OT: Some Opinions on What's Going Down

[Guest guest]

Butch, For myself, I am glad you wrote the article. At least it helps some

people understand more about these countries. Thank you for the service.

[Guest guest]

Amen.

and thanks. I hope you don't mind me sharing what you wrote with some of my

friends. Many will think you are being too harsh, but we need to face

realities. Our country is the first to come to the aid of anyone in need.

If Afganistan had an earthquake, we'd still probably be the first to send

financial support. I am not in favor of widespread retaliation and bombing

of innocent people because they have been taught hatred of us, but if we

could selectively destroy ben Laden and the others that are behind the

terrorism, I'd be all for it. We do need to be careful, but something must

be done. And I appreciated the humor in some of your descriptive terms. (I

must remember the bovine excrement one. ) Thanks

[Guest guest]

Butch put OT in subject. anyone that does not want to read OT material has

the wonderful little delete option.

[Guest guest]

Such an ugly display and explanation of your thoughts.....

May the God/dess extinguish brutal hatred that spewed forth....

OT: Some Opinions on What's Going Down

[Guest guest]

Such an ugly display and explanation of your thoughts.....

May the God/dess extinguish brutal hatred that spewed forth....

OT: Some Opinions on What's Going Down

[Guest guest]

Dear Butch,

While you're certainly entitled to your opinions, I think a toiletries list is

not quite the right forum for such an incendiary and vulgar rant. Could we

please get back on topic?

Thanks,

C

[Guest guest]

Butch,

You missed one very important fact, and that is that terrorists don't stay

in one place for very long.

The chance that Osama bin Laden is still in Afghanistan is pretty well nil,

I would think.

And if we go in there like Wayne, we will be the ones who will regret

it. While we

are the greatest might in the world when it comes to conventional warfare,

our record

shows we don't do so well in guerilla warfare situations.

Pakistan may be in a tough situation, but what better way to insure the

safety of someone

they consider a hero, get back at a country they hate and feel betrayed by

AND cover their

own butts, than to feign cooperation? They didn't close their border, I'm

sure he is already

safely hidden away, but we can't very well go after him there can we?

JMHO

Heidi

----- Original Message -----

From: " Butch Owen " <butchbsi@...>

> Hi friends .. and the rest or y'all too ... ;-)

<long post snipped to save space>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/15/01 12:40:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

butchbsi@... writes:

<< I chuckle when I hear that so many countries that have been supporting,

defending, training and encourging Terrorist activities are now acting

as if they are shocked that such a thing could happen - and are claiming

loyalty and support for America and the other civilized countries that

they think might be coming after their ass .. ;-) >>

Butch, i love your thoughts always so full of enthusiasm and you stik to your

guns but i wanted to let you and every one else know America trained Osama

Bin Ladin at their terroist training facilities ,my husband is in the

millitary and was stattion at one of the US Army bases he was trained at.

Unfourtunately he is so good (if that is the right wording ) because he was

trained by the best. regretfully, tamika

[Guest guest]

Butch,

thank you for you rational and inteligent thoughts/input on the recent

tragic events. Unfortunatly, to many Americans don't bother to know more

than what those idiots on ABC, NBC and CBS say. In the words of Col.

Stanislav Lunev, the highest ranking militarty spy ever to defect from

Russia " I am continually amazed at how easy the American government makes it

for enemies to penetrate American society and institutions. I am also amazed

how many American Jounalists dislike America, and openly work against this

country. " We see this every day on the national network news coverage, and

this is the information so many Americans use to form thier opinions. They

just swallow the pap that comes out of the mouths of the likes of

Jennings, Brokaw et all. I am always to happy to meet and talk with people

that have the brains to seek other sources of information.

By the way, in the article I read by Col. Lunev, he also stated that these

attacts upon America are NOT over, and that President Bush did absolutely

the correct thing in his actions on Tuesday (by not returning to DC right

away) As the col. said " The President's sole real repsonsibility is to

preserve your Constitutional Government, not to hold press conferences " . I

for one never had a single doubt that fateful day, that our president was in

CONSTANT contact with those he would have been with, HAD he been at the

White House. The power and command center are with him, wherever he is.

Those network pundits making snarky remarks about how that whole thing was

just spin, he wasnt in danger, and should have been " comforting " the

American People make me sick. This is the time for Americans to stick

together and stand behind our President. What a hard task is before him, as

you said Butch, one that has never been before as US President before now.

Those of you who would critisize Pres. Bush, imagine if this had happened on

9-11-00--------

Our President, (Bill Clinton) would have made sure to appear frequently in

front of the cameras, with (those fake) tears we saw so often running down

his face, arms raised vowing to " work harder on this than I have ever worked

before " getting on with his job of " working for the American people " . Then a

few days later, bomb an asperin factory, or a tent city, brush off his hands

and proclaim that " HE had taken care of those terrorists, and we could all

just rest easy " If it had happened a year ago, it would have been all about

Bill Clinton. In comparison, Pres. Bush, while appearing in front of the

cameras here and there, goes more quietly about the business of what it is

really going to take to rid the world of these terrorist and find the

perpertrators of the horrid acts that took place on Tuesday. He knows this

is going to be a long and ongoing process. And there is something else that

W is keeping quiet about. And that is the proven fact that it is Mr. Clinton

himself that helped to bring these tragedies to fruitition. That it was

Clinton that reduced the funding in our inteligence dept. to almost nil.

That it was Clinton that worked (probably harder than he ever had before) to

reduce the size and power of our inteligence agencies. That it was CLinton

himself who raised the standards for Inteligence officers to such a high

standard that they could NO longer be met by anyone, hence our intelegence

forces could no longer effectively do thier jobs, I myself cant even hazzard

a guess as to why he would do these things, but he did do them. But Bush is

not taking this oportunity to take pot shots or place blame. That is not his

way, unfortunatly.

I did not know much of what you wrote about. But I found it all most

interesting.

I pray for our country, and our President. I am proud to see how America has

stood proud, and I am thrilled to see the resurgence of Patriotism. Not to

mention the resurgence of Religion, it is suddenly PC to mention God, to

pray, to even have God mentioned by our own government leaders. Amazing.

Thank you again Butch. I realize you are going to recieve some flaming

arrows ( and me too) but, so many americans are really inocent to these

things and the way that things are in the world. No one likes war. But it is

sometimes necessary.

sincerly

christina

A/K/A

chriss

from the Ak. Soapers List

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/15/01 1:58:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Lzrd637@...

writes:

<< Butch, For myself, I am glad you wrote the article. At least it helps

some

people understand more about these countries. Thank you for the service. >>

I agree, and I don't have a problem with things like this being discussed

right now on the Toiletries list. That's just my personal opinion, but we

are sort of " family " here, and when tragedy strikes, it's only natural for

people to reach out to each other. Ordinarily, I'd say political

discussions don't belong here, but something exceptional has happened, so

exceptions have to be made...

Christy

[Guest guest]

Hi friends .. and the rest or y'all too ... ;-)

Below are my opinions on a few things going down and about to go down.

I get the impression from some isolated statements that border on the

ridiculous that some folks don't have a grasp of the scenario - don't

see the big picture. This will give you but one of many perspectives

possible to glean from current events - let you know who the players

are. It's nice to know this since we're getting ready to kick ass!

I might change some of these opinions in the next few days but most of

the information below is just a repeating of facts as they are so there

is no room for change of opinion.

I chuckle when I hear that so many countries that have been supporting,

defending, training and encourging Terrorist activities are now acting

as if they are shocked that such a thing could happen - and are claiming

loyalty and support for America and the other civilized countries that

they think might be coming after their ass .. ;-)

Reminds me of the tale of when the Lone Ranger and Tonto were surrounded

by forty-eleven zillion screaming angry, armed to the teeth Indians.

Lone Ranger told Tonto, " Well ol' friend, looks like we're in a heapa

trouble. " Tonto comes back with, " What you mean 'we' .. white man? "

I chuckle when I hear some obsessively partisan members of some lists

spout their feeble attempts to bad mouth our Commander in Chief .. this

President (Dubya) is facing a situation that is more difficult than any

previous President has had to face in the history of this country and he

is doing one hellva outstanding job. In order to preempt the two or

four who will claim (without vaiable support for the statements except

the snakes in their heads) I'm wrong and he is really is doing a crappy

job - here's the results of the latest from an ABC Poll (thanks Joe) ..

" global outpouring of sympathy & condolences to the USA is overwhelming.

Nearly 9 in 10 Americans, 86 percent, say they approve of the job that

Bush is doing as President. Moreover, 91 percent say the President is

doing a good job directing the nation's response. " Of course, 90% can

be wrong and disgruntled folks can be right .. ;-p

Any of you who have worked contingencies know that folks are now working

round the clock. The President of the United States and his staff will

need this kind of sustained support for what is surely to come. I am

proud of our Congress - they know the value of bi-partisan support.

There are some other countries who have either allowed or been directly

involved with training and support of Terrorist Organizations for many

years - identification of those countries on this list would result in

argements from those who are NOT in the know - they would feel a need to

deny and support those countries. But facts are facts and I am not the

one who compiled the information on their activities - it's just the way

it is. One is a Western country that has been on the State Department's

(unpublished) List of Countries Sponsoring Terrorism for years - it's

near and dear to most Americans as we have more American citizens from

that country than their present home population. It is NOT Israel.

You see, America has been forced to have double standards when they

publish such lists - not saying it's right but they are concerned with

the voting impact - some lobbys are powerful so we stick bad info on

these countries in a drawer and try to deal with them one-on-one as

friends. Doesn't always work either. But I'll tell you this - they are

kissing butt now - they do not want to be identified among those who

have supported Terrorism - especially the one that is a member of NATO!

But - if we look at the list of international Terrorism organizations,

we find headquarters for many of them in France, Germany, Netherlands,

Italy, UK .. and other countries .. including the USA!!!! Is it smart

to stretch the meaning of freedom to a point of allowing known Terrorist

organizations to have planning headquarters in your country because they

claim to be political arms of those organizations? HELL NO!!!

Some folks are claiming that the USA brought all this on themselves by

training Osama ben Laden .. bovine excrement this is! The USA did train

him - and thousands of others who are not extremists or Terrorists - as

have most of the larger Western countries. We also trained thousands of

Cubans who are now valuable members of our society. France trained the

dude that later kicked their butt at Dien Bein Phu - Ho Chi Minh - abd

gave asylum to the dude that took over Iran and brought on the Islamic

Revolution - Khomeini. Italy, England and Russia trained many of the

Generals I used to work with in Somalia .. Generals who later became the

War Lords who destroyed the country and killed a lot of Westerners. I

could go on and on but I think I've made my point. This is no different

than parents raising and training a child who winds up being a serial

killer or blowing up a building in Oklahoma.

I have trained with officers from many countries - to include Iranians

who later turned on us. Should we provide no training to foreign folks

because they might later turn rogue?

Those of you who are not aware of the political realities of the world

today might want to do a bit of research - research beyond CNN.

On some of the Islamic countries:

Afghanistan is controlled by a bunch of idiotic outlaws - the Taliban.

They have insulted the world with their outrageous violations of human

behavior - their violation of the principles of the Geneva Convention in

their destruction of arts, monuments, archieves and institutions - they

are in violation of all that the United Nations and the civilized world

stands for .. and they are in deep shit now. They have threatened any

country that assists the West against them. They plan to hit Americans

where ever we are and there are many of us who would love to get a round

of two off on some of those scumbags. They have said that all countries

must have total faith in Allah (God) and the Taliban will effectively

resist the criminal activities of the West.

The thought of them being a threat to the West, besides perpetrating

cowardly and criminal acts of Terrorism, reminds me of a pissant

crawling up an elephant's ass with rape on his mind.

The country of Afghanistan has a small, narrow border with China, but is

surrounded by Iran, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.

Through Turkey - one of our longest term, most loyal, and most powerful

allies - we have good relations with the former three countries - we can

gain their support if we need them.

The distance from the Arabian Sea to Afghanistan is half that of the

distance from Incirlik Air Base, Adana, Turkey. Incirlik is designated

as the main jumping off point for NATO punitive and preempt strikes on

those who deserve it - those who are in the butt pucker mode now. ;-p

Pakistan is twixt a rock and a hard place - betray the Taliban who they

have supported in preparing for criminal actions - or get their ass

kicked. Either way they are gonna lose - the military dictator will

lose face in the Islamic World and will lose respect of those officers

who helped him come to power. But he deserves this.

I have mixed emotions about allowing the Pakistanis to get away with

their support for the Taliban - I don't think one should be allowed to

aid those who commit criminal acts and then be forgiven because they say

they are sorry. But - on a strategic and tactical level, America is

smart to give Pakistan a chance to help us - they can do much for us and

save us untold days and dollars in intelligence collection. As for the

demand for use of their land for takeoffs, that's another of the heavy

demands we're placing to make their final decision more difficult. It's

highly possible the Pakistani decisions for support of the USA might not

be enough - we'll see .. but they are showing their cowardice in either

regard. I have trained with Pakistani Officers and I have never been

surprised at their support for Islamic Fundamentalists ..

Palestine .. Arafat cannot control the Palestinians .. they have already

become infected with an extremist mentality .. they have screwed their

own cause by doing so. Prior to this incident, there were many American

citizens in support of the Palestinians .. these folks didn't have to be

in opposition to Israel to be in support of the Palestinians ... they

were just like most Americans - we tend to support underdogs. But I'll

bet a purty that there is not much support now - not after seeing them

dancing in the streets and celebrating our misfortune.

Sudan .. things haven't changed much since the Mahdi slaughtered British

forces there in the 1800s .. they really don't deserve a lot of mention

except to say that most of you don't even know the capital - so that's

how significant they are. In the mid-80s, I was selected to command and

lead a rescue mission (NEO) of US Embassy folks in Khartum. The mission

was aborted before we could execute and I had 80 very frustrated young

Military Police volunteers .. it would have been a good experience.

Libya's Khadifi ... that Shithead is as sincere as a high sheriff

kissing babies on election day. We are gonna get his ass someday -

today, tomorrow - who knows? But we're gonna get his ass someday.

Iran's new president is an honorable man - but he has been unable to do

anything toward changing the national policies of the totally Islamic

Terrorist supporting and instigating government of the Mullahs.

Iraq .. well .. what do I need to say about Iraq?

Syria's new King is a breath of fresh air - but even he has not been

able to change generations of loyal support for those who hated Israel

and those who consider themselves to be friends of Israel.

Lebanon doesn't count - they (like Somalia) haven't had a government in

a long time - they have no voice - they are pissants on a string.

Algeria can't control their own people - they have slaughters of their

villagers on a routine basis - normally throats are slit.

Tunisa .. they don't support Terrorism .. no problems there. I've

trained with Tunisian Officers - good folks they are.

Saudi has no Terrorist problems - but they are one of the main sources

of the export of Islamic fundamentalism to so-called moderate Islamic

states. They, like Oman, keep a chicken in each pot and a car in every

garage - there is no room for individual thought - just do your duty to

Allah or we'll cut your damn head off! When an alternate source of

energy is found, they will have to learn how to eat sand.

The problem with ALL the Islamic countries is that they have tolerated

Islamic Terrorism for many years - they've done this because it suited

their interests to not piss off their citizens. Even those that didn't

give direct support posed no objections and in most cases tacitly

accepted the terrorists as long as it didn't affect their internal

operations. The West has long said that it was the duty of the Islamic

countries to police their own people and stop terrorism at the source.

Our good friend, Egypt got upset only when their terrorists started

attacking foreign tourists because it curtailed one of the only two

sources of foreign income they could gain - it is only from tourism and

export that a country can gain hard currency.

Jordan .. perhaps the most solid of the Islamic countries - Turkey is

far more solid but Turkey is NOT an Islamic country. The young King of

Jordan is a chip off the old block - his father was a GREAT man and I'm

thinking he will be too. Jordan has always had to do a balancing act

twixt their Palestinean and Beduin peoples - and have done a good job.

Jordan does not tolerate Terrorism and does not support Terrorism.

As for those who are not so friendly with the USA:

Russia is not our enemy now. They are afraid of us because the entire

philosophy of Soviet mentality was built on the events of the Second

World War - they were paranoid and wanted that buffer of Soviet States

twixt them and the rest of the world - that paranoia still exists.

Commie China is not a true supporter of Terrorism - they are far more

interested in buying up US technology. But someday, maybe after I'm

long since under snakes - the West is gonna have to deal with China.

North Korea is an Outlaw State - a Rogue State .. but they are too busy

destroying their own people and plotting against South Korea - they are

not a player in this scenario. If they don't implode, they will have to

be dealt with someday - they will become a danger to the world - time!

Cuba has never been what one could call a supporter of Terrorism - in

truth, I have respect for Fidel Castro .. the people of Cuba are not

victimized on a daily basis and I think history will portray him as a

benevolent dictator. I think the mutal hatred between Cuba and the USA

is far more superficial than most think and it's based on what should

now be considered as unreal fear that's been overcome by events.

Off the top of my head - when I think of the major countries of the

world, I classify them as follows - just my opinion:

Our True Friends .. that is, those who I THINK will stand beside us with

total support, no reservations or qualifications. England, Canada,

Australia, Ireland, Germany, Israel .. and Turkey.

Our Good Friends .. those who I THINK will stand beside us with a bit of

caution or reservation. France, Mexico, Spain, India .. and Taiwan.

Our Fair Weather Friends .. those who I THINK will give us support with

the level of lip service they think is necessary. Netherlands, Japan,

Italy, Russia, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway .. and Greece.

The reasons I classify as above are many and the fact that a country is

listed as it is does not necessarily reflect their level of civilized

behavior .. might be that they are not in a position to do more due to

the demands of their own citizens. I would like to be wrong on the last

group - but believe I will not be.

Understand that even those countries that are members of NATO are not

obligated to provide military forces to a NATO operation. Article 5 is

a resolution that allows NATO to function as one body but it does not

take the rights of autonomy from any country .. there will be some NATO

countries wimp out on this - you will see .. ;-(

BUT - the level of support given by this or that country will show us

all much about that country. The word being passed from US Ambassadors

to their foreign counterparts now - as you read this - is .. in my

words, " Shit or git off the pot - you are either with us or you are

against us! " This is not a time for pantywaist political niceties!!

I remember the fairy tale of Henny Penny - she found some wheat and

wanted help grinding it, making the dough and cooking the bread - none

of the barnyard animals wanted to help. But when it came time to eat

the bread they all wanted some. Those countries who do not give their

total and loyal support to those that want to rid the world of Terrorism

might be the next to suffer from Terrorist activities. In my opinion,

they don't deserve any of the bread we're cooking now!

Aside from the list of countries above - understand that almost without

exception, Americans whose origin is one of those countries are united

as Americans. It's hard for one who is not an American to understand

how easy it is to become an American in heart, mind and spirit .. I have

discussed this with foreign born Americans for more than 45 years and I

am no longer surprised - I know what they will say before they say it.

Except for our Native Americans, we are a nation of foreigners .. even

the origin of the Native Americans is one that could generate lots of

discussion but no need for that now. But we are a nation of Americans!

Bottom line - the world is united and pissed - America is resolute and

determined to punish those who deserve it - and this will not be a one

time one night hit - it will be a long term effort where any thought of

supporting Terrorism will make butts pucker. The rules of engagement

for the present include primarily military force - the future rules will

include military force, diplomatic efforts and economic isolation.

In the past, economic concerns took precedent - many European countries

developed trade with some of the countries that we all knew were into

support of Terrorism .. such as Iran and Libya. This crap will not be

allowed in the future - if country A wants to continue their business

dealings with a Terrorist supporting country they will be exposed to the

contempt of other countries - I hope! These efforts must work and when

they do, the world will be a better place.

I believe the deaths of the innocents in the planes, in the World Trade

Center, in the Pentagon and surrounds, and the honored sacrifices of the

many heroic firefighters, police personnel, medics and other assistance

personnal who knowing the dangers, voluntarily went in harms way to help

others and then gave their all, will not have been in vain.

God Bless America ... Butch

[Guest guest]

Hi,

As a mother of an Airborne Ranger, whose friends died in Somalia and other

places, (read Black Hawk Down) I do see where Butch is coming from and

understand that it is not hate. Some people, however do not want to hear

anything that doesn't co-incide with their ideas. Now that is diffinately

intolerance. Gee, those who did this evil crime know about intolerance don't

they?

I am a woman whose father went to war. I watched 2 of my brothers go and

another go twice. I kissed my husband off to Vietnam twice. Not to mention

Korea and other places. Finally, I watched as a young man was being dragged

through the streets of Mogadichu (spelling). I watched for so long knowing full

well it was possibly my son. I listened for the phone to ring for a week. I

was a crazy woman til it did. After another mission, I listened while he told

of going through his fallen buddies things to send home to the family. I helped

write the letter. One never gets used to these things. I know the horrors of

war. I do not want him to go again. I do not want anyone to go again. BUT

because I have lived through these things, I KNOW the hell that is going on in

NY and across the nation as we wait for word of our loved ones. Each day the

hope is fading. I do NOT want this to happen again! This MUST be stopped

before your children are under the cement of a fallen building. Before YOU are

the victim of Terrorism! I NEVER want another phone call like the one I got

Tue. " Mom, Todd, went to the Pentagon today and I can't find him. What am I

going to do? "

I know something must be done. I despise war, but I despise terrorism even

more. Sorry for ranting but I also have a hole in my heart. Again!

KayeGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com