EMDR

[Guest guest]

My son's former CBT therapist tried some EMDR with Dan. It did not

seem particularly helpful, but if you have a trained EMDR therapist

available, it might be worth a try, especially in children who have

suffered trauma. At least it works quickly if it's going to and doesn't

have side effects.

Judy

Dana wrote:

>

>

>

> [eGroups] My Groups | Main Page | Start a

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>

> Is anyone familiar with a kind of therapy called EMDR? It is supposed

> to be beneficial to people with anxiety and PSTD, among other things.

> There is a website I'm in the process of checking out:

> http://www.emdr.com

>

> but I thought I would ask if anyone here is familiar with it too. The

> parenting consultant we see is also a very good therapist and it is

> something she does and suggested for Ava at some point. She also uses

> a

> version of the March protocol for her patients with ocd and she said

> there are some adaptations or techniques that EMDR trained people do

> for

> ocd as well.

>

> Dana in NC

>

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[Guest guest]

HI Dana:

I am not exactly familiar with EMDR but know a little bit re: EMDR and PTSD

and OCD. My sister, who has PTSD and MDD, has had EMDR treatments for her

PTSD and recommended this to me for Steve's OCD.

Steve has been to two therapists, one a psychiatrist, who are trained in

EMDR and neither used this for his OCD, but then they did not use E & RP

either! I believe both Dr. Claiborn and Dr. Grayson on the OCD-L are

trained in this and have written how EMDR is not effective for OCD. It

seems that EMDR is a little more out of favor than it used to be as a

treatment for anxiety disorders.

Since E & RP is an evidence-based tx for OCD and has been so effective for

Steve's OCD, I have never followed up with EMDR which seems a bit of a long

shot from my research. BTW, I have used a lot of non-traditional and

" alternative " treatments myself in dealing with cancer and have always been

open to them for Steve, if I think they have a chance of helping.

HOpe this helps. Take care, aloha, Kathy (H)

kathyh@...

At 03:49 PM 09/15/2000 -0400, you wrote:

>Is anyone familiar with a kind of therapy called EMDR? It is supposed

>to be beneficial to people with anxiety and PSTD, among other things.

>There is a website I'm in the process of checking out:

>http://www.emdr.com

>

>but I thought I would ask if anyone here is familiar with it too. The

>parenting consultant we see is also a very good therapist and it is

>something she does and suggested for Ava at some point. She also uses a

>version of the March protocol for her patients with ocd and she said

>there are some adaptations or techniques that EMDR trained people do for

>ocd as well.

>

>Dana in NC

>

[Guest guest]

What si EMDR?

Nici

[Guest guest]

Hello All,

There has been an excellent description of EMDR by Anne (I think), I just wanted

to put my two cents in. E/RP is the most effective treatment for OCD. However,

there are often mini-traumas, fragments of expereinces kids have had that play

into the hands of OCD. These fragments can be treated by EMDR. For example,

some of my kids have an OCD thought about throwing up, or choking it's not so

much a phobia, but an intrusive thought that hounds them much of the day that

they'll have bad luck or throw up. So E/RP for this involves risking " breaking

the rituals " not counting, or washing, or tapping to prevent the feared

situation- choking, throwing up. But also, these

kids may have in their history a memory that disturbs them about throwing up-

either themselves or witnessing someone else. In these cases, I'll use EMDR to

help work through the frightening distorted memories of what throwing up means.

Similarly, some kids have OCD and separation anxiety, they may have mini-traumas

about separating (a bad camp memory, disastrous sleepovers) or major(parent's

accident, a grandparent's death) where the separation fears become part of the

OCD. Targetting these traumas with EMDR helps them to put the memory into an

" in-active " file in their minds, rather than having it right there in the palm

of their hands all day long.

With trauma, kids are " stuck " at the worst part of the memory- " mom wasn't

there, I threw up " , whatever it may be. EMDR helps kids to go back into the

memory and finish the story- " mom came back, it was hard, but I am OK. " Even in

the case of abuse, or death, there is an end to a story, ... I survived. Once

the story is finished, the brain doesn't have to keep processing it to figure it

out, and it will leave the child alone.

So, EMDR can be helpful for the grist for the OCD mill, while in and of itself

it is not the active treatment for OCD.

Best wishes,

Tamar Chansky, Ph.D.

[Guest guest]

What is EMDR?

Nikki

[Guest guest]

Sounds very different, does it work? Is it like hypnosis or something. Thanks,

Nikki

p.s. Does anyone know where the conference is going to be held this time, I know Denver but where in Denver. If you know please let me know. Thanks, Tiff is excited thinking about already. My husband has been working in Osaka Japan since October 11 and has earned enough FF miles for our flight and also 5 nights at a Hyatt Regency and then I worked this weekend for the remainder of the money we need so I wanted to start looking into travel arrangements but I dont know where it will be.

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

Has EMDR been effective for you or anyone with OCD? It seemed like it could

be interesting for Sullivan since she is so reluctant to talk to about her

" worries " particularily with a therapist.

I think I may have found a female dr. in Santa Barbara and am very excited to

talk to her this week.

Is there some way I can lessen the emails I am getting from the support

group. I love it but it is nearly impossible to keep up with the sometimes 50

emails.

Thanks

Anne

[Guest guest]

Hi Nikki:

EMDR = Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing "

In its simplest form, the technique itself, involves an individual

1) holding in mind a representative image (pictures, sounds, feelings) of

" the problem, "

while

2) watching a clinician's left-right hand or finger movements.

Aloha, Kathy (H)

kathyh@...

At 05:43 PM 01/14/2001 EST, you wrote:

>What is EMDR?

>Nikki

[Guest guest]

HI Nikki:

What I have heard is that it will be at the Denver tt City Center.

YOu might want to confirm this with the OCF or the hotel. It will be great

to see you again and I hope we have more time to hang around and have fun.

Last time my GAD was in a waxing phase and I hope my current waning

continues for a long time. Take care, aloha, Kathy (h)

kathyh@...

At 07:04 PM 01/15/2001 EST, you wrote:

>Sounds very different, does it work? Is it like hypnosis or something.

>Thanks,

>Nikki

>p.s. Does anyone know where the conference is going to be held this time, I

>know Denver but where in Denver. If you know please let me know. Thanks,

Tiff

>is excited thinking about already. My husband has been working in Osaka

Japan

>since October 11 and has earned enough FF miles for our flight and also 5

>nights at a Hyatt Regency and then I worked this weekend for the remainder

of

>the money we need so I wanted to start looking into travel arrangements

but I

>dont know where it will be.

[Guest guest]

HI Anne:

According to the OCD experts I have had contact with EMDR is unfortuantely

not effective with OCD. Also I understand its effectiveness with PTSD is

now under review.

YOu may want to subscribe to the list as a digest version. That way you

only get one email each day and you can scan through and read what

interests you. I subscribe to a few other lists this way and it helps me

to cut down on my internet obsessions <VBG>. Good luck, take care, aloha,

Kathy (H)

kathyh@...

At 08:44 PM 01/15/2001 EST, you wrote:

>Kathy,

>Has EMDR been effective for you or anyone with OCD? It seemed like it could

>be interesting for Sullivan since she is so reluctant to talk to about her

> " worries " particularily with a therapist.

>I think I may have found a female dr. in Santa Barbara and am very excited

to

>talk to her this week.

>Is there some way I can lessen the emails I am getting from the support

>group. I love it but it is nearly impossible to keep up with the sometimes

50

>emails.

>Thanks

>Anne

[Guest guest]

Jule, Thank you so much for the info. I cant wait to see you again!

Nikki

[Guest guest]

Nikki:

The conference is at the Denver Marriott City Center.

Jule

[Guest guest]

Dear Anne,

Try going to the egroups site (www.) and accessing

. Then click on the word " modify " in the upper right corner.

This will allow you to change your subscription to a daily digest of all the

messages. Much easer to read.

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Thanks for sharing that. We nearly sent 7 year old Sullivan to a Dr who

" promised " to cure her OCD through EMDR. What a blessing I had this group to

consult and was steered away from it. We consequently we found a great

therapist who does CBT and ERP.

Thanks for the scoop.

Anne in Santa Barbara

[Guest guest]

For my own info what is EMDR - my oldest daughter is 12 and was diagonsised

with OCD about two years ago. She is in intermitent CBT with medication

(Prozac). I would like to see her wean away from the drugs at some point but

we need to make much more progress than we have.

Thanks.

Temie Seibert

[Guest guest]

HI Anne:

Anyone who promises to cure OCD should be viewed with care. Right now

cures don't happen, we talk of control of symptoms and living with OCD in

the background of our kids' lives. Sometimes there are full remissions of

symptoms, but this is not the typical course of the disorder. What good

news that you ahve found a knowledgeable therapist for Sullivan. Good

luck, please keep us posted about her progress, take care, aloha, Kathy (h)

kathyh@...

At 01:15 PM 01/31/2001 -0500, you wrote:

>Thanks for sharing that. We nearly sent 7 year old Sullivan to a Dr who

> " promised " to cure her OCD through EMDR. What a blessing I had this group

to

>consult and was steered away from it. We consequently we found a great

>therapist who does CBT and ERP.

>Thanks for the scoop.

>Anne in Santa Barbara

[Guest guest]

Ed, ,

I'm working with a Brasilian coleague who is, as Ed mentioned, an other competent EMDR practitioner.

He is interested in exploring the following scenario:

Running a Binaural Beat program with elements of Gamma and of memory Theta frequencies in the headfones of the person who is receiving the EMDR instructions.

We will be testing effectiveness with and without tapping. I'm excited!

Gamma was chosen due to the increased presence during REM and due to its fame as an integrative frequency across the cortex.

Low theta due to its increased presence during REM and due to its fame as a memory conducive frequency.

Be well,

EMDR

:

EMDR is Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. Read all about it at www.emdr.com and www.emdria.org . It is more extensively world-wide than Neuro and taught now in some graduate curricula. Works on recent or old traumatic, distressing or disturbing memories.

---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.713 / Virus Database: 469 - Release Date: 6/30/04

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Ed--

That is the best damned explanation for EMDR that I've ever seen. (But then, I don't get around much.

HH

[Guest guest]

Ed,

Thanks so much for providing the EMDR info..it sounds fascinating!

[Guest guest]

I have practiced EMDR for 11 years and want to also say "Bravo and thank you" to Ed for such a great explanation. I have found it to be a very powerful tool (sometimes too powerful if not done carefully). IME, whether to do EMDR or NFB first can differ depending on the client. I have had some clients who couldn't do any kind of psychotherapy until we got their physiology settled down thru NFB and others who didn't respond well to NFB until we did EMDR. Also, when a client gets "stuck" in either method, switching to the other for a bit seems to help get him/her unstuck. I have many times been very grateful that had both tools.

I would say to you NFB clinicians who aren't trained in EMDR, find a good EMDR practioner in your area, establish a relationship, and come to an agreement about how to mutually refer your clients.

Lynn Rutherford, MA, LPC Moulder <InHarmony1111@...> wrote:

Ed,

Thanks so much for providing the EMDR info..it sounds fascinating!

[Guest guest]

Well said Lynn! I work with a colleague who is EMDR trained and very good

at this technique. We frequently peer cases to decide which strategy might

be of safest and best benefit in evoking change that is tolerable. For both

of us, participants may come from over 80 miles for services and they have

to go home to work on a ranch or other self-employment with few accessible

emergency supports. We do not want high risk situations to develop

post-session with no help at hand.

Thanks,

Aliceann

LifeWorks Website: http://geocities.com/quietflow

Fast Current Blog: http://fastcurrent.blogspot.com

-------Original Message-------

....I would say to you NFB clinicians who aren't trained in EMDR, find a

good EMDR practioner in your area, establish a relationship, and come to an

agreement about how to mutually refer your clients.

Lynn Rutherford, MA, LPC

[Guest guest]

1) Beware of folks who begin a debate by saying they don't want to

debate.

2) Beware of people who can tell you things unequivocably.

3) " The eye movements(or other alternating stimuli) cause the

accessing from the amygdala and hippocampus, then facilitates

remediation from the 'higher' cognitive faculties. " This doesn't

even hold up as a metaphor; there is more involved in memory than the

amygdala and hippocampus.

4) I also was trained in EMD-R and have used since the early 90's.

5.) I also don't believe everything I see in print.

6. Why the need for EMD-R, I thought hypnosis was going to cure

everything :>

SDC>

> Having done EMDR for 11 years now, and having seen most of the

studies myself, I can tell you unequivocably 2 things:

>

> Thing one: Doesn't always work, sometimes doesn't really shorten

treatment time, but perhaps facilitates it a bit. Seems similar to

many other treatments in that regard.

>

> Thing two: If a client has indeed had a traumatic experience, if

the amygdala and hippocampus are still holding onto that experience

and it continues to affeThe eye movements(or other alternating

stimuli) cause the accessing from the amygdala and hippocampus, then

facilitates remediation from the 'higher' cognitive faculties. ct

thoughts, feelings and behavior, and if the client is willing to try

EMDR, AND if he or she sees someone who is competent with EMDR, then

stand back baby and witness something that kicks a**!.

>

> I have had numerous spouses, let alone clients, thank me

for 'restoring' their spouse to them. (Hey, it ain't me....I'm a

technician that knows what button to push...it's the human brain's

own corrective device that does the work!) The eye movements(or other

alternating stimuli) cause the accessing from the amygdala and

hippocampus, then facilitates remediation from the 'higher' cognitive

faculties. It is absolutely amazing and gratifying and if you ever

witness one of these sessions, you won't have trouble being a

believer in it's effectiveness.

>

> Now, you still may be skeptical...but that's OK. And I won't debate

it, because that would be rather pointless, but I don't have time for

relatively useless treatment strategies, nor do I believe everything

I read in print(studies, etc.)....I SEE what what works and

incorporate it into my multi-modality approach and witness for myself

whether something appears effective, before being willing to pass

judgment on it.

>

> Well, I've witnessed. Give me a Viet Nam Vet any day....it is soo

dam gratifyng to soo rapidly get them out of the quicksand and able

to enjoy life again. To within one or two sessions extinguish the

nightmares, restore peaceful sleep, reduce anxiety, elevate mood----

and often not have much to talk about in 10-12 sessions....after

they've had 40 years of licit and illicit dope, alcohol, divorces,

unemployment, counseling, group work, you name it and they were still

miserable.

>

>

> --

> Ed Langham

> Saginaw, MI

> edlangham@a...

[Guest guest]

I apologize for my seemingly cocky enthusiastic support for my own success with EMDR.

I'm sorry you obviously don't understand either A) how the amygdala and hippocampus hold onto traumatic memories, with the amygdala holding onto non-consciously remembered aspects and the hippocampus holding onto consciously remembered, but neither organ being able to think about that, because that's the job of the cerebral cortex, which will hopefully sooner or later be able to come on-line and tell the primitive pit bulls to drop their hypervigilance or continue to suffer flashbacks, nightmares or whatever else they're protectively and stubbornly hanging onto past their true due date as unresolved intrapsychic conflicts......or ....hmmm....what was B? Oh well, "A" probably covers it.

And I'm sorry it sounds as if you did not have luck with EMDR. Or hypnosis. Or whatever else you didn't have luck with. I hope you have luck with SOMEthing.....I don't remember you ever discussing what you DO have luck with. I've seen you slambasting other's opinions, but I honestly don't remember you discussing any triumphs. What's up with that?

Lastly, I'm sorry if I've been too confrontive.

Thanks,

ed

[Guest guest]

I really, really don't want to turn this into a contentious exchange,

but, yes, I am familiar with Kolks work. I'm also mindful of

his 'work' with MPD, belief in which is sort of a litmus test of

sorts for me. And again, all I wanted to do was report on some

solid, controlled research.

I agree with what Ed said above. This list is collaborative and I

almost feels disrespectful to be using it to brag about expertise and

grind theoretical axes.

And besides, the research I quoted did not indicate that EMD-R does

not work, it simply demonstrated that relaxation training works as

well (isn't relaxation the basis of A/T training? No one on this

list doubts the efficacy of A/T, yet as I recall there was a

replication of Penniston's results using peripheral BF). The

research has shown for years that the hand movements in EMD-R do not

supply any additional effect over and beyond the rest of the

protocol, indicating--it's likely--that it is the exposure componant,

combined with non-specific relationship factors and placebo effects.

This discussion reminds me how about three years ago a meta analysis

demonstrated pretty clearly that SSRI's are no more effective than

placebos. When ever I mentioned this to a psychiatrist or fellow

psychologist they would either just dismiss it `or argue, " I know the

study but I have seen SSRIs work. " Well, yea, I didn't say SSRI's

were not effective, they are as effective as placebos. Placebo power

is the power of the brain to affect itself, and isn't this pretty

much what EMD-R therapists claim they are doing? What's the argument?

> >

> >

> > I apologize for my seemingly cocky enthusiastic support for my

own

> success with EMDR.

> >

> > I'm sorry you obviously don't understand either A) how the

amygdala

> and hippocampus hold onto traumatic memories, with the amygdala

> holding onto non-consciously remembered aspects and the hippocampus

> holding onto consciously remembered, but neither organ being able

to

> think about that, because that's the job of the cerebral cortex,

> which will hopefully sooner or later be able to come on-line and

tell

> the primitive pit bulls to drop their hypervigilance or continue to

> suffer flashbacks, nightmares or whatever else they're protectively

> and stubbornly hanging onto past their true due date as unresolved

> intrapsychic conflicts...

[Guest guest]

Hi Ed (and others on this helful list!,

I really liked your narrative obout EMDR and NFB. I am studying EMDR

right now and have been doing NFB for about 1.5 years -- but I have

not yet worked with alpha/theta training. I have several clients who

show a T3/T4 disconnect (per the TLC assessment) and the negative

messages originating in non-repsonsive parenting are stubborn -- do

you have any recommendations for script development for clients who

will be doing the A/T training?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Warmly,

> :

>

> EMDR is Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. Read all

about it at www.emdr.com and www.emdria.org . It is more extensively

world-wide than Neuro and taught now in some graduate curricula.

Works on recent or old traumatic, distressing or disturbing memories.

There are two components, simplistically speaking: the actual memory

data (everything seen, felt, heard, smelled, touched, thought) and

then there is the " grip " the memory has on you. (could actually be

positive OR negative). The brain has it's own " self cleaning oven "

for this, during REM stage sleep, but it gets stuck, due to high

anxiety which causes the brain defense mechanism to rouse the dreamer

or abort that dream, thus the emotive material stays " stuck in the

open file " rather than shifted to the closed file, where it belongs.

Once the cognitive side of the brain is able to call off the brain's

pit bull and reassure it that danger is past, then the systemic high

stress state can " desensitize " allowing a return to equilibrium. No

more flashbacks, nightmares, sensitive triggers, depression, anxiety,

etc....whatever got built on the systemically " kept " trauma, or

unresolved intrapsychic conflict. The eyes, ears and intelligence can

now protect, rather than the hypervigilance. One to eight sessions,

usually, depending on severity and number of traumas. I can usually

restore a Viet Nam Vet to near normal functioning within 6 sessions,

especially if I combine treatment with Neurofeedback. EMDR rapidly

knocks down the brushpile, while NFB mows the lawn. BTW, " traumatic

memories " also includes memories of parental, peer or authority

figure shaming/put-downs/self-esteem destruction.

>

> It's sometimes almost like that DeNiro flick where the catatonics

come awake. Minus the regression. Once desensitized, the target

memories are permanently 'cold potatoes.' Something new could happen,

but then they know to get back in for rapid recovery.

>

> The eye movements, or other alternating stimuli, like knee taps or

auditory tones, " pings " the right and left frontal lobes, while the

memory material is accessed, and facilitates cognitive remediation of

the affective dilemma. Works as described, at least for me and other

competent EMDR practitioners.

>

>

> --

> Ed Langham

> Saginaw, MI

> edlangham@a...