Re: R: Alternatives to Animal Products - A Defining Issue for NPers

[Guest guest]

On Apr 30, 2005, at 8:35 AM, <mauroballabio@...> wrote:

> To obtain a substitute to Muskdeer you should first find a male goat

> in the

> period of sexual excitation. This is easily recognized because the

> smell is

> stronger. You should cut what you can of his hair and tincture them.

Trim the hair of a sexually excited male goat to tincture the scent for

perfumery? Somehow I think this will just not be something I will

personally experience anytime soon ;-)

I think when the topic of substitutions was brought up that the idea

was substituting with other natural non animal products.

>

> This is the nearest I know you can ever come to Muskdeer, but it is

> possible

> that with the hair of antipopes, deers or reindeers one may obtain

> even a

> better result.

I know in the area I live in these living (wild) animals are not likely

to invite one to trim their hair while living. I think we have crossed

into an area where some of us do become very uncomfortable. It may be a

" natural " material, but how it is obtained I think does not feel so

natural. I guess this more about what we are comfortable with

personally. It is interesting from a learning perspective I suppose to

have this information, but besides using beeswax and honey, I'd rather

stick with botanical materials.

Whole Life Essentials

http://www.WholeLifeEssentials.com

[Guest guest]

Trim the hair of a sexually excited male goat to tincture the scent for

perfumery? Somehow I think this will just not be something I will personally

experience anytime soon ;-)

Dear ,

A diverse and most fascinating subject....thank you for giving me my

morning chuckle!

Faith

[Guest guest]

At 12:21 PM 4/30/2005, you wrote:

>Trim the hair of a sexually excited male goat to tincture the scent for

>perfumery? Somehow I think this will just not be something I will

>personally experience anytime soon ;-)

Pan would certainly disapprove! LOL.

>I think we have crossed

>into an area where some of us do become very uncomfortable. It may be a

> " natural " material, but how it is obtained I think does not feel so

>natural. I guess this more about what we are comfortable with

>personally. It is interesting from a learning perspective I suppose to

>have this information, but besides using beeswax and honey, I'd rather

>stick with botanical materials.

, you're not a farm girl, nor am I, although I play one

sporadically when I visit friend's farms :-). If there are any soapers here

who keep herds of goats for milk, it might be interesting to hear from

them. Still, I agree with your statement, and mine, earlier, that it would

be good to hear more about botanical sources for fixatives, from their

personal experiences (waiting for goat-wrestling stories to come forth, too!)

Anya

http://anyamccoy.com

" Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. "

Mark Twain

[Guest guest]

> " To obtain a substitute to Muskdeer you should first find a male goat

Trim the hair of a sexually excited male goat to tincture the scent for

perfumery? Somehow I think this will just not be something I will

personally experience anytime soon ;-)

I think when the topic of substitutions was brought up that the idea

was substituting with other natural non animal products. "

I don't know, I think it's a great idea! Honestly, the goat won't mind. I

know, I have 3 goats I keep as pets. My male, Odin, is over 200 lbs, but so

very accomodating. All I'd have to say is, " pleaaase " , and he gets all mushy

with me.

What I have problems with is animals being exploited and tortured for people's

selfish desires. I don't have problems with using animal products, per se,

though I don't make much use of them in what I do anyway.

Interesting topic.

[Guest guest]

On Apr 30, 2005, at 11:05 PM, mizperfumelady wrote:

> I am open to using animal products and

> I don't think I am an evil monster. My point in my prior post is that

> our culture is based on the abuse of animals, in food, medicine, and

> goods

More interesting points. I think choice and respect are important here.

Personally I would want to know whether or not a " natural perfume " I

used contained animal products- whether or not they were gathered in a

cruel or a humane way. I would not choose to use a " natural perfume " on

my skin that contained animal products without my informed consent.

I know there are many customers in our shared " niche " who would want to

know whether the perfume they were buying contained any animal

products. Some may not use any animal products, some may keep kosher

and not use certain animal products, some may be vegan, some are fine

with using bee products and dairy, etc. Ethically, I believe we have a

responsibility to let them know- as we have chosen to sell to a niche

that is very concerned with these kinds of choices. I am talking about

the niche of customers who buy " natural products " . This is who we have

to consider- and certainly we have to know our own demographic.

I am thinking that for now on I will be sure to state when a perfume or

body product I make contains any bee products, because although I use

them, I do so with an informed choice. It is important to me that my

customers have that choice. As an aside I live in a community where my

neighbors keep kosher. Tinctured animal hairs gathered ethically (even

to *have* touch the space I work in) would not be something that would

be permissible.

So, my point is we are all serving communities with people who are

making very conscious choices. The natural perfume industry serves the

same niche that is reading labels and trying to make informed choices.

Many of us certainly are serving a different niche- some who are

serving the luxury products niche may not need to be concerned with

disclosure in the same way, but for those of us who's clientele have

come to us because they trust us to give them truly high quality,

natural ingredients, botanically derived, ethically made, safe and

earth friendly products- I think we should disclose the animal products

contained in our goods- whether or not they have been created with

cruelty or not. I think it should be the informed choice of our

customer.

I would like to know who is using ingredients like civet in their

perfumes- and other (non bee or milk) animal products- because I do not

care to use them. I do think as long as it is legal that people have a

right to use anything they choose. Choice is the key word. Another

matter entirely would be a perfumer who use ingredients that would

certainly be objectionable to an informed consumer and intentionally

deceives them. I would think with the price of something like civet- it

has to be high, right?, that this is not a common practice.

Lastly, if anyone accuses a perfumer or natural perfume supplier or

company of an unethical or illegal activity here- or anywhere- I do

think that claim should be made in such a way that is ethical and fair

and the person or company accused should be given an opportunity to

respond and possibly defend themselves. Their reputations are at stake-

and really as a community we have a lot at stake in how we conduct

ourselves not only related to our own business practices, but how we

are perceived and whether we are trusted.

Whole Life Essentials

http://www.WholeLifeEssentials.com

[Guest guest]

>

> > I am open to using animal products and

> > I don't think I am an evil monster. My point in my prior post is that

> > our culture is based on the abuse of animals, in food, medicine, and

> > goods

>

>

Yes, well, each of us can always find some reason to take on a

" holier-than-thou " attitude

if that is what we are looking to do!

The key thing is open debate, and not stifling others' opinions because they are

less

popular than our own.

I mean, how many people worried about animal ingredients in perfume (myself

included,

though I want to learn all I can about them) are wearing leather shoes, eat

factory-farmed

chicken, veal, have homes built from wood whose harvest resulted in the death of

countless millions of " insignificant " creatures (the kinds that we don't worry

about because

they don't have fur and a comparable anatomy to our own), own clothing from

sweatshop

child-labor, use drugs and cosmetics tested on tortured animals, etc., etc..

I'm not saying we should use products from endangered, threatened, or mistreated

plants

or animals, but it would be nice to be able to discuss them openly, if nothing

else than

from the desire to know how to effectively replace their use with other

substances that

have similar properties or to source materials that have the least amount of

cruelty

associated with their production.

-stepping off my soapbox, thanks for listening -

[Guest guest]

> On Apr 30, 2005, at 11:05 PM, mizperfumelady wrote:

>

> > I am open to using animal products and

> > I don't think I am an evil monster. My point in my prior post is that

> > our culture is based on the abuse of animals, in food, medicine, and

> > goods

>

replied:

> More interesting points. I think choice and respect are important here.

> Personally I would want to know whether or not a " natural perfume " I

> used contained animal products- whether or not they were gathered in a

> cruel or a humane way. I would not choose to use a " natural perfume " on

> my skin that contained animal products without my informed consent.

I totally agree, , we have a choice (and should be given it) - the

civet does not.

Fragrance can touch the soul - how I would hate my soul to be touched by

this kind of cruelty

http://tinyurl.com/77und

Please take a moment to read and consider the above.

The fact that our culture is based on the abuse of animals does not make it

right nor does it excuse us for perpetuating such abuse.

Liz

[Guest guest]

At 04:54 PM 5/1/2005, you wrote:

>Fragrance can touch the soul - how I would hate my soul to be touched by

>this kind of cruelty

>http://tinyurl.com/77und

>Please take a moment to read and consider the above.

>The fact that our culture is based on the abuse of animals does not make it

>right nor does it excuse us for perpetuating such abuse.

>Liz

Liz -- I'm behind in some responses, but asking to upload the oil

info reminds me ask you to put this link in the Files section. You can name

it Civet cruelty, or whatever you want. Everyone has free will, but I'm

sure some will be very affected by your link.

Anya

http://anyamccoy.com

" Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. "

Mark Twain

[Guest guest]

> Liz -- I'm behind in some responses, but asking to upload the

oil

> info reminds me ask you to put this link in the Files section. You can

name

> it Civet cruelty, or whatever you want. Everyone has free will, but I'm

> sure some will be very affected by your link.

I will *try* (ha!)......

Liz