Re: Interesting Dialogue on Synthetics

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

East Indian sandalwood produced from the roots and heartwood of has a fairly

consistent analysis profile. Most of us take the criteria of the famous

Indian chemist, Verghese, as providing the acceptable composition

guidelines. He established the normal range for santalols in the EI oil. It

is known however that (+)-(Z)-a-santalol has only a weak odour, and that

(-)-(Z)-b-santalol contributes more to the odour profile. The oxidative

degradation products of these alcohols, such as (+)-(E)-a-santalal, are also

important. By aroma dilution analysis (that is by diluting the odour down

until we can only perceive one or two odourants), we can show that

nor-a-trans-bergamotenone in spite of its presence being approx. 0.01%, is

also a very strong odour impact material in sandalwood EI.

By comparison we can show that Indonesian sandalwood oil scores

comparitively poorer in impact, radiance etc, thus confirming master

perfumers opinions over the years. However there are some tricks of the

trade. One is to artificially oxidise the sandalwood oil to produce

substances like santalal above. However in spite of the widespread view that

I have seen on other AT lists, that the longer you keep sandalwood oil the

better it gets, sandalwood oil can go " over the hill " after a few years,

developing sour notes and rancidity. It often the case therefore that

artificially oxidised Indonesian sandalwood oils will not keep as long. But

basicaly they lack the " creaminess " of Sandalwood oil, which may be

something to do with the bergaamotenone content, as this iimparts milky and

nutty qualities to the oil.

Sandalwood chips that I have seen ex India (sold to China) are the exhausted

chips ex distillation. They have the characteristic white outer surfaces you

remark on. Sandalwood sawdust is available also, and of course much used by

joss-stick makers, but often contaminated with the sawdust of other species

of tree. The supplies of Indonesian sandalwood have only recently dried up

in the past few months. Sandalwood oil EI is still available but very short,

as I said topping $600 a kilo and still moving up. No-one expects it to be

freely available in future. .

Australian Sandalwood extracts, are produced we believe by solvent

extraction followed by co-distillation, or by other means (my website will

be revealing further details) are of course being marketed from another

threatened species of sandalwood. Its odour composition and properties

differ from East Indian Sandalwood, for which there is no replacement.

Tony

www.tonyburfield.co.uk

Fw: Re: Interesting Dialogue on Synthetics

> Tony,

>

> First, Indonesian sandalwood oil is still produced, although I

> wouldn't be astounded that it is difficult for Western companies to

> obtain, or find most of it was going to India for resale.

>

> The adulterations you spoke of, I can't comment on. I do have

> pictures of harvested Sandalwood in Indonesia that are only a couple

> of years old. I also have a pretty large piece of Indonesian

> heartwood, and a piece of heartwood from Mysore.

>

> As far a notes and preferences, there are many factors I can think of

> that produce different aromatic properties. For example:

>

> What material in being distilled? Is it roots or base heartwood, or a

> combination? Recently I was sent some Sandalwood chips from India.

> The aroma is very good, much better than the Ayurvedic grade powders

> from even the best suppliers here. But close inspection showss it

> contains a significant amount of white outer-wood mixed in.

>

> What is the quality or type of distillation? As you know you can take

> the same raw material and do many variations, producing entirely

> different GCMS profiles.

>

> Also, aging can produce many of the properties you note as missing

> from Indonesian oil.

>

> As far as Agmark being in contempt. I have some " Agmarked " Mysore

> from a high-profile store in NYC that I've had for over 4 years now,

> and in my opinion it is not " aging " as I would expect. I have many

> samples of Sandalwood oils, and some are very old, and I have my own

> method of testing both patchouli and sandalwood by it's aging process.

>

> And you can tell a lot by the slope of the dryout as well.

>

> When a sandalwood or patchouli doesn't change much with age, I'm

> pretty certain it's not entirely natural.

>

> Also, what is the status of Agmarking? Have they started again? The

> last I heard the program was being discontinued and the person who

> was running it sort of disappeared from the scene rather quickly.

>

> Personally I have little trust in either the Indian government, or

> the industry " Traders " Perhaps that's just from here so many

> different stories according to what seems to be most beneficial to

> their current status and product availability. I have little doubt if

> Sandalwood Oil production was discontinued in both Indonesia and

> India, they traders would be telling me how special WA Sandalwood

> really is, and how we've misjudged it so severely, and how current

> methods were producing an even better oil with more medical benefits

> than ever before.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Tony,

I don't want to continue a long debate, but frankly I don't buy

everything you are saying.

1. I don't buy that you can even compare accurately the woods by

analyzing the oils. Every distillation ends up different and I can

manipulate the same oil greatly using the exact same source material.

2. I don't think you can show a legitimate " Baseline " for comparison,

no matter how famous the chemist.

3. When you talk about comparisons, do you have any strick controls

assuring a reasonable comparison, e.g. How old were the trees chosen

for the experiment. How were the samples noted and controlled (what

percentage of what grade root, compared to what percentage of base

heartwood?

4. Everything you write slants to Indonesian or Austrailan tampering,

which reads to me like a vested interest in pushing IA Sandalwood.

That may not be the case, but that is the way I read it, especially

since you don't seem to mention the possibility of Indian tampering

at all, and the Indians are the masters of tampering and adulteration.

I wouldn't try to deny that because I can pull up FDA cases against

Indian companies and easily demonstrate that. Some top companies at

that! don't have me pulling those covers or half the people in this

business will be coming after me, sending me email viruses, and

poking pins in voodoo dolls.

Are far as natural Sandalwood going Rancid, I've never seen that

happen when ther WASN'T a synthetic involved, by I have seen

adultered Sandalwoods go rancid.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

>

> 1. I don't buy that you can even compare accurately the woods by

> analyzing the oils. Every distillation ends up different and I can

> manipulate the same oil greatly using the exact same source material.

I didnt say you could compare the woods - I was comparing the oils from the

woods, and I am only interested in complete oils, not fractions. The oils

have been the subject of a very large number of analytical and odour

investigations over the years - I discuss eleven or so oils in the first

edition of my book, and I supply appropriate references. This is expanded in

the second edition.

Comparison of the odour of the woods would require different analytical

techniques - but this is not routinely done to my knowledge.

> 2. I don't think you can show a legitimate " Baseline " for comparison,

> no matter how famous the chemist.

I respect your opinion which is based on your experience. Lets just say that

my experience is different.

> 3. When you talk about comparisons, do you have any strick controls

> assuring a reasonable comparison, e.g. How old were the trees chosen

> for the experiment. How were the samples noted and controlled (what

> percentage of what grade root, compared to what percentage of base

> heartwood?

The effect of tree age, part of the tree etc. are known variables to these

studies. As backgound, the oils from any individual oil-bearing tree species

are always slightly different tree to tree. Individual rosewood trees for

example give some oils richer in laevo linalol, some oils richer in dextro

linalol, the oils thertefore smell different. The allowances for-, the

limits to- and the effects of natural variability is built-in to essential

oil studies, so we know what the norms are and what the typical range looks

like for any given property. However what I was originally talking about are

character compounds, which are taken as indicators of quality.

> 4. Everything you write slants to Indonesian or Austrailan tampering,

> which reads to me like a vested interest in pushing IA Sandalwood.

> That may not be the case, but that is the way I read it, especially

> since you don't seem to mention the possibility of Indian tampering

> at all, and the Indians are the masters of tampering and adulteration.

Over the years you get to know who you can trust and who you cannot. There

is a core of us old timers who swap details about known crooks in this

business. In some cases this is highly detailed and documented.

> Are far as natural Sandalwood going Rancid, I've never seen that

> happen when ther WASN'T a synthetic involved, by I have seen

> adultered Sandalwoods go rancid.

Nothing keeps for ever!

Tony.

www.tonyburfield.co.uk

[Guest guest]

> Hi ,

> >

> > 1. I don't buy that you can even compare accurately the woods by

> > analyzing the oils. Every distillation ends up different and I can

> > manipulate the same oil greatly using the exact same source

material.

>

> I didnt say you could compare the woods - I was comparing the oils

from the

> woods, and I am only interested in complete oils, not fractions.

The oils

> have been the subject of a very large number of analytical and odour

> investigations over the years - I discuss eleven or so oils in the

first

> edition of my book, and I supply appropriate references. This is

expanded in

> the second edition.

>

> Comparison of the odour of the woods would require different

analytical

> techniques - but this is not routinely done to my knowledge.

>

> > 2. I don't think you can show a legitimate " Baseline " for

comparison,

> > no matter how famous the chemist.

>

> I respect your opinion which is based on your experience. Lets just

say that

> my experience is different.

>

> > 3. When you talk about comparisons, do you have any strick

controls

> > assuring a reasonable comparison, e.g. How old were the trees

chosen

> > for the experiment. How were the samples noted and controlled

(what

> > percentage of what grade root, compared to what percentage of base

> > heartwood?

>

> The effect of tree age, part of the tree etc. are known variables

to these

> studies. As backgound, the oils from any individual oil-bearing

tree species

> are always slightly different tree to tree. Individual rosewood

trees for

> example give some oils richer in laevo linalol, some oils richer in

dextro

> linalol, the oils thertefore smell different. The allowances for-,

the

> limits to- and the effects of natural variability is built-in to

essential

> oil studies, so we know what the norms are and what the typical

range looks

> like for any given property. However what I was originally talking

about are

> character compounds, which are taken as indicators of quality.

>

> > 4. Everything you write slants to Indonesian or Austrailan

tampering,

> > which reads to me like a vested interest in pushing IA Sandalwood.

> > That may not be the case, but that is the way I read it,

especially

> > since you don't seem to mention the possibility of Indian

tampering

> > at all, and the Indians are the masters of tampering and

adulteration.

>

> Over the years you get to know who you can trust and who you

cannot. There

> is a core of us old timers who swap details about known crooks in

this

> business. In some cases this is highly detailed and documented.

>

>

> > Are far as natural Sandalwood going Rancid, I've never seen that

> > happen when ther WASN'T a synthetic involved, by I have seen

> > adultered Sandalwoods go rancid.

>

>

> Nothing keeps for ever!

>

> Tony.

> www.tonyburfield.co.uk

Hey Tony,

Yes nothing lasts forever.

Now, I was speaking of the woods originally when you commented on the

quality difference, wasn't I?

Anyway, in order to analyze the true potential of the oil, I think

you need to collect the wood yourself, distill it yourself, and

analyze it yourself. You may be able to get some kind of picture by

analyzing the oils coming from both, but that doesn't tell you if the

problem is an inherent difference in the trees, or coming from the

production side.

Known crooks hey! Oldtimers?????

To my friends at Baieido, I'm sure you seem anything but an oldtimer,

since the family business dates back to at least 1657. And they've

been in those forests many times. They are the oldest aromatics

trader in the world to my knowledge, and we don't even know how old,

because in those days, the Japanese didn't have last names. And they

took their father's name, and the name of their trade when they took

over. Jinkoya Sakubei took that name in 1657 when he changed the

business to specialize in aloeswood. Before that he was Yamatoya

(Medicinal Herb Wholesaler) Sakubei and we don't know how many

Yamatoya Sakubei's there were because the records were destroyed in

WWII.

So, Tony, I think I get some pretty good info, and in the last four

years, Baieido has not contradicted one thing they've ever told me,

and I've yet to find their information anything less than perfect. On

occasion they couldn't answer a question and would contact someone

like Professor Yoneda (who is the only person in modern times allowed

to take a sample from Ranjatai) or another Japanese expert and get

the answer.

In contrast to the " Oltimers " in the EO industry whose stories seem

to drift on the wind, contradict each other daily, and apparently

keep the entire industry in a state of confusion and paranoia.

Ask anyone and they will tell you they are the only ones that

have " real " . . .

Later, Tony.