RE: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

[Guest guest]

"I believe that when there is a large disparity it is a sign of low professional self-esteem."

Hahahha, I had to laugh at that one. Why would there be any disparity at all if they had low self esteem. Low self esteem would indicate they dont' feel they're worth it. If not, then their charges to PIP should be very low as well.

But, I'm assuming you are saying that you are worth what PIP pays and are going to charge everyone near that value insured or not? Perhaps thats at the other end of esteem then. Aint gonna work in my hood and without any cash patients the old self esteem could also take a hit.

Look I hate when people devalue what we do by placing stupid ads saying free tx or free exam etc. or just charging people rediculously low amounts. I have what you call a "large disparity" between PIP and cash. I thought i did this because i had a heart and wanted to make treatment affordable so they get it and get better.

I still have people call for my cash rate and most don't make an appointment. They keep calling for the cheapest guy in town. Whoever you are in NE portland, you should be ashamed of yourself. Anwyay.... It may be better business to charge folks that high amount in that if you get one to bite, it makes more than you would have on 4 at the lower rate, but thats not how i operate, self esteem has nothing to do with it.

There are though folks who also take PIP and rape it. This is terrible and must stop. However, if one performs a service, why shouldn't they be reimbursed at the full rate PIP pays?

BTW, there are LMT's in PDX that do 75/hr.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

Ted: I have not heard about it. We got rid of dual fee scale about 7 years ago at our office.But I think we all know that a limited number of "savvy" LMTs and quite a few L.Ac.s are now riding the gravy train with respect to PIP. I've see invoices for $40x 4 units ($160) for 3 times a week times 4 weeks. Then two per week etc. Not too shabby. That was the only Tx the patient was getting and it was prescribed by some MD in PDX. Pit that against, the going cash rate for a "non-spa" basic 60 min massage in PDX is about $55-65 bucks. So, this is likely the kind of disparity they might be seeing.Unfortunately too many chiros still have too much disparity between PIP and cash/MC etc. in my opinion....not that I snoop around at others billing, but we share PIP patients, patients change doctors etc. and it is easy to find out how much benefit was exhausted for what amount of service. I believe that when there is a large disparity it is a sign of low professional self-esteem. J. , DCwww.springbrookclinic.comwww.DaytonOregon.org

[Guest guest]



No you're right Ann, DC"s are sometimes the WORST on this issue and it looks horrible. I get people from clinics around town and many seem to have no shame.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

Ted: I have not heard about it. We got rid of dual fee scale about 7 years ago at our office.But I think we all know that a limited number of "savvy" LMTs and quite a few L.Ac.s are now riding the gravy train with respect to PIP. I've see invoices for $40x 4 units ($160) for 3 times a week times 4 weeks. Then two per week etc. Not too shabby. That was the only Tx the patient was getting and it was prescribed by some MD in PDX. Pit that against, the going cash rate for a "non-spa" basic 60 min massage in PDX is about $55-65 bucks. So, this is likely the kind of disparity they might be seeing.Unfortunately too many chiros still have too much disparity between PIP and cash/MC etc. in my opinion....not that I snoop around at others billing, but we share PIP patients, patients change doctors etc. and it is easy to find out how much benefit was exhausted for what amount of service. I believe that when there is a large disparity it is a sign of low professional self-esteem. J. , DCwww.springbrookclinic.comwww.DaytonOregon.org

[Guest guest]

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels

about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other

doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

Who made this law, this insurance companies? Don't tell me that our Oregon Board made it! Wow, how different from state to state. From: joe medlin <spinetree@...>Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies , "Walter Wiese" <docwiese7@...>Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

Fees: I give a reasonable time of

service discount for payment at time of service. If it was legal to do

so, I would like to have a (cash / payment at time of service fee) and an

insurance fee that is considerably more. If we charge the same for

insurance and for cash, our cash patients are, in reality, paying more for the

service they get. We need more staff for insurance. We spend much

more time on paperwork with insurance, and, as we all know, the amount of

paperwork differs between companies. I would love to see us be able to

charge a fee for our service and then the appropriate paperwork fee. If

we do no insurance, we have time to see more patients, or time and energy for

our families at the end of the day. I’d love for us all to be

united on this. I feel we would be wise to unite and all of us NOT sell

our souls to insurance companies so they will “give” us their

patients rather than allowing the chiropractor down the street to see

them. Fees – it seems to me it would be good if we had a set fee

for each code, that we all charged, and it’s a free country so I guess if

I want to charge $200. for a 98941 and someone wants to pay me that, I have the

right to do that?

Janet L Rueger, DC

Certified in

Craniopathy

149 Clear Creek Dr., Suite 105

Ashland, OR

97520

541-690-6799

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Walter Wiese

Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010

12:41 PM

joe medlin

Cc:

Subject: Re:

Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

Who made this law, this insurance companies?

Don't tell me that our Oregon Board made it! Wow, how different from

state to state.

From: joe medlin <spinetreeqwestoffice (DOT) net>

Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

, " Walter Wiese "

<docwiese7 >

Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all

be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to

discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's

probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.

Spine Tree Chiropractic

1607 NE Alberta St

PDX, OR 97211

503-788-6800

Re: [From

OregonDCs] Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules

there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient

then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will

come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of

billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate

was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged.

Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it.

I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges

less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?

Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would

like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what

Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash

for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge

$100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some

uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS

WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we

really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street

if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand

strong together not divided and battling each other.

That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after

being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD

and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for

months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change.

We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret

about how to get our paycheck other the next guy.

Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

If it was legal to do so, I would like to have a (cash / payment at time of service fee) and an insurance fee that is considerably more.

Janet, I believe it is legal to do so.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

The way the rules are written, we have the

ability to charge whatever we want for a particular service. If you wish

to bill $1000 for a 98940, then you can do that. You would have to bill

$1000 for insurance as well as cash patients. However, what you accept as

payment in full is different. Obviously you will have to accept what

insurance gives you as part of their fee schedule. This is the same as

accepting the contract with a PPO. You may bill $1000, but we will only

give you $35.50, and you agree to accept it. For PIP, you may bill $1000,

but you have to accept $51.03 as payment in full. You have the right to

offer a time of service discount if your patient does not require you to send a

bill, or add staff time to your collections process. But the charge for

your 98940 still has to be $1000, and then provide a 95% discount and accept

$50.

That being said, for those who work with

insurance companies (PIP, WC especially), if you provide a large discount (ie

95%) for your time of service discount, and/or if you maximize your bills by

increasing the number of units per massage, exercise or therapy, then be

prepared to be placed in the special investigations unit (fraud squad) every

time you send a bill. This will significantly delay your payment and

increase your likelihood of going to court. Attorney’s will not

want to work with you and your reputation suffers. The attorney’s

already know who is on the fraud squad list and avoid them like the plague.

To sum up: Each CPT code gets billed

the same amount to everyone. What you accept for payment is up to you.

Hope this helps.

Dan , DC

Woodburn

danm@...

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Dr. Janet L Rueger

Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010

2:08 PM

'Walter Wiese'; 'joe

medlin'

Cc:

Subject: RE:

Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

Fees: I give a reasonable time of service discount for

payment at time of service. If it was legal to do so, I would like to

have a (cash / payment at time of service fee) and an insurance fee that

is considerably more. If we charge the same for insurance and for cash,

our cash patients are, in reality, paying more for the service they get.

We need more staff for insurance. We spend much more time on paperwork

with insurance, and, as we all know, the amount of paperwork differs between companies.

I would love to see us be able to charge a fee for our service and then the

appropriate paperwork fee. If we do no insurance, we have time to see

more patients, or time and energy for our families at the end of the day.

I’d love for us all to be united on this. I feel we would be wise

to unite and all of us NOT sell our souls to insurance companies so they will

“give” us their patients rather than allowing the chiropractor down

the street to see them. Fees – it seems to me it would be good if

we had a set fee for each code, that we all charged, and it’s a free

country so I guess if I want to charge $200. for a 98941 and someone wants to

pay me that, I have the right to do that?

Janet L Rueger, DC

Certified in

Craniopathy

149 Clear Creek Dr.,

Suite 105

Ashland, OR 97520

541-690-6799

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Walter Wiese

Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010

12:41 PM

joe medlin

Cc:

Subject: Re:

Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

Who made this

law, this insurance companies? Don't tell me that our Oregon Board

made it! Wow, how different from state to state.

From: joe medlin <spinetreeqwestoffice (DOT) net>

Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

, " Walter Wiese "

<docwiese7 >

Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your

honesty and i also believe we should all be on the same page Dr. Wiese.

Unfortunately in Oregon

we are supposedly forbidden to discuss our fees amongst

eachother by law. You believe that? It's probably why we're all over the

map.

ph Medlin

D.C.

Spine Tree Chiropractic

1607 NE Alberta St

PDX, OR 97211

503-788-6800

-----

Original Message -----

From: Walter Wiese

Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 11:46 AM

Subject: Re: Re:LMT's

sued by insurance companies

I

moved here from Nevada

over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing

different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call

this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big

trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices.

We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty

much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the

books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the

board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash

patient, how can that be?

Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would

like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what

Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash

for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge

$100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some

uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS

WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we

really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street

if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand

strong together not divided and battling each other.

That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after

being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD

and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for

months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change.

We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret

about how to get our paycheck other the next guy.

Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

All, This was not a 'law' made up by the OBCE. This is a racketeering law. The lawyers can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's state and federal. It has to do with 'price-fixing' similar to all industry regs. Don't kill the messenger. You can call a few friends and inquire about prices on one or two items or just ask what their 'fee schedule' looks like. What do they include on it? How do they lay out the format to better inform patients? Have an informal luncheon and compare services offered. Get an idea of which services are more often requested/ useful/ market research things.

Minga Guerrero DC

In a message dated 2/11/2010 1:13:31 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, docwiese7@... writes:

Who made this law, this insurance companies? Don't tell me that our Oregon Board made it! Wow, how different from state to state.

From: joe medlin <spinetreeqwestoffice (DOT) net>Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies , "Walter Wiese" <docwiese7 >Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

All, This was not a 'law' made up by the OBCE. This is a racketeering law. The lawyers can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's state and federal. It has to do with 'price-fixing' similar to all industry regs. Don't kill the messenger. You can call a few friends and inquire about prices on one or two items or just ask what their 'fee schedule' looks like. What do they include on it? How do they lay out the format to better inform patients? Have an informal luncheon and compare services offered. Get an idea of which services are more often requested/ useful/ market research things.

Minga Guerrero DC

In a message dated 2/11/2010 1:13:31 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, docwiese7@... writes:

Who made this law, this insurance companies? Don't tell me that our Oregon Board made it! Wow, how different from state to state.

From: joe medlin <spinetreeqwestoffice (DOT) net>Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies , "Walter Wiese" <docwiese7 >Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

Here here!Doc wiese D.C

From: joe medlin <spinetree@qwestoffi ce.net>

Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

@grou ps.com, "Walter Wiese"

<docwiese7 (DOT) com>

Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all

be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in

Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to

discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's

probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.

Spine Tree Chiropractic

1607 NE Alberta St

PDX, OR 97211

503-788-6800

Re: [From

OregonDCs] Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from

Nevada over a year ago and the rules

there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient

then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will

come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of

billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate

was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged.

Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it.

I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges

less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?

Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would

like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what

Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash

for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge

$100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some

uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS

WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we

really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street

if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand

strong together not divided and battling each other.

That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after

being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD

and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for

months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change.

We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret

about how to get our paycheck other the next guy.

Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

Here here!Doc wiese D.C

From: joe medlin <spinetree@qwestoffi ce.net>

Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

@grou ps.com, "Walter Wiese"

<docwiese7 (DOT) com>

Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all

be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in

Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to

discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's

probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.

Spine Tree Chiropractic

1607 NE Alberta St

PDX, OR 97211

503-788-6800

Re: [From

OregonDCs] Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from

Nevada over a year ago and the rules

there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient

then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will

come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of

billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate

was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged.

Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it.

I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges

less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?

Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would

like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what

Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash

for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge

$100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some

uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS

WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we

really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street

if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand

strong together not divided and battling each other.

That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after

being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD

and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for

months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change.

We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret

about how to get our paycheck other the next guy.

Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

Again, I believe that we should have one fee for all codes that we all share. A good reasonable, whether the insurance pays it or not. The dentist now are charging for each side of a tooth and for some reason they all are following suit. Their board I believe is setting prices and they do not care about what insurance pays. This way the patient can call around all they want, but they end up hearing the same prices. We as a group need to set prices for us and stand by them for the protection for each of us. This would be for insurance billing to cash for those that do not have insurance. WHY can this not be done!This way we can share with each other, why is the board not involved with this huge problem that is causing outsiders to pick us off one by one. Doc Wiese D.C --- On

Thu, 2/11/10, AboWoman@... <AboWoman@...> wrote:From: AboWoman@... <AboWoman@...>Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companiesdocwiese7@...Cc: Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 9:18 PM

All, This was not a 'law' made up by the OBCE. This is a racketeering law. The lawyers can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's state and federal. It has to do with 'price-fixing' similar to all industry regs. Don't kill the messenger. You can call a few friends and inquire about prices on one or two items or just ask what their 'fee schedule' looks like. What do they include on it? How do they lay out the format to better inform patients? Have an informal luncheon and compare services offered. Get an idea of which services are more often requested/ useful/ market research things.

Minga Guerrero DC

In a message dated 2/11/2010 1:13:31 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, docwiese7@... writes:

Who made this law, this insurance companies? Don't tell me that our Oregon Board made it! Wow, how different from state to state.

From: joe medlin <spinetree@qwestoffi ce.net>Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies@grou ps.com, "Walter Wiese" <docwiese7 (DOT) com>Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

Again, I believe that we should have one fee for all codes that we all share. A good reasonable, whether the insurance pays it or not. The dentist now are charging for each side of a tooth and for some reason they all are following suit. Their board I believe is setting prices and they do not care about what insurance pays. This way the patient can call around all they want, but they end up hearing the same prices. We as a group need to set prices for us and stand by them for the protection for each of us. This would be for insurance billing to cash for those that do not have insurance. WHY can this not be done!This way we can share with each other, why is the board not involved with this huge problem that is causing outsiders to pick us off one by one. Doc Wiese D.C --- On

Thu, 2/11/10, AboWoman@... <AboWoman@...> wrote:From: AboWoman@... <AboWoman@...>Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companiesdocwiese7@...Cc: Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 9:18 PM

All, This was not a 'law' made up by the OBCE. This is a racketeering law. The lawyers can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's state and federal. It has to do with 'price-fixing' similar to all industry regs. Don't kill the messenger. You can call a few friends and inquire about prices on one or two items or just ask what their 'fee schedule' looks like. What do they include on it? How do they lay out the format to better inform patients? Have an informal luncheon and compare services offered. Get an idea of which services are more often requested/ useful/ market research things.

Minga Guerrero DC

In a message dated 2/11/2010 1:13:31 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, docwiese7@... writes:

Who made this law, this insurance companies? Don't tell me that our Oregon Board made it! Wow, how different from state to state.

From: joe medlin <spinetree@qwestoffi ce.net>Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies@grou ps.com, "Walter Wiese" <docwiese7 (DOT) com>Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

Little bit more to add. If we were all uniform to the same prices and we shared what each insurance pays for these codes they could not be so apt to do what they do. They cannot pay one of us and then not another on the same code and price. They would not be so able to take us into some legal battle or delay. If we change something, code or price for the same procedure because it pay better we do it together. I have a list of every OR doc in this state. Once we had it very well organized we sent out a letter on prices and codes to all the docs that are not on the list and we gather names to which ones that have joined us until we are all on the same page. It will not matter whether it is in Portland in the most exclusive areas or the poorer places along the coast, the prices will stay the same. This way we

will beat them at their own game. Doc Wiese D.C

From: joe medlin <spinetree@qwestoffi ce.net>Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies@grou ps.com, "Walter Wiese" <docwiese7 (DOT) com>Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

Little bit more to add. If we were all uniform to the same prices and we shared what each insurance pays for these codes they could not be so apt to do what they do. They cannot pay one of us and then not another on the same code and price. They would not be so able to take us into some legal battle or delay. If we change something, code or price for the same procedure because it pay better we do it together. I have a list of every OR doc in this state. Once we had it very well organized we sent out a letter on prices and codes to all the docs that are not on the list and we gather names to which ones that have joined us until we are all on the same page. It will not matter whether it is in Portland in the most exclusive areas or the poorer places along the coast, the prices will stay the same. This way we

will beat them at their own game. Doc Wiese D.C

From: joe medlin <spinetree@qwestoffi ce.net>Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies@grou ps.com, "Walter Wiese" <docwiese7 (DOT) com>Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

That's a great idea and would be useful if each of us was the same.....however, we are unequally specialized, skilled and/or focused....which is where the need to have individual fees comes in. to 'send out a letter on prices and codes' would come under the umbrella of 'price fixing' and each of us would enjoy a visit fromt the Attorney General...very quickly!

logical idea but unrealistic.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com

From: docwiese7@...Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:39:31 -0800Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

Little bit more to add. If we were all uniform to the same prices and we shared what each insurance pays for these codes they could not be so apt to do what they do. They cannot pay one of us and then not another on the same code and price. They would not be so able to take us into some legal battle or delay. If we change something, code or price for the same procedure because it pay better we do it together. I have a list of every OR doc in this state. Once we had it very well organized we sent out a letter on prices and codes to all the docs that are not on the list and we gather names to which ones that have joined us until we are all on the same page. It will not matter whether it is in Portland in the most exclusive areas or the poorer places along the coast, the prices will stay the same. This way we will beat them at their own game. Doc Wiese D.C

From: joe medlin <spinetree@qwestoffi ce.net>Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies@grou ps.com, "Walter Wiese" <docwiese7 (DOT) com>Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Guest guest]

That's a great idea and would be useful if each of us was the same.....however, we are unequally specialized, skilled and/or focused....which is where the need to have individual fees comes in. to 'send out a letter on prices and codes' would come under the umbrella of 'price fixing' and each of us would enjoy a visit fromt the Attorney General...very quickly!

logical idea but unrealistic.

Sunny

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7CEugene, Oregon, 97401541- 654-0850; Fx; 541- 654-0834www.drsunnykierstyn.com

From: docwiese7@...Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:39:31 -0800Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

Little bit more to add. If we were all uniform to the same prices and we shared what each insurance pays for these codes they could not be so apt to do what they do. They cannot pay one of us and then not another on the same code and price. They would not be so able to take us into some legal battle or delay. If we change something, code or price for the same procedure because it pay better we do it together. I have a list of every OR doc in this state. Once we had it very well organized we sent out a letter on prices and codes to all the docs that are not on the list and we gather names to which ones that have joined us until we are all on the same page. It will not matter whether it is in Portland in the most exclusive areas or the poorer places along the coast, the prices will stay the same. This way we will beat them at their own game. Doc Wiese D.C

From: joe medlin <spinetree@qwestoffi ce.net>Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies@grou ps.com, "Walter Wiese" <docwiese7 (DOT) com>Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Guest guest]

“It will not matter

whether it is in Portland

in the most exclusive areas or the poorer places along the coast, the prices

will stay the same.” Unfortunately overhead is not the same between

theses areas. Where one may thrive the other may starve.

Ted Forcum,

DC, DACBSP

ACA Sports Council, President

'08 US Olympic

Sports Medicine Team Member

Back

In Motion Sports Injuries Clinic, LLC

11385 SW Scholls Ferry Road

Beaverton, Oregon 97008

503.524.9040

www.bimsportsinjuries.com

The information contained in this

electronic message may contain protected health information confidential under

applicable law, and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity

named above. If the recipient of this message is not the intended recipient,

you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copy or disclosure of this

communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication

in error, please notify Back In Motion Sports Injuries Clinic, LLC at 11385 SW Scholls Ferry Road, Beaverton, OR-97008.

and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or

distribution.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Walter Wiese

Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010

10:40 AM

Subject: Re:

Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

Little bit more to add. If we were all uniform

to the same prices and we shared what each insurance pays for these codes

they could not be so apt to do what they do. They cannot pay one of us

and then not another on the same code and price. They would not be so

able to take us into some legal battle or delay. If we change

something, code or price for the same procedure because it pay better we do

it together. I have a list of every OR doc in this state. Once we

had it very well organized we sent out a letter on prices and codes to all

the docs that are not on the list and we gather names to which ones that have

joined us until we are all on the same page. It will not matter

whether it is in Portland

in the most exclusive areas or the poorer places along the coast, the prices

will stay the same. This way we will beat them at their own

game.

Doc Wiese D.C

From: joe medlin <spinetree@qwestoffi ce.net>

Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

@grou ps.com, " Walter Wiese "

<docwiese7 (DOT) com>

Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should

all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to

discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's

probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.

Spine Tree Chiropractic

1607 NE Alberta St

PDX, OR 97211

503-788-6800

Re: [From

OregonDCs] Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules

there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash

patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the

board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very

scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the

going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all

charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we

still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every

doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how

can that be?

Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I

would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better

yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether

insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra

therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or

cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be

charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are

worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services

away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt

to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and

battling each other.

That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after

being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did

DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked

for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will

change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are

so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy.

Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

“It will not matter

whether it is in Portland

in the most exclusive areas or the poorer places along the coast, the prices

will stay the same.” Unfortunately overhead is not the same between

theses areas. Where one may thrive the other may starve.

Ted Forcum,

DC, DACBSP

ACA Sports Council, President

'08 US Olympic

Sports Medicine Team Member

Back

In Motion Sports Injuries Clinic, LLC

11385 SW Scholls Ferry Road

Beaverton, Oregon 97008

503.524.9040

www.bimsportsinjuries.com

The information contained in this

electronic message may contain protected health information confidential under

applicable law, and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity

named above. If the recipient of this message is not the intended recipient,

you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copy or disclosure of this

communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication

in error, please notify Back In Motion Sports Injuries Clinic, LLC at 11385 SW Scholls Ferry Road, Beaverton, OR-97008.

and purge the communication immediately without making any copy or

distribution.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Walter Wiese

Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010

10:40 AM

Subject: Re:

Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

Little bit more to add. If we were all uniform

to the same prices and we shared what each insurance pays for these codes

they could not be so apt to do what they do. They cannot pay one of us

and then not another on the same code and price. They would not be so

able to take us into some legal battle or delay. If we change

something, code or price for the same procedure because it pay better we do

it together. I have a list of every OR doc in this state. Once we

had it very well organized we sent out a letter on prices and codes to all

the docs that are not on the list and we gather names to which ones that have

joined us until we are all on the same page. It will not matter

whether it is in Portland

in the most exclusive areas or the poorer places along the coast, the prices

will stay the same. This way we will beat them at their own

game.

Doc Wiese D.C

From: joe medlin <spinetree@qwestoffi ce.net>

Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

@grou ps.com, " Walter Wiese "

<docwiese7 (DOT) com>

Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should

all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to

discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's

probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.

Spine Tree Chiropractic

1607 NE Alberta St

PDX, OR 97211

503-788-6800

Re: [From

OregonDCs] Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules

there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash

patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the

board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very

scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the

going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all

charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we

still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every

doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how

can that be?

Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I

would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better

yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether

insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra

therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or

cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be

charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are

worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services

away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt

to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and

battling each other.

That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after

being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did

DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked

for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will

change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are

so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy.

Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

Also, what one doc does in her/his office--quick in and out with adjustments only--compared to what another doc does in her/his office--30-40 minutes, mostly hands on, is entirely different and should not be compensated at the same rate. Simply doesn't make sense.

IMHO

Ann DC

[Guest guest]

Also, what one doc does in her/his office--quick in and out with adjustments only--compared to what another doc does in her/his office--30-40 minutes, mostly hands on, is entirely different and should not be compensated at the same rate. Simply doesn't make sense.

IMHO

Ann DC

[Guest guest]

What you are suggesting is exactly what anti trust laws prohibit. Healthcare providers cannot collectively bargain ( as a group of individual providers, they can if they are collectively employed by a single employer). The purpose of this was to prevent healthcare providers from driving up healthcare costs.These are Federal Regulations and they are enforced by the Federal Trade Commission. If you have the time and desire, look up their Web Site and peruse Anti-trust Statutes.Take a look at what happened to the Wisconsin Chiropractic Association. Wisconsin Chiropractic Association and Its Director Agree to Settle FTC Charges of Price-Fixing;We are, for all practical purposes, competitors with one another, and, as such, we are restricted and forbidden from discussing fees in public, from encouraging each other to charge more for our services, and from boycotting any company or discouraging another competitor from participating in their obviously stupid and Draconian contracts.Unfortunatly the only way out of this for us is legislation- Vern?

R. Swanson DC CCEP2394 31st AvenueSan Francisco, CA 94116(v)415.566.7134www.ParksideChiro.comwww.drscottswanson.comTwitter: @askdrscottFacebook.com/ParksideChiropractic

On Feb 12, 2010, at 10:39 AM, Walter Wiese wrote:

Little bit more to add. If we were all uniform to the same prices and we shared what each insurance pays for these codes they could not be so apt to do what they do. They cannot pay one of us and then not another on the same code and price. They would not be so able to take us into some legal battle or delay. If we change something, code or price for the same procedure because it pay better we do it together. I have a list of every OR doc in this state. Once we had it very well organized we sent out a letter on prices and codes to all the docs that are not on the list and we gather names to which ones that have joined us until we are all on the same page. It will not matter whether it is in Portland in the most exclusive areas or the poorer places along the coast, the prices will stay the same. This way we

will beat them at their own game. Doc Wiese D.C

From: joe medlin <spinetree@qwestoffi ce.net>Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies@grou ps.com, "Walter Wiese" <docwiese7 (DOT) com>Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

What you are suggesting is exactly what anti trust laws prohibit. Healthcare providers cannot collectively bargain ( as a group of individual providers, they can if they are collectively employed by a single employer). The purpose of this was to prevent healthcare providers from driving up healthcare costs.These are Federal Regulations and they are enforced by the Federal Trade Commission. If you have the time and desire, look up their Web Site and peruse Anti-trust Statutes.Take a look at what happened to the Wisconsin Chiropractic Association. Wisconsin Chiropractic Association and Its Director Agree to Settle FTC Charges of Price-Fixing;We are, for all practical purposes, competitors with one another, and, as such, we are restricted and forbidden from discussing fees in public, from encouraging each other to charge more for our services, and from boycotting any company or discouraging another competitor from participating in their obviously stupid and Draconian contracts.Unfortunatly the only way out of this for us is legislation- Vern?

R. Swanson DC CCEP2394 31st AvenueSan Francisco, CA 94116(v)415.566.7134www.ParksideChiro.comwww.drscottswanson.comTwitter: @askdrscottFacebook.com/ParksideChiropractic

On Feb 12, 2010, at 10:39 AM, Walter Wiese wrote:

Little bit more to add. If we were all uniform to the same prices and we shared what each insurance pays for these codes they could not be so apt to do what they do. They cannot pay one of us and then not another on the same code and price. They would not be so able to take us into some legal battle or delay. If we change something, code or price for the same procedure because it pay better we do it together. I have a list of every OR doc in this state. Once we had it very well organized we sent out a letter on prices and codes to all the docs that are not on the list and we gather names to which ones that have joined us until we are all on the same page. It will not matter whether it is in Portland in the most exclusive areas or the poorer places along the coast, the prices will stay the same. This way we

will beat them at their own game. Doc Wiese D.C

From: joe medlin <spinetree@qwestoffi ce.net>Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies@grou ps.com, "Walter Wiese" <docwiese7 (DOT) com>Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C

[Guest guest]

What you are suggesting is exactly what anti trust laws prohibit. Healthcare providers cannot collectively bargain ( as a group of individual providers, they can if they are collectively employed by a single employer). The purpose of this was to prevent healthcare providers from driving up healthcare costs.These are Federal Regulations and they are enforced by the Federal Trade Commission. If you have the time and desire, look up their Web Site and peruse Anti-trust Statutes.Take a look at what happened to the Wisconsin Chiropractic Association. Wisconsin Chiropractic Association and Its Director Agree to Settle FTC Charges of Price-Fixing;We are, for all practical purposes, competitors with one another, and, as such, we are restricted and forbidden from discussing fees in public, from encouraging each other to charge more for our services, and from boycotting any company or discouraging another competitor from participating in their obviously stupid and Draconian contracts.Unfortunatly the only way out of this for us is legislation- Vern?

R. Swanson DC CCEP2394 31st AvenueSan Francisco, CA 94116(v)415.566.7134www.ParksideChiro.comwww.drscottswanson.comTwitter: @askdrscottFacebook.com/ParksideChiropractic

On Feb 12, 2010, at 10:39 AM, Walter Wiese wrote:

Little bit more to add. If we were all uniform to the same prices and we shared what each insurance pays for these codes they could not be so apt to do what they do. They cannot pay one of us and then not another on the same code and price. They would not be so able to take us into some legal battle or delay. If we change something, code or price for the same procedure because it pay better we do it together. I have a list of every OR doc in this state. Once we had it very well organized we sent out a letter on prices and codes to all the docs that are not on the list and we gather names to which ones that have joined us until we are all on the same page. It will not matter whether it is in Portland in the most exclusive areas or the poorer places along the coast, the prices will stay the same. This way we

will beat them at their own game. Doc Wiese D.C

From: joe medlin <spinetree@qwestoffi ce.net>Subject: Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies@grou ps.com, "Walter Wiese" <docwiese7 (DOT) com>Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 12:01 PM

I love your honesty and i also believe we should all be on the same page Dr. Wiese. Unfortunately in Oregon we are supposedly forbidden to discuss our fees amongst eachother by law. You believe that? It's probably why we're all over the map.

ph Medlin D.C.Spine Tree Chiropractic1607 NE Alberta StPDX, OR 97211503-788-6800

Re: Re:LMT's sued by insurance companies

I moved here from Nevada over a year ago and the rules there is if they catch a chiro billing different amounts from cash patient then an insurance patient they call this insurance fraud and the board will come in and we were in big trouble. We all were very scared of billing different prices. We also checked to see what the going rate was in the Reno Area and pretty much that was what we all charged. Even though there is no law by the books on charges we still did it. I come here and it is all over the board. Plus every doc I know charges less for their office visit for a cash patient, how can that be?Could a few of you out there put your charges for the going rates, I would like to see how everyone feels about what they are worth or better yet what Chiropractic is worth! I charge $60 whether insurance or cash for my adjustments, this does not count any extra therapy. I charge $100 for my exams whether insurance or cash. Should we not have some uniform idea to what we all should be charging for WHAT CHIROPRACTIC IS WORTH and not what we think we are worth over the next guy. Do we really have to give our services away to beat out the chiro down the street if we are worth a bit of salt to our profession. We should stand strong together not divided and battling each other. That my piece of this miserable battle we have in this profession after being in practice 26 years seeing the same old problems. What did DD and BJ feel Chiropractic was worth, they were so busy they were booked for months. I know I am just blowing in the wind for nothing will change. We don't even share with other doctors our prices, we are so secret about how to get our paycheck other the next guy. Doc Wiese D.C