OCD is gettin' ta me too; big time and then some!

[Guest guest]

I saved that message from (sorry I don't remember your name) the parent

of the 34 yr old who was critical of mom, denied HE had a problem,

etc.. It reminded me of my 12 yr. old, Ava.

I realize some of her obstinate, critical, defensive " know-it-all "

behavior has to do with her age. I expect a certain amount of this

behavior. But the intensity is exasperating. This has always been the

case, as when she was young and oppositional people would say " oh, the

terrible two's " or " my child is picky too " or whatever

reassuring/dismissive comment that would reinforce my fear that maybe it

WAS me being impatient or maybe I just needed to come up with better

parenting strategies. I did such a " good " job of being more patient and

becoming an expert in behavior strategies that it wasn't until she was 9

yrs old, and someone pointed out that I shouldn't still be working this

hard and maybe there was more going on, that I sought help and she was

diagnosed with OCD.

Ava's oppositional, know-it-all behavior is driving me nuts. She is

never wrong, she always knows a better way to do everything, and

everything I say needs just a bit of correction from her. She

hyper-scrutinizes me (always has) and then critiques my every word and

move. Sometimes I ignore it (mom, MOM, did you hear me?! MOM!)

sometimes I point to the door and say " Stop! Out! " (jeeze, other mom's

spend TIME with their kids!), then there's humor " gee, Ava, are you

basing that on YOUR 25 years of cooking experience and the many books

you've read on the subject? " (well it IS a better idea, said with smirky

smile) and sometimes I just LOSE it!

She has been obnoxious for the past 2 days. She gets defensive and

snotty and disrespectful. This drives my husband (her step-dad) crazy,

which complicates things all around. He has OCD too and one of the

" limits " I have set with him is that he cannot get on Ava about how

clean her room is, how clean she gets the dishes, how clean...well, you

get the picture. When his OCD is waxing his " clean " issues get very

big. Right now that is what is happening. Then our agreement about his

comments to her becomes harder to live with and he gets resentful. When

she is snotty and disrespectful to me, like she has been lately, he kind

of combines it into one big related problem: the " charge " he feels about

cleanliness and Ava fuels his reaction to her attitude (though he isn't

aware of it) and he gets outraged by her and then mad at ME. As in " she

has a big attitude problem and I can't even tell her to clean up around

here so I'm through dealing with her! " . He doesn't say this around her,

he knows to keep her out of this, but it makes him unavailable to help

me cope and he gets obnoxious too. He starts suggesting that what she

REALLY needs is some old time discipline blah blah blah; the " get a

bigger hammer " approach.

So I have to just wait until his OCD is waning again for him to be

himself and until then I have deal with Ava all by myself and the

atmosphere around here gets tense (understatement). Ava went to her

Dad's this morning. Clay made his " I'm through with her " announcement

and I'm going to spend the day doing whatever the h-ll I want to do

without either of them. I ain't talkin' to no one unless they're real

NICE to me!

In the meantime, I am STILL looking for a doctor to supervise Ava's

meds. And Ava remains convinced that she doesn't need any CBT because

she doesn't have a problem the world around her does (her mother, her

teachers, anyone who disagrees with her or is in her way etc).

Thanks for letting me vent.

Dana in NC

[Guest guest]

Hi Dana:

I want to ditto what Kathy said about how the teens find everything about

their parents obnoxious, shameful, disgraceful, etc. Both of my sons, the 34

year old with OCD son, and his 35 year old brother, went through that.

Problem with now is that he is still going through it, and that's not

the only way he's alot like a young adolescent. You are a wonderful mom, and

Ava is already diagnosed. Maybe Ava wont be still doing this in her

mid-thirties. (Not that my older son, without OCD (though I think he has

impulse disorder tendencies), isn't also still into it somewhat). Meantime

has been apologizing for his tantrum last week, and seems to really

feel bad about it. Of course he still insists that to participate in the OC

Foundation (I invited him to go to Chicago but he declined, so me and my

husband are going to wait till next year and try again) is taking a possible

" condition " and reifying it, making it more than it is. He says that focusing

on OCD is a form of hypochondria, and a sign of OCD. Wonderful logic. Thats

one of his many " reasons " for not taking medication, and denying that he has

this diagnosis or problem. Like Ava, also says that he doesnt have a

problem, that I have a problem. " I'm the only sane one in this family " he

says to me.

Lynn

[Guest guest]

HI Dana:

You might be surprised how much of Ava's difficult behavior is

age-appropriate. I also have a 16-year-old, Mark, who is basically a

sweetie but is going through a big know-it-all, parents are dorks big-time,

your can't ever do anything right, how embarrassing it is to be your kid

sort of time. I have read the book about " Get out of my life but first

take me and Cheryl to the Mall " . Although it is written at a very basic

level, it has a lot of wisdom about dealing with this age of kid.

Just know as someone who works with kids you have particularly good

child-management skills and this is a trying situation. The intensity may

well be related to OCD and is clearly causing a lot of stress at home. I

hope you have a plan to give yourself some relief away from the

confrontations to rejuvenate while OCD is holding sway and teenagerhood is

so paramount. Take care, aloha, Kathy (H)

kathyh@...

At 11:19 AM 07/22/2000 -0400, you wrote:

>I saved that message from (sorry I don't remember your name) the parent

>of the 34 yr old who was critical of mom, denied HE had a problem,

>etc.. It reminded me of my 12 yr. old, Ava.

>

>I realize some of her obstinate, critical, defensive " know-it-all "

>behavior has to do with her age. I expect a certain amount of this

>behavior. But the intensity is exasperating. This has always been the

>case, as when she was young and oppositional people would say " oh, the

>terrible two's " or " my child is picky too " or whatever

>reassuring/dismissive comment that would reinforce my fear that maybe it

>WAS me being impatient or maybe I just needed to come up with better

>parenting strategies. I did such a " good " job of being more patient and

>becoming an expert in behavior strategies that it wasn't until she was 9

>yrs old, and someone pointed out that I shouldn't still be working this

>hard and maybe there was more going on, that I sought help and she was

>diagnosed with OCD.

>

>Ava's oppositional, know-it-all behavior is driving me nuts. She is

>never wrong, she always knows a better way to do everything, and

>everything I say needs just a bit of correction from her. She

>hyper-scrutinizes me (always has) and then critiques my every word and

>move. Sometimes I ignore it (mom, MOM, did you hear me?! MOM!)

>sometimes I point to the door and say " Stop! Out! " (jeeze, other mom's

>spend TIME with their kids!), then there's humor " gee, Ava, are you

>basing that on YOUR 25 years of cooking experience and the many books

>you've read on the subject? " (well it IS a better idea, said with smirky

>smile) and sometimes I just LOSE it!

>

>She has been obnoxious for the past 2 days. She gets defensive and

>snotty and disrespectful. This drives my husband (her step-dad) crazy,

>which complicates things all around. He has OCD too and one of the

> " limits " I have set with him is that he cannot get on Ava about how

>clean her room is, how clean she gets the dishes, how clean...well, you

>get the picture. When his OCD is waxing his " clean " issues get very

>big. Right now that is what is happening. Then our agreement about his

>comments to her becomes harder to live with and he gets resentful. When

>she is snotty and disrespectful to me, like she has been lately, he kind

>of combines it into one big related problem: the " charge " he feels about

>cleanliness and Ava fuels his reaction to her attitude (though he isn't

>aware of it) and he gets outraged by her and then mad at ME. As in " she

>has a big attitude problem and I can't even tell her to clean up around

>here so I'm through dealing with her! " . He doesn't say this around her,

>he knows to keep her out of this, but it makes him unavailable to help

>me cope and he gets obnoxious too. He starts suggesting that what she

>REALLY needs is some old time discipline blah blah blah; the " get a

>bigger hammer " approach.

>

>So I have to just wait until his OCD is waning again for him to be

>himself and until then I have deal with Ava all by myself and the

>atmosphere around here gets tense (understatement). Ava went to her

>Dad's this morning. Clay made his " I'm through with her " announcement

>and I'm going to spend the day doing whatever the h-ll I want to do

>without either of them. I ain't talkin' to no one unless they're real

>NICE to me!

>

>In the meantime, I am STILL looking for a doctor to supervise Ava's

>meds. And Ava remains convinced that she doesn't need any CBT because

>she doesn't have a problem the world around her does (her mother, her

>teachers, anyone who disagrees with her or is in her way etc).

>

>Thanks for letting me vent.

>

>Dana in NC

[Guest guest]

Hi Dana:

Are you sure that Ava is not bothered by her OCD behaviors? I know our beloved

OCDers act as if everything is fine and dandy when they are in denial but it is

a hallmark of OCD that they get upset about having to do rituals, etc.

The OCD exacerbation of everything is hard to take but I guess I am the opposite

of you. I can tolerate the OCD driven stuff better than the age-appropriate

teen stuff usually. I think this is because I know, even with his good

treatment, it seems Steve will always have some of the OCD stuff and it is so

much harder on him than me. Also knowing the teen stuff is a phase I get

impatient for the phase to be concluded if it is unpleasant.

What you described was an incident at the church where Ava's social skills did

not help her behave appropriately in the setting. I am sure as a person working

with kids you are familiar with the work of Rick Lavoie re: social skills. I

was watching his video this weekend and he referred to doing a social skills

autopsy and this seems like a good technique for helping kids learn how to

behave more appropriately.

I think it is wonderful that our kids think they have invented sex and fashion

and good living. It helps us avoid answering some potentially embarrassing

questions about how we grew up and the bad decisions made during that time!

Take care, aloha, Kathy (H)

kathyh@...

You wrote:

The part of this that oCD exacerbates (or one of the many parts!) is

the intensity of the behavior, her self-absorption and her denial.

>

> She had to be at work with me the other day and I was in the kitchen putting

together the lunch (for 60 people), another teacher was getting the tray ready

to deliver it to the tables, a teacher was in fixing her plate for her break and

Ava was standing in the way doing a hand clap rhythm and wanting me to watch

her. I told her to get out of the kitchen (which is very small, in a church

basement w/no window or air conditioning btw ) and come

> back in 5 minutes. She said " but mom just watch this " I said " Ava, go " . But

she HAD to finish her hand clap and could not leave until it was " done " . I

finally yelled " OUT NOW! " and still had to kind of push her out. She got huffy

and resentful - that is the typical teen part.

>

> So that is why I say it is more complex than " typical teen " stuff. She does

her ocd driven things, which don't bother her at all, in fact she likes them,

and then has the typical teen reaction to anyone who stands in her way,

especially me. She will sneak into the bathroom to tweeze hair and then get mad

at ME when she has to rush to make up for the time. The tweezing ain't typical

teen; the getting mad at mom is.

>

> I do not mind the typical stuff so much. I am fed up with the ocd driven

behavior that is exacerbated by whatever developmental stage she is going

through. In fact, I think it is funny that Ava thinks I'm so un-hip. I tell

her that is my gift to her - she would NOT have wanted me for a mom back in my

hip days! And I think her know-it-all attitude about typical teen stuff is

amusing too...........after all she and her friends did invent

> sex and fashion, which was way nice of them dontcha think?

[Guest guest]

You might be surprised how much of Ava's difficult behavior is

age-appropriate. I also have a 16-year-old, Mark, who is basically a

sweetie but is going through a big know-it-all, parents are dorks big-time,

your can't ever do anything right, how embarrassing it is to be your kid

sort of time. I have read the book about "Get out of my life but first

take me and Cheryl to the Mall". Although it is written at a very basic

level, it has a lot of wisdom about dealing with this age of kid.

Yes, Kathy, I agree and I have read this book, which was very insightful

and helpful. The part of this that oCD exacerbates (or one of the

many parts!) is the intensity of the behavior, her self-absorption and

her denial.

She had to be at work with me the other day and I was in the kitchen

putting together the lunch (for 60 people), another teacher was getting

the tray ready to deliver it to the tables, a teacher was in fixing her

plate for her break and Ava was standing in the way doing a hand clap rhythm

and wanting me to watch her. I told her to get out of the kitchen

(which is very small, in a church basement w/no window or air conditioning

btw ) and come back in 5 minutes. She said"but mom just watch this"

I said "Ava, go" . But she HAD to finish her hand clap and could

not leave until it was "done". I finally yelled "OUT NOW!"

and still had to kind of push her out. She got huffy and resentful

- that is the typical teen part.

So that is why I say it is more complex than "typical teen" stuff.

She does her ocd driven things, which don't bother her at all, in fact

she likes them, and then has the typical teen reaction to anyone who stands

in her way, especially me. She will sneak into the bathroom to tweeze

hair and then get mad at ME when she has to rush to make up for the time.

The tweezing ain't typical teen; the getting mad at mom is.

I do not mind the typical stuff so much. I am fed up with

the ocd driven behavior that is exacerbated by whatever developmental stage

she is going through. In fact, I think it is funny that Ava thinks

I'm so un-hip. I tell her that is my gift to her - she would NOT

have wanted me for a mom back in my hip days! And I think her know-it-all

attitude about typical teen stuff is amusing too...........after all she

and her friends did invent sex and fashion, which was way nice of them

dontcha think?

Dana in NC

[Guest guest]

Hey Dana,

We were gone for the weekend so I'm just catching up. How are you, have

you had any time for yourself? Set those boundaries and keep yourself

sane!

I wish we were coming to the conference this year because I would love

for Ava and andra to meet. I'm convinced they are either soul mates

or twin daughters from different mothers.

andra will be 7 in a couple of weeks, but already thinks her parents

are big dorks, embarrassing and boring, and that every other family is

more cool than ours. Her entire view of her quality of life is formed

by what her friends have/do.

She is also going through a major period of denial about her OCD. I

wrote recently about her relapse and we just had a very discouraging

session with her CBT therapist, during which she told him that she

doesn't want to do therapy, is embarrassed to have OCD because none of

her friends have it, and just basically wishes the whole thing would go

away.

Sigh...

We are in for a fun-packed week because her therapist recommends that we

stop doing all that wonderful, supportive parenting designed to help her

have normal childhood experiences and just give her some time to

experience the consequences of letting OCD run the show.

Give me strength!!

Take it easy, Dana,

Lesli

[Guest guest]

Lesli,

you wrote: >We are in for a fun-packed week because her therapist

recommends that we stop doing all that wonderful, supportive parenting

designed to help her have normal childhood experiences and just give her

some time to experience the consequences of letting OCD run the show.<

You know what? I think the therapist is right! When the kids or yigal

think they can go it alone, we'll stop and let them experience their own

consequences. Sometimes peer pressure has helped overcome a compulsion, and

I've seen the most amazing cases of avoidance, not to mention serious

meltdowns!

For example, during the stage when tom 'didnt have a problem', he

constantly antaganized yigal (now we know it had to do contamination...)

Once, tom asked: " Is there anything in the plug? (reasurrance seeking) " Our

response had always been " no " but one time Yigal said " Yes! " because tom was

sooo obnoxious. It had the same effect as a monster coming out of the plug.

Yigal shrugged and walked away - leaving tom horrified. Hey, if you dont

have a problem what difference does ther answer make, eh? Tom had to decide

to acknowledge that there wasnt anything coming out of the plug, to overcome

the irrational thoughts, or to freak out and admit that he believed there

was something there. Tom chose to freak out. he screamed, physically had a

full blown meltdown and after spending a long time in his room, alone,

looking at the plug waiting for something to happen, finally begged me to

come and check with him so he could leave his room and admit that

'something' wasnt working in his brain.

Let andra gain some life experiences and see what happens. As long as

she is SAFE, it might help her. Do you think she could 'prove' to you she

doesnt have a problem by keeping a journal of what is going on and then

showing it to you later?

What kind of plans do you have? Will you go to the pool? meet friends?

perhaps go clothes shopping? a museum? How about getting her to help with

some cooking? ;o)

keep us posted - this should be interesting!! Any chance of coming on the

chat sunday night? andra shouldnt need you to help as much, right?

wendy, in canada

(aka tom calls me his worse nightmare b/c I know too much! ya right!)

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[Guest guest]

Lesli,

I sure wish you were coming to Chicago too. But maybe next year! I would love

for our girls to meet. And I have a feeling it would be " dejavu all over again "

for me :-).

This weekend turned out ok. Clay left on his motorcycle and spent the day

fixing his brother's car. When he came home he was in a better frame of mind

and we ordered chinese food and rented a movie. I think he just needed a break

from it all and then was able to get his thoughts in check. That is one of the

things he's worked on in CBT and it was pretty successful on Saturday because he

didn't raise his voice or say anything really ugly,

he gave himself a " time out " and came back with a different attitude. I had a

nice day because it was cloudy and overcast so I stayed in and read a book,

played on the computer, watched an old movie and just relaxed. I love having

the whole house to myself!

Now, back to the girls. One thing that was helpful when Ava was younger (and

she has ALWAYS been hyper-critical of me) is that I set limits about her

comments, as in " you may not comment on my appearance " , " you may not comment on

the food I prepared " etc.. The other thing was that I volunteered weekly in her

classroom from 2nd grade through 5th telling Greek myths. Not only does she

have a better understanding of greek mythology than some

college students but she got to see how her friends and classmates thought I was

great (I can be a very entertaining storyteller). On some level that informs

her overall opinion of me, just not in a way she would tell ME about.

I think it is a good idea to let andra experience some time w/o your help

with her OCD. I did this with Ava and her meds a few years ago. She didn't

want to take them and I told her I was not going to force her to but it was my

job to make sure she had good medical advice and followed it. So she and her

doctor made a list of criteria, or checkpoints to evaluate how successful she

was unmedicated (like how often she was sad or mad or

felt fragile etc) and she agreed she would report to him and they would decide

if she needed meds. It took about a month before she was back on them.

The thing that has always complicated setting limits for Ava is the way her dad

rescues her from the consequences of her decisions. He allows her to feel that

her ocd driven behavior is her point of view, or something she's entitled to.

She gets to make the decisions and boss him around and talk to him any way she

wants to and have tantrums and all that. She then brings that out of control

grandiosity to all other situations, including

school. She wants what she wants and rarely does the internal self talk about

" I can wait and it will be ok " that would calm her anxiety or lead to more

maturity. The intensity of her wants is somewhat ocd driven and somewhat her

nature and sometimes it's hard to tell the two apart. The partnership between

you and your husband will help in your ability to present a united front, which

will serve andra in the long run. Believe me!

Have fun this weekend.

Dana in NC