Re: It is Evidence-Based Medicine; Objection to Dr. Shoemaker being described as nontraditional or alternative

January 15, 2006

I am lucky to have a job where I interact with physicians and other healthcare

providers, including nurse practitioners and physician assistants. Almost all

of them knew what I was on disability for, and when I talk about the SCIENCE of

Dr. Shoemaker, Dr. Hudnell and others, they do not object to it. And his

methods have been approved by the Agency for Healthcare and Research Quality. I

have even loaned my copy of Mold Warriors to a couple of them to read the

Chapter on 'The Biotoxin Pathway'. After reading it, one Family Physician

thought that " the science is there " and is looking forward to the article in

JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) coming from Dr. Shoemaker.

I have posted this subject many times before, so forgive me if you are getting

sick of it. It is just that there are so many new people. The main point that

he can show is that the disease is not limited to allergy. Allergy is

important, and can lead to asthma, but if you are NOT allergic, it needs to be

treated through a different pathway. Doctors would agree to this logic since

something like " Vasomotor " rhinitis (NON-allergic inflammation of the nose) is

not due to allergy, a very different treatment is necessary from " Allergic "

Rhinitis. The same lifestyle change (avoidance) and medication will not work

for each. This is what is called a differential diagnosis. Now since a while

back there was a study that came out of the Mayo Clinic looking at " Toxic Mold

Syndrome " that determined 'Toxic Mold Syndrome could be explained by other

things....including allergy'. Now since '24% of patients were not allergic',

they admitted that it 'needed further investigation.'

If you haven't already done so, please have your place tested with an

inexpensive " Home Mold Test Kit " . You can get it at Lowe's for $10 and it takes

$30 to analyze it. Make sure you do the physical sample, and if there is

toxigenic fungi, please inform your doctor and ask him not to limit the effects

to allergy, even if you are allergic to it.

Good luck to all.

carondeen <kdeanstudios@...> wrote:

In my neck of the woods- very close to Shoemaker- people who do not

understand what he does- including allot in the medical field- just

call him a quack- that is pretty mainstream also- just makes me so

mad

>

> I just wanted to peep in on something I've seen a lot of here.

>

> It seems to me, from reading his book, that Dr. Shoemaker's

approach

> to mold-related illness falls squarely within the Western medical

> tradition of the scientific method, and Western modalities of

> treatment. The idea of using cholestyramine to bind mycotoxins

> circulating between the bloodstream, bilary system, liver and small

> intestine seems like a very straightforward, logical, 'Western'

> appraoch as well, and for me and many (perhaps thousands of people

at

> this point) clearly works wonders.. Also, in Mold Warriors, if

> anything, Dr. Shoemaker *lays out his mental processes and the

logic

> that goes into his evolving treatment for all to see*

>

> That takes a lot of guts and HONESTY.. And, it also is squarely

within

> the Western, mainstream medical system. Its clear to me that Dr.

> Shoemaker is an honest guy with nothing to hide, who is happy with

his

> life and is not trying to commercialize or monopolize a treatment

that

> could bring huge improvements in health to literally millions of

> people living with mold-related illness.

>

> WHY, THEN, ARE SO MANY PEOPLE TRYING TO IMPLY THAT HE IS AN

> 'UNCONVENTIONAL' DOCTOR?

>

> In my opinion, he really isn't. For Chrissakes, he has testified in

> front of the Congress and Senate.. what is more mainstream than

that?

>

> Jesus said 'By their fruit shall you know them'. This is GOOD

ADVICE...

>

> My feeling is that some people sow doubt and confusion in forums

like

> this because they are trying to indirectly, discredit him and

through

> a subtle kind of minsinformation, 'guilt by association' ? - delay

the

> (in my mind, inevitable) acceptance of the increasingly large body

of

> new knowledge that Dr. Shoemaker and his colleagues are trying to

GIVE

> to all of us and the world..

>

> Perhaps the reason is because then THEY feel as if THEY won;t be

able

> to make as much money off of something...???? Off of desperate

people

> PAYING for things that they shouldn't need to..

>

> If people wonder why I sometimes have gotten mad on here from time

to

> time.. this is what gets me mad.. seeing things like that.. Please

> accept my apology..

>

> And to put my cards on the table, I am not selling anything, being

> paid by anybody, or representing anything.. I am just trying to

help..

> and help - through learning - myself..

>

FAIR USE NOTICE:

January 15, 2006

Carondeen,Can you tell me , have you or anyone

you know tried the recommendation in Dr.

Shoemakers book.

> >

> > I just wanted to peep in on something I've seen a lot of here.

> >

> > It seems to me, from reading his book, that Dr. Shoemaker's

> approach

> > to mold-related illness falls squarely within the Western medical

> > tradition of the scientific method, and Western modalities of

> > treatment. The idea of using cholestyramine to bind mycotoxins

> > circulating between the bloodstream, bilary system, liver and

small

> > intestine seems like a very straightforward, logical, 'Western'

> > appraoch as well, and for me and many (perhaps thousands of

people

> at

> > this point) clearly works wonders.. Also, in Mold Warriors, if

> > anything, Dr. Shoemaker *lays out his mental processes and the

> logic

> > that goes into his evolving treatment for all to see*

> >

> > That takes a lot of guts and HONESTY.. And, it also is squarely

> within

> > the Western, mainstream medical system. Its clear to me that Dr.

> > Shoemaker is an honest guy with nothing to hide, who is happy

with

> his

> > life and is not trying to commercialize or monopolize a

treatment

> that

> > could bring huge improvements in health to literally millions of

> > people living with mold-related illness.

> >

> > WHY, THEN, ARE SO MANY PEOPLE TRYING TO IMPLY THAT HE IS AN

> > 'UNCONVENTIONAL' DOCTOR?

> >

> > In my opinion, he really isn't. For Chrissakes, he has testified

in

> > front of the Congress and Senate.. what is more mainstream than

> that?

> >

> > Jesus said 'By their fruit shall you know them'. This is GOOD

> ADVICE...

> >

> > My feeling is that some people sow doubt and confusion in forums

> like

> > this because they are trying to indirectly, discredit him and

> through

> > a subtle kind of minsinformation, 'guilt by association' ? -

delay

> the

> > (in my mind, inevitable) acceptance of the increasingly large

body

> of

> > new knowledge that Dr. Shoemaker and his colleagues are trying

to

> GIVE

> > to all of us and the world..

> >

> > Perhaps the reason is because then THEY feel as if THEY won;t be

> able

> > to make as much money off of something...???? Off of desperate

> people

> > PAYING for things that they shouldn't need to..

> >

> > If people wonder why I sometimes have gotten mad on here from

time

> to

> > time.. this is what gets me mad.. seeing things like that..

Please

> > accept my apology..

> >

> > And to put my cards on the table, I am not selling anything,

being

> > paid by anybody, or representing anything.. I am just trying to

> help..

> > and help - through learning - myself..

> >

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

January 15, 2006

I just wanted to comment on those 'home mold test kits'. Although

putting out an agar plate and letting it collect spores wandering

through the air seems like it is a good way to test for mold in your

home, I think that it is one of the worst methods for many of us. IMO,

it is far better to try to find a piece of the mold that is making you

sick that you can see, and doing a 'tape wipe' sample, and then

sending it (in a sterile ziplok bag) to someone like P & K Microbiology

to analyze.. (with a chain-of-custody form if its going to be used in

a legal case)

Otherwise, you may get all sorts of molds growing in non-specific

agar.. but they could easily be THE WRONG ONES... so the results of

the test could end up not being meaningful to you at all..

Air sampling > microscopic analysis has drawbacks too, but its perhaps

better than the first method..

The best is when you can actually find the mold, and then cut out a

chunk of it right where it is, bag it and send that in.. ( " bulk

sample " ) Or Tape lift.. as described above..

HTH..

January 15, 2006

LiveSimply < wrote: regarding mold plates.

> I think that it is one of the worst methods for many of us. <

AB-solutely! Very misleading!

Some may recall my story of testing my reactivity by wrapping a

sample in a HEPA filter and placing it under six layers of blankets

and trying to sleep on it to see if the " effect " could be filtered out.

The results caused me to propose to Dr Marinkovich that the toxins

sail right on through a filter and that spore inhalation is not

neccessary to create a response.

Acting somewhat surprised at what I had done, he told me that he had

just heard about a housing project in Sweden where the inhabitants

were all sick, but airborne testing revealed nothing. When the walls

were opened up, the colony was found - so tightly sealed that spores

were not esccaping.

But it made everyone ill anyway.

He said " But this information has not been peer reviewed " as if to

mean that it might be unreliable. Well, since it was consistent with

the results I had from my own personal reaction to a sealed sample, I

choose to act in accordance with the likliehood that the report was

completely accurate.

Not much use concentrating on counting spores if the toxins operate

independently.

-

January 15, 2006

The home test kits list 3 ways to use them, not just air sampling.

Option 2 is to use a q-tip to take samples of visible mold and send

in both the q-tip and the petri dish. Option 3 is to tape the petri

dish to a vent and turn the fan (I think) on high for a set period

of time.

For $40, I think it can provide some useful info, especially since

there are multiple ways to use the test and it provides a starting

point.

>

> I just wanted to comment on those 'home mold test kits'. Although

> putting out an agar plate and letting it collect spores wandering

> through the air seems like it is a good way to test for mold in

your

> home, I think that it is one of the worst methods for many of us.

IMO,

> it is far better to try to find a piece of the mold that is making

you

> sick that you can see, and doing a 'tape wipe' sample, and then

> sending it (in a sterile ziplok bag) to someone like P & K

Microbiology

> to analyze.. (with a chain-of-custody form if its going to be used

in

> a legal case)

>

> Otherwise, you may get all sorts of molds growing in non-specific

> agar.. but they could easily be THE WRONG ONES... so the results of

> the test could end up not being meaningful to you at all..

>

> Air sampling > microscopic analysis has drawbacks too, but its

perhaps

> better than the first method..

>

> The best is when you can actually find the mold, and then cut out a

> chunk of it right where it is, bag it and send that in.. ( " bulk

> sample " ) Or Tape lift.. as described above..

>

> HTH..

>

January 16, 2006

I am on Cholestramine, and the shoemaker diet, both have helped me

immensly- many people sicker than me on this site are being treated

by Shoemaker

> > >

> > > I just wanted to peep in on something I've seen a lot of here.

> > >

> > > It seems to me, from reading his book, that Dr. Shoemaker's

> > approach

> > > to mold-related illness falls squarely within the Western

medical

> > > tradition of the scientific method, and Western modalities of

> > > treatment. The idea of using cholestyramine to bind mycotoxins

> > > circulating between the bloodstream, bilary system, liver and

> small

> > > intestine seems like a very straightforward, logical, 'Western'

> > > appraoch as well, and for me and many (perhaps thousands of

> people

> > at

> > > this point) clearly works wonders.. Also, in Mold Warriors, if

> > > anything, Dr. Shoemaker *lays out his mental processes and the

> > logic

> > > that goes into his evolving treatment for all to see*

> > >

> > > That takes a lot of guts and HONESTY.. And, it also is

squarely

> > within

> > > the Western, mainstream medical system. Its clear to me that

Dr.

> > > Shoemaker is an honest guy with nothing to hide, who is happy

> with

> > his

> > > life and is not trying to commercialize or monopolize a

> treatment

> > that

> > > could bring huge improvements in health to literally millions

of

> > > people living with mold-related illness.

> > >

> > > WHY, THEN, ARE SO MANY PEOPLE TRYING TO IMPLY THAT HE IS AN

> > > 'UNCONVENTIONAL' DOCTOR?

> > >

> > > In my opinion, he really isn't. For Chrissakes, he has

testified

> in

> > > front of the Congress and Senate.. what is more mainstream

than

> > that?

> > >

> > > Jesus said 'By their fruit shall you know them'. This is GOOD

> > ADVICE...

> > >

> > > My feeling is that some people sow doubt and confusion in

forums

> > like

> > > this because they are trying to indirectly, discredit him and

> > through

> > > a subtle kind of minsinformation, 'guilt by association' ? -

> delay

> > the

> > > (in my mind, inevitable) acceptance of the increasingly large

> body

> > of

> > > new knowledge that Dr. Shoemaker and his colleagues are trying

> to

> > GIVE

> > > to all of us and the world..

> > >

> > > Perhaps the reason is because then THEY feel as if THEY won;t

be

> > able

> > > to make as much money off of something...???? Off of desperate

> > people

> > > PAYING for things that they shouldn't need to..

> > >

> > > If people wonder why I sometimes have gotten mad on here from

> time

> > to

> > > time.. this is what gets me mad.. seeing things like that..

> Please

> > > accept my apology..

> > >

> > > And to put my cards on the table, I am not selling anything,

> being

> > > paid by anybody, or representing anything.. I am just trying

to

> > help..

> > > and help - through learning - myself..

> > >

> >

> > FAIR USE NOTICE:

> >

January 16, 2006

I read somewhere in the last year that mycotoxins have a unique

molecular structure, like water, that allow it to go through things-

this has also been my personel experience--

-

In , " erikmoldwarrior "

<erikmoldwarrior@e...> wrote:

>

> LiveSimply < wrote: regarding mold plates.

> > I think that it is one of the worst methods for many of us. <

>

> AB-solutely! Very misleading!

> Some may recall my story of testing my reactivity by wrapping a

> sample in a HEPA filter and placing it under six layers of

blankets

> and trying to sleep on it to see if the " effect " could be filtered

out.

> The results caused me to propose to Dr Marinkovich that the

toxins

> sail right on through a filter and that spore inhalation is not

> neccessary to create a response.

> Acting somewhat surprised at what I had done, he told me that he

had

> just heard about a housing project in Sweden where the inhabitants

> were all sick, but airborne testing revealed nothing. When the

walls

> were opened up, the colony was found - so tightly sealed that

spores

> were not esccaping.

> But it made everyone ill anyway.

> He said " But this information has not been peer reviewed " as if to

> mean that it might be unreliable. Well, since it was consistent

with

> the results I had from my own personal reaction to a sealed

sample, I

> choose to act in accordance with the likliehood that the report

was

> completely accurate.

> Not much use concentrating on counting spores if the toxins

operate

> independently.

> -

>

January 16, 2006

I do think that they can go through things that filter out spores..

also personal experience -the room in my house that is the most toxic

seemed to have less spores when air tested than some other spaces.

(although those spores were a much higher ratio of asp/pen than

outside air)

I could also see this happening when the mold colonies are old and the

mycotoxins have had a chance to permeate everywhere and everything...

At that point, effective remediation would mean tearing out a lot of

wallboard and floor/ceiling and rebuilding it.. i.e. expensive..

January 17, 2006

I tried using one of those (2, actually) after doing some remediating in my

basement. I had

a well room that had been turned into a pantry, everything in it was musty.

After we fixed

that and fixed everything we could find, I ran one of those tests. it showed

only one colony

(by air sampling). After awhile I realized by my own reactions that there was

more mold,

no matter what the test read. So, I put my slow brain to work on the

possibilities, and

realized that the shower tile was glued onto sheetrock, and a light went on over

my head. I

had the handyman pop off a tile, and PRESTO! There it was, in all it's black

glory.

So, from my own experience, try to figure out where it could be, cut out a

sample of the

drywall, and send that in, with all documentation intact if you are doing

something legal.

My testing was a false negative, and lulled me into a false sense of security

that cost my

health.

>

> I just wanted to comment on those 'home mold test kits'. Although

> putting out an agar plate and letting it collect spores wandering

> through the air seems like it is a good way to test for mold in your

> home, I think that it is one of the worst methods for many of us. IMO,

> it is far better to try to find a piece of the mold that is making you

> sick that you can see, and doing a 'tape wipe' sample, and then

> sending it (in a sterile ziplok bag) to someone like P & K Microbiology

> to analyze.. (with a chain-of-custody form if its going to be used in

> a legal case)

>

> Otherwise, you may get all sorts of molds growing in non-specific

> agar.. but they could easily be THE WRONG ONES... so the results of

> the test could end up not being meaningful to you at all..

>

> Air sampling > microscopic analysis has drawbacks too, but its perhaps

> better than the first method..

>

> The best is when you can actually find the mold, and then cut out a

> chunk of it right where it is, bag it and send that in.. ( " bulk

> sample " ) Or Tape lift.. as described above..

>

> HTH..

>

January 17, 2006

Wow, that is great that you did that.What symtoms were you having? Loni

kl_clayton <kl_clayton@...> wrote: I tried using one of those (2,

actually) after doing some remediating in my basement. I had