHT

is not anabolic. It is because T is MORE anabolic than DHT.

-gts

[Guest guest]

Randy,

> Proscar has not been shown to be clinically any more

> clinically effective at reducing BPH symptoms than saw palmetto, which is

> why it been " reincarnated " in a weaker version by the drug company as

> " Propecia " .

No, finasteride was reincarnated as Propecia because it was found that small

doses of finasteride were effective in reducing hair loss. Propecia is

indicated for MPB, Proscar for BPH, and the nature of our regulatory system

is that they be treated as separate drugs.

DHT is practically worthless in the vast majority of adult men, and I defy

anyone here to prove otherwise.

> A preliminary study at USC published a couple years ago found Proscar

...

I'm interested final peer-reviewed studies in established medical journals.

These are the only studies that can be trusted when there are conflicting

reports.

But then of course Doc is not interested in any studies at all. He tells me

he will refuse to read any studies I might post here. Apparently he prefers

to rely only on what he heard someone say in the locker room, and then he

threatens to sue anyone who disagrees with him.

-gts

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

I would like to thank all for their responses on this subject. It has been one

of the most enlightening yet. I am going to side against using proscar or Saw

based on my personal experience.

As many of you know my T levels started to take a nose dive and I really started

feeling fatigued late last year for no good reason according. A very expensive

visit to Uro showed low everything. T, free T, FSH/LH with normal thyroid

function. He seemed to feel that is was something exogenous causing the

problem and asked me to stop taking many products. There were only two new

products I had introduce around that time, one was from a Oriental Medical

Doctor

to help detox liver and the other was Saw Palmetto 120 mg/day. While I can't

support my suspicions, I feel the Saw may have been the major factor or a one

two

punch from the two.

Of course I have stopped, and levels elevated some, but not enough to return my

strength and vigor. I have now been on T compound and feel much better. Again,

nothing scientific here, but worth mentioning.

Also, while I would agree strongly with Dr. Speers mention of Gordon's research

being no substitute for clinical experience, I sure appreciate you work Gordon

and know you have learning receptors all the way down to your toes. Hopefully

we

will get the best of both worlds. Clinicians would be lost without research.

Thanks,

Dale