body for life

April 5, 2000

In a message dated 04/05/2000 3:46:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

tinkerdove@... writes:

<< He says if you're not happy with the over

all shape of your body then weight training is the key.

PLEASE KNOW THAT I AM NOT TALKING AGAINST TAEBO, I THINK IT'S

WONDERFUL!! >>

although I do upper body weight training,

I can tell my butt and thighs are coming along quite well with Tae-Bo

Eventually, once my upper body muscle mass gets to where it should be,

I'll be cutting back on the weight training unless I see it start to dwindle

Barb

who has a few new cross training weight tapes

November 13, 2000

Cull wrote:

>

> After being a major lurker of this list, I would like to ask a question

> about the Body Of Life Competition (See http://www.bodyforlife.com )

>

> What do people think about:

>

> a. The idea of the competition (on the face value of people trying to

> improve themselves) ?

I think the " idea " of the competition is great. However, it's too easy

for someone already in great shape to win. As a joke, a guy on MFW made

a 2 minute transformation page.

http://members.tripod.com/Dramo13/beforeafter/davin/feb62kpics.html

The photos are not retouched and show what just a little bit of prep can

achieve. Davin didn't go to any big trouble in these pictures, he just

took some unflexed pictures sticking his stomach out and slouching and

then took pictures smiling and flexing. If you're in great shape, you

can add a few pounds in a mass phase, take a picture that looks

horrible, then lose a few pounds of fat and take a picture with better

lighting and actually flex in the poses. The difference is pretty

remarkable.

I haven't spent much time looking at the competitors the past couple of

years, but in the beginning it was pretty obvious that the winners

already had some mass and then dropped bodyfat. For an example of what

12 weeks of hard dieting can do, check out one of Whyte's

clients, Ian :

http://www.hardtrainer.com/Ianwatson.htm

This guy didn't have much muscle to begin with and doesn't have much

muscle afterwards. This is just 12 weeks of hard dieting... and getting

a tan... and flexing.

>

> b. The Marketing ideals used in the campaign ?

Uh. It's marketing. What more can you say?

>

> c. Does it work or is it marketing hype?

They want to sell you supplements. You don't need them to get those

results.

>

> I would like to also hear any personal experiences people have had, with

> regards to this or any other similar " improvement " schemes.

The Body For Life is a repackaging of the old Cybergenics strategy.

Although I've heard a lot about the program, I haven't read the book.

From what I've heard, the routine is your basic " hardgainer " regimen

with some dieting thrown in. Pretty standard stuff but nothing

revolutionary.

If being in the competition motivates you (or anyone else) to get into

the gym and make a difference in their lives, great. But it IS just a

ploy to get you to buy supplements you don't need.

At least. That's my opinion. YMMV.

November 14, 2000

> From: <watson@...>

>

> I think the " idea " of the competition is great. However, it's too easy

> for someone already in great shape to win. As a joke, a guy on MFW made

> a 2 minute transformation page.

>

> http://members.tripod.com/Dramo13/beforeafter/davin/feb62kpics.html

>

> The photos are not retouched and show what just a little bit of prep can

> achieve. Davin didn't go to any big trouble in these pictures, he just

> took some unflexed pictures sticking his stomach out and slouching and

> then took pictures smiling and flexing. If you're in great shape, you

> can add a few pounds in a mass phase, take a picture that looks

> horrible, then lose a few pounds of fat and take a picture with better

> lighting and actually flex in the poses. The difference is pretty

> remarkable.

I looked at these pictures, and there is a difference, but I wouldn't call

it remarkable. The BFL pics show much greater changes than this...changes

that you simply cannot fake. For example, go to http://www.bodyforlife2.com

This is a site that is not affiliated with EAS, BFL, or Bill in any

way. It is a website run by someone who did the program and had tremendous

success. Look at some of the changes on this site. With some of these

people these are not changes you can fake with a 2-min transformation. Go

pick up the latest issue of Muscle media and look at some of the

before/afters of recent competitors. One competitor is a guy with cerebral

palsy who made an oustanding change...and there is no way it could have been

faked in a 2-min transformation. There are hundreds of BFL before/after

pics in Muscle Media and on the Internet. It's pretty obvious to me that

many of them are not faked transformations.

> I haven't spent much time looking at the competitors the past couple of

> years, but in the beginning it was pretty obvious that the winners

> already had some mass and then dropped bodyfat.

I wouldn't say so. I think it was pretty obvious that Ellis, Jeff

Seidman, and Abb Ansley gained muscle mass...especially , who was

already lean and skinny and didn't have much body fat to lose.

> > c. Does it work or is it marketing hype?

>

> They want to sell you supplements. You don't need them to get those

> results.

First, you do not have to do supplements to do the BFL program. Now, to do

the competition, yes, you are required to take 1 EAS supplement during the

course of the program. So what? EAS now sells multivitamins so you could

take their cheapest multivitamin to fulfill this requirement.

If you read the BFL book, Bill mentions supplements like on 2 or 3

pages out of the entire book...so he doesn't talk about them much. I would

hardly call this a program that solely trying to sell you supplements.

> The Body For Life is a repackaging of the old Cybergenics strategy.

Not quite. When I first delved into weight training I tried out the

Cybergenics strategy. Severe overtraining (the workouts sessions took at

least 2 hours), no cardio, different diet, useless chromium and BCAA

supplements. BFL is quite a bit different. Short, intense workouts, 5-6

small meals a day, equal portions of protein and carbs, don't have to buy

supplements unless you do the competition...and even then they are better

supplements than what Cybergenics offered.

> >From what I've heard, the routine is your basic " hardgainer " regimen

> with some dieting thrown in. Pretty standard stuff but nothing

> revolutionary.

I own the book. Bill never tries to make claims that it is something

revolutionary. What he has done is he has taken what is basically a

precontest bodybuilding routine and packaged it for the layperson. And he

has done an extremely excellent job. And what I like about his book is that

he doesn't blow smoke up your butt and try to tell you that it's easy,

versus all of these other fitness gadgets and programs that try to tell you

you don't have to work hard. Bill tells you that you need to work extremely

hard. While the program itself is nothing revolutionary, the way Bill has

packaged and presented it is. He makes it easy for the average layperson to

understand, and he also gets people to believe in themselves that they can

really achieve these things and get them motivated to make positive changes.

BFL really is a lot more than just a program for changing your body. It

teaches discipline, self-confidence, organization, and all kinds of other

things. While I have never agreed with everything Bill has said or done in

the past, Bill's book really has made a positive impact on a number of

people's lives, and I commend him for it. He has turned many people on to

the bodybuilding and fitness lifestyle. He has helped more people make

positive changes in their lives than you or I have. A lot of people are so

quick to criticize Bill and look for every negative thing they can find, but

my question to them is: Bill has helped hundreds if not thousands of

people...how many people have you helped? Go to http://www.bodyforlife.com

and read their guestbook. Hundreds of people sign the guestbook *every*

single day!!! Not just a few people...hundreds! The guestbook there is

over 25,000 pages long! And I have read through some of the comments and

they are almost all positive...numerous people report the great results they

have been getting with Bill's program...people improving their health and

their lives. Go to Amazon.com and read the book reviews there...again, they

are almost all positive. And when you have independent sites like the body

for life 2 website also showing positive results, as well these Body For

Life support groups that I've been hearing about now, it's obvious that Bill

has done something very positive for many people.

> If being in the competition motivates you (or anyone else) to get into

> the gym and make a difference in their lives, great. But it IS just a

> ploy to get you to buy supplements you don't need.

Again, I would disagree here. You only need to buy the supplements if you

enter the competition. And even then you only need to use one. Heck, I can

get a box of Myoplex from enutrition.com for $35, which works out to be

about $1.75 a packet. That is cheaper than compared to what it would cost

me to buy a lean steak and potato, and the prep time is much shorter. If

someone wants to save money on the competition they can simply buy one of

EAS's multivitamins, which is good for people to take anyway. It's not that

hard.

People will criticize Bill with his program and try to say he is just trying

to make money. First, he doesn't earn a dime from the sales of his

book...all royalties go to the Make a Wish Foundation. Second, did anyone

ever stop to think that maybe Bill simply believes in the supplements he

recommends? Now, whether they are helpful or not is a different story.

They might all be worthless. But that is not the issue here. If someone

wholeheartedly believes in something, they are going to recommend that other

people do it, even if what they believe in might not be true.

For example, let's say I'm a personal trainer. Now, I'm going to charge

people for my services, will I not? So how come people don't accuse me of,

" Well, he's just trying to make a buck, that's all. " ??? Just because I

charge people for my services doesn't mean I'm not interested in helping

them. And I am going to market myself. I fully believe in what I am doing.

Again, that doesn't mean my training programs are the best...but I

personally believe they are...and I am going to market them that way...and I

am going to recommend that everyone does my program if I truly believe that

it's going to help people.

Maybe the same is true for Bill . I'm sure the guy himself uses

many supplements, and he uses them because he believes they work. And if he

believes they work, he is going to recommend that other people take them.

That doesn't mean he's trying to rip people off. Now, maybe the supplements

don't work at all. But Bill doesn't believe that and he's not going to tell

other people they don't work if he believes they do. And evidence seems to

suggest that I may be right. When Bill was CEO at EAS, EAS did not offer

very many supplements. Creatine, HMB, Myoplex, and a few others. One thing

they did not offer was ephedrine...and they didn't offer it because I know

that Bill was not much of a fan of ephedrine. Well, now Bill steps down,

and someone else is in charge. And what does EAS do? They come out with an

ephedrine supplement. Actually, the number of supplements they offer has

exploded since Bill stepped down...some that I never thought EAS would sell,

like the effervescent creatine crap. IMO EAS has gotten much worse as a

supplement company since Bill stepped down.

Again, I don't agree with everything Bill has said or done in the past...but

his BFL program is great and has helped a lot of people transform not only

their bodies but their attitudes and lives.

Krieger

Graduate student, exercise science

Washington State University

November 14, 2000

Krieger wrote:

>

> > From: <watson@...>

> >

> > I think the " idea " of the competition is great. However, it's too easy

> > for someone already in great shape to win. As a joke, a guy on MFW made

> > a 2 minute transformation page.

> >

> > http://members.tripod.com/Dramo13/beforeafter/davin/feb62kpics.html

> >

> > The photos are not retouched and show what just a little bit of prep can

> > achieve. Davin didn't go to any big trouble in these pictures, he just

> > took some unflexed pictures sticking his stomach out and slouching and

> > then took pictures smiling and flexing. If you're in great shape, you

> > can add a few pounds in a mass phase, take a picture that looks

> > horrible, then lose a few pounds of fat and take a picture with better

> > lighting and actually flex in the poses. The difference is pretty

> > remarkable.

>

> I looked at these pictures, and there is a difference, but I wouldn't call

> it remarkable. The BFL pics show much greater changes than this...changes

> that you simply cannot fake.

Well, duh.

My point is that to make this " transformation " , you can make what look

to be incredible gains that really aren't that incredible.

> For example, go to http://www.bodyforlife2.com

OK. I've been there.

> This is a site that is not affiliated with EAS, BFL, or Bill in any

> way. It is a website run by someone who did the program and had tremendous

> success. Look at some of the changes on this site. With some of these

> people these are not changes you can fake with a 2-min transformation. Go

> pick up the latest issue of Muscle media and look at some of the

> before/afters of recent competitors. One competitor is a guy with cerebral

> palsy who made an oustanding change...and there is no way it could have been

> faked in a 2-min transformation. There are hundreds of BFL before/after

> pics in Muscle Media and on the Internet. It's pretty obvious to me that

> many of them are not faked transformations.

ly, I've looked at some of these pictures and Davin's and Ian's

transformations are more impressive than any of the ones I looked at.

The people I looked at looked like they've just shed a few pounds.

Because of the way the contest is structured, people try to look as bad

as possible in the before pictures and then as good as possible in the

after pictures. In the before picture, slouch, frown, don't flex your

muscles, use a flash camera, etc. In the after pictures, get a tan, oil

up, flex your muscles, smile, get pictures done with a better

camera/photographer, etc.

>

> > I haven't spent much time looking at the competitors the past couple of

> > years, but in the beginning it was pretty obvious that the winners

> > already had some mass and then dropped bodyfat.

>

> I wouldn't say so. I think it was pretty obvious that Ellis, Jeff

> Seidman, and Abb Ansley gained muscle mass...especially , who was

> already lean and skinny and didn't have much body fat to lose.

I couldn't find those guys anywhere on the site or the body for life

site.

>

> > > c. Does it work or is it marketing hype?

> >

> > They want to sell you supplements. You don't need them to get those

> > results.

>

> First, you do not have to do supplements to do the BFL program. Now, to do

> the competition, yes, you are required to take 1 EAS supplement during the

> course of the program. So what? EAS now sells multivitamins so you could

> take their cheapest multivitamin to fulfill this requirement.

Ha ha ha.

That's funny. The whole purpose of the competition is to sell

supplements. It's a great gimmick, people buy into the hype. I've

talked to many newbies on MFW who really think they need to buy a whole

lot of EAS supplements to participate at all. I've talked to

participants who think that the supplements are what's going to make the

transformation.

If this gimmick helps some people change their lives and start working

out. Great. But it's still a marketing ploy to sell supplements.

>

> If you read the BFL book, Bill mentions supplements like on 2 or 3

> pages out of the entire book...so he doesn't talk about them much. I would

> hardly call this a program that solely trying to sell you supplements.

OK. Selling supplements and selling books.

Every book sold increases his fame and sells more supplements. Genius.

>

> > The Body For Life is a repackaging of the old Cybergenics strategy.

>

> Not quite. When I first delved into weight training I tried out the

> Cybergenics strategy. Severe overtraining (the workouts sessions took at

> least 2 hours), no cardio, different diet, useless chromium and BCAA

> supplements. BFL is quite a bit different. Short, intense workouts, 5-6

> small meals a day, equal portions of protein and carbs, don't have to buy

> supplements unless you do the competition...and even then they are better

> supplements than what Cybergenics offered.

I wasn't talking about the routine, I was talking about the marketing

strategy, the competition itself. There was actually a company that did

the same thing prior to Cybergenics but I can't recall the name of it.

>

> > >From what I've heard, the routine is your basic " hardgainer " regimen

> > with some dieting thrown in. Pretty standard stuff but nothing

> > revolutionary.

>

> I own the book. Bill never tries to make claims that it is something

> revolutionary. What he has done is he has taken what is basically a

> precontest bodybuilding routine and packaged it for the layperson. And he

> has done an extremely excellent job. And what I like about his book is that

> he doesn't blow smoke up your butt and try to tell you that it's easy,

> versus all of these other fitness gadgets and programs that try to tell you

> you don't have to work hard. Bill tells you that you need to work extremely

> hard. While the program itself is nothing revolutionary, the way Bill has

> packaged and presented it is. He makes it easy for the average layperson to

> understand, and he also gets people to believe in themselves that they can

> really achieve these things and get them motivated to make positive changes.

> BFL really is a lot more than just a program for changing your body. It

> teaches discipline, self-confidence, organization, and all kinds of other

> things. While I have never agreed with everything Bill has said or done in

> the past, Bill's book really has made a positive impact on a number of

> people's lives, and I commend him for it. He has turned many people on to

> the bodybuilding and fitness lifestyle. He has helped more people make

> positive changes in their lives than you or I have. A lot of people are so

> quick to criticize Bill and look for every negative thing they can find, but

> my question to them is: Bill has helped hundreds if not thousands of

> people...how many people have you helped? Go to http://www.bodyforlife.com

> and read their guestbook. Hundreds of people sign the guestbook *every*

> single day!!! Not just a few people...hundreds! The guestbook there is

> over 25,000 pages long! And I have read through some of the comments and

> they are almost all positive...numerous people report the great results they

> have been getting with Bill's program...people improving their health and

> their lives. Go to Amazon.com and read the book reviews there...again, they

> are almost all positive. And when you have independent sites like the body

> for life 2 website also showing positive results, as well these Body For

> Life support groups that I've been hearing about now, it's obvious that Bill

> has done something very positive for many people.

Dude. It's still a gimmick to sell stuff. If you think it's anything

other than that, you're naive. Like I said before, there are some

people that are going to get into weightlifting and change their lives

because of this. That's great. But most of the people who read the

book or sign up for the competition try some of the stuff for a couple

of weeks, sign the guest book and talk about what a great effect it has

on their lives, and then go back to what they were doing before they

read the book.

I was ready to sign up for Cybergenics way back in the day. I bought

the stuff and I read the routine and thought it was great... but I

realized that I didn't have access to the equipment needed and I didn't

have a partner to spot me for the negatives that they were pushing, so I

returned it and got my money back.

>

> > If being in the competition motivates you (or anyone else) to get into

> > the gym and make a difference in their lives, great. But it IS just a

> > ploy to get you to buy supplements you don't need.

>

> Again, I would disagree here. You only need to buy the supplements if you

> enter the competition. And even then you only need to use one. Heck, I can

> get a box of Myoplex from enutrition.com for $35, which works out to be

> about $1.75 a packet. That is cheaper than compared to what it would cost

> me to buy a lean steak and potato, and the prep time is much shorter. If

> someone wants to save money on the competition they can simply buy one of

> EAS's multivitamins, which is good for people to take anyway. It's not that

> hard.

How many people who enter the competition buy just one multivitamin from

EAS?

Most people who start a program like that are going to stock up on every

sort of supplement they can find. And if it's a supplement from the guy

whose program their following, well, those supplements HAVE to be better

than anyone else's. Right?

>

> People will criticize Bill with his program and try to say he is just trying

> to make money.

Dude. That's his JOB. Of course he's just trying to make money. If he

wasn't just trying to make money he'd be an idiot and I don't think he's

an idiot.

> First, he doesn't earn a dime from the sales of his

> book...all royalties go to the Make a Wish Foundation.

Genius publicity.

> Second, did anyone

> ever stop to think that maybe Bill simply believes in the supplements he

> recommends? Now, whether they are helpful or not is a different story.

> They might all be worthless. But that is not the issue here. If someone

> wholeheartedly believes in something, they are going to recommend that other

> people do it, even if what they believe in might not be true.

HMB feels like Deca? Bill saw an opportunity to make money and he

grabbed it. He's done a masterful job. But his job is selling

supplements.

>

> For example, let's say I'm a personal trainer. Now, I'm going to charge

> people for my services, will I not? So how come people don't accuse me of,

> " Well, he's just trying to make a buck, that's all. " ??? Just because I

> charge people for my services doesn't mean I'm not interested in helping

> them. And I am going to market myself. I fully believe in what I am doing.

> Again, that doesn't mean my training programs are the best...but I

> personally believe they are...and I am going to market them that way...and I

> am going to recommend that everyone does my program if I truly believe that

> it's going to help people.

Waittasecond, . I'm not saying that the Body For Life program is

" wrong. " I'm just saying that it's a marketing gimmick that is geared

towards newbie lifters but the competition will almost always be won by

people who already have muscle and just need some cutting.

I was not trying to demonize Bill. I know some people who like and

respect him and I know some people who hate his guts. I don't

personally know him so I reserve judgment until that time.

>

> Maybe the same is true for Bill . I'm sure the guy himself uses

> many supplements, and he uses them because he believes they work. And if he

> believes they work, he is going to recommend that other people take them.

> That doesn't mean he's trying to rip people off.

I'm not saying that he's trying to rip people off. I'm saying that he's

trying to sell people supplements. They probably don't NEED those

supplements but his job is to sell people supplements. The book, the

magazine and the contest help him sell more supplements.

> Now, maybe the supplements

> don't work at all. But Bill doesn't believe that and he's not going to tell

> other people they don't work if he believes they do. And evidence seems to

> suggest that I may be right. When Bill was CEO at EAS, EAS did not offer

> very many supplements. Creatine, HMB, Myoplex, and a few others. One thing

> they did not offer was ephedrine...and they didn't offer it because I know

> that Bill was not much of a fan of ephedrine. Well, now Bill steps down,

> and someone else is in charge. And what does EAS do? They come out with an

> ephedrine supplement. Actually, the number of supplements they offer has

> exploded since Bill stepped down...some that I never thought EAS would sell,

> like the effervescent creatine crap. IMO EAS has gotten much worse as a

> supplement company since Bill stepped down.

I don't keep track of these things.

>

> Again, I don't agree with everything Bill has said or done in the past...but

> his BFL program is great and has helped a lot of people transform not only

> their bodies but their attitudes and lives.

Read my post again. As I said there, I think the idea of the

competition is great. I think it's a great motivating tool for many

people. Some of those people will give it up pretty quickly but a few

people will keep lifting and get in great shape. However, the people

who will be in the best position to win the contest are the people who

were in great shape a few years ago and added some fat. The combination

of muscle memory, dieting, and carefully orchestrating the before and

after shots can make some of the results look almost steroidal.

However, the regular Joe Blow on the street is not going to see those

results.

The bottom line is that this is a competition being held by a company

whose job is to sell supplements. This competition is a multi-tiered

marketing strategy designed to sell more supplements. I personally

don't think there's anything wrong with that.

November 15, 2000

From: " Krieger " <jkrieger@...>

>First, you do not have to do supplements to do the BFL program......

>If you read the BFL book, Bill mentions supplements like on 2 or 3

>pages out of the entire book...so he doesn't talk about them much. I would

>hardly call this a program that solely trying to sell you supplements.

Alden:

, , . May I quote from Bill P. himself?

" However, if you are deter-mined to make a remarkable transformation in only

12 weeks, you are going to need to nourish your body, daily,

with quality protein, carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals, and other

important micronutrients your body needs to recover from your intense

exercise sessions, as well as provide you with the balanced energy you need

to stay healthy and strong. Achieving that goal without supplementation is

very difficult, especially if you do not have a lot

of extra time to work with. "

" Virtually every competitor who successfully completed the Challenge Program

last year relied on EAS supplements to help them succeed. The most frequently

used EAS product, and the one I recommend to everyone, is called Myoplex. "

" In addition to Myoplex, I recommend the following EAS supplements:

BetaGen—a unique blend of creatine and HMB (which have both been shown in

numerous scientific studies to increase strength, muscle bioenergetics, and

recovery); Phosphagen HP—the high-performance creatine supplement (scientific

studies show it produces up to 160% greater results than the original creatine

formula); and Phen-Free—a dietary supplement formula developed by EAS

researchers to support fat loss. (For more information about EAS supplements,

please call the number below or visit www.eas.com.) "

:

>don't have to buy supplements unless you do the competition

Alden:

Does this mean that the supplements are necessary and inevitable if you wish

to have a competitve body for the competition and for " life " ? Do you believe

that is true?

>I own the book. Bill never tries to make claims that it is something

>revolutionary. What he has done is he has taken what is basically a

>precontest bodybuilding routine and packaged it for the layperson.

And therein lies the rub. I have many adult clients who have come to me with

BFL info. It's not all bad and not all good. The emphasis is too often on

how you look not how healthy you are. To quote again:

" Champions are judged on who has made the most improvement in their category

over the 12-week Challenge period and who can best express how the

transformation

and building a better body has changed their life for the better. "

I would like to think real life champions would be judged on healthy

lifestyles and the ability to continue on a healthy regime.......for life.

Joe Alden

Atlanta USA

November 15, 2000

From: <watson@...>

> ly, I've looked at some of these pictures and Davin's and Ian's

> transformations are more impressive than any of the ones I looked at.

> The people I looked at looked like they've just shed a few pounds.

What is your definition of " a few pounds " ?

Cheryl Cundick lost 24 lbs of body fat

http://www.bodyforlife2.com/women/cheryl_cundick/cheryl_cundick.htm

I would hardly call that a few pounds.

Lynn Cyr lost 12 lbs of body fat.

http://www.bodyforlife2.com/women/lynn_cyr/lynn_cyr_front_before_after.jpg

The webmaster gained 17 lbs of lean body mass.

http://www.bodyforlife2.com/bobstory.htm

Ken Vetter lost 22 lbs of body fat

http://www.bodyforlife2.com/men/ken_vetter/ken_vetter.htm

There are more examples. Some of these people give their numbers along with

their pictures. Assuming that they are telling the truth, then the numbers

are showing more than " a few pounds. " And there are other things that can't

be faked. For example, from a side pose, someone can fake a decrease in

waist size by simply tightening their abs in the " after " and sticking their

gut out in the " before. " But from the front pose, this doesn't make your

waist look any smaller. You can't fake or enhance decreases in waist size

from the front or back views. Also, for females, you can't fake loss of

body fat from the thighs and buttocks.

> Because of the way the contest is structured, people try to look as bad

> as possible in the before pictures and then as good as possible in the

> after pictures. In the before picture, slouch, frown, don't flex your

> muscles, use a flash camera, etc. In the after pictures, get a tan, oil

> up, flex your muscles, smile, get pictures done with a better

> camera/photographer, etc.

So what? I actually know that Bill recommends you do these things.

If I was going to get my college graduation photo taken, would I walk in

there having just got out of bed or am I going to present myself the

absolute best way that I can? Of course I would do the latter. And it

would be no different for my " after " pic. I am going to present myself the

best way that I can. I don't see anything wrong with that. Yes, it makes

the transformations look more dramatic. But if that encourages other people

to take up the program and get involved in the bodybuilding/fitness

lifestyle, then that is a good thing.

> > I wouldn't say so. I think it was pretty obvious that Ellis,

> >Jeff Seidman, and Abb Ansley gained muscle mass...especially , who was

> > already lean and skinny and didn't have much body fat to lose.

>

> I couldn't find those guys anywhere on the site or the body for life

> site.

These are three of the guys from the first contest. And they are in the

Body of Work video. And they are also on the BFL advertisements that you

see in Muscle Media and at health food stores.

> > If you read the BFL book, Bill mentions supplements like on 2

> >or 3 pages out of the entire book...so he doesn't talk about them much. I

> >would hardly call this a program that solely trying to sell you supplements.

> OK. Selling supplements and selling books.

> Every book sold increases his fame and sells more supplements. Genius.

And every book sold benefits a child who will never be able to experience

many of the things you or I take for granted. Yes, I would call that

genius. It seems to me you want to point out every negative thing that you

can. I think you've been hanging out on MFW too long. I recognize your

name from MFW because I used to post there as well...you used to sign your

posts " (the pencil neck) " . But I got tired of the cynical and

childish nonsense that went on on MFW. I couldn't have an intelligent debate or

discussion with someone.

> Dude. It's still a gimmick to sell stuff. If you think it's anything

> other than that, you're naive.

For a guy who self-admittedly never read the book, I don't see how you are

in a position to make a judgement. A few months ago I purposely counted how

many pages out of the book Bill mentions supplements because I've heard this

gimmick thing before. I counted three. If the program was only meant to be

a gimmick, I think I would count a lot more than that. Maybe or maybe not

the contest is a gimmick. But I would hardly call the book one.

> because of this. That's great. But most of the people who read the

> book or sign up for the competition try some of the stuff for a couple

> of weeks, sign the guest book and talk about what a great effect it has

> on their lives, and then go back to what they were doing before they

> read the book.

Really? Then why do I read messages in the guestbook like, " I'm on my 2nd

12 week challenge " or " Just completed the challenge and had great results "

and comments like that? You have no idea whether " most " people give the

program up or stick with it. Give me some hard statistics and then maybe

I'll believe you.

> > First, he doesn't earn a dime from the sales of his

> > book...all royalties go to the Make a Wish Foundation.

> Genius publicity.

I don't believe it's just for publicity. Maybe I'm wrong. Whether it's for

publicity or not doesn't matter anyway. The fact is it still helps

thousands of children. A helluva a lot more children than you've helped in

your lifetime.

> Waittasecond, . I'm not saying that the Body For Life program is

> " wrong. " I'm just saying that it's a marketing gimmick that is geared

> towards newbie lifters but the competition will almost always be won by

> people who already have muscle and just need some cutting.

You admitted to the fact that you haven't paid any attention to the contest

since it first came out. Well, the contest has numerous categories that you

can win...experienced fitness champion (for people who already are

experienced in fitness), inspiration champion, couples champion, senior

champion, etc. And looking through my Muscle Media Feb. 1999 issue right

now, I would say less than half of the winners that year already had

significant muscle and just needed cutting.

> The bottom line is that this is a competition being held by a company

> whose job is to sell supplements. This competition is a multi-tiered

> marketing strategy designed to sell more supplements. I personally

> don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Neither do I. There is one thing that we agree on.

Krieger

Graduate student, exercise science

Washington State University

November 16, 2000

An overweight, younger guy (anyone under the age of 40 is " younger " ) I work

with is jumping into the BFL program with both feet. I really, really

wanted to tease him about getting all excited about it. My take on it was

going to be that exercising six days a week and watching what you eat will

probably have a positive effect on any sedentary person. So why buy into

the hype? But I held my tongue, because I'm glad to see him taking care of

himself.

BFL teaches a structured approach to exercise and diet. Not a great

approach, not a bad approach. The hype gets more people involved. More

people involved in their health and strength training (should we call it

" weightlifting " , too?) is a good thing. They will spill over into other

approaches, looking for even better methods. It's good for the industry of

strength, fitness, nutrition, etc.

Ken got everyone jogging. Maybe the Bill ' of the world will

get them into the weight room.

BFL gives away a great deal of free information to sell supplements. I

think calling it a gimmick or marketing " genius " or hype (as I did) is not

very fair. How many places can we go to buy supplements without receiving

any advice? There are plenty of people willing to take our money. BFL

gives much more than that to the people who want what they have to offer. I

think it's much more honorable to teach people how to use products properly

than to sell products without guidance.

Skip Dallen (not one single credential)

Covina, CA USA

November 16, 2000

Krieger wrote...

<<What is your definition of " a few pounds " ?

Cheryl Cundick lost 24 lbs of body fat

I would hardly call that a few pounds.

Lynn Cyr lost 12 lbs of body fat.

The webmaster gained 17 lbs of lean body mass.

Ken Vetter lost 22 lbs of body fat>>

,

I think you should definitely include the terms ESTIMATED or APPROXIMATELY

in regards to the amount of muscle gained or fat lost. As I'm sure you

know, even the gold standard for estimating body composition is just that -

an estimate.

Burkhardt

Strength and Conditioning Coach

UC Irvine

November 16, 2000

> Q: Will I gain more muscle if I exercise more?

>

> A: The way to gain more muscle is not through more exercise. On the

> Body-for-LIFE Program, I have a specifically designed, principle-based

> weight-lifting program which stimulates muscle growth. Anything more than

> that can lead to what's called overtraining.

>

> And if people who are thin and want to gain muscle size and strength do more

> exercise, they're not going to get more results. It's not as simple as " more

> is better. " They need to focus on the intensity, and then they need the

> recovery, and they need the nutrition.

I would say that Bill is not completely accurate with these comments.

However, we must remember that his book is targeted to the layperson who

knows nothing about exercise, so in cases like these, you often have to

simplify things enough to get people to understand what you are talking

about, even if it means simplifying things to the point where it is not

100% accurate. The average person generally does not put forth enough

effort when they go into the gym (especially females due to their fear of

" bulking up " ), so it is important to get people to focus more on training

hard for short periods of time rather just going through the motions.

Things aren't that simple for athletes but I don't believe Bill's book is

targeted towards athletes. The average person can put on appreciable

amounts of muscle without spending huge amounts of time in the gym...just

look at the Hardgainer methods or HIT methods which some people have

success.

> Q: Should I eat something before I work out—like an energy bar?

>

> A: This depends on what your goal is. Now, if your only concern is

> athletic performance, you should consume carbohydrates—like an energy bar or

> a sports drink—before, during, and after your physical activity.

>

> However, if your goal is to lose fat and gain muscle, I do not recommend

> eating before your workout. This is a mistake many people make. You see, if

> you supply your body with carbohydrates to use as fuel while you're

> exercising, you will slow down fat loss. That's why I recommend, for maximum

> fat-burning effects, you exercise on an empty stomach.

This is one area where I would definitely disagree with Bill and Bill's

lack of thorough knowledge about physiology shows here. During a weight

training workout, muscular work is fueled entirely by muscle glycogen so

eating carbohydrates beforehand is not going affect fat loss in any way

since body fat is not used as a main energy source during weight training

anyway. And as far as aerobic workouts are concerned, we have the same

issue. Bill recommends high intensity interval training, which is going

to be fueled primarily by carbohydrates (muscle glycogen and blood

glucose). Whether on an empty stomach or not, the amount of fat utilized

for energy during a 20-min interval session is small. Bill also does not

realize that 50% of fat energy that is expended during aerobic exercise

comes from intramuscular triglycerides and not from the release of

triglycerides from adipose tissue. The advantages of interval training

lie in its effects on post-exercise energy expenditure and not the amount

of body fat used for fuel during exercise.

> , , . May I quote from Bill P. himself?

Joe, nowhere did I claim that Bill is not trying to sell supplements with

the BFL program. But

my argument is that the program is not *solely* to sell supplements. I

know about the quotes you gave. But they are not littered all over the

book. Now, I'm not saying I agree with Bill's tactics here. He makes it

sound like you need supplements to be successful, and I don't agree. But

I don't agree that the *sole* purpose of the program is to sell

supplements. It is one purpose, but not the only one.

> Alden:

>

> Does this mean that the supplements are necessary and inevitable if you wish

> to have a competitve body for the competition and for " life " ? Do you believe

that is true?

No, they are not necessary. When I made that comment I was simply stating

the rules of entering the actual competition. To enter the actual

competition and win by its rules, you have to use at least 1 EAS

supplement. That doesn't mean I agree with that.

> And therein lies the rub. I have many adult clients who have come to me with

> BFL info. It's not all bad and not all good. The emphasis is too often on

> how you look not how healthy you are.

I would agree with your criticism here which is something I haven't

thought about.

> I would like to think real life champions would be judged on healthy

> lifestyles and the ability to continue on a healthy regime.......for life.

I would definitely agree with you here.

Krieger

Graduate student, exercise science

Washington State University

November 16, 2000

From: <watson@...>

> > ly, I've looked at some of these pictures and Davin's and Ian's

> > transformations are more impressive than any of the ones I looked at.

> > The people I looked at looked like they've just shed a few pounds.

Krieger wrote:

> What is your definition of " a few pounds " ?

Apparently, it's different from yours.

> Cheryl Cundick lost 24 lbs of body fat

> <http://www.bodyforlife2.com/women/cheryl_cundick/cheryl_cundick.htm>

>

> I would hardly call that a few pounds.

Yet, I would. I consider that very little change whatsoever. Her hips

and thighs look slightly better because she's at a different angle.

She's smiling. The lighting is better. She has a little more than.

This is not a particularly big change.

She's still got thick thighs and they look to be about the same

thickness before and after.

> Lynn Cyr lost 12 lbs of body fat.

> <http://www.bodyforlife2.com/women/lynn_cyr/lynn_cyr_front_before_after.jpg>

Look at the difference in the hair, the glasses, the bathing suit. The

first picture was an attempt to be as unflattering as possible, the

second was an attempt to look as good as possible. 12# of bodyfat, I

don't think so.

> The webmaster gained 17 lbs of lean body mass.

> <http://www.bodyforlife2.com/bobstory.htm>

Bwahahahahaha! Are you joking? This is the classic example of what I'm

talking about. Here's a guy who makes himself look as bad as possible

in the first shot: no flexing, body hair, white skin, bright flash,

serious look on his face. Then in his second shot suddenly he's got a

tan, you can see his legs, he's smiling, he's flexing, he's oiled up,

he's got a better photographer, his body hair is gone.

This guy might have lost a few pounds over 12 weeks but there is NO WAY

he gained 17# of lean body mass.

> Ken Vetter lost 22 lbs of body fat

> <http://www.bodyforlife2.com/men/ken_vetter/ken_vetter.htm>

Here's a guy who has obviously lifted before; he's got lifter's

shoulders. In the first picture he makes himself look as sluggy as

possible. Then in the second picture, he's tanned and smiling and

flexing. Where'd his body hair go? Where'd that tan come from?

> There are more examples. Some of these people give their numbers along with

> their pictures. Assuming that they are telling the truth, then the numbers

> are showing more than " a few pounds. "

That's assuming a lot.

> And there are other things that can't

> be faked. For example, from a side pose, someone can fake a decrease in

> waist size by simply tightening their abs in the " after " and sticking their

> gut out in the " before. " But from the front pose, this doesn't make your

> waist look any smaller. You can't fake or enhance decreases in waist size

> from the front or back views. Also, for females, you can't fake loss of

> body fat from the thighs and buttocks.

And I don't see much of that. Have those people pose in exactly the

same way without changing ANYTHING. But that's not the way to win the

contest. If you want to win the contest, make yourself look bad in the

before shot and then make yourself look good in the after shot.

> > Because of the way the contest is structured, people try to look as bad

> > as possible in the before pictures and then as good as possible in the

> > after pictures. In the before picture, slouch, frown, don't flex your

> > muscles, use a flash camera, etc. In the after pictures, get a tan, oil

> > up, flex your muscles, smile, get pictures done with a better

> > camera/photographer, etc.

> So what? I actually know that Bill recommends you do these things.

So what? That screws up any way to compare before and after shots.

> If I was going to get my college graduation photo taken, would I walk in

> there having just got out of bed or am I going to present myself the

> absolute best way that I can? Of course I would do the latter. And it

> would be no different for my " after " pic. I am going to present myself the

> best way that I can. I don't see anything wrong with that. Yes, it makes

> the transformations look more dramatic. But if that encourages other people

> to take up the program and get involved in the bodybuilding/fitness

> lifestyle, then that is a good thing.

It still makes it impossible to tell if there's any difference between

the before and after shots. Are these people getting their money's

worth? Judging from the pictures you pointed out, I don't think so.

I'm more impressed by Cheryl Cundick's August 99-Jan 00 transformation

than by any progress she made on the BFL.

> > > I wouldn't say so. I think it was pretty obvious that Ellis,

> > >Jeff Seidman, and Abb Ansley gained muscle mass...especially , who

> > > was already lean and skinny and didn't have much body fat to lose.

> > I couldn't find those guys anywhere on the site or the body for life

> > site.

> These are three of the guys from the first contest. And they are in the

> Body of Work video. And they are also on the BFL advertisements that you

> see in Muscle Media and at health food stores.

That assumes I read Muscle Media or look at advertisements in health

food stores.

> > > If you read the BFL book, Bill mentions supplements like on 2

> > >or 3 pages out of the entire book...so he doesn't talk about them much. I

> > >would hardly call this a program that solely trying to sell you

supplements.

>

> > OK. Selling supplements and selling books.

>

> > Every book sold increases his fame and sells more supplements. Genius.

> And every book sold benefits a child who will never be able to experience

> many of the things you or I take for granted. Yes, I would call that

> genius. It seems to me you want to point out every negative thing that you

> can.

Which part of what I've been saying are you taking exception to

exactly? I have stated that this competition provides motivation for

some people to change their lives and that's a good thing. I've also

said that this is a gimmick by Bill and/or EAS to sell

supplements (and that's not necessarily a bad thing.)

For some reason, you want Bill to be doing this out of altruistic

purposes. That's naive.

> I think you've been hanging out on MFW too long. I recognize your

> name from MFW because I used to post there as well...you used to sign your

> posts " (the pencil neck) " .

I haven't been posting to this group with that name but only because

this is a little more serious venue than the strength list or MFW.

Although I feel fairly confident to give lifting advice on MFW (and

somewhat confident on the strength list), I am out of my league on this

list and I'm just here to read and learn. My name recently changed to

" (1/2 ton) " after breaking the 1000# barrier at my last

meet.

But my perception of Bill is not clouded by his reputation on

MFW. I personally know people who like him and I personally know people

who hate him. Not because of some newsgroup chatter but because they

actually know him. Since I have not met him, I don't like or dislike

him.

> But I got tired of the cynical and

> childish nonsense that went on on MFW. I couldn't have an intelligent debate

> or discussion with someone.

MFW is MFW. It's a party. There are some great people there and it has

had a great effect on my life. If you want to look at it that way, MFW

is my Body For Life. The lifting knowledge might be 10-20 years out of

date but it's still a great place to begin learning if you can handle a

high noise to signal ratio.

> > Dude. It's still a gimmick to sell stuff. If you think it's anything

> > other than that, you're naive.

>

> For a guy who self-admittedly never read the book, I don't see how you are

> in a position to make a judgement. A few months ago I purposely counted how

> many pages out of the book Bill mentions supplements because I've heard this

> gimmick thing before. I counted three. If the program was only meant to be

> a gimmick, I think I would count a lot more than that. Maybe or maybe not

> the contest is a gimmick. But I would hardly call the book one.

Whatever. Believe what you want to believe.

> > because of this. That's great. But most of the people who read the

> > book or sign up for the competition try some of the stuff for a couple

> > of weeks, sign the guest book and talk about what a great effect it has

> > on their lives, and then go back to what they were doing before they

> > read the book.

>

> Really? Then why do I read messages in the guestbook like, " I'm on my 2nd

> 12 week challenge " or " Just completed the challenge and had great results "

> and comments like that? You have no idea whether " most " people give the

> program up or stick with it. Give me some hard statistics and then maybe

> I'll believe you.

Give me some hard statistics and maybe I'll believe you. There are

plenty of people on MFW who've tried BFL and given up on it just to come

back to lifting a few years later. Additionally, if this book was

touching as many lives as it is supposed to be changing, I don't think

the US would be getting fatter in general.

> > > First, he doesn't earn a dime from the sales of his

> > > book...all royalties go to the Make a Wish Foundation.

>

> > Genius publicity.

>

> I don't believe it's just for publicity. Maybe I'm wrong. Whether it's for

> publicity or not doesn't matter anyway. The fact is it still helps

> thousands of children. A helluva a lot more children than you've helped in

> your lifetime.

Really. And what do you know about my work at MD Cancer

Center? What do you know about my work with indigent people in LA

County? Bill might have helped more people than I have, but I

have had my own little effect.

> > Waittasecond, . I'm not saying that the Body For Life program is

> > " wrong. " I'm just saying that it's a marketing gimmick that is geared

> > towards newbie lifters but the competition will almost always be won by

> > people who already have muscle and just need some cutting.

>

> You admitted to the fact that you haven't paid any attention to the contest

> since it first came out. Well, the contest has numerous categories that you

> can win...experienced fitness champion (for people who already are

> experienced in fitness), inspiration champion, couples champion, senior

> champion, etc. And looking through my Muscle Media Feb. 1999 issue right

> now, I would say less than half of the winners that year already had

> significant muscle and just needed cutting.

Dude. You really need to stop reading those magazines. They'll rot

your brain.

>

> > The bottom line is that this is a competition being held by a company

> > whose job is to sell supplements. This competition is a multi-tiered

> > marketing strategy designed to sell more supplements. I personally

> > don't think there's anything wrong with that.

>

> Neither do I. There is one thing that we agree on.

(1/2 ton)

November 16, 2000