Re: Multiple Chemical Sensitivity Debate: We know the answer to this

[Guest guest]

Angel!! wrote:

> Then why do ALL the people I PERSONALLY know with CI have NO

REACTIONS to mold?!

>

> Others I know in other areas OUTSIDE OF VEGAS developed SOME and

noticed I said SOME reaction but NOTHING that I have seen posted on

this borad. Granted there are a few on this board that really suffer

from mold related expsoures. That does NOT equated that mold

sensitivity is going to be acquired by everyone!

>

I never went so far as to propose that mold sensitivity was going to

be acquired by everyone - with or without MCS. All I said was that

all the chemically sensitive people I have accompanied into a

mycotoxin exposure have shown signs of reactivity.

They were unaware that this was mold and always blamed it on

something else and remained unaware because they are looking for an

allergic type reaction.

It appears that the purest form of trichothecene mycotoxin exposure

is not like people expect - with obvous signs like allergic symptoms

or the presence noxious odors. It is when something that is

supposed to happen simply stops: Immune programming and cardiac

efficiency.

When I was at a point where I was given no options to survive, I

figured out a way and predicted that there would be many more like

me to follow.

People decided to raise interminable arguments why this was never

going to happen instead of seeing that it is happening before their

eyes.

And now many are going to have to fight for their lives just like I

did.

There will be plenty of research. Sooner or later. I see no signs

that this phenomenon is slowing down and quite a few that it is

accelerating.

-

[Guest guest]

I cannot fully weigh in on the ongoing debates on all the conditions and which

cause which. (Very educated people in EACH disease and category will fight to

the death that IT is the original culprit of all others.)

For me, I have 21 yrs, ME/CFS, in increments developed MCS/CI. For years, I

practiced pretty strict Mold avoidance, not because I had symptoms, but because

of a very Mold-ill friend, and other ME/CFS types, sick from Mold.and Mom

w/asthma + reactions.

(so, me, immune-compromised, on general principles)

Then I noticed

A) SX from brief Mold exposures, then growing difficulty avoiding it.

Same being true of dust.

And getting worse.

Chemical reaction and mold, dust reactions very different.

C) For a few years, I also have EMF reactions.

All of these are distinguishable, immediadate,(even when " the thing " is 1st

unseen),

and now very significant. But not as extreme as most extremely affected.

There are MANY findings in ME/CFS research that may set stage for all of this,

or each may have seperate aquirements. NO ONE (Specialists, me, or you)

know entire causes. because answers not all in/explored.

About Research:

I wish it could all be pooled, Scientifically, rather than emotional,

argumentively. Out of all the tons we know, I am sure there is much we do

not...*already found*. Plus more that will be found.

Such as, people are reactive or at end point for different reasons, and by

different triggers.

Some are flaws/deficits/damage in " the terrrain " of the body, either acquired,

or genetic. Which *may* or *may not* be repairable.

Some is the toxic overload period, affecting all humans, some showing sooner,

or more dramatically. Or mass sudden exposure with permanent effects.

A couple of items of research:

THere is an enzyme in MCS/CI/GWS (sorry, it's missing or damaged?),

accounting/contributing to chemical injury/illness. It's only purpose seeming

to be for this.

Has this or anything similar been found with moldies?

There is research connecting NMDA receptors with MCS/CI. And blocking them to

stop/minimize reactions. And Nitric oxide stuff.

( Pall's work for one.)

Is this, or anything similar in Moldies or M research?

About chemicals in furniture, . Besides what's already there, Mold

escalate/compounds the outgassing. So is that an either/or, or synergistic

reaction? Terrain, or exposure only?

{solvent exposure opens blood/brain barrior, triggering viral attack/damage.

{chicken/egg, synergistic?, etc.}

Most major reactors agree that total avoidance is NO. 1 solution.

But with...

A) Growing proliferation of Chemicals, EMFs, Molds

INcreasing numbers reactive to all

C) Increasing numbers trying or unable to get to fewer areas of safety

D) Both the inabilites, AND different defs of " Quality of Life " (a life of

solitude in desert, or RV, or killing oneself to get there, may not be it) vary

widely,

....Tho someone here screamed bloody murder on this topic, I think the research

on " repairing terrain " (in body) is extremely important.

I know there is some on MCS/CI, EMFs, ME/CFS, and Neurogenerative diseases.. Is

there any on Moldies? Please don't scream, I just want to see it.

People with Cancer, HepC, other may douse themselves with poison Chemo,

Radiation, or mutilation to others's horror for chance at recovery/remission.

Sometimes with success, and living many further productive years.

Some people will refuse Chemo, Radiation, surgery,other, to others horror, even

if it means dying.

Besides differences of $$$$$$$, support, abilities, and knowledge, people's

definition of Quality of Life vary quite widely. The more I've aquired, in

damages, knowledge, and witnessing, the LESS I know for positive, what is best

for anyone, or even me for the next phase (it changes)...for healing, serenity,

Quality of Life, Life itself.

Just have to keep weighing and learning, and hopefully Living.

Warring *among ourselves* seems least productive/healing.

I wish it could be framed in Science, and personal experience/choice only.

I do not see that in any group, some less than others.

A bunch of convoluted points to ponder under convoluted conditions.

Katrina

> >>>> Who on earth would knowingly, willingly, and purposely expose

> > an MCS

> >>> person to mold when they knew what it could do to them? Or DO

> > you know

> >>> what it can do to them? Do you carry a portable detox chamber?

> >>> Epipen? Are you fully training and certified in all the forms of

> >>> rescucitation you might need to know?

> >>> Did you just happily skip over the part where there is actual,

> >>> responsible medical testing available these days making it

> > possible

> >>> to KNOW what their sensitivity to mycotoxins is?

> >>>

> >>> These people aren't your personal little lab rats,

> >>> . " Specificalize " on your own time, man. <

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> Yes, I DID just happily skip over the " actual, responsible

> > medical

> >>> testing " part.

> >>> And VERY happily so, because the " experts " are flat out wrong

> >>> regarding the circumstances and consequences of mycotoxin

> > exposure.

> >>> Their approach is misguided and arises from a false premise

> > which they

> >>> failed to re-check. (Yes, I used to subscribe to The Objectivist

> >>> Newsletter and read Ayn Rand and iel Branden too)

> >>> The entire thrust of your analytical process indicates that you

> > share

> >>> their fundamental misunderstandings and limitations.

> >>> For example, when you stated the necessity and importance of

> > medical

> >>> testing, my thought was to ask why someone would accept the

> > validity

> >>> of such results over their own perceptions?

> >>> I tested my own response, treated it as valid - despite all

> >>> assertions to the contrary, and I believe that my situation is

> > now

> >>> supprted by the science that Dr Shoemakers developed to measure

> > the

> >>> experience of those who have duplicated my circumstances.

> >>> I find medical testing to be completely unnecessary to arrive at

> > an

> >>> understanding of this reactivity. Especially when such testing

> > can be

> >>> self conducted with such ease.

> >>> Like it or not, we are exposed to mycotoxins every day, and my

> > level

> >>> of reactivity allows me to witness a simultaneity of response in

> >>> others.

> >>> I know what they are responding to although they do not

> > generally

> >>> know or admit it themselves because " You ain't the doctor "

> > and " Who do

> >>> you think you are " interferes with their objective assessment of

> > the

> >>> results of our non clinical - real world test situation.

> >>> They have indeed become my unwitting " lab rats " .

> >>> Your misplaced faith in medicine and rejection of the concept of

> >>> individualized perception has not stood you in good stead and is

> > an

> >>> obstacle to taking better control of your illness.

> >>> Yes, I do carry around my own portable detox chamber and this

> > IS my

> >>> own time.

> >>> -

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> FAIR USE NOTICE:

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

[Guest guest]

Why are you so insistent that you have to bring mold into

everything....Read what you wrote.....Apparently, my ad nasuseum comments

about one immune compromised system could lead to other sensitivities is

not being understood by you.

YOu are dragging this out ad nauseum...writing and rewriting the same

thing in different verbage.

Give it a rest...the board is probably as over-saturuated with your posts

in response to mine as I am. I am killing this thread as I have my toxic

chemical overload of your theories and extrapolations.

> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 05:03:34 -0000 From: erikmoldwarrior

> <erikmoldwarrior@...> Reply-

> Subject: [] Re: Multiple

> Chemical Sensitivity Debate: We know

> the answer to this

>

> Angel!! wrote:

>

>> Then why do ALL the people I PERSONALLY know with CI have NO

> REACTIONS to mold?!

>>

>> Others I know in other areas OUTSIDE OF VEGAS developed SOME and

> noticed I said SOME reaction but NOTHING that I have seen posted on

> this borad. Granted there are a few on this board that really suffer

> from mold related expsoures. That does NOT equated that mold

> sensitivity is going to be acquired by everyone!

>>

>

> I never went so far as to propose that mold sensitivity was going to

> be acquired by everyone - with or without MCS. All I said was that

> all the chemically sensitive people I have accompanied into a

> mycotoxin exposure have shown signs of reactivity.

> They were unaware that this was mold and always blamed it on

> something else and remained unaware because they are looking for an

> allergic type reaction.

> It appears that the purest form of trichothecene mycotoxin exposure

> is not like people expect - with obvous signs like allergic symptoms

> or the presence noxious odors. It is when something that is

> supposed to happen simply stops: Immune programming and cardiac

> efficiency.

> When I was at a point where I was given no options to survive, I

> figured out a way and predicted that there would be many more like

> me to follow.

> People decided to raise interminable arguments why this was never

> going to happen instead of seeing that it is happening before their

> eyes.

> And now many are going to have to fight for their lives just like I

> did.

> There will be plenty of research. Sooner or later. I see no signs

> that this phenomenon is slowing down and quite a few that it is

> accelerating.

> -

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well said Katrina. There are many reasons/triggers that many of us

experience, have or may, been the reasoning behind our MCS illness.

There is no one answer that fits all. Whatever the reason may be

that many of the " moldies " are experiencing MCS, I don't have the

answer. Bottomline it is a chemical overload. Whether it is from

mycotoxins, pesticides, fungicides, perfumes, petrol products, we

have it. Now let's find a solution.

KC

> > >>>> Who on earth would knowingly, willingly, and purposely

expose

> > > an MCS

> > >>> person to mold when they knew what it could do to them? Or DO

> > > you know

> > >>> what it can do to them? Do you carry a portable detox

chamber?

> > >>> Epipen? Are you fully training and certified in all the

forms of

> > >>> rescucitation you might need to know?

> > >>> Did you just happily skip over the part where there is

actual,

> > >>> responsible medical testing available these days making it

> > > possible

> > >>> to KNOW what their sensitivity to mycotoxins is?

> > >>>

> > >>> These people aren't your personal little lab rats,

> > >>> . " Specificalize " on your own time, man. <

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>> Yes, I DID just happily skip over the " actual, responsible

> > > medical

> > >>> testing " part.

> > >>> And VERY happily so, because the " experts " are flat out wrong

> > >>> regarding the circumstances and consequences of mycotoxin

> > > exposure.

> > >>> Their approach is misguided and arises from a false premise

> > > which they

> > >>> failed to re-check. (Yes, I used to subscribe to The

Objectivist

> > >>> Newsletter and read Ayn Rand and iel Branden too)

> > >>> The entire thrust of your analytical process indicates that

you

> > > share

> > >>> their fundamental misunderstandings and limitations.

> > >>> For example, when you stated the necessity and importance of

> > > medical

> > >>> testing, my thought was to ask why someone would accept the

> > > validity

> > >>> of such results over their own perceptions?

> > >>> I tested my own response, treated it as valid - despite all

> > >>> assertions to the contrary, and I believe that my situation

is

> > > now

> > >>> supprted by the science that Dr Shoemakers developed to

measure

> > > the

> > >>> experience of those who have duplicated my circumstances.

> > >>> I find medical testing to be completely unnecessary to

arrive at

> > > an

> > >>> understanding of this reactivity. Especially when such

testing

> > > can be

> > >>> self conducted with such ease.

> > >>> Like it or not, we are exposed to mycotoxins every day, and

my

> > > level

> > >>> of reactivity allows me to witness a simultaneity of

response in

> > >>> others.

> > >>> I know what they are responding to although they do not

> > > generally

> > >>> know or admit it themselves because " You ain't the doctor "

> > > and " Who do

> > >>> you think you are " interferes with their objective

assessment of

> > > the

> > >>> results of our non clinical - real world test situation.

> > >>> They have indeed become my unwitting " lab rats " .

> > >>> Your misplaced faith in medicine and rejection of the

concept of

> > >>> individualized perception has not stood you in good stead

and is

> > > an

> > >>> obstacle to taking better control of your illness.

> > >>> Yes, I do carry around my own portable detox chamber and

this

> > > IS my

> > >>> own time.

> > >>> -

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>> FAIR USE NOTICE:

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>>

[Guest guest]

>>>Well said Katrina. There are many reasons/triggers that many of us

experience, have or may, been the reasoning behind our MCS illness.

There is no one answer that fits all. Whatever the reason may be

that many of the " moldies " are experiencing MCS, I don't have the

answer. Bottomline it is a chemical overload. Whether it is from

mycotoxins, pesticides, fungicides, perfumes, petrol products, we

have it. Now let's find a solution. KC>>>>>

I totally agree KC and Katrina. We have a chemical overload and rather than

discussions of who is right we should focus on a cure and preventative

measures to have a safe living environment. I've been quiet during these

discussions because I've seen MCS people who do not react to mold and others

like me who do.

One particular example is a friend with MCS (pesticide poisoning). When I

first met her she invited me to her home. I immediately reacted when I

entered her closed in porch: full of mold. She has no reaction whatsoever

and is non-reactive in her " safe " home. She spends 1/2 year in a country

home they built for her during the summer fogging for mosquitoes in Houston.

They spent a small fortune on non-toxic products/furniture for her homes

including and organic bed, organic furniture and upholstery. Needless to

say I cannot visit her. I mentioned the mold issue in her home; she says

she's not reacting so it's not a problem for her: I disagree thinking at

some point it will be.

Rosie

[Guest guest]

There is one thing that I will agree on that you both have stated,

obviously MCS is another serious illness with many answered

questions. Not only between you two, but there may be others that

feel very strongly for the reasoning one may experience this

illness.

Many " newbies " that are on the board, much of your information and

research my either confuse them or don't understand. A heated

discussion does not help. So this debate that has been taking place

is gettin a little out of hand and sometimes it needs to remain

simplified for those that don't understand when they are

experiencing MCS symptoms along with many other symptoms from mold

exposure.

One of the main reasons for addressing mold in regard to MCS is that

many (not all) on this board have developed MCS AFTER their exposure

to mycotoxins. That is what is going on here, I don't know what is

going on on other boards, so I am not going to get in an argument

over that. For many of us it is a secondary illness stemming from

the primary exposure, the same as many having fibro, CFS, MS, etc.

all AFTER our mold exposure. Not guessing, FACT in many of our

lives. Mold can not be ignored when discussing MCS, ESPECIALLY HERE.

Any further arguments or further discussions, TAKE TO YOUR EMAILS.

It will not continue here. No one person or their theory is 100%

right or wrong. I'm not taking sides, let the researchers and

professionals do their job because I believe in the end whatever

they determine we will all be included, one way or another.

KC

> >

> >> Then why do ALL the people I PERSONALLY know with CI have NO

> > REACTIONS to mold?!

> >>

> >> Others I know in other areas OUTSIDE OF VEGAS developed SOME and

> > noticed I said SOME reaction but NOTHING that I have seen posted

on

> > this borad. Granted there are a few on this board that really

suffer

> > from mold related expsoures. That does NOT equated that mold

> > sensitivity is going to be acquired by everyone!

> >>

> >

> > I never went so far as to propose that mold sensitivity was

going to

> > be acquired by everyone - with or without MCS. All I said was

that

> > all the chemically sensitive people I have accompanied into a

> > mycotoxin exposure have shown signs of reactivity.

> > They were unaware that this was mold and always blamed it on

> > something else and remained unaware because they are looking for

an

> > allergic type reaction.

> > It appears that the purest form of trichothecene mycotoxin

exposure

> > is not like people expect - with obvous signs like allergic

symptoms

> > or the presence noxious odors. It is when something that is

> > supposed to happen simply stops: Immune programming and cardiac

> > efficiency.

> > When I was at a point where I was given no options to survive,

I

> > figured out a way and predicted that there would be many more

like

> > me to follow.

> > People decided to raise interminable arguments why this was never

> > going to happen instead of seeing that it is happening before

their

> > eyes.

> > And now many are going to have to fight for their lives just

like I

> > did.

> > There will be plenty of research. Sooner or later. I see no

signs

> > that this phenomenon is slowing down and quite a few that it is

> > accelerating.

> > -

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > FAIR USE NOTICE:

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

" kattemayo " wrote:

(Very educated people in EACH disease and category will fight to the

death that IT is the original culprit of all others.)

> Most major reactors agree that total avoidance is NO. 1 solution.

> ...Tho someone here screamed bloody murder on this topic, I think

the research on " repairing terrain " (in body) is extremely important.

I know there is some on MCS/CI, EMFs, ME/CFS, and Neurogenerative

diseases.. Is there any on Moldies? Please don't scream, I just want

to see it.

Extremely well put, although as far as I know, nobody has made any

claims that one substance is the original culprit of all others.

I was amazed to find out that after the doctors had given up on me,

that there was any way that was even possible to not only stay alive,

but to actually feel good and have an active life.

I was even more surprised the find that sufferers who were at the

same point I was rejected my information even more vehemently than the

doctors.

I never made any claims that mold is causative for everything, only

that I see it as an unobserved factor in myself and a staggering

number of people with identical complaints who are personally unaware

that they are being exposed to the same toxin and suffering a similar

reaction simultaneously.

Thanks to the incongruity of spore characteristics and toxin

dissemination, there are obfusticators that throw people off the track

to finding out that sensations that " come out of nowhere " can actually

be mycotoxins. Furthermore, the ACTH acting to suppress a response

under certain conditions means that a " mold hit " initiates a

protective response which makes the hit indiscernable until one " hits

the wall " or leaves the exposure and feels the effects later.

The bottom line is, people with mold exposure are having their

illness denied by doctors and denigrated as lesser by MCSers - the

very people who would seemingly be interested in examining this clue

for any possible benefit.

-