Guest guest Posted March 19, 2003 Report Share Posted March 19, 2003 In a message dated 3/19/2003 5:54:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, mccoy@... writes: > Potential flame war averted, list mom raised her hand and asked " am I the > only one who smells something like peanuts in every freak spikenard > sample? " > Anya > http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady > © > No, I do too. But then Spikenard and I don't get along. For the longest time when I heard mention of it in the Bible, I thought it was a form of lavender (from oil of spike, I suppose.). I'd almost rather it *was*. Chrisiant. " We live in a Golden Age, and all you can do is whine about all the yellow. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2003 Report Share Posted March 19, 2003 On Wed, 19 Mar 2003, Tony Burfield wrote: > Hi , > > I guess you are trying to wind me up again over ethics, but there again I > dont see anyone else answering this question up to now. > God! No! I seem to be destined to be the Britney Spears of this group, having Done It Again. No ethical winding being done here - when I went to your site, I read through the fauna section, and then bookmarked it for later revisiting. My ethical error was made out of ignorance, and will not be repeated. FWIW, I think this is an ionone-free spikenard oil, if spikenard oil it is. Indeed, the rancid cheese valerenal notes made themselves, so maybe this is mostly contaminant. Thanks for the info, J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2003 Report Share Posted March 19, 2003 At 02:03 PM 3/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: >FWIW, I think this is an ionone-free spikenard oil, if spikenard oil it >is. Indeed, the rancid cheese valerenal notes made themselves, so maybe >this is mostly contaminant. Potential flame war averted, list mom raised her hand and asked " am I the only one who smells something like peanuts in every freak spikenard sample? " Anya http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady © Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Hi , Sorry, my comments were meant to be a bit tongue in cheek. I should have put in a smiley face symbol.... I guess I get a bit tired of seeing the enormous mark-ups made on oils AND (I'm not shouting!), then seeing people ripped off by adulteration as well. It seems to me that if you are paying hundreds or even thousands of percent more than the oil cost in the first place, you are entitled to a pure oil, or at least to be told that it has a percentage of synthetics in it. For example I have yet to see a 100% pure commercial Linden Blossom absolute. I have seen products offered with various synthetics added - and when IFRA standards came in restricting hydroxycitronellal levels, various companies owned up that that particular synthetic was or had been in their Linden Blossom product. So you have a generation of people possibly that have not seen pure oils and absolutes, unless they have made them themselves. Maybe its time to start a campaign for real oils at realistic prices. Tony. www.tonyburfield.co.uk > No ethical winding being done here - when I went to your site, I read > through the fauna section, and then bookmarked it for later revisiting. My > ethical error was made out of ignorance, and will not be repeated. > > FWIW, I think this is an ionone-free spikenard oil, if spikenard oil it > is. Indeed, the rancid cheese valerenal notes made themselves, so maybe > this is mostly contaminant. > > Thanks for the info, > > J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 At 12:13 PM 3/20/2003 -0000, you wrote: >Hi , > >Sorry, my comments were meant to be a bit tongue in cheek. I should have put >in a smiley face symbol.... Tony using a smiley fact emoticon? Heresy! >Maybe its time to start a campaign for real oils at realistic prices. Oh, before I reply, let me manually snip all the topposting clutter. I'm back. " A campaign for real oils at realistic prices. " Welllllllll, I thought that's what the boutique-y aromatherapy people were aiming for all along. Where's that emoticon when you need it? Oh, here's the one, showing disgust :-P It seems the AT industry, for all its backpatting about the therapetic values of oils, has done nothing - nothing - to insure that the oils are 'real', or even pure, or found at realistic prices. I'll bet 90% of the people in this group buy from AT suppliers, the most gullible of all when it comes to vetting the authenticity of the oils. How do you tony, the industry insider, suggest we go about this project? Anya http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady © Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Anya wrote>>I'll bet 90% of the people in this group buy from AT suppliers, the most >>gullible of all when it comes to vetting the authenticity of the oils. >>How do you tony, the industry insider, suggest we go about this project? Hi Anya, I don't know the easy answer. Aromatherapy professional organisations have failed their members in promoting any lead in establishing programs or policies for authentication of essential oils. But then, many top AT organisation officials actually sell oils, so they have a vested interest in not issuing standards. I regard many of the top AT organisations as being almost totally corrupt, and it would be a mistake, I feel, to depend on anything useful from them. Aromatherapy oil sellers have failed to get themselves in a coherent professional trade group. There have been some attempts to get one initiated, but I wont bore you with the politics of why this failed. This still remains a viable option for them. They could fund an authentication policies program for oils out of an annual subscription, which could be related to turnover. Why this hasnt happened is a complete puzzle. Aromatherapy oil consumers could organise themselves similarly into an independent group and fund an authentication program. They could devise a unique seal of approval, that they (as aromatherapists) only use independently tested oils in their practices. Again there has been no forthcoming initiative to do this. Natural perfumery is probably too young to have formed a professional organisation. It is the new " big thing " with people being charged £500 per weekend here in the UK to do courses with hack perfumers (I have charged £120-£150 to give some comparison, but have been too busy to run any this year). It'll take a while for it to settle down and for people to get a sense of values about it all, but I dont see any truly independent organisation yet being formed (there is one being formed in the US, which breaking through the thin disguise, is just the sales outlet of a particular company selling to the gullible). It would be worth Natural Perfumers to establish themselves into groups and make charitable status affiliations with professional perfumery groups. In this way, the natural perfumers might be able to get access to good first hand information from the perfumery organisations instead of scrabbling aound for tit-bits on the internet (and I dont mean that disrespectfully). OK there's some suggestions. Over to you! Tony www.tonyburfield.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Tony Burfield wrote: > £120-£150 to give some comparison, but have been too busy to run any this > year). Hello all, Had to put my two cents in to say that Tony and taught a great class on Intro Perfumery. Well worth the overseas trip to London. Trudy Welker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 At 06:00 PM 3/19/2003 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 3/19/2003 5:54:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, >mccoy@... writes: > >> Potential flame war averted, list mom raised her hand and asked " am I the >> only one who smells something like peanuts in every freak spikenard >> sample? " >No, I do too. But then Spikenard and I don't get along. For the longest time >when I heard mention of it in the Bible, I thought it was a form of lavender >(from oil of spike, I suppose.). I'd almost rather it *was*. > > Chrisiant. Wow, nobody else smells peanut but Chrisiant and me? Amazing how olfactory receptors differ. Well, just like the senses of sight, hearing, taste and touch vary, so does the sense of smell. I agree with the lack of enthusiasm about spikenard, too. I find most friends who love it also love vetiver, another oil I can pass on. They term them 'grounding'. I term them funky and/or sweet (vetiver smells like molasses to me). I have blended with vetiver, but not spikenard yet. Oh, yes, the confusion about 'spike' in the Bible. That has been discussed to death in other groups. It was not spike lavender, but spikenard, a very precious, revered oil in those days. Me, I'd gag over a foot rub with spikenard, but lavender would be welcome anyday :-) Anya http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady © Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 Anya wrote>>Wow, nobody else smells peanut but Chrisiant and me? Amazing how olfactory receptors differ. Well, just like the senses of sight, hearing, taste and touch vary, so does the sense of smell. Its far more likely that you are smelling oils from different Valerianaceae species or variants of species - you might well be comparing chalk with cheese (no pun intended). It would be useful to state the country of origin of these materials at least, if you have no other information, when comparing odour profiles. >>I agree with the lack of enthusiasm about spikenard, too. I find most friends who love it also love vetiver, another oil I can pass on. They term them 'grounding'. I term them funky and/or sweet (vetiver smells like molasses to me). I have blended with vetiver, but not spikenard yet. Here is a case in point. Common vetiver qualities sold by AT suppliers include the following origins: Haiti, China, Java, India (North and South) and Bourbon. All these vetiver oils smell very, very different, even the North vs. South Indian oils. If you extract them, or make perfumery derivatives such as vetiverols from them, then they smell even more different. And then there are things that the trade would want to palm you off with, such as vetiver residues ex distillation, and substandard and burnt oils. These are often blended with good oils to get rid of them. Right now, the better odoured Bourbon and Haiti vetivers are going very short and prices are through the roof. And so you might be buying Chinese vetiver products under the impression that you are buying Haiti. I hope I'm not getting too sophisticated for this list when I say that the odour of these materials really does depend on origin (amongst a whole load of other intrinsic and extrinsic factors), but if you are to make any sense of perfumery materials and their effects in compositions, these things have to be put in the melting pot! Best wishes for peace to you all. Tony. www.tonyburfield.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 > > > Wow, nobody else smells peanut but Chrisiant and me? Amazing how > olfactory > receptors differ. Well, just like the senses of sight, hearing, taste > and > touch vary, so does the sense of smell. > I'm beginning to feel ripped off with my spikenard oil! It definitely does not have a peanut note. Not at all sweet either. A dry, sharp, slightly musty herbaceous smell, which slowly improves on the dry out. Having read others' descriptions, I'm increasingly suspicious that what I got may be mostly adulterant or contaminant! And, tragically, it smells nothing like my vetiver, which I rather like. In general, how is it classified in terms of head/heart/base? I'm still trying to understand the differences. FWIW, to me it feels a bit like a light base. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 Hi , Top middle and end notes are theoretical concepts of evaporative profiles based on the fact that odours should change seamlessly but steadily throughout a dry-down cycle, as the more volatile components progressively disappear and are replaced by higher boiling point odorphores (corresponding to higher molecular weight materials). In fact this is a gross simplification. For example Middle and End note materials appear in the Top note as was shown by Mookherjee's classical work on aura's. However, we still retain the concept in perfumery, as it is a useful way of looking at things. There is a lot of utter drivel classifying various raw materials as solely top note, middle note or end note substances. Many oils have two or all three aspects of this character. What they do in any given composition depends as much on what the other materials there are in the composition. For example Bergamot oil expressed Sicilian may have both top note and middle note character in many, or most of its applications. I don't believe that experienced perfumers go around agonising whether this material is middle note or end note, although they will instinctively try to create balanced perfumes with seamless evaporative dry-downs that retain the basic character of the fragrance all throughout the evaporative process. So my advice is not to get too hung up on this. Tony www.tonyburfield.co.uk > I'm beginning to feel ripped off with my spikenard oil! .....[snipped for Anya!] .... > In general, how is it classified in terms of head/heart/base? I'm still > trying to understand the differences. > FWIW, to me it feels a bit like a light base. > > J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 --- In , <jaze@e...> > I'm beginning to feel ripped off with my spikenard oil! It definitely > does not have a peanut note. > Not at all sweet either. A dry, sharp, slightly musty herbaceous smell, > which slowly improves on the dry out. > Having read others' descriptions, I'm increasingly suspicious that what > I got may be mostly adulterant > or contaminant! And, tragically, it smells nothing like my vetiver, > which I rather like. > > In general, how is it classified in terms of head/heart/base? I'm still > trying to understand the differences. > FWIW, to me it feels a bit like a light base. > > J. I have green spikenard from EOU (found out it was endangered right after ordering it, pfffft!), and this is almost floral it's so delicately layered. It's definitely a base note. Steam-distilled from Nepal per the label. Less " muddy " than spikenard from India I've smelled. No peanuts at all, no vetiver either (this should not smell like vetiver, they're less alike than apples and oranges in scent). This is an almost sweet musty faintly green (more green than herbacious) base note that made a good base for a lavender and chamomile concoction I started working on this week. I'd call this a medium intensity base note. Too damn bad it's endangered, this is really nice stuff. Where did you get your spikenard, if you don't mind my asking? sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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