Re: incomplete or no ingredient list pet peeve

[Guest guest]

Hey, I just caught this in my inbox. I have a few comments that might give a

different perspective. Websites are not product labels, and there is no legal,

moral, ethical, or business responsibility to provide ANY ingredient information

on websites. That FDA regulation for cosmetics, or soap making cosmetic claims,

or soap like cleansers only applies to the actual product label that the FPLA

also regulates.

Websites are a purely marketing forum for sales. Stating just the oils would be

completely appropriate, with the sodium hydroxide listed only on the product

label. However, there is nothing WRONG with listing the sodium hydroxide on the

website either,

You will also see a similar supposed 'transgression' regarding EO and FO. Some

websites simply state " fragrance " for the scent of their Essential oil based

products. I see many crafters crying foul, thinkging this is false advertising.

It is not. When Essential oils are used as fragrance/scent, they legally can be

listed simply as " fragrance " or as " parfum " . In the EU they will be required to

list all the constituents of that natural or synthetic based fragrance material

on the ingredient list also. But, if essential oils are being used for the sole

purpose of scenting the product, legally the blend or scent material can be

simply listed as " fragrance " or " parfum " and they are completely correct and

completely legal.

People unfamiliar with the FD & C Act and the labeling laws might not know this or

like this, but it does not mean the business is doing anything wrong.

Hope that helps!

Bloom

Southern Soapers

http://www.southernsoapers.com

>

>

> From: byrnebunch <ByrneBunch@...>

> Subject: Re: Re: incomplete or no ingredient list pet peeve

>

> Date: Monday, November 2, 2009, 11:10 PM

>

>

>  

>

>

>

> I share some of your concerns, especially regarding what appears to be

improper preservation and drug claims, which reminds me that I have to figure

out how to get into my site to check out my products! LOL

>

> As far as lye not being listed, the regulations do not require the ingredients

of soap and cosmetics to be listed on advertising, including websites, so there

are no violations in not listing ingredients. That one doesn't bother me. Well,

it doesn't bother me unless they infer that they do things differently than

everyone else (not using lye, for instance) or make it sound like their partial

ingredient list is a complete one. The other thing that bothers me is making it

sound like they don't use a synthetic preservative when we all know they have

to.

>

> Beth Byrne

> www.SoapAndGarden. com

> www.SoapAndGarden. blogspot. com

> Be good to your skin!

> www.Saponifier. com

>

> In a message dated 11/02/09 16:28:22 Eastern Standard Time, dove_14204 (DOT)

com writes:

> I have a huge pet peeve. Incomplete or non existent ingredient listing on

crafter's websites. I am on FB and many of the crafters have fan pages. I hjave

joined several of them. When I go to their actual websites I find questionable

products. waterbased products including bug foods like Aloe vera etc... are

being presevered by a " natural " preservative grapefruit seed extract. Which is

an antioxidant and not a preservative. I see soap being made without lye being

listed as an ingredient. I see lotions having active ingredients listed as if

they are a drug.

>

>

[Guest guest]

sorry i know you said the rant is over but....

I look at it as " if you really want to know, then email me and I will tell you

EXACTLY what is in my soap " a customer has a right to know and I have been known

myself to write up companies and ask them " hey can I get the INC for this

product " or " I have several allergies, I would like to know what exactly is in

this, can you please send me a complete ingredient list "

I myself have found that there are alot of people out there who really dont care

what is in something they just care about what it smells like. lol i mean there

are some who do want to know and half of what I tell them goes over there head

because I also tell them what the ingredient does. such as neem oil or

allantoin.

I know that myself I have some items that i dont list any ingredeints for and

others i may list some of the key " eye catchers " like my new facial moisturizer

has in it mango butter, cherry kernel oil and hazelnut oil and aloe, of course

we also know it would need a wax, it has some water, and a preservative and a

few other aditives but i mean i am advertising the good stuff. if they want to

know all the ingredients they can find out.

but i understand your pet peeve. i myself have one with alot of companies

confusing the heck out of cosumers by calling things essential oils whent hey

are carrier oils like glade and hair companies refering to avocado and grape

seed oils and essential oils and yada yada.

> >

> >

> > From: byrnebunch <ByrneBunch@ ...>

> > Subject: Re: Re: incomplete or no ingredient list pet peeve

> >

> > Date: Monday, November 2, 2009, 11:10 PM

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I share some of your concerns, especially regarding what appears to be

improper preservation and drug claims, which reminds me that I have to figure

out how to get into my site to check out my products! LOL

> >

> > As far as lye not being listed, the regulations do not require the

ingredients of soap and cosmetics to be listed on advertising, including

websites, so there are no violations in not listing ingredients. That one

doesn't bother me. Well, it doesn't bother me unless they infer that they do

things differently than everyone else (not using lye, for instance) or make it

sound like their partial ingredient list is a complete one. The other thing that

bothers me is making it sound like they don't use a synthetic preservative when

we all know they have to.

> >

> > Beth Byrne

> > www.SoapAndGarden. com

> > www.SoapAndGarden. blogspot. com

> > Be good to your skin!

> > www.Saponifier. com

> >

> > In a message dated 11/02/09 16:28:22 Eastern Standard Time,

dove_14204 (DOT) com writes:

> > I have a huge pet peeve. Incomplete or non existent ingredient listing on

crafter's websites. I am on FB and many of the crafters have fan pages. I hjave

joined several of them. When I go to their actual websites I find questionable

products. waterbased products including bug foods like Aloe vera etc... are

being presevered by a " natural " preservative grapefruit seed extract. Which is

an antioxidant and not a preservative. I see soap being made without lye being

listed as an ingredient. I see lotions having active ingredients listed as if

they are a drug.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Ah! I bet most will be great about getting an email asking though, or at least

if they are a knowledgeable soapmaker/products maker. They would take pride in

their ingredients I think. If they do not want to disclose after an email, than

I would not buy either, as it indicates lack of knowledge of why disclosing

ingredient info is so important. I would not want to wait to find out if the

label actually *did* have it all listed, But I bet many would be forthcoming

if you email.

kelly

>

> Thanks for your response kelly. However, my issue is a pet peeve. It is my

personal preference and it is a major reason whether or not I will purchase from

someone.

>

>

> Mrs. Rovenea A.

>

[Guest guest]

Oh Beth, the " apple eo " drives me personally insane, lol!

So does the concept of Natural Fragrance Oils... ha ha ha....

Bloom

Southern Soapers

http://www.southernsoapers.com

>

> I agree with that, and have no issues with those who don't put their

ingredient list on their sites. Ethically, however, I do have a problem with

those who infer things that cannot be true; for instance, " apple eo, " their soap

has no lye (no kidding, there had better not be lye in finished soap, lol), and

other like statements that give them an edge by making it seem as if their

product is different from others'.

>

> Beth Byrne

> www.SoapAndGarden.com

> www.SoapAndGarden.blogspot.com

> Be good to your skin!

> www.Saponifier.com

>

>

> In a message dated 11/04/09 09:58:48 Eastern Standard Time,

southernsoapersfragrances@... writes:

> Hey, I just caught this in my inbox. I have a few comments that might give a

different perspective. Websites are not product labels, and there is no legal,

moral, ethical, or business responsibility to provide ANY ingredient information

on websites. That FDA regulation for cosmetics, or soap making cosmetic claims,

or soap like cleansers only applies to the actual product label that the FPLA

also regulates.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

ha ha this actually reminds me of a show I did about 3 or so years ago. I was

right across from other so called " soapmakers " however it appeared they just

used premade bases and scented them right there it was called custome scents or

something like that. Of course nothing was labeled with ingredients or anything

like that. several things turned me off about it starting with the fact that

they didn't have proper labels at all. the other thing was how they did things,

they let people pick what scents they wanted and took eyedroppers and squirted

the FO into the bottles of whatever it was, lotion, body spray, room spray and

so on. and they appeared to be adding A LOT of FO. I was just thinking " DANGER

WARNING too much FO people are going to get rashes " but whatever...

anyways I was going on telling customers about what was in my products and one

of them came up to me and was like " you shouldnt do that, dont tell people, you

dont want them thinking it is that simple. "

im thinking " forget you I will tell people whatever I want im not worried they

are going to go home and make it themselves i mean geesh. " basically i just

think they didn't want me stealing customers from them because I make everything

myself and knew exactly what was in it where as I highly doubt they knew a darn

thing as to what was in their products. what did irritate me was all the people

buying their stuff just because they were able to get whatever scent combos they

wanted.

so that is something to think about too. perhaps these people, although they

make some nice looking stuff, perhaps they really dont know what is in there

stuff all.

> >

> > Thanks for your response kelly. However, my issue is a pet peeve. It is my

personal preference and it is a major reason whether or not I will purchase from

someone.

> >

> >

> > Mrs. Rovenea A.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

that sad and disturbing side is that people will belive what the big companies

tell them. They will belive that there is an apple essential oil and that it is

all natural. so then when we try telling them otherwise they think we are idiots

or jerks or something.

> >

> > I agree with that, and have no issues with those who don't put their

ingredient list on their sites. Ethically, however, I do have a problem with

those who infer things that cannot be true; for instance, " apple eo, " their soap

has no lye (no kidding, there had better not be lye in finished soap, lol), and

other like statements that give them an edge by making it seem as if their

product is different from others'.

> >

> > Beth Byrne

> > www.SoapAndGarden.com

> > www.SoapAndGarden.blogspot.com

> > Be good to your skin!

> > www.Saponifier.com

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 11/04/09 09:58:48 Eastern Standard Time,

southernsoapersfragrances@ writes:

> > Hey, I just caught this in my inbox. I have a few comments that might give a

different perspective. Websites are not product labels, and there is no legal,

moral, ethical, or business responsibility to provide ANY ingredient information

on websites. That FDA regulation for cosmetics, or soap making cosmetic claims,

or soap like cleansers only applies to the actual product label that the FPLA

also regulates.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello Soapers

I have been reading the posts and have enjoyed it much! I am new in the soap

world as far as selling products. I agree that there is a responsibility of

anyone making cosmetics, toiletry items or whatever people call it to be honest

to the consumer as to what is in the products they are purchasing.

I think I waited as long as I have to sell my products and develop my website

because I wanted to learn everything I could to be an honest product

developer/seller. I would never want to lie to my costumers and say " this is

made from scratch " when in actuality it is a premade soap base. If you say you

run an organic natural line of products, then that is what you are selling and

you can show proof that your products are what they say they are.

I continue to look forward to learning and reading more from you guys!

Have a great Friday!

~Naturally Good Soaps

[Guest guest]

 

Agreed on the standards - but you do know that it's kinda like herding cats. 

<no offense to cats :-)  >

 

The big box companies have been in-fighting on the standards for a long time. 

One good step was labeling issues.  Far from perfect and still tedious and full

of loopholes - but it is/was a start. 

 

As a small crafters-base - alot of our issues fall on deaf ears. 

 

Agreement on Organic - kinda, but still a lot of loop holes.

Agreement on all-natural - nope.

 

And there are always those folks willing to say they have Essential Apple Oil. 

The punishment for false advertising isn't as severe for big companies because

they have a cushion of money/lawyers and can really throw curves into the

system....and drag it on for years if need be. 

 

Us poor independant soap makers don't have that luxury.  We should be

policing our own, but even that fringes on unethical behaviors.  Let's not

create the Soap Police.  LOL  Although I think I could create a Soap Police

badge if need be. 

 

On a different forum I belong to (not soap related) they have been trying for

years to come up with an acceptable standard for a simple certification level. 

They get close - real close - and then the fighting starts. 

 

While you and I may be able to agree on this subject or another - there are

those folks that plain out don't know and/or don't care and will take their

chances.  Unfortunately, they sometimes succeed at a higher level than you or I

do.....and ultimately make the rest of us look like the stoopid people. 

Grrrrrrr. 

 

Okay, I must put the soap-box away!

 

Kirk 

 

 

Posted by: " rovenea turner " dove_14204@...   dove_14204

Thu Nov 5, 2009 11:42 am (PST)

That's what I am talking about all....we need to standardize ourselves as much

as possible so the jerk wads stand out like sore thumbs.

Mrs. Rovenea A.

When you control a man's thinking you do not have to worry about his actions.

www.heavensgiftjust 4you.com

[Guest guest]

Does not matter how tactful one is. The messenger is always shot,

Bloom

Southern Soapers

http://www.southernsoapers.com

>

> I agree. I admit that I haven't been favorably received the times I've tried

to help others with this sort of thing. I tried to be tactful, too!

>

> I haven't taken it, but the HSMG has a certification process. Maybe one of

the board members would like to speak to the topic.

>

> Beth Byrne

> www.SoapAndGarden.com

> www.SoapAndGarden.blogspot.com

> Be good to your skin!

> www.Saponifier.com

>

>

> In a message dated 11/06/09 11:06:21 Eastern Standard Time, kjack_1@...

writes:

> The big box companies have been in-fighting on the standards for a long time.

One good step was labeling issues. Far from perfect and still tedious and full

of loopholes - but it is/was a start.

>

> As a small crafters-base - alot of our issues fall on deaf ears.

>

> Agreement on Organic - kinda, but still a lot of loop holes.

> Agreement on all-natural - nope.

>

> And there are always those folks willing to say they have Essential Apple Oil.

The punishment for false advertising isn't as severe for big companies because

they have a cushion of money/lawyers and can really throw curves into the

system....and drag it on for years if need be.

>

> Us poor independant soap makers don't have that luxury. We should be policing

our own, but even that fringes on unethical behaviors. Let's not create the

Soap Police. LOL Although I think I could create a Soap Police badge if need

be.

>

> On a different forum I belong to (not soap related) they have been trying for

years to come up with an acceptable standard for a simple certification level.

They get close - real close - and then the fighting starts.

>

>

>