Re: Interesting Dialogue on Synthetics

[Guest guest]

At 05:11 PM 10/31/2002 -0000, you wrote:

>

>The response from my Japanese friend amounts to this:

>

> " Natural aromas are greatly effected by seasonal preferences, but

>synthetic fragrances do not appear to be effected the same way. It is

>much easier to market a perfume that is not season dependent. "

>

>I thought this was extremely enlightening.

I agree with your friend, entirely. There is a move towards homogenization

of *everything*, it seems, and a replicable, across-the-board-'appeals to

everyone' scent would only be accomplished with a synthetic.

Except with me, as most synthetics make me gag. I'm not talking about

innocuous FOs that sometimes contain EOs as a base, I'm talking about all

the fashionable 'water' or 'musk' scents. All seasonless, all sharp, all

horrible.

Now, in perfumery, a statement you made earlier still holds true, not just

for the Japanese -- various scents are more appropriate for seasons, or

times of day. There was a big thread recently on alt.fashion about how

everyone was happy to put their summer scents away for fall/winter. I

actually remember some writing in summer how they were looking forward to

the cooler months, because they missed " perfume X " .

In the early ads for Chanel, it was touted as an 'evening' scent, and that

sort of 'appropriateness of the diurnal clock' holds true today. There are

scents I will wear during the day that are too 'light' for night, and vice

versa.

But along the lines of what you are saying, again, I agree, people are

liking synthetics in most everything today -- clothing, scent, food, etc.

We mavericks hide out here, eating nonirradiated food, wearing natural

fibers and using natural scents :-)

Anya

http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady

©

[Guest guest]

, et al:

Along the same lines, I think a good motto for our group would be:

" We're Natural Perfumers, We Don't Stink "

Natural perfumes tend to stay within one or two feet of the body, whereas

synthetic scents can blast an announcement of their stench into a room from

15 feet away.

Anya

http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady

©

[Guest guest]

> I agree with your friend, entirely. There is a move towards

homogenization . . .

My greatest fear is that Denny's will become the industry standard

for Key Lime Pie

We come to assume that natural quality is something that everyone

will easily identify and appreciate, that it is an inherent choice,

and not aquired taste.

I made some chocolate chip cookies, and the older people who ate them

loved them, but a couple of younger folk commented theyseemed to be

missing something.

Indeed!

They were missing partially hydrogenated . . .butter flavored crisco,

synthetic chocolate and vanilla . . .

Forgive me father, for I have sinned, and used the evils of real

butter, chocolate, and vanilla

Things completely alien and distasteful to the young connoisseurs of

the post Parkay generation.

Sheesh, would some pass me the Irish Creme Coffee Mate.

[Guest guest]

<It is ancient knowledge in Japan that perfume preferences are

effected by both season and " time of day " >

I'm in Tulsa Garden Club. Imagine how truly middle class I felt when

I learned that most of the members had both *summer* AND *winter*

china.

<Another example is Cha-no-yu (Japanese Tea Ceremony)>

I found a very detailed/illustrated book on the Tea Ceremony. When I

can dig it out of the bookcase, I'll report the name if anyone is

interested.

And, about synthetic fragrancing: I'm working contract research for

Boeing/OSU right now. It involves testing human factors at altitude

with pressurization. Twelve subjects and two researchers airlock

into a 10'x20' coach class simulator for 24 hours. I successfully

influenced rewriting of the chamber protocol so that all who enter

must not wear fragrance, cologne, perfume, splash, balm or

aftershave. All synthetic fragrance to me smells like a combination

of Barbie doll skin, urine, and Raid.

LISA

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

And what do unfragranced human beings smell like? Personally I cant stand

the smell of (E)-3-methyl-2-hexenoic acid! That in itself would induce

stress in me under these conditions, as well as subconciously affecting

behaviour (read The Psychology of Fragrance and The Scented Ape etc. for

background on the way unscented bodies affect our behaviour and reactions).

You dont sound very normosmic to me, more like parosmic in the way you

describe your reactions to smells. Are you sure your protocol will properly

eliminate your obvious hedonistic preferences? or eliminate the participants

with conditions such as hyposmia? It can be difficult to be completely

unprejeudiced, but of course, the elimination of bias is what scientific

endeavour is all about. It seems strange that a researcher with such strong

opionions would be openly talking about what should be a purely objective

study....

Tony

www.tonyburfield.co.uk

> And, about synthetic fragrancing: I'm working contract research for

> Boeing/OSU right now. It involves testing human factors at altitude

> with pressurization. Twelve subjects and two researchers airlock

> into a 10'x20' coach class simulator for 24 hours. I successfully

> influenced rewriting of the chamber protocol so that all who enter

> must not wear fragrance, cologne, perfume, splash, balm or

> aftershave. All synthetic fragrance to me smells like a combination

> of Barbie doll skin, urine, and Raid.

>

> LISA

[Guest guest]

> Hi ,

>

> And what do unfragranced human beings smell like? Personally I cant

stand

> the smell of (E)-3-methyl-2-hexenoic acid! That in itself would

induce

> stress in me under these conditions, as well as subconciously

affecting

> behaviour (read The Psychology of Fragrance and The Scented Ape

etc. for

> background on the way unscented bodies affect our behaviour and

reactions).

>

> You dont sound very normosmic to me, more like parosmic in the way

you

> describe your reactions to smells. Are you sure your protocol will

properly

> eliminate your obvious hedonistic preferences? or eliminate the

participants

> with conditions such as hyposmia? It can be difficult to be

completely

> unprejeudiced, but of course, the elimination of bias is what

scientific

> endeavour is all about. It seems strange that a researcher with

such strong

> opionions would be openly talking about what should be a purely

objective

> study....

>

> Tony

> www.tonyburfield.co.uk

If you expect us to be objective, you might start by using words that

can at least be found in a normal dictionary, or explain what those

terms imply.

The art of communication is not talking over someone's head!

[Guest guest]

wrote :>> If you expect us to be objective, you might start by using

words that

can at least be found in a normal dictionary, or explain what those terms

imply.

The art of communication is not talking over someone's head!

Well this is a perfumery group and its reasonable to use the terms and

concepts used in the art. However, Im sorry if I was overly obtuse, but

maybe its better to use terms and have to explain them, than not use them at

all. Thank you for pulling me up on this. Anyway:

(E)-methyl-2-hexenoic acid is the major component of human sweat. It has

that green note - rather than the cumin like or smelly feet notes of other

identifiable sweat components....

Hedonistic preference is the way or likes and dislikes cloud our value

judgements about odours, and can cause disortions of perception when judging

things like odour intensity etc..

Normosmic is the condition of being able to smell normally - which I

corrupted to mean in this sense being able to smell like Joe Public, rather

than as a member of this group with its pre-stated chemophobic

attitudes..... err.....from a purely objective point of view of course!

Hyposomia is the partial loss of sense of smell.

Parosmia: a perversion or distortion of the sense of smell. I quote from my

book " In a perfumery context the word may mean the misclassification of a

perceived odour by an individual: for example a musky odour might be

perceived as a woody " . In this case wrote " All synthetic fragrance to

me smells like a combination of Barbie doll skin, urine, and Raid. " Same

thing. It would be important for any objectivity to distinguish whether

this is pure prejeudice, or whether the olfactory system of the subject

() was sufficeintly impared that she was unable to distinguish the

difference between the 20,000 or so commonly used synthetics in perfumes. If

the latter was the case I would be worried about handing over the

experimental design of a project to such an unfortunate researcher, as many

of the olfactory receptors which are used in the act of smelling in

distinguishing and evaluating synthetics, also are employed to do the same

job with naturals...

Finally the behaviour of hyposomics, anosmics, parosmics etc. may not be

normal under crowded or stressful conditions. We all respond to the chemical

signalling of others in cognitive and unconcious ways, but these individuals

may not have these operative pathways functioning.

Therefore the experimental design was talking about may be just as

flawed by eliminating people wearing perfume, deodorant, as not, because

chemical signalling from body odour replaces the artifical perfume. Thats

the point I was trying to make. You could turn this around, and say that in

extremely stressful situations people sweat copiously anyway - and there

could be therefore a factor here to consider when assessing individual or

group reactions to aircraft conditions. Again, people who are ill

(schizophrenics, fever etc) produce indicator compounds in their sweat

which normal people subconciously react to - sometimes quite markedly - and

this is another complication.

Tony

www.tonyburfield.co.uk

>

> > Hi ,

> >

> > And what do unfragranced human beings smell like? Personally I cant

> stand

> > the smell of (E)-3-methyl-2-hexenoic acid! That in itself would

> induce

> > stress in me under these conditions, as well as subconciously

> affecting

> > behaviour (read The Psychology of Fragrance and The Scented Ape

> etc. for

> > background on the way unscented bodies affect our behaviour and

> reactions).

> >

> > You dont sound very normosmic to me, more like parosmic in the way

> you

> > describe your reactions to smells. Are you sure your protocol will

> properly

> > eliminate your obvious hedonistic preferences? or eliminate the

> participants

> > with conditions such as hyposmia? It can be difficult to be

> completely

> > unprejeudiced, but of course, the elimination of bias is what

> scientific

> > endeavour is all about. It seems strange that a researcher with

> such strong

> > opionions would be openly talking about what should be a purely

> objective

> > study....

> >

> > Tony

> > www.tonyburfield.co.uk

>

> If you expect us to be objective, you might start by using words that

> can at least be found in a normal dictionary, or explain what those

> terms imply.

>

> The art of communication is not talking over someone's head!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

tony,

thanks for the very informative post.

s.

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[Guest guest]

Dear Tony,

Are you still in England? My oldest son tells me you Brits don't have

a clue when it comes to synthetics. Tell me, do you have real butter

or oleo margarine in your frig? How many Swiss and Dutch Chocolates

are made with fake Chocolate? Do you use Cream or Coffee Mate? How

are sales of Diet Soda in the UK?

I find this ironic, perhaps you could clear this up. You were here in

the States, and you've travelled the East & Middle East. Have you

found any country where more sythetics and chemicals are being used

than in the good ole USA?

Now I'm not talking about the manufacture, study, or production of

chemicals and synthetics. I have little doubt that Europe and Asia

are producing much more of it than we are.

I doubt you are Reptile-Phobic either, but perhaps that would change

if you lived in the Everglades

But where is it ending up?

On the other matter, there is not a Zen Center I know of that will

allow you to wear a perfume in the Zendo.

[Guest guest]

At 09:16 PM 11/1/2002 -0000, you wrote:

>Dear Tony,

>

>Are you still in England? My oldest son tells me you Brits don't have

>a clue when it comes to synthetics. Tell me, do you have real butter

>or oleo margarine in your frig? How many Swiss and Dutch Chocolates

>are made with fake Chocolate? Do you use Cream or Coffee Mate? How

>are sales of Diet Soda in the UK?

OK, you get the award for most off-topic post on Natural Perfumery :-)

>I doubt you are Reptile-Phobic either, but perhaps that would change

>if you lived in the Everglades

Hey, now you're in my neck of the woods -- Miami, and belive me, you don't

need to live *in* the everglades to see gators, etc. they're always popping

up in our neighborhoods, looking for a stray Poodle or cat to eat (sob).

>But where is it ending up?

I jus woke up from a nap, and all these questions make me feel like I'm

intoxicated.

>

>On the other matter, there is not a Zen Center I know of that will

>allow you to wear a perfume in the Zendo.

why not? That's mean. Mean old zendies, stick some nice Baiedo up their

noses, LOL.

*Now* we're back on subject, the oleo and diet soda had me thrown

off-balance there.

Anya

http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady

©

[Guest guest]

> And what do unfragranced human beings smell like?<

Freshly bathed skin smells divine! Like honey comb!

> You dont sound very normosmic to me, more like parosmic in the way

you describe your reactions to smells.>

I'm just a left-over hippy, half-breed, organic gardener, MBA who

owns a natural skin care business. Popular synthetic cosmetic

fragrancing smells to me like a razor blade. Essential oils and

things we find in the garden/nature smell to me like the yummiest,

butteriest, warm, fresh, homemade dinner roll at Thanksgiving.

<Are you sure your protocol will properly eliminate your obvious

hedonistic preferences?>

Get real! How could it? America is an over-washed, over-fragranced

nation. The test subjects will, no doubt, have washed and rinsed

their hair in fragrance, gelled, moused or sprayed their hair with

yet more fragrance, bathed with fragrance, deodorized with fragrance,

put on clothes that were washed, then laundry-softened with

fragrance, brushed their teeth and gargled with fragrance, used

shaving cream with fragrance, applied facial cosmetics with

fragrance, hugged someone who fragranced before boarding the test,

maybe smoked a cigarette before boarding the test, ate breakfast at a

diner and came on board smelling like Waffle House or Mc's,

arrived in a car with a fragrance pendant hanging from the rear-view

mirror, and on and on through the fragrance soup of life.

The objective was to eliminate the obvious distraction of those who

over-apply their favorite " calling card " .

<It seems strange that a researcher with such strong opionions would

be openly talking about what should be a purely objective study....>

I won't " go there " (OT) with you, on that, in a Natural Perfumery

post.

However, I do thank you for look-up references which I will pursue as

time permits.

LISA

[Guest guest]

Tony,

I have another question:

You talk about Chemophobic, but for the last five years all I hear

about is Essential Oil safety, and safety concerns on Natural

Products.

How many posts have you written on this and other lists about the

dangers of Cinnamom, costus, yada, yada. And Watt as well.

It seems we have organizations coming out of the woodwork who want to

conntrol and certify the safety and safe use of EO's and Natural

aromatics.

Where are the reports on Synthetic Linalyl acetate, or Geraniol? How

many posts in the past five years have you written on the safety of

Fragrance Oils or synthetics?

Are we Chemo-Phobic, or are you Nature-Phobic?

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I guess I see my role is privileged one in that I am able to pass on

information. Natural Perfumers for example may not be aware of the huge

amounts of data coming out on safety, analysis, legislation, new raw

materials etc . If you are informed of this you can make a decision, and

prepare a defensive case, if you are not informed, you cant. Alternatively

if you don't want to know, you can " block sender " on my posts. As well as

doing this, I help people (Aromatherapists and Natural Perfumers) who have

fallen foul of the regulatory authorities, often defending them against

institutional bullying. And I answer queries from aromatherapists, website

visitors and the interested public, at least 2 hours every day, which I have

done for the past 4-5 years.

I was informed the other day that a member of a " professional " committee

feeding into the EU law-makers said " that Tony Burfield must be stopped " . I

guess I took it as the most flattering thing I ever had reported to me.

Now to your points. Ever since Hippocrates died from hemlock poisoning, or

maybe before, we have realised that some naturals are not safe. The work

continues.....

I have worked extensively in my small way to try and save the conventional

perfumery from the worst horrors of the 7th amendment. I have probably

written more posts on this than on the safety of naturals. However the way

the legislation is going, they will be ultimately regarded as the same

thing. I have asked a question to a member of the European Parliament

(kindly routed via Liz Tams) explaining that the examination of synthetics

cannot be used to condemn naturals i.e. safety testing synthetic

citronellol, say, is not relevant to predicting the properties of natural

citronellol in a natural raw material.

Now that I have explained I devote much of my spare time to fighting

regulatory madness and answering general queries in conventional perfumery,

in Natural Perfumery and Aromatherapy....err.... what exactly is it that do

you do, apart from making money?

:-)

Tony

www.tonyburfield.co.uk

> Tony,

>

> I have another question:

>

> You talk about Chemophobic, but for the last five years all I hear

> about is Essential Oil safety, and safety concerns on Natural

> Products.

>

> How many posts have you written on this and other lists about the

> dangers of Cinnamom, costus, yada, yada. And Watt as well.

>

> It seems we have organizations coming out of the woodwork who want to

> conntrol and certify the safety and safe use of EO's and Natural

> aromatics.

>

> Where are the reports on Synthetic Linalyl acetate, or Geraniol? How

> many posts in the past five years have you written on the safety of

> Fragrance Oils or synthetics?

>

> Are we Chemo-Phobic, or are you Nature-Phobic?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Hi nne,

>

> Actually I quite enjoy people giving me a bit of stick. Shows

they're still

> alive and they feel strongly about issues.

>

> I respect and I'm sure he plays Devils advocate as much with

me as I

> do with him.....

>

> Don't take it seriously ...just a couple of bikkhus walking 'round

each

> other.

>

> :-)

>

> Tony.

Come on, Tony, do you have to pull the covers, mate?

I rather enjoy the reputation of the irrasible old curmudgeon.

I do wish I was as good at making money as you think

What do I do besides?

Not nearly enough!

[Guest guest]

Tony,

Trying to get back on the track. There may be some thing going on

over here you are not aware of.

Yes, of course, there are plenty of natural products which are toxic

and even acutely poisionous.

However, in reality, here in the USA these are not causing major

health problems and concerns. ly we don't have a significant

problem with naturals here that I've seen.

In contrast, even our FDA is becoming greatly concerned over the use

of synthetic flavorings, and fragrances.

Recently MSNBC did a report on FDA's concern, which stated that these

products are costing us millions in health care.

In addition a friend told me that our incidence of disease related to

the limbic system, e.g. Parkinson's, Alzhiemers, and Clinical

depression is probably the highest per capita in the world.

I don't think there is much question that we are using more synthetic

flavorings and fragrances than any nation on earth.

And honestly, don't you see a lot of these " Safety Issues " regarding

natural products, and especially EO's coming from groups that are

looking to become the " Controlling Agencies " of the EO industry?

Talk about making money!

How much money is there in being the ones who get to say whose

products are approved and whose aren't?

Remember, Tony, I've seen the effects of exposure to the chemcial

soups, I've tested chemical exposures in Department stores, Office

Buildings, Factories, and residences. I'm hardly chemophopic, I know

what Formaldhehyde, Toluene, and Benzene do to people. I also know

something about the genetic damage it's doing.

And, I can tell you there is no way you can say these synthetic

chemicals are safe because nobody has come close to being able to

analyze the effects of uncontrolled combinations of thousands of

different chemicals in an office building for example.

Furthermore, chemcials that have been safety tested for specific uses

are finding their way into products where they are " known " to be

toxic.

For example, look up any synthetic fragrance, and tell me what the

safety data says about exposing it to flame and heat.

So if you put a fragrance oil in a candle diffuser, you have applied

it against the safety warning and precautions -- isn't that correct?

One argument I could make for the safety of Natural Perfumery over

Synthetic is that there are generally fewer materials being used,

that makes it easier to produce safely, and less likely to be a

problem.

[Guest guest]

Hi

Unfortunately my previous mail (sent twice) on this topic doesn't seem to

have made the group.

Basically I made out a case that the increased intakes of synthetics are

related to our levels of poverty (here) and the fact that many are forced to

rely on cheap junk food. In one of your previous mails you gave a list of

foods which people on the bread line here would regard as in the luxury

class - various sorts of chocolate, real butter and real cream. At the same

time not realising we have so many on the bread-line here, you (as a citizen

of the richest nation in the world, with your much higher disposable incomes

per capita) cocked a snoot at the unsophisticated British palate. Yes we are

an island, cant sustain ourselves very well, and have to import much of our

food. To make cheap food, full of extenders and by-products, more palatable,

the manufacturers enhance the products with flavourings. Yes, some of us

have to eat margarine flavoured with diacetyl and other buttery-tasting

compounds, because we cant actually afford real butter on the food budget

money some of us have. This fact seemed to have escaped your eldest son,

from the way you reported it.

Now that we are not allowed to take white fish from the North Sea, due to

overfishing, we cannot rely on our cheap but nutritious traditional working

peoples meal of fish and chips (which you call French fries). Instead we

have imported the junk food culture of Mcs, Kentucky fried, washed

down with Coke. Many of our young children's hyper-activity, asthma, eczema

and other problems have but put down in part to junk food diets. Coca-cola,

which contains a such naturals as cassia oil, distilled lime oil, kola base

etc as will as caffeine and the dubious aspartame has been shown to be quite

addictive to kids here - there are cases where consumption by under 12's is

in excess of 20 litres per week (I kid you not!). Materials like cinnamic

aldehyde in the cassia oil (Chinese cinnamon) in coca-cola have been

identified as possibly causing many of these physiological symptoms - who

knows exactly?? It would be a brave scientist who made a case against the

Coca-cola corporation, for reasons I don't need to detail.

In Europe we have a legal duty of care towards our fellow employees, our

customers and the public at large. Therefore the substances, both natural

and synthetic, that we put in cosmetics (the definition of which includes

perfumes) household products (which may include incense) foodstuffs,

beverages etc. etc. come under our Health and Safety laws.

What you are squawking about presumably is that naturals are now coming

under the microscope as much as synthetics. Approved positive list

synthetics in fragrances and flavourings already have full toxicity testing,

but it is true there are some new findings and new initiatives on synthetic

toxicity testing based on the inadequacy of previous testing protocols. Some

the naturals however have never been tested! Why do you think that is?

Peppermint oil, dill oil, aniseed and some citrus oils for example are

throwing up a new series of horrors - presumably because it has been known

for years that there were are health worries with these materials, but any

negative findings were chucked in the bin. Now it is own-up time, that is

all.

International protocols are de rigueur in multi-national companies - for

example the major international fragrance houses will comply to the IFRA

standards (used to be called guidelines), the major international flavouring

companies will comply with IFEAT's recommendations, or the recommendations

of similar bodies. Therefore, for example, fragrance companies will be

making sure that the level of rose oil used in fragrances is such that the

methyl eugenol content is below the required level. This ensures that, say,

a pregnant women rubbing a fragranced cream which contains rose or ravensara

etc.oil onto her tummy, is statistically are unlikely to be condemning their

unborn baby to a chance of tumour formation from the systemic carcinogen

which we now know is there (for more information please consult the 36th

amendment to IFRA). And sometimes, to save jobs, the law is twisted from the

outcome that normally would have come into effect from toxicological

considerations alone. For example international recommendations about

allowable amounts of safrole permitted in foodstuffs had to be distorted in

order to allow the nutmeg industry to flourish. This is a trade off of

predicted deaths against issues of freedom and employment. The public sees

little of this reasoning, which is buried in internal reports of trade

committees.

The situation you are talking about below is where small business people,

hobbyists etc., such as are found in Natural Perfumery, Aromatherapy etc.,

don't have an opportunity to tap into this vast amount of information. The

FDA over in the US, and the MCA and H & S people over here are desperately

running behind the pack - not leading from the front. The initiatives over

safety are coming from responsible fragrance and flavour customers and

producers. These professionals who aren't interested in merely complying

with the law, but under the duty of care and due diligence required of them

in their jobs, will be indirectly safeguarding the well being and health of

themselves, their families, the people they work with, their customer base

and the general public. In which case they may be going beyond the

requirements of the legislation, and often the guidelines of professional

bodies like IFRA, in the pursuit of professional excellence, and of course,

to cover their backsides against possible litigation. In the past 2 years,

the cautiousness of companies is now incredible in this latter respect,

perhaps I am no different, as I have to take out insurance cover etc. for my

lecturing information providing services.

As the fragrance industry is on its knees, the bubble has burst for

aromatherapy, and the essential oils industry is in decline (and much hit by

shortages in many items) it is a fair target for pharmaceutical companies to

take over. For example, this week, instead of allowing cannabis herb and

essential oil to become legal for legitimate therapeutic reasons (the

treatment of MS, to alleviate the pain of chemotherapy etc. etc.) GM

Pharmaceuticals are putting a non-euphoric isolate on the market which

claims to have many of the therapeutic advantages of the whole herb.

I rest my case.

Tony

www.tonyburfield.co.uk

> Tony,

>

> Trying to get back on the track. There may be some thing going on

> over here you are not aware of.

>

> Yes, of course, there are plenty of natural products which are toxic

> and even acutely poisionous.

>

> However, in reality, here in the USA these are not causing major

> health problems and concerns. ly we don't have a significant

> problem with naturals here that I've seen.

>

> In contrast, even our FDA is becoming greatly concerned over the use

> of synthetic flavorings, and fragrances.

>

> Recently MSNBC did a report on FDA's concern, which stated that these

> products are costing us millions in health care.

>

> In addition a friend told me that our incidence of disease related to

> the limbic system, e.g. Parkinson's, Alzhiemers, and Clinical

> depression is probably the highest per capita in the world.

>

> I don't think there is much question that we are using more synthetic

> flavorings and fragrances than any nation on earth.

>

> And honestly, don't you see a lot of these " Safety Issues " regarding

> natural products, and especially EO's coming from groups that are

> looking to become the " Controlling Agencies " of the EO industry?

>

> Talk about making money!

>

> How much money is there in being the ones who get to say whose

> products are approved and whose aren't?

>

> Remember, Tony, I've seen the effects of exposure to the chemcial

> soups, I've tested chemical exposures in Department stores, Office

> Buildings, Factories, and residences. I'm hardly chemophopic, I know

> what Formaldhehyde, Toluene, and Benzene do to people. I also know

> something about the genetic damage it's doing.

>

> And, I can tell you there is no way you can say these synthetic

> chemicals are safe because nobody has come close to being able to

> analyze the effects of uncontrolled combinations of thousands of

> different chemicals in an office building for example.

>

> Furthermore, chemcials that have been safety tested for specific uses

> are finding their way into products where they are " known " to be

> toxic.

>

> For example, look up any synthetic fragrance, and tell me what the

> safety data says about exposing it to flame and heat.

>

> So if you put a fragrance oil in a candle diffuser, you have applied

> it against the safety warning and precautions -- isn't that correct?

>

> One argument I could make for the safety of Natural Perfumery over

> Synthetic is that there are generally fewer materials being used,

> that makes it easier to produce safely, and less likely to be a

> problem.

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/4/02 12:54:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,

esoteric_llc@... writes:

> . I've also

> spent even more time educating people on Japanese Incense traditions,

> both on-line and travelling the United States and never charged for a

> class, or asked for a donation.

>

>

Why wouldn't you want to make a profit? I think it is responsible to be

employed and encourage others to seek employment that contributes to

economies and to families. Sorry to be so forthright. I am not sure I am

qualified to read these posts.

Our US Constitution asks that we be responsible members of society, to earn a

living and provide for ourselves and our families, it encourages us to

motivate others to these ideals.

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Dear Tony,

Thank you for some good information, but I feel prejudice seems to

cloud your opinions, and politics dominate your argument.

I wasn't going to respond to this previously, but I find altruistic

resumes very distasteful. But perhaps you need to be corrected, even

for your own sake, and I want to show you how off-track some of your

prejudices happen to be.

Earlier, you asked what I have done besides making money. So I went

an looked up the records.

My personal income for the last 6 years averages $372.00 USD per

month.

Esoterics LLC lost $6,235.00 last year (Our most profitable year so

far)

Esoterics LLC donated $11,653.00 to Buddhist groups last year.

At the same time, I've managed the Zen Web for about 8 years, and

spent thousands of hours helping Zen & Buddhist Centers. I've also

spent even more time educating people on Japanese Incense traditions,

both on-line and travelling the United States and never charged for a

class, or asked for a donation.

I would imagine your salary at FPI alone amounts to making more money

than I ever have in this business, especially since $250.00 a month

of my income stated above came from managing the control systems for

an office building.

As far as your comments about American economics, I believe the green-

eyed monster often distorts people's views on this matter.

When you talk about food additives forced on your lower income, you

fail to note these same items are part of the diet of every class of

American, not just the less-fortunate.

When you consider our disposable income, you might also want to

consider that for many many years, we have not had the disparity

between classes many other nations have.

You may also consider nobody has ever been forced into birth control

in this country, yet I wouldn't be surprised if we came closer to

zero-population growth quicker than virtually every country on earth.

I can tell you something about poverty, because I remember the end of

the dust-bowl and the " grapes of wrath " and I lived in Mississippi

and saw both the Mansions hidden back in the woods, and the dirt

floor homes most everyone else had.

The trick of the wealthy in Mississippi was to blame the Black man

for the plight of the Poor White Man, and blame the poor White Man

for the plight of the Black Man.

I see this same dynamic going on in the world today.

And when people speak of our wealth, they bring out the isolated

evils of Mega - corporations, and politics, but do they ever look at

our educational systems, our hard-working attitudes and willingness

to invest and delay gratification? Do you examine our economic system

which allows for upward mobility. Our independence and our courage?

Do you ever examine what we are doing right, rather than what we are

doing wrong? Are you always seeking blame and political solutions?

And when we gave our countries sons and daughters lives to wars

started by Europeans, and European economics, did we ever get

anything but resentment in return?

I know we are not perfect, not even close, but the heart of the

American people is loving, generous, kind, and forgiving, and you

really want to find the cause for the poverty in the world, you look

for those mansions hidden in the woods!

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 11/4/02 12:54:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> esoteric_llc@y... writes:

>

> > . I've also

> > spent even more time educating people on Japanese Incense

traditions,

> > both on-line and travelling the United States and never charged

for a

> > class, or asked for a donation.

> >

> >

>

> Why wouldn't you want to make a profit? I think it is responsible

to be

> employed and encourage others to seek employment that contributes

to

> economies and to families. Sorry to be so forthright. I am not

sure I am

> qualified to read these posts.

>

> Our US Constitution asks that we be responsible members of society,

to earn a

> living and provide for ourselves and our families, it encourages us

to

> motivate others to these ideals.

>

> Jackie

Jackie,

I agree with you. It just so happens that in setting up this

corporation, profit wasn't the main objective or mission.

As far as providing for myself and family, I'm not complaining, and

both of my sons have college degrees and good jobs.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for your mail. Please note that I left FPI some years ago, and I am

self-employed, mainly providing technical services and infomation.

I think most of this dialogue is going way off topic. I would like to say

that I admire people that are capable of giving something back to society to

enrich it, which doesnt neccessarily have a price tag attached to it, and

would seem to apply to you.

My previous remarks were not meant to be a diatribe against any particular

country, just compassion for people caught up in circumstances which they

cannot easily escape. Being a pacifist and a world citizen, I really do not

want to go there with explorations of nationalism via the virtues of this

countries peoples or that countries peoples. There are good people

everywhere.

Tony.

www.tonyburfield.co.uk

> Dear Tony,

>

> Thank you for some good information, but I feel prejudice seems to

> cloud your opinions, and politics dominate your argument.

>

> I wasn't going to respond to this previously, but I find altruistic

> resumes very distasteful. But perhaps you need to be corrected, even

> for your own sake, and I want to show you how off-track some of your

> prejudices happen to be.

>

> Earlier, you asked what I have done besides making money. So I went

> an looked up the records.

>

> My personal income for the last 6 years averages $372.00 USD per

> month.

>

> Esoterics LLC lost $6,235.00 last year (Our most profitable year so

> far)

>

> Esoterics LLC donated $11,653.00 to Buddhist groups last year.

>

> At the same time, I've managed the Zen Web for about 8 years, and

> spent thousands of hours helping Zen & Buddhist Centers. I've also

> spent even more time educating people on Japanese Incense traditions,

> both on-line and travelling the United States and never charged for a

> class, or asked for a donation.

>

> I would imagine your salary at FPI alone amounts to making more money

> than I ever have in this business, especially since $250.00 a month

> of my income stated above came from managing the control systems for

> an office building.

>

> As far as your comments about American economics, I believe the green-

> eyed monster often distorts people's views on this matter.

>

> When you talk about food additives forced on your lower income, you

> fail to note these same items are part of the diet of every class of

> American, not just the less-fortunate.

>

> When you consider our disposable income, you might also want to

> consider that for many many years, we have not had the disparity

> between classes many other nations have.

>

> You may also consider nobody has ever been forced into birth control

> in this country, yet I wouldn't be surprised if we came closer to

> zero-population growth quicker than virtually every country on earth.

> I can tell you something about poverty, because I remember the end of

> the dust-bowl and the " grapes of wrath " and I lived in Mississippi

> and saw both the Mansions hidden back in the woods, and the dirt

> floor homes most everyone else had.

>

> The trick of the wealthy in Mississippi was to blame the Black man

> for the plight of the Poor White Man, and blame the poor White Man

> for the plight of the Black Man.

>

> I see this same dynamic going on in the world today.

>

> And when people speak of our wealth, they bring out the isolated

> evils of Mega - corporations, and politics, but do they ever look at

> our educational systems, our hard-working attitudes and willingness

> to invest and delay gratification? Do you examine our economic system

> which allows for upward mobility. Our independence and our courage?

>

> Do you ever examine what we are doing right, rather than what we are

> doing wrong? Are you always seeking blame and political solutions?

>

> And when we gave our countries sons and daughters lives to wars

> started by Europeans, and European economics, did we ever get

> anything but resentment in return?

>

> I know we are not perfect, not even close, but the heart of the

> American people is loving, generous, kind, and forgiving, and you

> really want to find the cause for the poverty in the world, you look

> for those mansions hidden in the woods!

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi ,

>

> Thanks for your mail. Please note that I left FPI some years ago,

and I am

> self-employed, mainly providing technical services and infomation.

>

> I think most of this dialogue is going way off topic. I would like

to say

> that I admire people that are capable of giving something back to

society to

> enrich it, which doesnt neccessarily have a price tag attached to

it, and

> would seem to apply to you.

>

> My previous remarks were not meant to be a diatribe against any

particular

> country, just compassion for people caught up in circumstances

which they

> cannot easily escape. Being a pacifist and a world citizen, I

really do not

> want to go there with explorations of nationalism via the virtues

of this

> countries peoples or that countries peoples. There are good people

> everywhere.

>

> Tony.

> www.tonyburfield.co.uk

Dear Tony,

I believe all of us care about less-fortunate people, and I would

have to say that most people in the natural perfumes industry, and

incense industry are not in it simply for the money. If they are,

they need to get a new financial advisor.

When I told my son what I wanted to do, he thought I was nuts. The

ratio of interest to competition in the incense business was never

good, but now I think we are reaching the point where the number of

companies is going to exceed the number of consumers.

But you are right, this is off-track. What isn't off-track is that

both Natural Perfumery and Natural Incense are in danger of becoming

lost arts. As you know it is a lot easier to work with synthetics in

these industries, and like it or not, safety is an issue with these

synthetics.

Especially in incense. I haven't found one single synthetic fragrance

that doesn't have a caution against exposing it to heat and flame.

In Perfumery, don't you agree, it requires a lot more skill to make

natural perfumes?

Perhaps I'm too attached to preserving old ways. I remember finding

this series of books many years ago called " Foxfire " or something

like that. It was a project preserving folk recipes, soapmaking, etc.

Also, as I said before, what do you think is causing all this

clinical depression, Alziemers, Parkinson's etc. These are diseases

all related to the Olfactory & Limbic system.

I usually hate anecdotal reports, but about five years ago I started

to get hand tremors. I had two grandparents and one parent with

Parkinson's. I began to notice that when I burned a particular

Sandalwood incense the tremors went away. I tried Sandalwood

essential oil, and it didn't work. I tried several other sandalwood

incenses, and some worked and some didn't. What worked best was pure

sandalwood chips, so I started making my own sandalwood incense. From

my perspective the results are not debateable. The ones that worked,

worked quickly and completely, the ones that didn't had no effect at

all. Today, I haven't had a tremor in over a year.

Most of the people in the AT business, although they would deny it,

take a pharmacuetical approach to the healing potential of aromas.

Maybe because so many are nurses. The industry seems to be inclined

to view, or at least promote, aromas as complimentary medicine.

Basically, we have the " Tail Wagging the Dog " Marketing an liability

are directing the outcome.

The real potential lies in the hormones, and if we can learn to

adjust the endocrine system with aromatics, meditation, and other

sensual manipulation, we may very well be on a new medical horizon.

[Guest guest]

>>I would have to say that most people in the natural perfumes industry, and

incense industry are not in it simply for the money.

Agreed!

What isn't off-track is that

> both Natural Perfumery and Natural Incense are in danger of becoming

> lost arts. As you know it is a lot easier to work with synthetics in

> these industries, and like it or not, safety is an issue with these

> synthetics.

We can agree to disagree about synthetics, but I am with you completely on

the fact that the " craft " has virtually disappeared from conventional

perfumery. Now, honed perfumes are rarely offered, just brash and often

poorly constructed launches, which appear one after the other. Natural

perfumery (and conventional perfumery) has its problems with respect to

allowable ingredients, and there are a few perfumers who have expressed

interest in forming a private society where there are no ingredient rules,

just so they can remember how to use the materials they want to, in a

totally unrestricted environment! I guess that says a lot about where we

are now in perfumery.

> In Perfumery, don't you agree, it requires a lot more skill to make

> natural perfumes?

Well I'm not looking to disagree with you, but the answer is that if you are

conventionally trained in perfumery, the building up of perfume structure

from bases, accords, modfiers, enhamcers comes naturally. What is required,

is how to learn to use your raw materials to best effect. for

example, who teaches Natural perfumery with me, studies the

inter-relationships of some 150 basic materials, so that he knows the

permutations, combinations, inter-balancing, inter-harmonies, agonistic and

mitigating effects etc. etc. The study has taken hime several years so far,

and will take a lot longer before he's finished, I guess. This is one

possible approach - not mine....... but a good one I'm sure.......

>

> Perhaps I'm too attached to preserving old ways. I remember finding

> this series of books many years ago called " Foxfire " or something

> like that. It was a project preserving folk recipes, soapmaking, etc.

There's nothing wrong in that I'm sure. Except that all perfumers eventually

develop their nown style. Eventually, after years of training, you may get

to be able to " read " a perfumery formulation, and be able to follow the

" wheres and whyfores " of the inclusion of all the ingredients. I guess this

skill comes under preserving the old ways....

> Also, as I said before, what do you think is causing all this

> clinical depression, Alziemers, Parkinson's etc. These are diseases

> all related to the Olfactory & Limbic system.

Clinical depression is surely not caused by any one factor, but may commonly

be stress-related in part, perhaps. There are those medical experts that say

a slight depressive tendency it is a natural consequence of middle age......

:-( There is hope that the tangled neural pathways which characterise

Alzeimers, can be arrested now I understand with new drugs. I havent seen a

natural material which can do this, but Im not ruling it out - up to now

most hope has been pinned on the anti-oxidants from plants such as sage and

rosemary, together with some other more moder nutraceuticals no doubt ?

> I usually hate anecdotal reports, but about five years ago I started

> to get hand tremors. I had two grandparents and one parent with

> Parkinson's. I began to notice that when I burned a particular

> Sandalwood incense the tremors went away. I tried Sandalwood

> essential oil, and it didn't work. I tried several other sandalwood

> incenses, and some worked and some didn't. What worked best was pure

> sandalwood chips, so I started making my own sandalwood incense. From

> my perspective the results are not debateable. The ones that worked,

> worked quickly and completely, the ones that didn't had no effect at

> all. Today, I haven't had a tremor in over a year.

I believe that you sincerely believe, that the cause and effect principle

here has been demonstrated. Certainly the santalols in sandalwood oil, at

least, are physiologically active materials in man and other mammals. Now

that real sandalwood oil EI is so rare, that being traded up to $600 kilo

and the price still rising (but is probably a much higher price by the time

it gets to small Nat Perfumery users), we may be reaching the end of the oil

for normal perfumery usage - it will not be the first time an oil has

disappeared through over exploitation. As to sandalwood chips - are these

from accredited and government approved Indian traders?

> Most of the people in the AT business, although they would deny it,

> take a pharmacuetical approach to the healing potential of aromas.

> Maybe because so many are nurses. The industry seems to be inclined

> to view, or at least promote, aromas as complimentary medicine.

> Basically, we have the " Tail Wagging the Dog " Marketing an liability

> are directing the outcome.

>

> The real potential lies in the hormones, and if we can learn to

> adjust the endocrine system with aromatics, meditation, and other

> sensual manipulation, we may very well be on a new medical horizon.

There are a number of possible ways that AT can work. As a scientist I can

rationlise some of them - therapeutic effects of active components, placebo

effects etc - although rigorous scientific proofs are pretty rare. I know

some AT's very well, and some therapists can produce positive effects from

AT interventions which are seemingly inexplicable ....

But basically I agree, and hope to teach a new full time course in

Aromatherapy and Natural Perfumery in 2004, which will encompass many of the

things you refer to above. I was thinking of calling it " Medicinal

Perfumery " .....

Tony.

www.tonyburfield.co.uk

[Guest guest]

Tony Writes:

" As to sandalwood chips - are these from accredited and government

approved Indian traders? "

Tony,

The Sandalwood chips I use are what are known in Japan as " Old

Mountain " This is a Japanese accreditation which goes far beyond any

classification done in India. Like aloeswood, the old-timers in Japan

don't go buy indigenous or Chinese classifications. They go by their

own standards of inspection.

Old mountain refers to Mysore, and only the finest grade Sandalwood

gets this stamp in Japan. However, just being from Mysore, or being

graded vilat budh or similar doesn't qualify it. It is hand selected

according to their own standards.

I'm sure you are aware that many of the Japanese companies still

possess large reserves of premium mysore heartwood. Reserves are

replentished as trading is allowed by the Indian government. I don't

know what the status is at this time, but since I've been doing this,

it has been on & off several times. For most incense production, in

Japan, Indonesian Sandalwood is being used. Most Chinese, Korean,

Malaysian, Thai, Vietnamese, and Cambodian production is using West

Australian Sandalwood and de-oiled sandalwood powder. India is using

both de-oiled Aussie and Indian powders, and usually synthetic oil is

added later. this can be confirmed by Australian census reports.

Personally, I wouldn't turn my nose up at Indonesian sandalwood. I

was told several years ago by friends who have spent eight-months a

year in India, that Indonesian was being Agmarked in India. This was

also the opinion of my friend Ashok who grew up in India.

There are some historians who believe Sandalwood was brought to India

from Timur and planted, and there is no question that for centuries

the Indians have been buying and trading for Indonesian Sandalwood.

I know for a fact Baieido only trades legally and when it is

permitted. I also know that when the Washington Treaty took effect

they discontinued the use of musk, and I know they are very

supportive of ecological measures and treaties.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your informative post. You told me several things that I

did not know, and I thank you for that. My son is just back from six weeks

in Japan, maybe to return again next year for longer, and I am looking at

the topic with renewed interest, considering his own remarks and perceptions

of cultural aspects there.

As far as I understand the situation, I believe that Indonesian sandalwood

oil is now pretty well unobtainable from a trade perspective, although

perfumers never rated it to the same degree as East Indian, the oil being

considered less radiant, possessing fewer fine notes, often giving a

" dirty " aspects to the dry-out after a week or less on a perfumers strip.

The Inodonesian oil cartels looked as if they collapsed at one time and then

tried to re-establish as sandalwood supplies got critical, and I can confirm

your suspicions that Indonesian sandalwood oil was at one time being used as

part of a brew together with sandalwood terpenes, probably with sandalwood

Vanuata and Australian sandalwood fractions, which was being passed off as

East Indian sandalwood oil by certain traders. I can't confirm that this

grade of material was Agmarked - if it was then it throws the whole system

of Agmarking into contempt - these mixes do not look authentic by GC/MS and

contain amounts of certain sesquiterpene alcohols not present, or only

present in minor amounts, in the East Indian oil. Licensing authorities who

potentially made errors of this sort would never recover their international

credibility. I would be very interested to know who is/ or was supplying

the Indonesian cartels with Australian sandalwood oil.

Although deeply concerned about the threatened status of Sandalwood species,

I am sympathetic to the continued use of Sandalwood specifically for ritual

and religious purposes, which seems to me to be fundamental human right

which should not be interfered with. Similarly with Aloeswood. However it is

where to draw the line between over-exploitation by commercially fuelled

interests and guaranteed survival of these species which is bothering me.

Tony

www.tonyburfield.co.uk

> Tony Writes:

>

> " As to sandalwood chips - are these from accredited and government

> approved Indian traders? "

>

> Tony,

>

> The Sandalwood chips I use are what are known in Japan as " Old

> Mountain " This is a Japanese accreditation which goes far beyond any

> classification done in India. Like aloeswood, the old-timers in Japan

> don't go buy indigenous or Chinese classifications. They go by their

> own standards of inspection.

>

> Old mountain refers to Mysore, and only the finest grade Sandalwood

> gets this stamp in Japan. However, just being from Mysore, or being

> graded vilat budh or similar doesn't qualify it. It is hand selected

> according to their own standards.

>

> I'm sure you are aware that many of the Japanese companies still

> possess large reserves of premium mysore heartwood. Reserves are

> replentished as trading is allowed by the Indian government. I don't

> know what the status is at this time, but since I've been doing this,

> it has been on & off several times. For most incense production, in

> Japan, Indonesian Sandalwood is being used. Most Chinese, Korean,

> Malaysian, Thai, Vietnamese, and Cambodian production is using West

> Australian Sandalwood and de-oiled sandalwood powder. India is using

> both de-oiled Aussie and Indian powders, and usually synthetic oil is

> added later. this can be confirmed by Australian census reports.

>

> Personally, I wouldn't turn my nose up at Indonesian sandalwood. I

> was told several years ago by friends who have spent eight-months a

> year in India, that Indonesian was being Agmarked in India. This was

> also the opinion of my friend Ashok who grew up in India.

>

> There are some historians who believe Sandalwood was brought to India

> from Timur and planted, and there is no question that for centuries

> the Indians have been buying and trading for Indonesian Sandalwood.

>

> I know for a fact Baieido only trades legally and when it is

> permitted. I also know that when the Washington Treaty took effect

> they discontinued the use of musk, and I know they are very

> supportive of ecological measures and treaties.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Tony,

First, Indonesian sandalwood oil is still produced, although I

wouldn't be astounded that it is difficult for Western companies to

obtain, or find most of it was going to India for resale.

The adulterations you spoke of, I can't comment on. I do have

pictures of harvested Sandalwood in Indonesia that are only a couple

of years old. I also have a pretty large piece of Indonesian

heartwood, and a piece of heartwood from Mysore.

As far a notes and preferences, there are many factors I can think of

that produce different aromatic properties. For example:

What material in being distilled? Is it roots or base heartwood, or a

combination? Recently I was sent some Sandalwood chips from India.

The aroma is very good, much better than the Ayurvedic grade powders

from even the best suppliers here. But close inspection showss it

contains a significant amount of white outer-wood mixed in.

What is the quality or type of distillation? As you know you can take

the same raw material and do many variations, producing entirely

different GCMS profiles.

Also, aging can produce many of the properties you note as missing

from Indonesian oil.

As far as Agmark being in contempt. I have some " Agmarked " Mysore

from a high-profile store in NYC that I've had for over 4 years now,

and in my opinion it is not " aging " as I would expect. I have many

samples of Sandalwood oils, and some are very old, and I have my own

method of testing both patchouli and sandalwood by it's aging process.

And you can tell a lot by the slope of the dryout as well.

When a sandalwood or patchouli doesn't change much with age, I'm

pretty certain it's not entirely natural.

Also, what is the status of Agmarking? Have they started again? The

last I heard the program was being discontinued and the person who

was running it sort of disappeared from the scene rather quickly.

Personally I have little trust in either the Indian government, or

the industry " Traders " Perhaps that's just from here so many

different stories according to what seems to be most beneficial to

their current status and product availability. I have little doubt if

Sandalwood Oil production was discontinued in both Indonesia and

India, they traders would be telling me how special WA Sandalwood

really is, and how we've misjudged it so severely, and how current

methods were producing an even better oil with more medical benefits

than ever before.