Re: gluten theory vs. SCD theory

[Guest guest]

Suze-

I don't have time to get into this at length, but no, they're not really

mutually exclusive. The SCD theory holds that fermentation and bad

organism overgrowth damages the intestine and leads to gluten sensitivity

(and other allergies). Heal the gut, change the gut population, and

proteins no longer get where they're not supposed to be and people can

tolerate them again. This is in fact born out by experience. Wheat,

though, and other grains too, will always potential problems, as they

contain lots and lots of starch.

It's true that the SCD breaks down in not considering that with adequate

preparation, many peoples did in fact do pretty well with grains provided

they also had enough animal protein and fat-soluble vitamins, but nobody's

perfect, and the subject is at least partly beyond BTVC's scope anyway,

since someone who's sick will have the best chance to heal, and will heal

most quickly, eliminating all grains anyway. Certainly, though, if

someone's going to add back some grains after healing, he'd do best to go

the NT way.

>----->do the gluten theory and SCD theory necessarily have to be

>contradictory? i think both heidi and chris made some good points about how

>they can both be accurate without the other being wrong. maybe that's what

>you mean by " strict gluten theory " as opposed to a more " expansive " theory

>that takes both gliadin/IGA issues and gut microbial fermentation into

>account.

-

[Guest guest]

At 08:23 AM 7/24/2003, you wrote:

> The SCD theory holds that fermentation and bad

>organism overgrowth damages the intestine and leads to gluten sensitivity

>(and other allergies). Heal the gut, change the gut population, and

>proteins no longer get where they're not supposed to be and people can

>tolerate them again.

And that is THE main debate. Otherwise the two theories

are compatible enough. Celiac researchers are mainly of the opinion

that while IgE and IgG allergies DO go away (sometimes), IgA allergies

seem to be hard-coded in the DNA, in the HLA genes.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/25/03 7:51:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> am i understanding that gottschall's stance on this is that

> *everyone* would have the specific enzyme required to digest this alpha

> gliadin polypeptide chain if they went on the SCD and healed their gut?

She doesn't address the issue but she doesn't say that *everyone* will be

able to digest whatever they want. She does mention lactose as possible to

never

digest, but she also seems to imply that most people could recover usability

of lactase enzymes when she says that *some* will never be able too.

I'm still open too but skeptical of the evidence that gliaden directly causes

villi damage. I think it probably does, but I don't think that gliaden

" making them go to sleep " is evidence of that, nor do I think that long-term

wheat

consumption causing permanent damage is either necessarily, even if excluding

wheat but not other grains prevents the damage. If the latter is true though,

it does make it probable. But either can be explained strictly from

Gottschal's point of view too (or from gluten-theory point of view) and fitting

the

latter in requires only very moderate stretching of the subject.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>>>>I don't have time to get into this at length, but no, they're not really

mutually exclusive. The SCD theory holds that fermentation and bad

organism overgrowth damages the intestine and leads to gluten sensitivity

(and other allergies). Heal the gut, change the gut population, and

proteins no longer get where they're not supposed to be and people can

tolerate them again.

----->but even if proteins aren't *leaking* into the bloodstream, some of

them still do damage INSIDE the gut, which in turn can lead to gut

permeability.

there is a particular bond between some amino acids in alpha gliadin that is

extremely resistant to digestion. there's a specific enzyme that is required

to break that bond, and not everyone has it. so, if you are one of those

people who doesn't have it, and your gut is healthy, you are still not going

to be able to digest the most problematic protein, or perhaps, *polypeptide

chain*, and as i understand it, it's going to glom onto your micro villi and

flatten them right there IN the intestines. this then can lead to gut

permeability. am i understanding that gottschall's stance on this is that

*everyone* would have the specific enzyme required to digest this alpha

gliadin polypeptide chain if they went on the SCD and healed their gut?

to me, your explanation is still strictly the SCD theory and is exclusionary

of the gluten/IgA theory. i'm thinking it might be possible (thanks to

chris' thoughtful and thorough examination of the subject :-) that this SCD

theory might explain what *some* people are experiencing, but not others,

and the gluten theory may explain what *some* people are experiencing, but

not others. IOW, both phenomena can exist in the world - it doesn't have to

be an either/or situation. in some cases, maybe gluten is the initiator of

damage and in others, bacterial dysbiosis *not* caused by gluten might cause

the subsequent gluten problems.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> am i understanding that gottschall's stance on this is that

> *everyone* would have the specific enzyme required to digest this alpha

> gliadin polypeptide chain if they went on the SCD and healed their gut?

She doesn't address the issue but she doesn't say that *everyone* will be

able to digest whatever they want. She does mention lactose as possible to

never

digest, but she also seems to imply that most people could recover usability

of lactase enzymes when she says that *some* will never be able too.

I'm still open too but skeptical of the evidence that gliaden directly

causes

villi damage.

----->well, take a look at a " picture " of what it apparently does:

http://www.immunology.no/cd/Sollid_NRI.pdf - scroll down to page 2. oh, and

this is a good article, titled: " Coeliac Disease: Dissecting a Complex

Inflammatory Disorder. " it discusses the genetic component, too. i'd like

your opinion on that part of the article if you find the time to read it.

i've yet to see a reasonable theory from the SCD camp that explains the

genetic aspect of celiacs. and especially, the evidence that it's most

prevalant among populations that've been eating wheat the shortest period of

time (but had been consuming other grains for a long period without apparent

problems). how could you explain that within the context of the SCD theory?

>>>>I think it probably does, but I don't think that gliaden

" making them go to sleep " is evidence of that,

----->it doesn't " make them go to sleep " it makes them atrophy (which

prevents nutrient absorption, of course) and causes " hyperplastic crypts and

increased infiltration of lymphoid cells in the lamina propria and

epithelium. " according to the above article.

>>>>> nor do I think that long-term wheat

consumption causing permanent damage is either necessarily, even if

excluding

wheat but not other grains prevents the damage. If the latter is true

though,

it does make it probable. But either can be explained strictly from

Gottschal's point of view too (or from gluten-theory point of view) and

fitting the

latter in requires only very moderate stretching of the subject.

----->i don't understand what you're saying here.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

>IOW, both phenomena can exist in the world - it doesn't have to

>be an either/or situation. in some cases, maybe gluten is the initiator of

>damage and in others, bacterial dysbiosis *not* caused by gluten might cause

>the subsequent gluten problems.

Here, here! Good summary.

One addition you made me think of: in celiac, the damage is to the

very top part of the small intestine, just after the stomach, which

is a spot where there is lots of undigested food, but not much

bacterial action yet. Crohn's and IBD and the others are further

down, where there is less undigested food and more bacterial

by-products. So it would make sense to me that Crohns and the

others are caused by bacterial by products, but upper gut

damage is caused by reactions to the food itself.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>----->it doesn't " make them go to sleep " it makes them atrophy (which

>prevents nutrient absorption, of course) and causes " hyperplastic crypts and

>increased infiltration of lymphoid cells in the lamina propria and

>epithelium. " according to the above article.

I was the one who said that ... someone did an experiment where they

watched the villi react via endoscope when gluten solution was inserted. The

villi

flattened temporarily -- the " going to sleep " way my poetic nature

coming forth ... The point of the study is that the villi *react* for a long

time, maybe years, before any permanent damage shows up on a

biopsy, so maybe it is a good idea to avoid gluten before there is real

damage.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>>>>>nor do I think that long-term wheat

consumption causing permanent damage is either necessarily, even if excluding

wheat but not other grains prevents the damage. If the latter is true

though,

it does make it probable. But either can be explained strictly from

Gottschal's point of view too (or from gluten-theory point of view) and

fitting the

latter in requires only very moderate stretching of the subject.

----->i don't understand what you're saying here.

I'm saying that wheat specifically among other grains is implicated in

intestinal damage by the SCD theory because the gliaden makes it uniquely hard

to

digest. So some people who are most vulnerable would become severely damage by

overuse of *any* grain, while some folks who are less vulnerable might only

have major damage from the worst grains (i.e. wheat).

The gluten-theory could say only wheat has gliaden.

So, both theories can explain the observation. That's what I was saying.

Meanwhile I'm waiting for my stubborn aol browser to downlaod the PDF you

linked too...

Chris

[Guest guest]

>>>>One addition you made me think of: in celiac, the damage is to the

very top part of the small intestine, just after the stomach, which

is a spot where there is lots of undigested food, but not much

bacterial action yet. Crohn's and IBD and the others are further

down, where there is less undigested food and more bacterial

by-products. So it would make sense to me that Crohns and the

others are caused by bacterial by products, but upper gut

damage is caused by reactions to the food itself.

---->oh, interesting observation! i hadn't thought of that. of course it

makes sense that the immune reaction occurs as soon as (or shortly after)

the offending proteins enter the gut and at a point in the gut where

bacterial action/fermentation is minimal.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

>>>>>nor do I think that long-term wheat

consumption causing permanent damage is either necessarily, even if

excluding

wheat but not other grains prevents the damage. If the latter is true

though,

it does make it probable. But either can be explained strictly from

Gottschal's point of view too (or from gluten-theory point of view) and

fitting the

latter in requires only very moderate stretching of the subject.

----->i don't understand what you're saying here.

I'm saying that wheat specifically among other grains is implicated in

intestinal damage by the SCD theory because the gliaden makes it uniquely

hard to

digest. So some people who are most vulnerable would become severely damage

by

overuse of *any* grain, while some folks who are less vulnerable might only

have major damage from the worst grains (i.e. wheat).

------->this doesn't make sense, in that some celiacs seem to do fine with

other grains, but by any standard they're the *most* vulnerable folks, like

heidi. according to the SCD theory as you state it here, heidi, who reacts

to trace quantities of gluten and is by all accounts extremely sensitive to

wheat, shouldn't be doing well with the sourghum, potatoes and other

SCD-illegal foods she regularly eats.

>>>The gluten-theory could say only wheat has gliaden.

----->i'm not sure the name of the proteins in rye and barley that are

similar to gliadin, but the gluten theory doesn't say that *only* wheat is

problematic. i *think* it holds that wheat is the *most* problematic, but

rye and barley have gluten, too, which is also damaging to celiacs and other

gluten-sensitive folks. do the gluten proteins in these grains have the same

unique structure that gottschall describes wheat gliadin as having, and

reportedly, being the SCD reason why gliadin is problematic? if not, then

that would be a major hole in her theory.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/26/03 9:58:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

s.fisher22@... writes:

> ------->this doesn't make sense, in that some celiacs seem to do fine with

> other grains, but by any standard they're the *most* vulnerable folks, like

> heidi. according to the SCD theory as you state it here, heidi, who reacts

> to trace quantities of gluten and is by all accounts extremely sensitive to

> wheat, shouldn't be doing well with the sourghum, potatoes and other

> SCD-illegal foods she regularly eats.

It sure does make sense because there are plenty of folks diagnosed as

*celiacs* who do *not* get better on gluten-free diets but *do* heal on SCD.

Letter

posted below from one. So clearly celiacs who cannot recover on a

gluten-free diet are more vulnerable than celiacs who can!

>

> >>>The gluten-theory could say only wheat has gliaden.

>

> ----->i'm not sure the name of the proteins in rye and barley

Glutenins?

that are > similar to gliadin, but the gluten theory doesn't say that *only*

> wheat is

> problematic.

Well to the extent this is true it fails to explain why wheat is problematic

but other grains seem to produce no symptoms (as non-gliaden but

glutenin-grains are used widely in Europe for celiacs, with supposedly no

symptoms)

i *think* it holds that wheat is the *most* problematic, but

> rye and barley have gluten, too, which is also damaging to celiacs and

> other

> gluten-sensitive folks. do the gluten proteins in these grains have the same

> unique structure that gottschall describes wheat gliadin as having, and

> reportedly, being the SCD reason why gliadin is problematic? if not, then

> that would be a major hole in her theory.

No, it it isn't a major whole in her theory any more than it is in the

gluten-theory. In fact the gluten-theorists are quite divided on how to handle

the

glutenin issue and glutenins do NOT damage the villi in the way that gliaden

does, even according to the people who oppose the consumption of them by

celiacs and gluten-sensitives, such as the authors of Dangerous Grains.

Nevertheless, non-gliaden gluten grains appear to damage the gut just as much or

close to

as much in a completely different way, in cuasing gut permeability but *not*

causing atrophied villi, according to the authors of DG, and *other* grains

obviously cause gut damage as well as made clear by the celiacs and other folks

with gut problems who can't heal on a non-gluten diet but do heal when the cut

out all the non-gluten grains, which even Heidi attests to as she has said

while many folks do fine when they eliminate gluten others do much better if

they eliminate starch or greatly reduce it.

-Chris

" After eight years of mysterious symptoms, dozens of doctors, gruelling, and

often humiliating tests and general misery, no one could decide what was wrong

with me. I discovered that because of my two sisters and my daughter had

been diagnosed as celiacs, that I, too, should go on the gluten-free diet.

Unfortuanately, for both my daughter, another sister and I, the gluten-free diet

did not work. Some symptoms were arrested but none of us were thriving and we

just weren't absoring food. We eventually found the Specific Carbohydrate Diet

and it has been a godsend. I have never been healthier. My daughter, once a

sickly (often whiney) withdrawn child with thin hair and dark circles under

her eyes is outgoing, rosy-cheeked and happy. Everyone has noticed her thick

shiny hair. In fact she ran a marathon this year and placed 15th out of 79

children. Last year she ran the same race (before the diet) and placed 53rd,

arrived weepy, and slept all the way home in the car. "

[Guest guest]

OK, here is another monkey wrench ... gliadin seems to promote free-radical

production in the blood -- which would account for higher levels of heart

disease etc. Since maybe 1/5 to 1/3 of the American population is gluten

sensitive, this would really throw off the health of the nation in general ...

it also indicates that gliadin promotes IgG and IgE production.

-- Heidi

==========

---------- Cytokine. 2003 Mar 21;21(6):270-80.

Wheat gliadin promotes the interleukin-4-induced IgE production by normal human

peripheral mononuclear cells through a redox-dependent mechanism.

Dugas B, Dugas N, Conti M, Calenda A, Pino P, Y, Mazier D, Vouldoukis I.

Isocell Nutra SAS, 53 bd du General Martial Valion, 75015 Paris, France.

bdugas@...

Increased levels of serum IgE have been described in gliadin-intolerant

patients; however, biological mechanisms implicated in this immunoglobulin

production remained unknown. In this study, we demonstrated that in vitro crude

gliadins and gliadin lysates (Glilys) promoted the IL-4-induced IgE production

by human peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMC), indicating that the

biological process related to gliadin intolerance and/or allergy may lead to IgE

production in vivo. It was found that crude gliadin and Glilys potentiated,

after 13 days of culture in a dose-dependent manner, IL- 4-induced IgE

production and, to a lesser extent, the IgG production, while they did not

affect IgA or IgM productions. This promoting effect of gliadin and Glilys on

the IL-4-induced activation of normal human PBMC was also observed on the early

release (2 days) of the soluble fraction of CD23, suggesting its possible

involvement in IgE potentiation. The promoting effect of crude gliadin and

Glilys appeared to be indirect because they did not modify purified

B-lymphocytes IgE production after IL- 4 and anti-CD40 monoclonal antibody

stimulation.In addition, as revealed by luminol-dependent chemiluminescence, we

demonstrated that crude gliadin and Glilys promoted a substantial production of

free radicals by normal human PBMC, treated or not with IL-4. This redox

imbalance associated with an increased IgE production led us to evaluate the

effect of pharmacological antioxidants (N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC) and

Cu/Zn-superoxide dismutase (SOD1)) on IgE production by human PBMC.

The NAC and the intracellularly delivered SOD1 were found to suppress the

IL-4+/-crude gliadin or Glilys- induced IgE production by normal human PBMC.

Taken together, these data indicated that gliadin specifically enhanced

IL-4-induced IgE production by normal human PBMC, probably by the regulation of

redox pathways, and that this 'pro-allergenic' effect could be counteracted by

natural antioxidants: thiols and/or vectorized SOD1.

---------- Biochim Biophys Acta. 1999 Jan 6;1453(1):152-60.

In vitro cytotoxic effect of wheat gliadin-derived peptides on the Caco-2

intestinal cell line is associated with intracellular oxidative imbalance:

implications for coeliac disease.

Rivabene R, Mancini E, De Vincenzi M.

Laboratory of Metabolism and Pathological Biochemistry, Istituto Superiore di

Sanita, Rome, Italy. mbpsegr@...

Coeliac disease (CD) is an inflammatory disorder of the upper small intestine in

which gluten acts as an essential factor in its pathogenesis. Although it is

generally accepted that cereal protein activation of the immune system is

involved in CD progression, a non-immunomediated cytotoxic activity of

gliadin-derived peptides on the jejunal/duodenal tract cannot be excluded. In

this work, considering that (a) little has been reported about the intracellular

metabolic events associated with gliadin toxicity, and ( an important role for

free radicals in a number of gastrointestinal disease has been demonstrated, we

investigated the in vitro effects of gliadin-derived peptides on redox

metabolism of Caco-2 intestinal cells during a kinetic study in which cells were

exposed to peptic-tryptic digest of bread wheat up to 48 h. We found that the

antiproliferative effects displayed by gliadin exposure was associated with

intracellular oxidative imbalance, characterised by an increased presence of

lipid peroxides, an augmented oxidised (GSSG)/reduced (GSH) glutathione ratio

and a loss in protein-bound sulfhydryl groups. Significant structural

perturbations of the cell plasma membrane were also detected.

Additional experiments performed by using the specific GSH-depleting agent

buthionine sulfoximine provide evidence that the extent of gliadin-induced cell

growth arrest critically depends upon the 'basal' redox profile of the

enterocytes. On the whole, these findings seem to suggest that, besides the

adoption of a strictly gluten-free diet, the possibility for an adjuvant therapy

with antioxidants may be considered for CD patients.

[Guest guest]

>>>OK, here is another monkey wrench ... gliadin seems to promote

free-radical production in the blood

------->wow...the plot thickens! interesting stuff!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/27/03 2:48:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> OK, here is another monkey wrench ... gliadin seems to promote free-radical

> production in the blood -- which would account for higher levels of heart

> disease etc. Since maybe 1/5 to 1/3 of the American population is gluten

> sensitive, this would really throw off the health of the nation in general ...

it

> also indicates that gliadin promotes IgG and IgE production.

Hey Heidi,

By the way, I read a paragraph snipped from Mercola today that *stress* can

cause IgA blood levels. Are you sure these are specific to gluten???

Chris

[Guest guest]

>Hey Heidi,

>

>By the way, I read a paragraph snipped from Mercola today that *stress* can

>cause IgA blood levels. Are you sure these are specific to gluten???

>

>Chris

Well, the cells in vitro probably aren't reacting to stress. They probably

aren't reacting to starch-eating bacteria either. The cells getting

gluten and the cells not getting gluten would be under about the

same amount of stress and have the same amount of bacteria,

one would think. So I'd guess that in *that*

case one can safely say the reaction is specific to gluten.

I couldn't find anything about stress and IgA on Mercola's though.

IgA is immunoglobulin, and there are lots of different types.

Mostly it fights viruses. It

makes sense you would produce more when you are under stress,

probably more of the types you normally produce. But the IgA tests

I'm talking about are specifically testing for IgA anti-gliadin antibody.

You can test for IgA anti-casein antibody too, or IgA anti-cold-virus

probably.

The other test is for tissue transglutamase, which causes an

auto-immune reaction which attacks your tissues -- that one isn't

gliadin-specific at all, but it stops being produced when the person

stops eating gliadin. Why?

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>Hey Heidi,

>

>By the way, I read a paragraph snipped from Mercola today that *stress* can

>cause IgA blood levels. Are you sure these are specific to gluten???

>

>Chris

Hmmm... actually I found ONE quote on Mercola's site regarding stress and IgA,

and it seems to say that if you are under stress you make LESS IgA. This is IgA

in general though, not any specific type -- but if this is so, then a person

would be LESS gluten reactive when they were under stress, because they would

have less gliaden-reactive IgA as well as all the other types of IgA.

http://www.mercola.com/2000/sept/10/hiv_gut.htm

Emotions also tend to enter into gut health as if your adrenal are not

functioning properly due to stress they will not make an antibody called

secretory IgA which is responsible for local immune function in the gut.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>

>> >>>The gluten-theory could say only wheat has gliaden.

>>

>> ----->i'm not sure the name of the proteins in rye and barley

Melin-Rogovin, Program Director, University of Chicago Center of Celiac

Disease Program explained: " gliadin is only in wheat; secalin is the protein in

rye and hordein is the protein in barley. Avenin, the protein in oats, has been

shown not to cause a toxic reaction to the celiac intestine. It is recommended

to limit or avoid oats only because of the potential for cross-contamination by

wheat, rye or barley. "

As I understand it, the body reacts to a specific protein sequence: this

sequence is found in gliadin, secalin, and hordein. That particular sequence is

not found in glutenin, or albumin, or casein -- people can react to those other

proteins and in fact you can get allergies to ANY protein, but the one in

gliadin, secalin, and hordein seems to be extraordinarily nasty, maybe because

it " looks " too much like human protein and so the antibodies that attack it end

up attacking your bodily tissues. Anyway, people just talk about gliadin (or

usually, just " gluten " ) because it's too hard to specify all those others ...

Also people don't eat rye and barley as much. The barley is an issue though

because it is used to make malt, which is used in many breakfast cereals and,

alas, beer.

The fact that only a bit of the protein is needed has been shown because in beer

making, the product is generally filtered and only incomplete peptides get

through the filter. Whole proteins make cloudy beer. But celiacs DO react to

beer a lot -- I can't take it at all, it's worse than bread for some reason,

maybe because those little peptides get into the blood easier?

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

--- Heidi, Coors adds something to their beer to clarify it after

it's filtered I think.. I can't remember what it is but it seems like

it is a starch. I'll ask my contact out there when he gets back from

vacation. Dennis

In , Heidi Schuppenhauer

<heidis@t...> wrote:

>

> >

> >> >>>The gluten-theory could say only wheat has gliaden.

> >>

> >> ----->i'm not sure the name of the proteins in rye and barley

>

> Melin-Rogovin, Program Director, University of Chicago

Center of Celiac Disease Program explained: " gliadin is only in

wheat; secalin is the protein in rye and hordein is the protein in

barley. Avenin, the protein in oats, has been shown not to cause a

toxic reaction to the celiac intestine. It is recommended to limit or

avoid oats only because of the potential for cross-contamination by

wheat, rye or barley. "

>

> As I understand it, the body reacts to a specific protein sequence:

this sequence is found in gliadin, secalin, and hordein. That

particular sequence is not found in glutenin, or albumin, or casein --

people can react to those other proteins and in fact you can get

allergies to ANY protein, but the one in gliadin, secalin, and

hordein seems to be extraordinarily nasty, maybe because it " looks "

too much like human protein and so the antibodies that attack it end

up attacking your bodily tissues. Anyway, people just talk about

gliadin (or usually, just " gluten " ) because it's too hard to specify

all those others ... Also people don't eat rye and barley as much.

The barley is an issue though because it is used to make malt, which

is used in many breakfast cereals and, alas, beer.

>

> The fact that only a bit of the protein is needed has been shown

because in beer making, the product is generally filtered and only

incomplete peptides get through the filter. Whole proteins make

cloudy beer. But celiacs DO react to beer a lot -- I can't take it at

all, it's worse than bread for some reason, maybe because those

little peptides get into the blood easier?

>

> -- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/29/03 9:15:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> It is a ridiculously TINY amount! And what's more, it is from SPROUTED

> barley, which has little protein left anyway. This is what makes me

> believe in homeopathy -- it must be the protein *holes* that cause

> the reaction. Seriously -- I just can't take beer at all, but wine (more

> carbs, more alcohol) is just fine, as is hopped kefir-beer made with

> molasses. But intellectually I still can't believe it.

Heidi,

This could be interpreted from the SCD-theory. Wine is higher in simple

sugars than beer. It is a fruit, starting with simple sugars from the get-go,

and

then it is fermented so if there are any disacharides in grapes to speak of

there wouldn't be in wine. While barley is malted for beer, the other grains

like hops aren't.

The main problem with the interpretation would by why you can handle sorghum

better than beer.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>>The fact that only a bit of the protein is needed has been shown because

in beer making, the product is generally filtered and only incomplete

peptides get through the filter. Whole proteins make cloudy beer.

----->oh shoot! that means the beer that's healthier for you in every other

way, i mean the kind that's unpasteurized and unfiltered, may actually

contain more gluten, or " hordein " :-(

>>>> But celiacs DO react to beer a lot -- I can't take it at all, it's

worse than bread for some reason, maybe because those little peptides get

into the blood easier?

------>maybe they are not so *little* peptides though? the smaller they are,

the less reaction they're likely to elicit because the unique sequence that

is toxic may be partially broken down, right? any idea how many amino acids

in a single gliadin protein? and if it's as toxic in parts as it is when

intact?

the USDA database has the protein content of a 12 oz. beer at 0.30 grams.

i'd assume this is filtered/pasteurized beer. pretty small amount, but not

if you're gluten-sensitive, of course.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

>----->oh shoot! that means the beer that's healthier for you in every other

>way, i mean the kind that's unpasteurized and unfiltered, may actually

>contain more gluten, or " hordein " :-(

Yeah, but on the bright side -- porter is a lot easier to make! If

I can get my hands on some sorghum malt ... I tried making some

molasses beer and it actually turned out pretty darn good, except

I made it too strong (I didn't use a recipe). You could get all the

good stuff in molasses without the sugar ...

Or, next time you are in Kanuck-land:

http://www.baluchon.com/bnf/nos_bieres_ang.cfm

>>>>> But celiacs DO react to beer a lot -- I can't take it at all, it's

>worse than bread for some reason, maybe because those little peptides get

>into the blood easier?

>

>------>maybe they are not so *little* peptides though? the smaller they are,

>the less reaction they're likely to elicit because the unique sequence that

>is toxic may be partially broken down, right? any idea how many amino acids

>in a single gliadin protein? and if it's as toxic in parts as it is when

>intact?

Ah, great minds are debating that question as we speak! Every so often someone

pops

up and says they have identified " the " sequence. Then other people

disagree, or say there is not just one sequence.

The beer companies say they are little peptides, just fragments, and not

many of them at that.

>the USDA database has the protein content of a 12 oz. beer at 0.30 grams.

>i'd assume this is filtered/pasteurized beer. pretty small amount, but not

>if you're gluten-sensitive, of course.

It is a ridiculously TINY amount! And what's more, it is from SPROUTED

barley, which has little protein left anyway. This is what makes me

believe in homeopathy -- it must be the protein *holes* that cause

the reaction. Seriously -- I just can't take beer at all, but wine (more

carbs, more alcohol) is just fine, as is hopped kefir-beer made with

molasses. But intellectually I still can't believe it.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>>>Or, next time you are in Kanuck-land:

http://www.baluchon.com/bnf/nos_bieres_ang.cfm

----->oh wow...that buckwheat amber looks scrumptous!

>>>>> But celiacs DO react to beer a lot -- I can't take it at all, it's

>worse than bread for some reason, maybe because those little peptides get

>into the blood easier?

>

>------>maybe they are not so *little* peptides though? the smaller they

are,

>the less reaction they're likely to elicit because the unique sequence that

>is toxic may be partially broken down, right? any idea how many amino acids

>in a single gliadin protein? and if it's as toxic in parts as it is when

>intact?

Ah, great minds are debating that question as we speak! Every so often

someone pops

up and says they have identified " the " sequence. Then other people

disagree, or say there is not just one sequence.

----->so, as far as you know, no one really knows yet for sure how many

amino acids are the minimum amount in gliadin that elicit an immune

response? do they have any clue yet? like, is it over a hundred, or closer

to 10?

i was just searching to find out how many amino acids make up a gliadin

protein and ran across this fascinationg page of abstracts on the genetics

of celiac's and gluten-sensitivity. these studies run the gamut from testing

the genetic prevalance of the HLA genes that are associated with celiacs

disease in various populations from Africa to Finland. Apparently some

populations in africa have a very high incidence of CD. one abstract also

discusses discovering some human gene byproducts that bear a striking

resemblence to gliadin proteins. It's from the U. of Arkansas, and is part

of their resource center on celiac disease for medical professionals:

http://www.uams.edu/celiac/Jnl_Clb/genetics.htm

Also on the same site, here's another interesting article:

Gluten-Sensitive Enteropathy, More Prevalent than You Think

http://www.uams.edu/celiac/review/GSE1.htm

oh! aha...here is a reference to the amount of *peptides* on a chain that

elicit an immune repsonse from this article. that would be minimum of 22

amino acids, with 2 being the minimum to form a peptide, but could be much

higher:

" Current theories hold that ingested 11-15 peptide long fragments of

alpha-gliadin (and related) peptides bind with tissue transglutaminase (a

ubiquitous intracellular enzyme) in the enterocyte. Alpha-gliadin is rich

in glutamine. Transglutaminase deamidates the glutamine residues forming

glutamic acid. Deamidation dramatically enhances the immunogenicity of the

peptide creating epitopes that are recognized as foreign by host

cell-mediated immunity.[2] "

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

>Heidi,

>

>This could be interpreted from the SCD-theory. Wine is higher in simple

>sugars than beer. It is a fruit, starting with simple sugars from the get-go,

and

>then it is fermented so if there are any disacharides in grapes to speak of

>there wouldn't be in wine. While barley is malted for beer, the other grains

>like hops aren't.

Well, when I get some GF beer we can test the theory! Hops aren't a grain

though, they are an herb. I found that out when I started growing some.

Actually they are a HUGE vine that takes over your balcony, but pretty.

>The main problem with the interpretation would by why you can handle sorghum

>better than beer.

Sorghum malt is supposed to be cheap, but it is considered to be contaminated

with wheat usually. I can get sorghum seed, and try malting my own, but I

haven't

been that motivated yet! However, a bigger problem is that most commercial

beer yeast is grown in barley -- so I'll probably wait for the new GF beer to

hit the Seattle market (or at least mail order). I think beer is handled very

differently that plain starches.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

> " Current theories hold that ingested 11-15 peptide long fragments of

>alpha-gliadin (and related) peptides bind with tissue transglutaminase (a

>ubiquitous intracellular enzyme) in the enterocyte. Alpha-gliadin is rich

>in glutamine. Transglutaminase deamidates the glutamine residues forming

>glutamic acid. Deamidation dramatically enhances the immunogenicity of the

>peptide creating epitopes that are recognized as foreign by host

>cell-mediated immunity.[2] "

Guess you answered your own question! I have not followed the chemistry

of the reaction as well as I should. There was a good article recently

about the exact protein chain they were suspecting, but I can't find

it right now ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>>>>Guess you answered your own question! I have not followed the chemistry

of the reaction as well as I should. There was a good article recently

about the exact protein chain they were suspecting, but I can't find

it right now ...

---->oh boy, i'd love to see that! if you ever find it, please do post it!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...