RE: Young kids with huge Delta

[Guest guest]

Deb,

These kinds of questions about clients are excellent ones for the list and of interest to all of us, so let me ask not only you but anyone with case questions to follow a few standards to make it easier for the rest of us to learn from your experience and share our own:

Please let us know what hardware and software you were using (e.g. BrainMaster 1.9A), since this can affect the readings you see;

Please tell us whether you have done an assessment or what kind of evaluation, if any, you've done;

Please tell us the age and training goals of the client (you did this well);

If you include montage information, please use the format Active/Reference (e.g. C3/C4 or C3/A1 then C4/A2);

If you have done training, please include protocol information (e.g. 15-18 Hz reward/3-7 Hz inhibit; eyes open or closed);

If you have done training, please indicate whatever specific results you noted (or were noted after the session).

This client represents a type seen by many of us, and I'm sure there are lots of good ideas about how you might work with her. I'm also sure that many other folks will be looking forward to hearing those ideas as well.

Thanks for sharing these cases. Looking forward to hearing more about them.

Pete

Van DeusenBrainTrainer ()16246 SW 92nd Ave, Miami, FL 33157305/321-1595

Young kids with huge Delta

I have a couple of cases that are similar in that the presenting excess of theta is in the 30+ hz range. One is a young girl of 7 years who would be unable to sit still or stay awake for the initial sessions. Sweet girl of above intelligence who is in special resources and of great concern to the teacher.

She had adnoids so bad that she asked to undergo the surgery so she could sleep at night. I figured most of the Delta was sleep deprivation - her Delta was in the 40's. She came back and still the huge Delta. I was training at C3C4 and now wonder if that was a waste of time due to her sleepiness.

I am open to anyone's suggestions as to how to proceed with these little ones - also have a 15 yo with a similar problem.

Interesting side note - the mother of the above girl was a subject at Stanford's sleep clinic - excessive sleepiness. She is abit dazzy but gets the kid there every appointment on time - way better than my adult ADDers.

[Guest guest]

Hey Deb

I'd want to know a little more (the questions Pete asked), but would want to understand the goal(s). A lot of my largest population (attachment disorder) have 30+hz in theta. It's part of they way they protected themselves, so I don't find that to be outrageous (however thet are awake ...TOO awake as a matter of fact). Also when you say an adenoidectomy with huge adenoids, if the extreme delta/theta is in the frontal area, you may have some strange connection there. There are some things I'd ask and do right away.

1) You say Mom was a study at Stanford .. what are the chances of genetics playing a huge role?

2) Check out allergies, is this an allergic person and is it possible the sensitivity is "putting her to sleep" Check out filtering issues which can hide behind low frequency

3) Are there a mental health issues that put's the members of this family to sleep?

4) What about the diet. Get some some protein into the child if she's a carb addict. Vitamins ?? .. thyroid testing (not the usual kind can't remember off the top of my head, but normal thyroid tests often leave out a most important transmitter)

5) Exercise.. do any of them get any?

Then, of course, I'd keep training

Keep us posted, and good luck

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much for the response.

I noticed my typo - she has mainly huge delta not theta - it was in the 40's before the operation and now is in the 30's.

I'm a small single person office and at times I get discouraged. I also train myself and try to train my sons who are the most challenging "clients" I have. Yesterday I tried to find a handle on training my high delta son and finally "gave up" figuring the half hour was wasted. To both our surprise he began noticing differences - more aware of surroundings, less defiant... and that was essentially trying the increase alpha at Pz. Or decrease Theta.

Much of the time is spent trying to deal with the 60hz interference on the 2nd channel. I learned on neurocybernetics and really am used to a clean signal and the Roshi doesn't ever seem to give that. Chuck has tried to explain it to me but I hate the 60 hz. Key <danielkey@...> wrote:

Hey Deb

I'd want to know a little more (the questions Pete asked), but would want to understand the goal(s). A lot of my largest population (attachment disorder) have 30+hz in theta. It's part of they way they protected themselves, so I don't find that to be outrageous (however thet are awake ...TOO awake as a matter of fact). Also when you say an adenoidectomy with huge adenoids, if the extreme delta/theta is in the frontal area, you may have some strange connection there. There are some things I'd ask and do right away.

1) You say Mom was a study at Stanford .. what are the chances of genetics playing a huge role?

2) Check out allergies, is this an allergic person and is it possible the sensitivity is "putting her to sleep" Check out filtering issues which can hide behind low frequency

3) Are there a mental health issues that put's the members of this family to sleep?

4) What about the diet. Get some some protein into the child if she's a carb addict. Vitamins ?? .. thyroid testing (not the usual kind can't remember off the top of my head, but normal thyroid tests often leave out a most important transmitter)

5) Exercise.. do any of them get any?

Then, of course, I'd keep training

Keep us posted, and good luck

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the suggestions - I tend to be a bit of a "loose horse" at times.

I will get mores specific when I get to the office today - but for now:

I started on Neurocybernetics but it was nearly impossible with her squirming. I gave her things to hold and that helped but decided to switch to Roshi even though I still don't always feel I understand it.

On Roshi she fell asleep - so eyes closed at C3C4 for much of the time. I trained TO down and then Beta/smr - lowering the hz slightly ie 13 - 18 Hz on the left and similarly on the right. The ground is a clip on the ear - usually right and the references are where-ever they stick - usually in the top of the ear but I try on the mastoids.

As for the genetics - definately - by the way both parents are brillant and the father is recognized nationally in his field. They felt she had no problems (denial?) but we've changed all that Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

Deb,

These kinds of questions about clients are excellent ones for the list and of interest to all of us, so let me ask not only you but anyone with case questions to follow a few standards to make it easier for the rest of us to learn from your experience and share our own:

Please let us know what hardware and software you were using (e.g. BrainMaster 1.9A), since this can affect the readings you see;

Please tell us whether you have done an assessment or what kind of evaluation, if any, you've done;

Please tell us the age and training goals of the client (you did this well);

If you include montage information, please use the format Active/Reference (e.g. C3/C4 or C3/A1 then C4/A2);

If you have done training, please include protocol information (e.g. 15-18 Hz reward/3-7 Hz inhibit; eyes open or closed);

If you have done training, please indicate whatever specific results you noted (or were noted after the session).

This client represents a type seen by many of us, and I'm sure there are lots of good ideas about how you might work with her. I'm also sure that many other folks will be looking forward to hearing those ideas as well.

Thanks for sharing these cases. Looking forward to hearing more about them.

Pete

Van DeusenBrainTrainer ()16246 SW 92nd Ave, Miami, FL 33157305/321-1595

Young kids with huge Delta

I have a couple of cases that are similar in that the presenting excess of theta is in the 30+ hz range. One is a young girl of 7 years who would be unable to sit still or stay awake for the initial sessions. Sweet girl of above intelligence who is in special resources and of great concern to the teacher.

She had adnoids so bad that she asked to undergo the surgery so she could sleep at night. I figured most of the Delta was sleep deprivation - her Delta was in the 40's. She came back and still the huge Delta. I was training at C3C4 and now wonder if that was a waste of time due to her sleepiness.

I am open to anyone's suggestions as to how to proceed with these little ones - also have a 15 yo with a similar problem.

Interesting side note - the mother of the above girl was a subject at Stanford's sleep clinic - excessive sleepiness. She is abit dazzy but gets the kid there every appointment on time - way better than my adult ADDers.Thank you

[Guest guest]

By the way a very loving and close family - no attachment disorder in these kids.Debaney Lefort <debaney2000@...> wrote:

Thanks so much for the response.

I noticed my typo - she has mainly huge delta not theta - it was in the 40's before the operation and now is in the 30's.

I'm a small single person office and at times I get discouraged. I also train myself and try to train my sons who are the most challenging "clients" I have. Yesterday I tried to find a handle on training my high delta son and finally "gave up" figuring the half hour was wasted. To both our surprise he began noticing differences - more aware of surroundings, less defiant... and that was essentially trying the increase alpha at Pz. Or decrease Theta.

Much of the time is spent trying to deal with the 60hz interference on the 2nd channel. I learned on neurocybernetics and really am used to a clean signal and the Roshi doesn't ever seem to give that. Chuck has tried to explain it to me but I hate the 60 hz. Key <danielkey@...> wrote:

Hey Deb

I'd want to know a little more (the questions Pete asked), but would want to understand the goal(s). A lot of my largest population (attachment disorder) have 30+hz in theta. It's part of they way they protected themselves, so I don't find that to be outrageous (however thet are awake ...TOO awake as a matter of fact). Also when you say an adenoidectomy with huge adenoids, if the extreme delta/theta is in the frontal area, you may have some strange connection there. There are some things I'd ask and do right away.

1) You say Mom was a study at Stanford .. what are the chances of genetics playing a huge role?

2) Check out allergies, is this an allergic person and is it possible the sensitivity is "putting her to sleep" Check out filtering issues which can hide behind low frequency

3) Are there a mental health issues that put's the members of this family to sleep?

4) What about the diet. Get some some protein into the child if she's a carb addict. Vitamins ?? .. thyroid testing (not the usual kind can't remember off the top of my head, but normal thyroid tests often leave out a most important transmitter)

5) Exercise.. do any of them get any?

Then, of course, I'd keep training

Keep us posted, and good luck

By the

[Guest guest]

Deb,

You are aware, I'm sure, that any eyes-open reading anywhere near the front of the head can result in large eye-blink artifacts, which appear as Delta and/or Theta. You can quite easily watch the power spectrum display and see in a moment how much your signal is being contaminated by that kind of artifact.

Well, I'm just going to plunge ahead based on some of your comments, assuming that when you say C3C4 you mean you were training in two channels, C3/? in one and C4/? in the other.

I hope you are clear that putting the references "wherever they stick" has a direct impact on training outcomes. The reference is half the circuit and defines (with the active lead) what area you are actually reading. It sounds like you are at least trying to train something like C3/A1 and C4/A2 (making sure the reference is on the same side of the head as the active lead.

I haven't used a ROSHI myself (except with Chuck at the controls on my own head), so I don't know what TO is. I assume perhaps it is a "squash" of all frequencies? Then you say you train Beta/Smr (13-18 Hz). Is it fair to assume you are training that up? You say you lowered the frequency slightly, but SMR would generally include 12-15 and beta about 15-18, so I'm not sure what you mean by that.

It's not generally a good idea to train that whole band on either side--at least not in my experience. SMR training on the left side can have a kind of "un-stupid-izing" effect, and certainly can make a client sleepy. And Beta on the right can make some clients more active and irritable.

At the risk of being remarkably simplistic, if what you see in the EEG is very high levels of Delta, then why don't you simply train down Delta in one place (preferably on the Left and toward the front) and see what happens? F7/A1 could be very helpful, since it is a center for physical and verbal impulse control.

If you have a client who is very fidgety and active, then generally training up SMR (12-15Hz at C4 or Cz, probably with something of a lower frequency due to age) is a great place to start.

Pete

Van DeusenBrainTrainer ()16246 SW 92nd Ave, Miami, FL 33157305/321-1595

Re: Young kids with huge Delta

Thank you for the suggestions - I tend to be a bit of a "loose horse" at times.

I will get mores specific when I get to the office today - but for now:

I started on Neurocybernetics but it was nearly impossible with her squirming. I gave her things to hold and that helped but decided to switch to Roshi even though I still don't always feel I understand it.

On Roshi she fell asleep - so eyes closed at C3C4 for much of the time. I trained TO down and then Beta/smr - lowering the hz slightly ie 13 - 18 Hz on the left and similarly on the right. The ground is a clip on the ear - usually right and the references are where-ever they stick - usually in the top of the ear but I try on the mastoids.

As for the genetics - definately - by the way both parents are brillant and the father is recognized nationally in his field. They felt she had no problems (denial?) but we've changed all that

[Guest guest]

Yes I was training C3-A1, C4-A2 with the references on the same side - either mastoid or top of ear since the ground clip was on one of the ear lobes.

I squashed the delta and theta on both sides, then would train Beta on C3-A1 and 9-12 on the C4-A2. Training the delta/theta down (inhibititing) tended to put her to sleep and I would do the 12-15 Hz on the left and 9-12 Hz on the right for the last 15 minutes or so to "wake" her up. I have noticed that calming the right side also decreased the excessive feet movement.

I hadn't thought of F7 and will definately give it a try.

Training Cz and C4 is also an idea I'll try.

The huge Delta is constant and persistent - no eye blink artifact.

The excessive 60hz I pick up on the second channel doesn't seem to bother the training but it monkeys up the raw eeg to a huge degree. I would think there would be a way to filter that out - why I get a clear 1st channel (left side) is perplexing to me. I often use continuous midi design just to see a clear eeg. So I wonder why a clear eeg on that design and not others? In fact I've gotten a clear eeg with the continuous midi design when the reference was half off!

Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

Deb,

You are aware, I'm sure, that any eyes-open reading anywhere near the front of the head can result in large eye-blink artifacts, which appear as Delta and/or Theta. You can quite easily watch the power spectrum display and see in a moment how much your signal is being contaminated by that kind of artifact.

Well, I'm just going to plunge ahead based on some of your comments, assuming that when you say C3C4 you mean you were training in two channels, C3/? in one and C4/? in the other.

I hope you are clear that putting the references "wherever they stick" has a direct impact on training outcomes. The reference is half the circuit and defines (with the active lead) what area you are actually reading. It sounds like you are at least trying to train something like C3/A1 and C4/A2 (making sure the reference is on the same side of the head as the active lead.

I haven't used a ROSHI myself (except with Chuck at the controls on my own head), so I don't know what TO is. I assume perhaps it is a "squash" of all frequencies? Then you say you train Beta/Smr (13-18 Hz). Is it fair to assume you are training that up? You say you lowered the frequency slightly, but SMR would generally include 12-15 and beta about 15-18, so I'm not sure what you mean by that.

It's not generally a good idea to train that whole band on either side--at least not in my experience. SMR training on the left side can have a kind of "un-stupid-izing" effect, and certainly can make a client sleepy. And Beta on the right can make some clients more active and irritable.

At the risk of being remarkably simplistic, if what you see in the EEG is very high levels of Delta, then why don't you simply train down Delta in one place (preferably on the Left and toward the front) and see what happens? F7/A1 could be very helpful, since it is a center for physical and verbal impulse control.

If you have a client who is very fidgety and active, then generally training up SMR (12-15Hz at C4 or Cz, probably with something of a lower frequency due to age) is a great place to start.

Pete

Van DeusenBrainTrainer ()16246 SW 92nd Ave, Miami, FL 33157305/321-1595

Re: Young kids with huge Delta

Thank you for the suggestions - I tend to be a bit of a "loose horse" at times.

I will get mores specific when I get to the office today - but for now:

I started on Neurocybernetics but it was nearly impossible with her squirming. I gave her things to hold and that helped but decided to switch to Roshi even though I still don't always feel I understand it.

On Roshi she fell asleep - so eyes closed at C3C4 for much of the time. I trained TO down and then Beta/smr - lowering the hz slightly ie 13 - 18 Hz on the left and similarly on the right. The ground is a clip on the ear - usually right and the references are where-ever they stick - usually in the top of the ear but I try on the mastoids.

As for the genetics - definately - by the way both parents are brillant and the father is recognized nationally in his field. They felt she had no problems (denial?) but we've changed all that :(Yes

[Guest guest]

Deb+

I see, here, where you're having some success About the "sleep"; the ROSHI is still

working, even if the client is asleep. Perhaps sleep is what she really needs. It is a healing

modality, you know :-)

/ChuckD....http://roshi.com/-----Original Message----- From: Debaney Lefort Sent: Jul 6, 2004 6:21 PM Subject: Re: Young kids with huge Delta

Yes I was training C3-A1, C4-A2 with the references on the same side - either mastoid or top of ear since the ground clip was on one of the ear lobes.

I squashed the delta and theta on both sides, then would train Beta on C3-A1 and 9-12 on the C4-A2. Training the delta/theta down (inhibititing) tended to put her to sleep and I would do the 12-15 Hz on the left and 9-12 Hz on the right for the last 15 minutes or so to "wake" her up. I have noticed that calming the right side also decreased the excessive feet movement.

I hadn't thought of F7 and will definately give it a try.

Training Cz and C4 is also an idea I'll try.

The huge Delta is constant and persistent - no eye blink artifact.

The excessive 60hz I pick up on the second channel doesn't seem to bother the training but it monkeys up the raw eeg to a huge degree. I would think there would be a way to filter that out - why I get a clear 1st channel (left side) is perplexing to me. I often use continuous midi design just to see a clear eeg. So I wonder why a clear eeg on that design and not others? In fact I've gotten a clear eeg with the continuous midi design when the reference was half off!

Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

Deb,

You are aware, I'm sure, that any eyes-open reading anywhere near the front of the head can result in large eye-blink artifacts, which appear as Delta and/or Theta. You can quite easily watch the power spectrum display and see in a moment how much your signal is being contaminated by that kind of artifact.

Well, I'm just going to plunge ahead based on some of your comments, assuming that when you say C3C4 you mean you were training in two channels, C3/? in one and C4/? in the other.

I hope you are clear that putting the references "wherever they stick" has a direct impact on training outcomes. The reference is half the circuit and defines (with the active lead) what area you are actually reading. It sounds like you are at least trying to train something like C3/A1 and C4/A2 (making sure the reference is on the same side of the head as the active lead.

I haven't used a ROSHI myself (except with Chuck at the controls on my own head), so I don't know what TO is. I assume perhaps it is a "squash" of all frequencies? Then you say you train Beta/Smr (13-18 Hz). Is it fair to assume you are training that up? You say you lowered the frequency slightly, but SMR would generally include 12-15 and beta about 15-18, so I'm not sure what you mean by that.

It's not generally a good idea to train that whole band on either side--at least not in my experience. SMR training on the left side can have a kind of "un-stupid-izing" effect, and certainly can make a client sleepy. And Beta on the right can make some clients more active and irritable.

At the risk of being remarkably simplistic, if what you see in the EEG is very high levels of Delta, then why don't you simply train down Delta in one place (preferably on the Left and toward the front) and see what happens? F7/A1 could be very helpful, since it is a center for physical and verbal impulse control.

If you have a client who is very fidgety and active, then generally training up SMR (12-15Hz at C4 or Cz, probably with something of a lower frequency due to age) is a great place to start.

Pete

Van DeusenBrainTrainer ()16246 SW 92nd Ave, Miami, FL 33157305/321-1595

Re: Young kids with huge Delta

Thank you for the suggestions - I tend to be a bit of a "loose horse" at times.

I will get mores specific when I get to the office today - but for now:

I started on Neurocybernetics but it was nearly impossible with her squirming. I gave her things to hold and that helped but decided to switch to Roshi even though I still don't always feel I understand it.

On Roshi she fell asleep - so eyes closed at C3C4 for much of the time. I trained TO down and then Beta/smr - lowering the hz slightly ie 13 - 18 Hz on the left and similarly on the right. The ground is a clip on the ear - usually right and the references are where-ever they stick - usually in the top of the ear but I try on the mastoids.

As for the genetics - definately - by the way both parents are brillant and the father is recognized nationally in his field. They felt she had no problems (denial?) but we've changed all that

Yes

[Guest guest]

Deb+

I see, here, where you're having some success About the "sleep"; the ROSHI is still

working, even if the client is asleep. Perhaps sleep is what she really needs. It is a healing

modality, you know :-)

/ChuckD....http://roshi.com/-----Original Message----- From: Debaney Lefort Sent: Jul 6, 2004 6:21 PM Subject: Re: Young kids with huge Delta

Yes I was training C3-A1, C4-A2 with the references on the same side - either mastoid or top of ear since the ground clip was on one of the ear lobes.

I squashed the delta and theta on both sides, then would train Beta on C3-A1 and 9-12 on the C4-A2. Training the delta/theta down (inhibititing) tended to put her to sleep and I would do the 12-15 Hz on the left and 9-12 Hz on the right for the last 15 minutes or so to "wake" her up. I have noticed that calming the right side also decreased the excessive feet movement.

I hadn't thought of F7 and will definately give it a try.

Training Cz and C4 is also an idea I'll try.

The huge Delta is constant and persistent - no eye blink artifact.

The excessive 60hz I pick up on the second channel doesn't seem to bother the training but it monkeys up the raw eeg to a huge degree. I would think there would be a way to filter that out - why I get a clear 1st channel (left side) is perplexing to me. I often use continuous midi design just to see a clear eeg. So I wonder why a clear eeg on that design and not others? In fact I've gotten a clear eeg with the continuous midi design when the reference was half off!

Van Deusen <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

Deb,

You are aware, I'm sure, that any eyes-open reading anywhere near the front of the head can result in large eye-blink artifacts, which appear as Delta and/or Theta. You can quite easily watch the power spectrum display and see in a moment how much your signal is being contaminated by that kind of artifact.

Well, I'm just going to plunge ahead based on some of your comments, assuming that when you say C3C4 you mean you were training in two channels, C3/? in one and C4/? in the other.

I hope you are clear that putting the references "wherever they stick" has a direct impact on training outcomes. The reference is half the circuit and defines (with the active lead) what area you are actually reading. It sounds like you are at least trying to train something like C3/A1 and C4/A2 (making sure the reference is on the same side of the head as the active lead.

I haven't used a ROSHI myself (except with Chuck at the controls on my own head), so I don't know what TO is. I assume perhaps it is a "squash" of all frequencies? Then you say you train Beta/Smr (13-18 Hz). Is it fair to assume you are training that up? You say you lowered the frequency slightly, but SMR would generally include 12-15 and beta about 15-18, so I'm not sure what you mean by that.

It's not generally a good idea to train that whole band on either side--at least not in my experience. SMR training on the left side can have a kind of "un-stupid-izing" effect, and certainly can make a client sleepy. And Beta on the right can make some clients more active and irritable.

At the risk of being remarkably simplistic, if what you see in the EEG is very high levels of Delta, then why don't you simply train down Delta in one place (preferably on the Left and toward the front) and see what happens? F7/A1 could be very helpful, since it is a center for physical and verbal impulse control.

If you have a client who is very fidgety and active, then generally training up SMR (12-15Hz at C4 or Cz, probably with something of a lower frequency due to age) is a great place to start.

Pete

Van DeusenBrainTrainer ()16246 SW 92nd Ave, Miami, FL 33157305/321-1595

Re: Young kids with huge Delta

Thank you for the suggestions - I tend to be a bit of a "loose horse" at times.

I will get mores specific when I get to the office today - but for now:

I started on Neurocybernetics but it was nearly impossible with her squirming. I gave her things to hold and that helped but decided to switch to Roshi even though I still don't always feel I understand it.

On Roshi she fell asleep - so eyes closed at C3C4 for much of the time. I trained TO down and then Beta/smr - lowering the hz slightly ie 13 - 18 Hz on the left and similarly on the right. The ground is a clip on the ear - usually right and the references are where-ever they stick - usually in the top of the ear but I try on the mastoids.

As for the genetics - definately - by the way both parents are brillant and the father is recognized nationally in his field. They felt she had no problems (denial?) but we've changed all that

Yes