Re: about social skills

September 16, 2000

Hi Crystal,

YOu wrote:

> My daughter is behind with her social skills as

> well and I was wondering if you could elaborate a bit on what you have done

> to work with her? At seven, does she enjoy other children and build

> relationships?

My daughter, andra, does enjoy other children very much. We

realized that she is an extrovert after she gained some ground against

OCD in treatment.

We were not able to find an appropriate social skills group for her last

year, so basically what we did is schedule lots and lots of play dates.

We had many more here than at other houses because people didn't

reciprocate as much as I had hoped, but it was worth it.

We set small goals for her and gradually built from there, starting with

very short play dates. Before each one, I discussed with andra

specifically what I expected from her in terms of behavior, and offered

rewards for her efforts. We also spent lots of time at places like the

play ground and the swimming pool, where she could play casually with

other children without having to build relationships. She has always

enjoyed dance classes, and those gave her another opportunity to observe

how kids interact with each other.

One of my biggest challenges during this time was to interfere less and

let her make her own mistakes, and then learn from them. She initially

chose children who weren't a good match for her, but has gradually

learned to identify those qualities she likes in a friend.

andra is in a unique foreign language learning program at her school

and the teachers have been phenomenal so far. Because of this I have

been able to enlist their aid in helping her through some rough social

spots, as well.

Well I see I'm blabbing on as usual so I'll close for now! But please

feel free to write if you have any other questions.

Take care,

Lesli (SF Bay)

September 17, 2000

Hi ,

Thanks for the info of social skills. My son is also behind in his

social skills, and I have been pretty much doing the same things. The best

my son did socially since the whole mess started was when he was in

residential treatment. He made friends there and is still in contact with

some of them. He says they accept him how he is, and kids at school make

fun of him. I will tell you before ocd, he was right on track with

socializing-did more of that than accademics. But he was also at a Quaker

School and now he is in the public school. I just keep encouraging him, and

yes it is hard to stay out of it-and if I overhear/see something awful, I'll

just discuss it with him later. But what do I know?? I am the mother of a

12 year old boy-and in his eyes, I do not know very much these days!! Hugs,

September 17, 2000

My 12 yr old daughter, Ava, has always had lots of friends and was very popular

in elementary school. I think this was because she was fun to play with, always

coming up with a zillion ideas for games, she let anyone play and she is very

funny. This was of course partly driven by her OCD in that her endless ideas

were like list making (she had 50 variations of the game tag, my favorite was

" tweety tag " where you had to go under the domed monkey bars and chirp is you

were tagged) and her desire to get the game " just so " led her to include the

needed number of players w/o regard to their social status.

I think she is running into more problems in middle school. Kids don't play so

much, they talk more. And the social pecking order is so elaborate and ever

changing for reasons hard to fathom. Ava has always noticed how a girl named

Kate has " followers " who try to dress and act like her and hang on her every

word. Ava watches this with a mixture of jealousy and revulsion. She used to

sit with this girl at lunch but then the table got too crowded and she doesn't

like to be squished so she switched tables. Ava is willing to give up a lot for

comfort! In 3rd grade she wouldn't eat with her best friend because the girl

chewed with her mouth open and she couldn't stand

to look at it. But she has mixed feelings about giving up her " rank " with this

popular girl,Kate.

Also, the annoying way Ava badgers me when she wants something (she is driven!)

is starting to affect her friendships as well, I think. The other day she told

me that she asked a friend what boy the friend likes and she said " I had to ask

50 times before she would answer!! If that had been Kate asking she would have

told after 2 or 3 times! " . My only comment was " 50 times is a lot, no one likes

to feel badgered " . Then I quickly picked up the phone to make a call so she

would have a moment to actually think about what I said, rather than an

opportunity to argue with me about my comment.

I am glad that I finally found someone to work with Ava's medications, maybe

upping her dose will help with some of her intensity. For now, Ava still has

friends, and has cultivated a lot of friendships with boys. She says she just

likes boys as friends a lot. What she doesn't realize is that because she is

very pretty and in the popular group of girls boys love to be seen with her and

friends with her and they accept more of her annoying behavior than girls do.

Middle school boys tend to be very tolerant in this way, I mean these are people

whose idea of fun is giving each other wedgies and laughing about farts (gotta

love middle school boys!). And, as I said, Ava

can be very funny. I think boys are her best audience.

Dana in NC

September 17, 2000

Thanks Lesli, Dana, and all of you for the ideas.

It's nice to hear about your daughters social lives since they are older

than mine. Because Ally is so young I'm fearful of what her life will be

like, especially in the relationship realm. She had a particularly bad

summer with anxiety and some of the kids that she had swimming lessons with,

now don't want to play with her. Seeing your child openly rejected is so

incredibly tough, although at this point, she doesn't seem to mind.

I have her enrolled in dance and gymnastics and she does really well. Being

with other children in a structured environment seems to work well for her.

She has always been chronically inflexible so routine is great for her. The

thing is that she's got to learn how to deal with others in an unstructured

situation and realize that she cannot control everything. Since she's only

4, I feel like we still have lots of time to work on it. Setting behavioral

goals for playdates and the 'greeting' game are both great ideas that I'm

going to try.

I still haven't decided what I'm going to do about finding a therapist. I

know we don't have anyone qualified in our area so I guess I'll start

searching the larger cities closest to us. Our first experience was so

disappointing that I'm just not looking forward to that again.

Thanks again,

Crystal

September 17, 2000

My daughter, also 4, does incredibly well playing with other special

needs kids. It's as though they all have a sixth sense about it.

She is in special ed. preschool where the kids are half typical, half

special needs, and she plays best with the autistic children. We

have a dear friend with a child around 's age who is also

autistic, and they are the best of friends. They seem to have so

much compassion for each other.

Just as food for thought, I'll pass on what 's psychologist

said--and that is to be very selective about which environments you

put a young child with anxiety in. I used to have in ballet

and gymnastics, and piano, etc. etc. I realized it was really too

much and she needed one consistent structured thing to do--not a

whole bunch of different environments to adjust to. For example, I

chose not to put in group swimming lessons, because I thought

it would be too stressful for her this year, so we did private

swimming lessons. Crystal, is your daughter in a preschool? If you

can find the right one, it will go a long way in helping social

skills. I realized all my daughter needs is one or two friends to

relate to... she doesn't have to be friends with everybody... Who

gets along with everyone anyway?) ...and I had to be selective about

who I tried to pair her with in play groups, etc. .. Also who I ended

up being paired with parent wise. It is best if the parents and the

children in the play groups are really informed, compassionate

people. If not, it is more a detriment than a help in socialization,

from my experience. Smaller groups seem to be better for kids with

OCD too. Hope some of this made sense. I'm very tired!

Stephany

September 17, 2000

Dear Stephany and Crystal~

My little boy is 2 (three on October 26th). All of the info. you are sharing with each other is helping me too! I have him starting a special ed preschool when he turns three, and our church preschool this Tuesday. I hope he makes friends there like your daughter has Stephany. Thanks to both of you for the ideas. His chronic inflexibility is what I worry about most. Speaking of which...Does anyone out there want to share how to stop playing games. You know - Ian and I start playing a game together, after awhile I no longer can play, and he goes crazy! He wants that repetition of play so badly. He has such a hard time transitioning from one thing to another. I would love some advice. Thank you all in advance. Joy (Ventura CA)

September 17, 2000

Hi Joy:

Have you read Dr. Ross Greene's book, " The Explosive Child " and Dr. Stanley

Greenspan's book " The Child with Special Needs, Encouraging Intellectual

and Emotional Growth " ? These books have helped me figure out how to deal

with the chronic inflexibility which is part of NBDs and how to reinforce

transitions with the least amount of meltdowns possible. Also when you are

changing something it can take a long time, keep at it, hang in there,

practice extreme patience and you will be rewarded.

Giving Steve lots of compliments and doing special things that say I love

you really help keeping him positive in outlook. Take care, aloha, Kathy (H)

kathyh@...

At 07:45 PM 09/17/2000 -0700, you wrote:

>

Dear Stephany and Crystal~

My little boy is 2 (three on October 26th). All of the info. you are

sharing with each other is helping me too! I have him starting a special

ed preschool when he turns three, and our church preschool this Tuesday. I

hope he makes friends there like your daughter has Stephany. Thanks to

both of you for the ideas. His chronic inflexibility is what I worry about

most. Speaking of which...Does anyone out there want to share how to stop

playing games. You know - Ian and I start playing a game together, after

awhile I no longer can play, and he goes crazy! He wants that repetition

of play so badly. He has such a hard time transitioning from one thing to

another. I would love some advice. Thank you all in advance. Joy

(Ventura CA)

September 17, 2000

----- Original Message -----

From: K & J

Does anyone out there want to share how to stop playing games. You know - Ian and I start playing a game together, after awhile I no longer can play, and he goes crazy! He wants that repetition of play so badly. He has such a hard time transitioning from one thing to another. I would love some advice. Thank you all in advance. Joy (Ventura CA)

Hi Joy, my daughter (6) has had "play with me" compulsions for over a year now. I have managed to extricate myself from these but my husband is still snagged, if he's anywhere around she is hard at him to play with her. Her extreme distress when we can't/won't is how we figured out that OCD was involved. Kel's worst time is when one thing has ended, the next has not yet begun, she's at loose ends and starts chanting "play, p-l-a-y play with me!!!"

I eased out of this compulsion by degrees, I told her what I was going to do and why, that of course I enjoyed playing with her but I could tell OCD was messing this up for us and taking the fun out of it for her, by making rules about it. When she'd wail "play with me" I would agree to, but tell her first I was going to empty the dishwasher, start a load of laundry, some short task, and ask her to help. Either that or she could get started on whatever she wanted us to do (coloring for example) while I did the task, so Kel had to wait a bit on this compulsion. I also told her up front that I'd play for 20 minutes and then I would have to do some other thing. Over time I increased the length of time she waited, and I stuck to the deal of "I'll play for X minutes and then I'm going to . . . whatever." I began brainstorming with her about what else she could do when she felt she "had" to play with me. This process caused her some distress but doing it slowly in a stepwise fashion it was doable.

Her Dad is reluctant to cause her any upset, plus has the added problem of only being around in the evenings when she's running on empty. He of course does want to spend time with her, just not stuck in the no-fun-for-anyone "play with me" compulsion. He has recently begun heading her off, hitting the door with some idea or suggestion of a fun thing to do, rather than wait for the play compulsion to hit. This is doing the compulsion "wrong" and just may be helpful, we'll see and I hope so.

Good luck with this one, it's wearing I know.

Kathy R. in Indiana

September 17, 2000

Kathy~

I've read "The Explosive Child," and it did really help with the quantity of Ian's meltdowns! I've not read the other book, but will take your reference and get right to it. Thank you. What did you mean by..."when your changing something, it can take a long time?" I am asking because chances are there is something I SHOULD be changing that I'm not.

Thank you Kathy,

Joy

September 17, 2000

Kathy in Indiana~

Wow! Thanks for the advice. I will have to do some creative thinking to adjust this to a two year old's understanding, but I think this just may work for us. I think I will set a timer for how long I will play, since his concept of time is pretty immature still. I guess I already do the "make him wait part" naturally. He is accepting of that already. So I just have the "how long were gonna play part" to work out. Jumping in and recommending a game first I will give a go too! Joy (Ventura CA)

-----

September 18, 2000

Hi everyone, this is soo funny, it jogged a memory with me too. From the time

Tiff was about 18months old (now 10yrs), if you rough housed with her (she

has a dad and lots of uncles who love to tickle and westle) anyway you could

not get her to stop after awhile. She would keep on keepin on. And EVERY time

it turn into having to raise my voice or threaten a time out to get her to

stop. I never understood it and it got to the point when dad would start this

before bed I would cringe as I did not like fussing at her and then putting

her to bed, I wanted that to be a time of peace. After literally years of

this we both got to the point we just wouldnt do it at all. It was kind of

sad because everyone enjoyed it to a point but then when enough was enough we

all new you wouldnt get her to stop without punishment. So we pretty much put

an end to it. She's 10now and dad does do it once in a while but guess what?

Its still the same. We were watching a home video a few months ago where she

was sitting on her uncles lap at about 20months old and he would blow his

cheeks up with air and she would use both hands and smack his cheeks to get

the air out well this went on and on and on and the more we watched the more

we realized she would smack harder and harder and the whole time she is

laughing hesterically. But it got to where her uncles cheeks were red and

sore, she wouldnt stop and once again we had to fuss at her to get her to

calm down and stop. I never really placed this with the ocd until now, its

like she's stuck there having fun and nothing else matters, even the pain of

others. She still does things alot without thinking at all of the

consequences, its very frustrating and I hope it gets better with age and

maturity because if not I fear for her future. Does anyone else have similar

situations or advice for anything I have mentioned? Have a great day!! Nikki

in O'town

September 18, 2000

In a message dated 9/17/00 10:22:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time,

klr@... writes:

<<

Does anyone out there want to share how to stop playing games. You know -

Ian and I start playing a game together, after awhile I no longer can play,

and he goes crazy! He wants that repetition of play so badly. He has such a

hard time transitioning from one thing to another. I would love some advice.

Thank you all in advance. Joy (Ventura CA)

>>

When Leigh did this, we set a timer for the length of time we could play, 30

min. or whatever. She liked the visible reminder of the timer and didnt

object to ending the game at the prescribed time.

Jay in Colorado

September 18, 2000

Joy (Ventura CA),

You asked about putting limitations on game playing? WIth such a young

child, there is no real concept of time so it may help if you use a timer or

a clock.

I suggest that you clearly identify how long you will play together by

explaining when the clock rings, its time up. It helps if you give warnings

such as: 5 more minutes and then we stop, 2 more minutes, etc. and then stop

when your time is up. Remember to encourage Ian when he meets this goal -

lots of positive reinforcements! Reward works so well!!

good luck - wendy, in canada

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September 18, 2000

This is an interesting thread. Ava has always been demanding about

games but I always saw it as a general trait, not as a "play with me" compulsion.

These posts have given me new insight about this. I pretty much do

the making her wait, setting a time limit thing and then if she's upset

when whatever it is is over, I just do an active listening/setting limits

technique like this : you really don't like when games end, you sound

disappointed, I hear what you want do you hear what I'm telling you?,

I'm trusting that you will think of something to do perhaps from the list

we made of things you can do by yourself, you can make those mad sounds

but not near my ears.........................one or all of these phrases

will either stop her, redirect her or piss her off but stop her anyway.

When she's really agitated and won't be redirected she yells and calls

this my "preschool teacher talk", which is another way of saying I've set

a limit in a way she can't get around or argue with.

Her Dad, from whom I'm divorced, always gives in to these play with

me compulsions and she is constantly trying to engage him. When we

went to the open house at her school she was "at" him walking down the

hall, sitting in her classroom etc. to play "rock paper scissors", which

he did. It was very annoying. He'd ask me a question and then

start playing when I was answering. They did it when the teacher

was talking. Of course I stopped answering his questions and then

I made Ava sit somewhere else (w/o either of them knowing what I was doing).

This is one of the things his girlfriend used to complain to me about,

how he and Ava would play video games or "rock paper scissors" or other

distracting type games and they would exclude her and she would get mad

and leave. She always thought this was Ava's fault and was jealous

of the attention Tim was giving her. I had forgotten about this,

so I'm glad this thread jogged my memory so I can remind her of this at

our next parenting session with the consultant, since she is now maintaining

that Ava is "normal" and maybe I'm the one making her anxious.

Getting back to games, Ava often tries to guilt trip me into playing

with her "other families do things together like games". Then when

we do play, after about 20 minutes she starts being hard to play with.

I can't believe I never saw the OCD in this before! She'll start

"forgetting" it's her turn and require a prompt every time (a ritual?)

then she'll count my spaces or cards to make sure I'm not cheating (hypervigilent

about ME and yet forgets her own turn) then she'll argue with all my moves.

Boy, ya learn something new every day around here!

Dana in NC

Kathy wrote:

----- Original Message -----

From:

K & J

Does

anyone out there want to share how to stop playing games. You know

- Ian and I start playing a game together, after awhile I no longer can

play, and he goes crazy! He wants that repetition of play so badly.

He has such a hard time transitioning from one thing to another.

I would love some advice. Thank you all in advance. Joy (Ventura

CA)Hi

Joy, my daughter (6) has had "play with me" compulsions for over a year

now. I have managed to extricate myself from these but my husband

is still snagged, if he's anywhere around she is hard at him to play with

her. Her extreme distress when we can't/won't is how we figured out

that OCD was involved. Kel's worst time is when one thing has ended,

the next has not yet begun, she's at loose ends and starts chanting "play,

p-l-a-y play with me!!!"I

eased out of this compulsion by degrees, I told her what I was going to

do and why, that of course I enjoyed playing with her but I could tell

OCD was messing this up for us and taking the fun out of it for her, by

making rules about it. When she'd wail "play with me" I would agree

to, but tell her first I was going to empty the dishwasher, start a load

of laundry, some short task, and ask her to help. Either that or

she could get started on whatever she wanted us to do (coloring for example)

while I did the task, so Kel had to wait a bit on this compulsion.

I also told her up front that I'd play for 20 minutes and then I would

have to do some other thing. Over time I increased the length of

time she waited, and I stuck to the deal of "I'll play for X minutes and

then I'm going to . . . whatever." I began brainstorming with her

about what else she could do when she felt she "had" to play with me.

This process caused her some distress but doing it slowly in a stepwise

fashion it was doable. Her

Dad is reluctant to cause her any upset, plus has the added problem of

only being around in the evenings when she's running on empty. He

of course does want to spend time with her, just not stuck in the no-fun-for-anyone

"play with me" compulsion. He has recently begun heading her off,

hitting the door with some idea or suggestion of a fun thing to do, rather

than wait for the play compulsion to hit. This is doing the compulsion

"wrong" and just may be helpful, we'll see and I hope so.Good

luck with this one, it's wearing I know.Kathy

R. in Indiana

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September 18, 2000

Stephany,

Thanks for the input. I agree with what your daughters therapist says about

where you put children with anxiety. The ballet and gymnastics classes have

been great for her, she loves them and she doesn't seem anxious there at

all. It may be because she is good at both these activities and they make

her feel confident. Swimming lessons was a completely different story,

anxiety from the time we arrived until the time we left.

I guess I struggle with the right balance of pushing her to face her fears

and pushing her too hard. At 4, though, I try not to push too much of

anything.

My daughter goes to a private Catholic preschool and last year her teacher

complained to me that Allyson didn't listen or pay attention to much of

anything. She even asked me to have her hearing checked. This year she has

the same teacher and she says that Ally is much more attentive and I think

things are going much better on the social front as well. This morning she

even comforted two other children who were crying!! She is so unpredictable!

I agree that you must be selective in who you pair her up with to play and

who that pairs you up with parent-wise. I've been in situations where the

other mother thinks that if I would simply discipline Ally when she performs

her rituals, then they would go away. It's very difficult for other people

to understand this problem.

Thanks again for the input!