Re: alpha-theta for musicians

[Guest guest]

Regina,

iSNR (http://snr-jnt.org) stands for the international Society for Neuronal Regulation, probably the primary professional group for neurofeedback.

Have you assessed your client's brain to see that coherence is actually low? The fact that alpha is higher in one area than in another doesn't mean that coherence is low. Coherence is not related to amplitude or phase. It is a separate measure entirely. If you assess coherence between P3 and P4, and it is between about 40 and 70 with eyes closed, coherence is not necessarily the problem.

It would also be important to see what the relationship between Alpha and Theta is at P3 and P4. If, with eyes closed, she sustains an A/T ratio of 1.5 or higher (alpha is 1.5 times or more higher than theta), and if that ratio drops to about 1.0 or below when she opens her eyes, then alpha is not a problem. If she shows a ratio with eyes closed below 1.0, then I would not try Alpha/Theta training. If she can't produce alpha in excess of theta with eyes closed, she'll end up doing theta/theta training.

It is always important, as I'm sure you know, to plan your training not to achieve a specific effect but to respond to an overall activation pattern and its results. You mention that she has difficult background problems, which I assume are not related to playing the piano. If she has excessive beta and/or beta/high beta in certain areas, that too would limit her ability to shift into an alpha state, and training alpha might either have no effect or actually result in rebounds. Light/sound machines can be helpful in supporting the training once you are clear what it is you are training.

I've e-mailed the group a reference for the pianist A/T study by Dr.Gruzelier. Its main point was that, by putting pianists more in touch with their subconscious selves the training made them better able to express those elements artisically when they played, and that improved the quality of their playing.

Pete

AW: alpha-theta for musicians

Dear ,

I would be very interested in this study. I am working with a pianist - with difficult background problems - that feels always blocked when she is about to get in flow playing free. Similar experience she had wi´th meditations. i am currently working on alpha coherence with her since there is much more alpha in P3 than in P4. And in my impression not yet enough to go in alpha theta training. I would like to know whether its worth already to go to alpha-theta-training - solving the alpha coherence there.

A question from my client is also in how far she could support her training by using a "light and sound -system" at home

Sorry, I am absolutely lost with abreviations - whats iSNR ?- I would be happy to find out more about this study in England.

Thanks

Regina

[Guest guest]

Pete,

You said, " If she shows a ratio with eyes closed below 1.0, then I would not try Alpha/Theta training." Do you mean parietally or other sites, as well, need the A/T ratio to be 1.0 or higher? And, then, I guess, to get there, train alpha up at those other sites?

Also, in another communique, you said I could train my teen's beta at C3 up to "as high as 19-22 with a teenager." What is the range for an adult, say, 50 years old?

Maureen

AW: alpha-theta for musicians

Dear ,

I would be very interested in this study. I am working with a pianist - with difficult background problems - that feels always blocked when she is about to get in flow playing free. Similar experience she had wi´th meditations. i am currently working on alpha coherence with her since there is much more alpha in P3 than in P4. And in my impression not yet enough to go in alpha theta training. I would like to know whether its worth already to go to alpha-theta-training - solving the alpha coherence there.

A question from my client is also in how far she could support her training by using a "light and sound -system" at home

Sorry, I am absolutely lost with abreviations - whats iSNR ?- I would be happy to find out more about this study in England.

Thanks

Regina

[Guest guest]

Maureen,

With all due respect to Val Brown, who trains A/T at C3 and C4, it is most often done at O1 or P4. Those are the places I would focus on. The EC A/T ratio forward of the midline is not necessarily expected to be above 1.0 (though it often is among meditators). However, behind the midline, I would not do A/T with a client who cannot produce a significant alpha differential.

Remember that A/T is a process of quieting the mind and entering the observer state related to dominant alpha, then carrying that state down to around 7Hz, where visualization, memory and subconscious processes combine. A client who produces dominant theta is fine at going into the subconscious, but he cannot do so with the awareness that comes from the alpha/observer state.

Also remember that "theta" in A/T is primarily around 7 Hz, not down in the 3-5 Hz range. In most cases, you want to keep a client from sliding down into the very slow theta ranges--at least until you and the client are pretty comfortable with the process and the material being processed. The slower frequencies are where clients can abreact or fall asleep. A client who is dominated by theta (can't produce much alpha) is unlikely to be strong in the higher theta ranges; they are much more likely to be hanging out in slower frequencies.

The useful range of beta for most folks is from around 15 to around 22 Hz. Studies as far back as the 70's have shown that some people experience the faster range (18-22 Hz) as intense focus, curiousity and engagement; others experience it as anxious and obsessive. Above 22 Hz it's pretty safe to say that the experience will not be good, no matter the age. Because the brain speeds up with age, with younger children you may have to drop the beta frequency below 15-18 Hz to find a frequency that results in focus without buzzing. By the age of 15, though, in my experience some kids do better at 15-18, some at 18-22 and some elsewhere in that range.

Pete

Re: alpha-theta for musicians

Pete,

You said, " If she shows a ratio with eyes closed below 1.0, then I would not try Alpha/Theta training." Do you mean parietally or other sites, as well, need the A/T ratio to be 1.0 or higher? And, then, I guess, to get there, train alpha up at those other sites?

Also, in another communique, you said I could train my teen's beta at C3 up to "as high as 19-22 with a teenager." What is the range for an adult, say, 50 years old?

Maureen

[Guest guest]

Pete,

If I remember it right, you use to recommend the

site for A/T O1 or P3.

It should be the dominant side, but O1 is

difficult when the client recline.

Also some clients don’t feel it right with your AT design of BE.

They say they cannot go deep enough to feel it

right.

How low do you think I can set the frequency of

theta?

Jo Sato

-----Original

Message-----

From: Van Deusen

[mailto:pvdtlc@...]

Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003

10:37 AM

Subject: Re:

alpha-theta for musicians

Maureen,

With

all due respect to Val Brown, who trains A/T at C3 and C4, it is most often

done at O1 or P4. Those are the places I would focus on. The EC

A/T ratio forward of the midline is not necessarily expected to be above

1.0 (though it often is among meditators). However, behind the midline, I

would not do A/T with a client who cannot produce a significant alpha

differential.

Remember

that A/T is a process of quieting the mind and entering the observer state

related to dominant alpha, then carrying that state down to around 7Hz, where

visualization, memory and subconscious processes combine. A client who

produces dominant theta is fine at going into the subconscious, but he cannot

do so with the awareness that comes from the alpha/observer state.

Also

remember that " theta " in A/T is primarily around 7 Hz, not down in

the 3-5 Hz range. In most cases, you want to keep a client from sliding

down into the very slow theta ranges--at least until you and the client are

pretty comfortable with the process and the material being processed. The

slower frequencies are where clients can abreact or fall asleep. A client

who is dominated by theta (can't produce much alpha) is unlikely to be strong

in the higher theta ranges; they are much more likely to be hanging out in

slower frequencies.

The

useful range of beta for most folks is from around 15 to around 22 Hz.

Studies as far back as the 70's have shown that some people experience the

faster range (18-22 Hz) as intense focus, curiousity and engagement;

others experience it as anxious and obsessive. Above 22 Hz it's pretty

safe to say that the experience will not be good, no matter the age.

Because the brain speeds up with age, with younger children you may have to

drop the beta frequency below 15-18 Hz to find a frequency that results in

focus without buzzing. By the age of 15, though, in my experience some

kids do better at 15-18, some at 18-22 and some elsewhere in that range.

Pete

-----

Original Message -----

From: Maureen McCarren

Sent: Saturday, December 27,

2003 7:45 PM

Subject: Re:

alpha-theta for musicians

Pete,

You

said, "

If she shows a ratio with eyes closed below 1.0, then I would not try

Alpha/Theta training. " Do you mean parietally or other sites, as

well, need the A/T ratio to be 1.0 or higher? And, then, I guess, to get

there, train alpha up at those other sites?

Also,

in another communique, you said I could train my teen's beta at C3 up to

" as high as 19-22 with a teenager. " What is the range for an

adult, say, 50 years old?

Maureen

[Guest guest]

Jo

I believe Pete was talking about A/T most often being done at 01

... or P4 (not

p3). I could suggest maybe one of those neck pillows that keep pressure

off the back of the head. I’m not sure I understand what you mean

by “they can’t go deep enough”. I might suggest they’re

experiencing something similar to my first A/T experiences. I meditated

for years (now I have some understanding of what was really happning),

since my beta-hi-beta were high, and my theta/beta ratios were enormous.

I would start to meditate and most often went directly to sleep (unfortunately

I snore, and the group I was with hated it). My belief now is that for

all those years, I could not effectively

produce alpha states for any period of time (let alone the crossover). As

soon as my brain would try to go there, it would drop into low theta, and then

sleep. So I was really staying in hi-alpha, or maybe even SMR.

When I did my first TLC assessment in 2002, My theta beta ratios and

alpha theta ratios were such that I didn’t stand a chance of doing A/T

work. I’m happy to say I did my first one about 2 weeks ago, and

yes, it was difficult to maintain the crossover frequency, but to me that was

the wonderful challenge to my brain.

It seems to me if you raise the frequency, then you’re not going

to get the movement from alpha to theta and back which I understand is the

desired effect. I believe there is a study also that if you keep the

frequency at 4 to 6, you’ll be in the perfect state for hypnotic

suggestion, which also suggests that there is no movement from the subconscious

to the conscious. I don’t know what others have to say.

I am interested from those who know the Penniston work if the addiction

protocols called for some “basic” work before beginning A/T. I

would believe that the “alcoholic brain” would definitely have high

theta/beta ratios. Any comments from the group?

[Guest guest]

Regina, Pete, everyone

I enjoyed your questions about A/T which made me think more about

questions we’ve discussed in the Charlottesville

group. In almost every child I see (abuse/neglect/trauma) I see extremely

high beta/hi-beta usually with a big differential at T3/T4. I suppose

some of the differential could be due to being children and still developing

(???) .. Robin, on the other hand, sees adult trauma victims and rarely sees

the differential (I think Mark Waller also said clients he felt were

disconnected didn’t always show T3/T4 differences but he believed they

were still there. You pointed out your client had done 3 years of trauma

work which she felt was successful. My belief is that in her mind she is

right and yet the brain patterns still exist that could make her brain less

efficient.

1)

What I guess I’m getting at is the question

can the cognitive work resolve the trauma, but the brain patterning was so

strong, even with years of the new cognitions there is little change.

2)

We talked about disassociation also, but then I wondered

would the hippocampal disconnect with T3/T4 hi-beta % and/or differential actually

be a form of disassociation, or would the extremely high theta-delta person be

more likely to fit classic disassociation since they are noted being highly

hypnotizable?

Thanks for giving my ADhD mind a workout Regina.

·

[Guest guest]

Dan

Penniston did GSR and frontalis EMG downtraining prior to AT. Bill

always does SMR uptraining before AT. He advocates at least 20

sessions of " fast frequency " work. I usually do whatever the

personneeds and segue into At when things seem stable or quieted down.

On Dec 29, 2003, at 7:53 AM, Key wrote:

Jo

 

I believe Pete was talking about A/T most often being done at 01  ..

orP4 (not p3).  I could suggest maybe one of those neck pillows that

keep pressure off the back of the head.  I’m not sure I understand what

you mean by “they can’t go deep enough”.  I might suggest they’re

experiencing something similar to my first A/T experiences.  I

meditated for years (now I have some understanding of what was really

 happning), since my beta-hi-beta were high, and my theta/beta ratios

were enormous.  I would start to meditate and most often went directly

to sleep (unfortunately I snore, and the group I was with hated it). 

My belief now is that for all those years, I could noteffectively

produce alpha states for any period of time (let alone the crossover). 

As soon as my brain would try to go there, it would drop into low

theta, and then sleep.  So I was really staying in hi-alpha, or maybe

even SMR.

 

When I did my first TLC assessment in 2002, My theta beta ratios and

alpha theta ratios were such that I didn’t stand a chance of doing A/T

work.  I’m happy to say I did my first one about 2 weeks ago, and yes,

it was difficult to maintain the crossover frequency, but to me that

was the wonderful challenge to my brain.  

 

It seems to me if you raise the frequency, then you’re not going to get

the movement from alpha to theta and back which I understand is the

desired effect.  I believe there is a study also that if you keep the

frequency at 4 to 6, you’ll be in the perfect state for hypnotic

suggestion, which also suggests that there is no movement from the

subconscious to the conscious.  I don’t know what others have to say.

 

I am interested from those who know the Penniston work if the addiction

protocols called for some “basic” work before beginning A/T.  I would

believe that the “alcoholic brain” would definitely have high

theta/beta ratios.  Any comments from the group?

 

<image.tiff> 

[Guest guest]

,

The theta is set 4-7Hz in BrainMaster and 6-8 Hz

with Pete’s design for BioE.

Pete’s design also inhibit 2-5 Hz.

My clients are accustomed to be hypnotized.

So A/T seems inducing hypnosis but not quite

with Pete’s.

And I want to lower the frequency of theta to 4-7

or so.

Maybe Pete’s intention is to avoid abreactions but for some clients you don’t have to worry about it.

Do you use the site O1?

Jo

-----Original

Message-----

From: Key

[mailto:danielkey@...]

Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003

9:54 PM

Subject: RE:

alpha-theta for musicians

Jo

I

believe Pete was talking about A/T most often being done at 01 .. or P4 (not

p3). I could suggest maybe one of those neck pillows that keep pressure

off the back of the head. I’m not sure I understand what you mean

by “they can’t go deep enough”. I might suggest

they’re experiencing something similar to my first A/T experiences.

I meditated for years (now I have some understanding of what was really

happning), since my beta-hi-beta were high, and my theta/beta ratios were

enormous. I would start to meditate and most often went directly to sleep

(unfortunately I snore, and the group I was with hated it). My belief now

is that for all those years, I could not

effectively produce alpha states for any period of time (let alone the

crossover). As soon as my brain would try to go there, it would drop into

low theta, and then sleep. So I was really staying in hi-alpha, or maybe

even SMR.

When I

did my first TLC assessment in 2002, My theta beta ratios and alpha theta

ratios were such that I didn’t stand a chance of doing A/T work.

I’m happy to say I did my first one about 2 weeks ago, and yes, it

was difficult to maintain the crossover frequency, but to me that was the

wonderful challenge to my brain.

It

seems to me if you raise the frequency, then you’re not going to get the

movement from alpha to theta and back which I understand is the desired

effect. I believe there is a study also that if you keep the frequency at

4 to 6, you’ll be in the perfect state for hypnotic suggestion, which

also suggests that there is no movement from the subconscious to the conscious.

I don’t know what others have to say.

I am

interested from those who know the Penniston work if the addiction protocols

called for some “basic” work before beginning A/T. I would

believe that the “alcoholic brain” would definitely have high

theta/beta ratios. Any comments from the group?

[Guest guest]

Jo and ,

I just ask people who will be doing A/T to bring headbands to their sessions (those elastic sweatbands tennis players wear). After the leads are on the head, I just put the band on, so it holds the O1 electrode in place. Works well with T3, T4 and Fp sites as well.

One of the biggest "no-no"'s of A/T training is that the trainer shouldn't "push" the client. A/T is a process, not a quick-hit 10-minute enlightenment technology (of which there are already more than enough). Clients go where they go and they go at their own speed. Here, more than in almost any other protocol, you have to put aside your desire to "make it happen". It is nearly impossible to STAY in crossover. That's why it's called crossover. Most clients will go back and forth across the line: up into alpha, back down into high theta, back up into alpha. When they drift down into the very slow speeds, then the chances of their coming back are slim. Sleep or abreaction are the likely outcomes.

As for the alcoholic brain, it is commonly distinguished by very LOW T/B ratios. Alcoholics are into denial. Denial of what? Of subconscious material. Theta is subconscious. Alcoholics don't customarily go there. They also tend to have low levels of alpha. Alcohol consumption (early in the process) tends to bump up alpha, resulting in that sense of wonderful ease that is so rare for alcoholics. Teaching them to relax, as mentioned in his post, with temp or GSR (didn't remember that they used GSR) was the first step toward getting them into alpha.

Have a great new year!

Pete

RE: alpha-theta for musicians

Jo

I believe Pete was talking about A/T most often being done at 01 .. or P4 (not p3). I could suggest maybe one of those neck pillows that keep pressure off the back of the head. I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “they can’t go deep enough”. I might suggest they’re experiencing something similar to my first A/T experiences. I meditated for years (now I have some understanding of what was really happning), since my beta-hi-beta were high, and my theta/beta ratios were enormous. I would start to meditate and most often went directly to sleep (unfortunately I snore, and the group I was with hated it). My belief now is that for all those years, I could not effectively produce alpha states for any period of time (let alone the crossover). As soon as my brain would try to go there, it would drop into low theta, and then sleep. So I was really staying in hi-alpha, or maybe even SMR.

When I did my first TLC assessment in 2002, My theta beta ratios and alpha theta ratios were such that I didn’t stand a chance of doing A/T work. I’m happy to say I did my first one about 2 weeks ago, and yes, it was difficult to maintain the crossover frequency, but to me that was the wonderful challenge to my brain.

It seems to me if you raise the frequency, then you’re not going to get the movement from alpha to theta and back which I understand is the desired effect. I believe there is a study also that if you keep the frequency at 4 to 6, you’ll be in the perfect state for hypnotic suggestion, which also suggests that there is no movement from the subconscious to the conscious. I don’t know what others have to say.

I am interested from those who know the Penniston work if the addiction protocols called for some “basic” work before beginning A/T. I would believe that the “alcoholic brain” would definitely have high theta/beta ratios. Any comments from the group?

[Guest guest]

Regina,

Training down fast activity in the back is fine, but I have found it is important that the client have good alpha in back for this to work (e.g. not INCREASE anxiety). If her alpha/theta ratio at P4 and P3 is about 1.5 with eyes closed, then you'll likely have better results training down the fast activity.

People have very different responses to Alpha up/Theta down and alpha coherence protocols. Some love one and do well at it; others prefer the other option. I try both (unless alpha coherence is already up around 70 with eyes closed) and go with what they like.

You could also try at P4/A2 alpha up and beta down.

Sorry for the long delay in responding.

Pete

AW: alpha-theta for musicians

Dear Pete and ,

Thanks for your replys.

Pete, I have done an assessment and rechecked it with your comments. It looks like front /back reversal (fitting with her tension headaches, negative thinking, anxiety and tiredness). There is a high "high beta temporal (fitting with her early abuse - she thinks to have worked this all up in three years therapy).

I started at T3 and no matter what the goal is high beta decreases dramatically within the session from beta = high beta > SMR to beta > SMR > high beta with an overall decreas in signal. I had more the fealing that the high beta seen in the assessment is the first reaction to any new situation and she is able to calm it down rather quickly.

Next we looked at the reversal - there is too much beta in the back (most pronounced eye closed) and too much theta in front (can only say for eye closed do to strong eye blink artefacts with contact lenses). We tried alpha up (from Theta > alpha to theta = or< alpha) which helped reducing the beta and high beta. It seemed that it was best with increased alpha coherence so we tried a coherence setting which seemed very comfortable but didnt actually give so good results. Alpha/theta was only 1.5 after some training time nd the first 5-10 min of the session more around 1 (eyes closed). alpha Coherence was in average 35 ...

Do you think its worth carrying on with alpha-training P3 and P4 to get beta down? or do we have to adress beta directly or maybe squash high frequencies in P? or train theta over beta ratio up (i didnt yet work out a ratio protocol with bioexplorer) ?

Thanks for your help.

Regina