Re: Grain feeding was SCD Revisted

[Guest guest]

While grain is certainly not the preferred feed for ruminants and shouldn't

make up a large part of the diet it isn't quite poisonous either. It is

true that grain especially barley must be introduced slowly because it

digest rapidly in the rumen. If they get too much too fast they will end up

with a condition known as acidosis. Which simply means their system is too

acidic (out of balance). Depending on the severity of the condition cows

could die from it. On many farms what happens is the cows are just fed too

much grain on a daily basis, resulting in chronic acidosis. They don't

actually die from it outright, but they end up with a lot of other problems

such as hooves that grow too fast and a shortened life span. So in a manner

of speaking it could be called poisonous but not like feeding a bottle of

insecticide to them. On the other hand I know of several farmers who

succesfully feed a limited amount of grain and have none of these problems.

danny

Creek Bend Dairy Farm

Harry & Peggy Strite

11917 Snug Harbor Lane

port, MD 21795

301-582-4135

cbdfarm@...

BUT... the interesting bit was him explaining that when your average farmer

embarks on feeding grain to his cattle [he mentioned barley] they have to

introduce it SLOWLY, bit by bit as the barley is 'poisionous' for the

animals!!!

[Guest guest]

>While grain is certainly not the preferred feed for ruminants and shouldn't

>make up a large part of the diet it isn't quite poisonous either. It is

>true that grain especially barley must be introduced slowly because it

>digest rapidly in the rumen. If they get too much too fast they will end up

>with a condition known as acidosis.

As for goats, I'll make one comment: grain IS their *preferred* food! The

books all warn not to let them have access to the grain bin, as they

will sometimes literally eat themselves to death. Mine will do

*anything* for a handful of grain, so I use it mainly to bribe them.

It certainly isn't a food they are designed to eat much of, but

they sure get addicted to it.

Also I've read that the " acidosis " condition's underlying cause is acidophilus

overgrowth -- i.e. it is similar to the problems described in SCD.

Which is one reason why grain-fed steer get loads of antibiotics:

to keep them alive on a high-grain diet.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Hi Heidi.....

It has been long know in feed lots that the close confinement practices

of the trade produces waste that is transferred to the lot of animals

that is exposed to a sick cow and the fact cows are meant to roam rather

than stay in a 100 x 100 area for a long period of time.

The fact that you treat acidosis with antibiotics is not a correct one

in my book, dry hay will do the trick if only fed for a few days, and

chronic acidosis takes a while to kill the cow in question.

i would guess that a large portion of the cows & commercially raised

beef has it and it is a managed problem not a irradiation issue.

I know dairies that have such hot feed that if they are not monitored

the cows on a hourly basis the acidosis becomes to severe and the cow

goes down.

They fed the antibiotics to keep the beef from getting sick from other

cows being so close.

This is primarily in beef production not dairy, the fines are to severe

to take the risk on antibiotic feed to milk cows..

Tim

Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

>

> >While grain is certainly not the preferred feed for ruminants and

> shouldn't

> >make up a large part of the diet it isn't quite poisonous either. It

> is

> >true that grain especially barley must be introduced slowly because

> it

> >digest rapidly in the rumen. If they get too much too fast they will

> end up

> >with a condition known as acidosis.

>

> As for goats, I'll make one comment: grain IS their *preferred* food!

> The

> books all warn not to let them have access to the grain bin, as they

> will sometimes literally eat themselves to death. Mine will do

> *anything* for a handful of grain, so I use it mainly to bribe them.

> It certainly isn't a food they are designed to eat much of, but

> they sure get addicted to it.

>

> Also I've read that the " acidosis " condition's underlying cause is

> acidophilus

> overgrowth -- i.e. it is similar to the problems described in SCD.

> Which is one reason why grain-fed steer get loads of antibiotics:

> to keep them alive on a high-grain diet.

>

> Heidi

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>The fact that you treat acidosis with antibiotics is not a correct one

>in my book, dry hay will do the trick if only fed for a few days, and

>chronic acidosis takes a while to kill the cow in question.

I tend to agree it is a bad idea! I don't have cows -- I have two goats

and they only get a little grain as a bribe. But there was a great

5-part article in the New York Times about it awhile back, and

some other stuff I read, and basically it seemed to say that the

acidosis problem is a result of bacterial overgrowth on

too much starch. That isn't to say they don't give antibiotics

for other reasons, such as overcrowding.

> They fed the antibiotics to keep the beef from getting sick from other

>cows being so close.

>This is primarily in beef production not dairy, the fines are to severe

>to take the risk on antibiotic feed to milk cows.

I hope so. The NYT article said they were feeding the steer in question

1/4 lb of antibiotics a DAY. The particular article was a great one --

the reporter bought his own calf, then followed it from the time he

bought to to the feed lot to slaughter and sale. The experience

converted him to a grass-fed beef eater! (the article is not online

any more and you have to pay to get it, or I'd post the URL).

One of the anti-milk sites though said they tested a lot of milk

and found high levels of antibiotics in the milk. Which might

account for problems I've had with kefir in commercial milk!

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi, I agree.....that was an awesome article! Here is the url for

the article, which was in one of Mercola's newletters:

http://www.mercola.com/2002/apr/17/cattle1.htm

Connie

>

> >The fact that you treat acidosis with antibiotics is not a

correct one

> >in my book, dry hay will do the trick if only fed for a few days,

and

> >chronic acidosis takes a while to kill the cow in question.

>

> I tend to agree it is a bad idea! I don't have cows -- I have two

goats

> and they only get a little grain as a bribe. But there was a great

> 5-part article in the New York Times about it awhile back, and

> some other stuff I read, and basically it seemed to say that the

> acidosis problem is a result of bacterial overgrowth on

> too much starch. That isn't to say they don't give antibiotics

> for other reasons, such as overcrowding.

>

> > They fed the antibiotics to keep the beef from getting sick from

other

> >cows being so close.

> >This is primarily in beef production not dairy, the fines are to

severe

> >to take the risk on antibiotic feed to milk cows.

>

> I hope so. The NYT article said they were feeding the steer in

question

> 1/4 lb of antibiotics a DAY. The particular article was a great

one --

> the reporter bought his own calf, then followed it from the time he

> bought to to the feed lot to slaughter and sale. The experience

> converted him to a grass-fed beef eater! (the article is not online

> any more and you have to pay to get it, or I'd post the URL).

>

> One of the anti-milk sites though said they tested a lot of milk

> and found high levels of antibiotics in the milk. Which might

> account for problems I've had with kefir in commercial milk!

>

> -- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>Heidi, I agree.....that was an awesome article! Here is the url for

>the article, which was in one of Mercola's newletters:

>

><http://www.mercola.com/2002/apr/17/cattle1.htm>http://www.mercola.com/2002/apr\

/17/cattle1.htm

>

>Connie

Wow, thanks! He reprinted the whole thing, looks like. I HIGHLY

recommend reading it. And printing it, sending it to your friends ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

> They fed the antibiotics to keep the beef from getting sick from other

>cows being so close.

>This is primarily in beef production not dairy, the fines are to severe

>to take the risk on antibiotic feed to milk cows.

----->tim, are you saying there's some regulation against feeding dairy cows

antibiotics?

>>>>One of the anti-milk sites though said they tested a lot of milk

and found high levels of antibiotics in the milk. Which might

account for problems I've had with kefir in commercial milk!

-------->hmmm...i wonder if the anti-milk sites are a reliable source of

this info? wonder who did the actual testing?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

Suze,

In land it is illegal to feed antibiotics to dairy cows and still ship

their milk. It is not illegal to use antibiotics on dairy cows, but if you

do you must dump that cows milk. In other words it cannot be shipped to the

milk plant until the cow is free from antibiotics. Our milk company will

actually pay you to dump 1 milking worth of milk if you accidentally milk

that cow into the tank. If you get caught shipping antibiotic milk, your

first offense is a warning, second offense you pay for the entire tanker

load (about 6,000 gallons) and third offense you pay for the entire tanker

load and they kick you off the companies membership. So it definitely

doesn't pay to ship antibiotic milk. That however doesn't necessarily stop

it from happening. Why? When you milk one cow, her milk might still have

antibiotics (after being treated) but if you add her milk to 100 others you

have a big dilution rate. In fact it may be diluted enough that it will not

test bad. Then you put that milk into a 6000 gallon tanker and it is really

diluted. So it may have antibiotics in it but personally its not something

I would worry about because of the huge dilution factor. I'm not saying

this happens everywhere but it has happened, so its best to buy your milk

from a farmer you trust.

danny

Creek Bend Dairy Farm

Harry & Peggy Strite

11917 Snug Harbor Lane

port, MD 21795

301-582-4135

cbdfarm@...

>

> ----->tim, are you saying there's some regulation against feeding dairy

cows

> antibiotics?

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Suze....

There is no " Laws " to prohibit antibiotic feeding to cows but it is not

a good idea given it may leak into milk and the farmer would be buying a

tanker load of milk if it happens to contaminate a load, and that is

very expensive.

You can use antibiotics on a cow to fix a mastitis problem but the cow

has to have no trace of the antibiotics in her milk before it can be

shipped with the other milk cows.

Where these people are getting antibiotic traces is unknown to me unless

the bottling company does not dispose of the milk as they are required

to do.

Tim

Suze Fisher wrote:

> > They fed the antibiotics to keep the beef from getting sick from

> other

> >cows being so close.

> >This is primarily in beef production not dairy, the fines are to

> severe

> >to take the risk on antibiotic feed to milk cows.

>

> ----->tim, are you saying there's some regulation against feeding

> dairy cows

> antibiotics?

>

>

> >>>>One of the anti-milk sites though said they tested a lot of milk

> and found high levels of antibiotics in the milk. Which might

> account for problems I've had with kefir in commercial milk!

>

> -------->hmmm...i wonder if the anti-milk sites are a reliable source

> of

> this info? wonder who did the actual testing?

>

> Suze Fisher

> Lapdog Design, Inc.

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

> mailto:s.fisher22@...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>There is no " Laws " to prohibit antibiotic feeding to cows but it is not

a good idea given it may leak into milk and the farmer would be buying a

tanker load of milk if it happens to contaminate a load, and that is

very expensive.

---------->so, the distributor simply won't buy it if it's contaminated?

>>>>You can use antibiotics on a cow to fix a mastitis problem but the cow

has to have no trace of the antibiotics in her milk before it can be

shipped with the other milk cows.

Where these people are getting antibiotic traces is unknown to me unless

the bottling company does not dispose of the milk as they are required

to do.

----->i'm not clear on whether there is some *national* regulation that you

must dispose of the milk if it's got antibiotic contamination? or if it's a

state by state thing? or what? can you clear this up? thanks!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

In MA anyway, all licensed dairy farmers have to submit their milk for

testing of antibiotic residue.

Chris

[Guest guest]

--- The antibiotics test is run on each individual patron(dairy) or

was at Mid-Am's southern division in 1978 when necessary(when the

tanker tested positive). Some one bought them out, I think so

testing frequency probably changed. Nowadays the test is probably

accurate to <1 ppm although I'm not sure. Don't you hold the milk

back for 5 days or so after the last antibiotic treatment? Dennis

In , " Creek Bend Dairy Farm "

<cbdfarm@i...> wrote:

> Suze,

> In land it is illegal to feed antibiotics to dairy cows and

still ship

> their milk. It is not illegal to use antibiotics on dairy cows,

but if you

> do you must dump that cows milk. In other words it cannot be

shipped to the

> milk plant until the cow is free from antibiotics. Our milk

company will

> actually pay you to dump 1 milking worth of milk if you

accidentally milk

> that cow into the tank. If you get caught shipping antibiotic

milk, your

> first offense is a warning, second offense you pay for the entire

tanker

>

[Guest guest]

--- The antibiotics test is run on each individual patron(dairy) or

was at Mid-Am's southern division in 1978 when necessary(when the

tanker tested positive). Some one bought them out, I think so

testing frequency probably changed. Nowadays the test is probably

accurate to <1 ppm although I'm not sure. Don't you hold the milk

back for 5 days or so after the last antibiotic treatment? Dennis

In , " Creek Bend Dairy Farm "

<cbdfarm@i...> wrote:

> Suze,

> In land it is illegal to feed antibiotics to dairy cows and

still ship

> their milk. It is not illegal to use antibiotics on dairy cows,

but if you

> do you must dump that cows milk. In other words it cannot be

shipped to the

> milk plant until the cow is free from antibiotics. Our milk

company will

> actually pay you to dump 1 milking worth of milk if you

accidentally milk

> that cow into the tank. If you get caught shipping antibiotic

milk, your

> first offense is a warning, second offense you pay for the entire

tanker

>

[Guest guest]

>>>>>One of the anti-milk sites though said they tested a lot of milk

>and found high levels of antibiotics in the milk. Which might

>account for problems I've had with kefir in commercial milk!

>

>-------->hmmm...i wonder if the anti-milk sites are a reliable source of

>this info? wonder who did the actual testing?

>

>Suze Fisher

Well, I can't find that link right now but it seems that the

industry does work hard to avoid contamination. Not

all batches are tested, and some antibiotics get through

anyway. You are right, an anti-milk site isn't the most

reliable source. But here is from a pro-milk site:

http://www.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/modae/12029202.html

.. The 58 positive producer samples were not detected from the truck load as

dilution of the positive farm samples were not detected from the truck load

dilution of the positive farm sample kept the kept the truck load legal. Since

an official bacteria test is run once per month per farm, the actual number of

positive antibiotic samples is grossly underestimated. In addition, the major

screening test at the present time is for beta lactam drugs only; penicillin,

cloxacillin, NAXCEL, hetacillin, etc. Since July 1, 1992 5-6 farm milk samples

have contained tetracyclines, sulfamethazine and others. A more extensive

testing program will increase detection of all drugs.

And from an anti-BGH site:

http://www.sumeria.net/anim/bgh.html

In 1990, an FDA survey found antibiotics and sulfa drugs in 51% of 70 milk

samples taken in 14 cities. Subsequently FDA announced it had found no

antibiotics in a follow-up survey, but the Wall Street Journal reported two

months later that FDA had actually found drugs in 80% of the samples. An FDA

spokesperson acknowledged that antibiotics are `widely misused' by dairy farmers

and veterinarians.

A CBS-affiliated TV station in New York conducted its own survey of milk from

stores in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut in early 1990 and reported that

80% of 50 samples contained tetracycline, a family of antibiotics. The survey

also revealed that 26% of the samples were tainted with the drug sulfamethazine,

a suspected carcinogen banned from dairy use.

However, another site mentioned that the industry has cleaned up it's act a lot

since 1992 or so, and it is much better now.

http://www.colostruminfo.com/articles/antibiotic_residue.html

Milk residues from drugs in the ¦-lactim family, i.e.; penicillin, have been

dramatically reduced from about 13% before 1962, to less than .5% per day. Other

studies evaluating antibiotic residues including sulfonamides, tetracyclines and

aminoglycosides, have a wide range of violative residues from 9 to 70%. These

studies have frequently reported residue levels lower than the tolerance levels

established by the FDA. Screening methods used in some of these studies are

subject to false-positive results. The FDA in contrast has found no violative

residues in a study of 70 milk samples collected from supermarkets in 14 U.S

cities in late 1989. The milk industry foundation also reported a low residue

violation rate of .12% in a national survey of more than 2 million tanker loads

of milk in 1990.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

---

either state dept of Ag or usda , I think. Dennis

In , ChrisMasterjohn@a... wrote:

> In MA anyway, all licensed dairy farmers have to submit their milk

for

> testing of antibiotic residue.

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- second thot: FDA is involved too. Dennis

In , " dkemnitz2000 "

<dkemnitz2000@y...> wrote:

> ---

>

> either state dept of Ag or usda , I think. Dennis

>

>

>

>

> In , ChrisMasterjohn@a... wrote:

> > In MA anyway, all licensed dairy farmers have to submit their

milk

> for

> > testing of antibiotic residue.

> >

> > Chris

> >

> >

> >