Re: Re: CSM & Chitosan to bind micotoxins

[Guest guest]

I would be very careful consuming anything that is not listed as being

for human consumption.. You never know what is in there..

Seriously! Those tests they do on food grade nutrients are done for

reasons! And the world of shellfish and invertabrates, AS WE SHOULD

KNOW, is filled with toxic stuff..

If I couldn't take CSM, perhaps because I couldnt find or afford a

doctor, I would take activated charcoal in the same way.. on empty

stomach and then, eat fats 1/2 hour or so later...

Maybe we could find whatever agency would approve a drug for OTC use

and start writing them asking if they could approve CSM for a

pharmacist to dispense.. after a consultation with a patient.. That

seems like a good question to put to the doctors on the list.. Is

there any reason that this would not be a good thing if it was done?

***SO MANY MOLD PATIENTS HAVE LOST THEIR JOBS AND ALONG WITH THAT,

THEIR INSURANCE...***

[Guest guest]

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of LiveSimply

>>>If I couldn't take CSM, perhaps because I couldnt find or afford a

doctor, I would take activated charcoal in the same way.. on empty

stomach and then, eat fats 1/2 hour or so later...>>>

The transient time of activated charcoal from mouth through small intestine

is longer than 1/2 hour. Since you speak of activated charcoal I'm sure you

have read the studies that more than a few capsules are used in the Vet

protocols. Taking fats 1/2 hour after the charcoal would not give you the

expected results.

>>Maybe we could find whatever agency would approve a drug for OTC use

and start writing them asking if they could approve CSM for a

pharmacist to dispense.. after a consultation with a patient.. That

seems like a good question to put to the doctors on the list.. Is

there any reason that this would not be a good thing if it was done?>>>

I would be the first to start a massive and aggressive email campaign to

stop dispensation of CSM without a script from a qualified M.D.

Rosie

[Guest guest]

There you go.. Okay, Rosie, it sounds like you know a lot more than I

do about this. Good.

(no, I don't remember reading that study, just hearing lots of

anecdotal information here and reading mentions in study abstracts on

PubMed, which don't go into detail.. So....)

*Please fill in the blanks*

You know, middle class people (those who still have jobs) OFTEN don't

realize that LOTS of people who need help fighting mold disease don't

have insurance and don't have access to doctors the way we all

should.. let alone ones who know about mold illness...

With that in mind, and that is a serious problem.. I thought that my

idea perhaps be worth consideration for regulators- balancing the pros

and cons..

... naiive fool that I am, hoping/wishing that they actually cared

about people like us..

So, I'm gathering that unregulated 'abuse' of CSM can hurt people?

> I would be the first to start a massive and aggressive email campaign to

> stop dispensation of CSM without a script from a qualified M.D.

>

> Rosie

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Quack:

I wish I knew your real name to address you properly.

Rather than considering on what is not available to use today or this year

such as how Rx drugs could be made available without a scrip which would

require so much manpower, time, energy, financing (would be in the long-term

future if at all possible) why not address and focus on what we already have

OTC to help those who do not have access to our Mold Warrior M.D.'s and

other M.D.'s educated and trained in mold illnesses.

Let's focus on today, what's available today for those in a crisis

situation which is reality and of desperate need for so many. Even middle

class people as you stated do not have the funds to travel and consult with

a specialist always. Many are locked into HMO's; but let's don't even

consider demographics, race or anything other than there are many people

today ill from chronic mold toxins; many don't know the cause, many don't

know what to do. Let's focus on education the public, the symptoms arising

from chronic mold toxins, and how to help in an acute, emergency crisis such

as if a house would be burning.

In my humble opinion, those without funds or ability to see a qualified M.D.

today or in the short-term future I'd suggest as a temporary " help " :

1. Pharmaceutical-grade Activated charcoal in powder form rather than

capsules, mixed in water

2. Chitosan in either capsules or less expensive in powder (a little lemon

juice or ascorbic acid to make it more active)

3. Certified pure Zeolite powder used for animal feed additive

4. OTC anti-inflammatory to reduce the inflammation from chronic mold

toxins (Advil, etc)

5. High quality fish oils (rich in DHA) if they can afford them or a can of

sardines for 50 cents

6. Home made nasal spray using xylitol and GSE; if funds are available add

some yerba mansa and goldenseal, a tad glycerine and or capricin

7. Capricin or caprylic acid for candida in intestines available in health

food stores or some homeopathic remedies labeled for " candida (under $10)

8. Fresh raw garlic mashed and swallowed

9. Chromemate to help with sugar fluctuations

10. Dietary changes that don't cost any money

11. Environmental modifications

12. Reduction of other potential chemicals in their " space " to prevent if

possible further deterioration of the body

Then we give people directions on how to use them; to drink items 1-3 with

plenty of water, take 2-3 hours apart from food and other supplements (items

4, 5, 8 and 10).

Encourage them to have at least a safe room such as bedroom if they cannot

move immediately or make a safe sleeping area even outside if necessary;

wash all bed pillows, cover them, wash bed linens in non-toxic detergent

such as ALL Free and Clear, minimize chemicals, fragrances, VOC's in home,

clothing, toiletries to reduce possibility of becoming more reactive to

other chemicals (doesn't cost much money), read labels, eliminate sugar,

junk food, and so forth. We could address those details on an individual

basis as needed and as possible by those affected.

Just my petals of thoughts.

Rosie

Re: [] Re: CSM & Chitosan to bind micotoxins

There you go.. Okay, Rosie, it sounds like you know a lot more than I

do about this. Good.

(no, I don't remember reading that study, just hearing lots of

anecdotal information here and reading mentions in study abstracts on

PubMed, which don't go into detail.. So....)

*Please fill in the blanks*

You know, middle class people (those who still have jobs) OFTEN don't

realize that LOTS of people who need help fighting mold disease don't

have insurance and don't have access to doctors the way we all

should.. let alone ones who know about mold illness...

With that in mind, and that is a serious problem.. I thought that my

idea perhaps be worth consideration for regulators- balancing the pros

and cons..

... naiive fool that I am, hoping/wishing that they actually cared

about people like us..

So, I'm gathering that unregulated 'abuse' of CSM can hurt people?

[Guest guest]

PS: I forgot to add zinc to my " emergency " list. My new " petals of

thoughts " list is below along with the zinc. Of course, detail directions

how to use these items is imperative.

Anyone else care to add to this list simple, inexpensive and easy to obtain

OTC therapies for acute, initial chronic toxic mold exposure for those who

do not have immediate access to Dr. Shoemaker, Dr. Schaller and others

trained to assist them?

1. Pharmaceutical-grade Activated charcoal in powder form rather than

capsules, mixed in water

2. Chitosan in either capsules or less expensive in powder (a little lemon

juice or ascorbic acid to make it more active)

3. Certified pure Zeolite powder used for animal feed additive

4. OTC anti-inflammatory to reduce the inflammation from chronic mold

toxins (Advil, etc)

5. High quality fish oils (rich in DHA) if they can afford them or a can of

sardines for 50 cents

6. Home made nasal spray using xylitol and GSE; if funds are available add

some yerba mansa and goldenseal, a tad glycerine and or capricin

7. Capricin or caprylic acid for candida in intestines available in health

food stores or some homeopathic remedies labeled for " candida (under $10)

8. Fresh raw garlic mashed and swallowed

9. Chromemate to help with sugar fluctuations

10. Zinc, 25-50 mg/day

11. Dietary changes that don't cost any money

12. Environmental modifications

13. Reduction of other potential chemicals in their " space " to prevent if

possible further deterioration of the body.

Rosie

Re: [] Re: CSM & Chitosan to bind micotoxins

There you go.. Okay, Rosie, it sounds like you know a lot more than I

do about this. Good.

(no, I don't remember reading that study, just hearing lots of

anecdotal information here and reading mentions in study abstracts on

PubMed, which don't go into detail.. So....)

*Please fill in the blanks*

You know, middle class people (those who still have jobs) OFTEN don't

realize that LOTS of people who need help fighting mold disease don't

have insurance and don't have access to doctors the way we all

should.. let alone ones who know about mold illness...

With that in mind, and that is a serious problem.. I thought that my

idea perhaps be worth consideration for regulators- balancing the pros

and cons..

... naiive fool that I am, hoping/wishing that they actually cared

about people like us..

So, I'm gathering that unregulated 'abuse' of CSM can hurt people?

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

CSM only works that way if you are living in a mold-free space. If you

are living like me - in a place with ongoing mold exposure, your body

still has to fight the mold toxins...

Then, the best you can hope for is to hopefully prevent the 'acute'

symptoms somewhat..

until you can get into a safe environment..

[Guest guest]

Thanks Fletch, that's alot of great info & a huge relief that other things will

help! Loni

fletch_82000 <fletch_8@...> wrote: Hi ,

>>>> Dr Shoemaker clearly described that charcoal and chitosan lack

the ion binding charge of CSM and are ineffective at removing

mycotoxins. I see no further point in discussing their use.<<<<

Charcoal is used and there are studies on it to remove micotoxins in

farm animals who are often exposed to them in feed, but yes its mode

of action is different than CSM. Dr.Shaller's web page has a study

comparing charcoal's abilities on a specific micotoxin to CSM.

http://www.personalconsult.com/articles/moldandbiotoxins/comparingmol

dtoxinbinders.html

Dr.Schaller's book says the Army uses charcoal on micotoxins:

http://www.mold-free.org/whentrad25.pdf

Chitosan, like CSM's mode of action, has a positive charge:

http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/chi_006

7.shtml

\\\\\\\MECHANISM OF ACTION

Chitosan is, at the pH of the gastrointestinal tract, a positively

charged polymer and can bind to negatively charged substances. It is

believed that chitosan, similar to cholestryamine, has bile acid

sequestration activity and that this may be the mechanism for its

hypocholesterolemic effect. There is some evidence that chitosan

binds to bile acids and some evidence that the polymer affects the

metabolism of intestinal bile acids. However, in contrast to

cholestyramine, chitosan does not have consistent

hypocholesterolemic activity. There is also evidence that chitosan

binds to fats in the intestine, blocking their absorption.

The mechanism of action of chitosan's possible beneficial effects on

renal disease in some is unknown. Chitosan can absorb urea and

ammonia, but it is unclear whether this mechanism has anything to do

with its putative renal effects.////////

This is a study of CSM and Chitosan together:

http://www.wilkeresources.com/WILKEresources/ChitosanReferenceSummari

es.htm#6

Fletch

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

Fletch, I guess other things are worth a try. I'm on the search like you.

Thanks, Loni

fletch_82000 <fletch_8@...> wrote:

Hi Loni,

I don't know if those other things help, I really don't know if CSM

does for that matter. I am just posting information I find on the

net and one need to check it out for his or herself.

I would like to see Dr.Shoemaker, but am not ready to risk such an

investment unless I was sure we fit the protocol and I can not get

that done because no one locally will order the tests. Why are

tests needed to be prescribed if one wanted to spend the money

themselves? Drugs I can understand, not mere tests.

Animals are not humans, but I assume Dr.Schaller's study was on

humans with the charcoal.

I was not aware that the book mold warriors said anything about

other binders such as charcoal not working. There was a binder that

starts with " W " that did not work as good I remember being mentioned.

Dr.Schallers book When Traditional Medicine Fails, mentions charcoal

and chitosan, but does not endorse it other than the mention.

I hope CSM is not $2300 that mentions, maybe that included

everything(doctor,testing,etc)

Fletch

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

Don't they give the charcoal to people in the hospoital that have been poisoned?

I need find something that will work because I havn't been able to get the CSM.

Loni

erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

Loni Rosser wrote:

>

> Fletch, I guess other things are worth a try. I'm on the search

like you. Thanks, Loni

>

You know, we're all searching like crazy but there comes a time to

quit beating your head against the same wall that didn't " give " for

all those who have tried it before.

The German Dept of Defense that conducted biowarfare testing of

trichothecene on animals tried Dexamethasone and activated charcoal.

Their results indicated that it really didn't do much, if anything.

This was decades ago and yet because it " seems like it should work "

people are still throwing themselves at it, even though efficacy was

shown to be negligible.

Can't blame people for acting out of desperation, but you CAN point

out that it's been done before under controlled conditions and the

results weren't very encouraging.

-

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

I think that Dr. Shoemaker sometimes uses something else.. 'Welchol'

(don't know anything more than this..)

BTW, 'trichothecene' is a category of toxinS, that contains several

sub-categories, each with perhaps many individual toxin members..

which could be chemically/structurally similar, but might have

different properties in significant ways..

The best known trichothecene, as I understand it, is 'T2 toxin' - one

of many mycotoxins that can occur in toxinogenic molds..

On 1/22/06, Loni Rosser <loni326@...> wrote:

> Don't they give the charcoal to people in the hospital that have been

poisoned? I need find something that will work because I havn't been able to get

the CSM.

> Loni

>

> erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

> Loni Rosser wrote:

> >

> > Fletch, I guess other things are worth a try. I'm on the search

> like you. Thanks, Loni

> >

>

> You know, we're all searching like crazy but there comes a time to

> quit beating your head against the same wall that didn't " give " for

> all those who have tried it before.

> The German Dept of Defense that conducted biowarfare testing of

> trichothecene on animals tried Dexamethasone and activated charcoal.

> Their results indicated that it really didn't do much, if anything.

> This was decades ago and yet because it " seems like it should work "

> people are still throwing themselves at it, even though efficacy was

> shown to be negligible.

> Can't blame people for acting out of desperation, but you CAN point

> out that it's been done before under controlled conditions and the

> results weren't very encouraging.

> -

>

[Guest guest]

Welchol as a detox? Loni

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote: I think that Dr. Shoemaker

sometimes uses something else.. 'Welchol'

(don't know anything more than this..)

BTW, 'trichothecene' is a category of toxinS, that contains several

sub-categories, each with perhaps many individual toxin members..

which could be chemically/structurally similar, but might have

different properties in significant ways..

The best known trichothecene, as I understand it, is 'T2 toxin' - one

of many mycotoxins that can occur in toxinogenic molds..

On 1/22/06, Loni Rosser <loni326@...> wrote:

> Don't they give the charcoal to people in the hospital that have been

poisoned? I need find something that will work because I havn't been able to get

the CSM.

> Loni

>

> erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

> Loni Rosser wrote:

> >

> > Fletch, I guess other things are worth a try. I'm on the search

> like you. Thanks, Loni

> >

>

> You know, we're all searching like crazy but there comes a time to

> quit beating your head against the same wall that didn't " give " for

> all those who have tried it before.

> The German Dept of Defense that conducted biowarfare testing of

> trichothecene on animals tried Dexamethasone and activated charcoal.

> Their results indicated that it really didn't do much, if anything.

> This was decades ago and yet because it " seems like it should work "

> people are still throwing themselves at it, even though efficacy was

> shown to be negligible.

> Can't blame people for acting out of desperation, but you CAN point

> out that it's been done before under controlled conditions and the

> results weren't very encouraging.

> -

>

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

YES, LONI--WITH CERTAIN TYPES OF POISONING ONLY, THOUGH. THEY USE IT ALOT

IN THE ER.

VICTORIA

Re: [] Re: CSM & Chitosan to bind micotoxins

> Don't they give the charcoal to people in the hospoital that have been

> poisoned? I need find something that will work because I havn't been able

> to get the CSM.

> Loni

>

> erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

> Loni Rosser wrote:

>>

>> Fletch, I guess other things are worth a try. I'm on the search

> like you. Thanks, Loni

>>

>

> You know, we're all searching like crazy but there comes a time to

> quit beating your head against the same wall that didn't " give " for

> all those who have tried it before.

> The German Dept of Defense that conducted biowarfare testing of

> trichothecene on animals tried Dexamethasone and activated charcoal.

> Their results indicated that it really didn't do much, if anything.

> This was decades ago and yet because it " seems like it should work "

> people are still throwing themselves at it, even though efficacy was

> shown to be negligible.

> Can't blame people for acting out of desperation, but you CAN point

> out that it's been done before under controlled conditions and the

> results weren't very encouraging.

> -

>

>

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Does anyone know if the Charcoal takes out Trichothocene toxins? Loni

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

I think that Dr. Shoemaker sometimes uses something else.. 'Welchol'

(don't know anything more than this..)

BTW, 'trichothecene' is a category of toxinS, that contains several

sub-categories, each with perhaps many individual toxin members..

which could be chemically/structurally similar, but might have

different properties in significant ways..

The best known trichothecene, as I understand it, is 'T2 toxin' - one

of many mycotoxins that can occur in toxinogenic molds..

On 1/22/06, Loni Rosser <loni326@...> wrote:

> Don't they give the charcoal to people in the hospital that have been

poisoned? I need find something that will work because I havn't been able to get

the CSM.

> Loni

>

> erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

> Loni Rosser wrote:

> >

> > Fletch, I guess other things are worth a try. I'm on the search

> like you. Thanks, Loni

> >

>

> You know, we're all searching like crazy but there comes a time to

> quit beating your head against the same wall that didn't " give " for

> all those who have tried it before.

> The German Dept of Defense that conducted biowarfare testing of

> trichothecene on animals tried Dexamethasone and activated charcoal.

> Their results indicated that it really didn't do much, if anything.

> This was decades ago and yet because it " seems like it should work "

> people are still throwing themselves at it, even though efficacy was

> shown to be negligible.

> Can't blame people for acting out of desperation, but you CAN point

> out that it's been done before under controlled conditions and the

> results weren't very encouraging.

> -

>

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

According to several articles that I have read (including an article from the

Department of Homeland Security) activated charcoal does absorb T-2 toxin with

acute exposure. I don't know about other trichthecenes. But it is specifically

mentioned as the main treatment for acute exposure during a biological warfare

attack with T-2 toxin. Fusarium is the main mold that produces this toxin. I

don't think Stachybotrys produces this particular trichothecene. It is in a

different category. But the question is: How long do trichothecenes stay in

the body. According to the article I just read by Dr. Croft, they are

eliminated fairly quickly, but leave behind their damage. T-2 is micro

something and the ones produced by Stachybotrys are macro something. I don't

remember the last part right now.. But I did read that there can be hepatic

recirculation of some of T-2 toxins metabolites which are also toxic.

Loni Rosser <loni326@...> wrote: Does anyone know if the Charcoal takes

out Trichothocene toxins? Loni

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

I think that Dr. Shoemaker sometimes uses something else.. 'Welchol'

(don't know anything more than this..)

BTW, 'trichothecene' is a category of toxinS, that contains several

sub-categories, each with perhaps many individual toxin members..

which could be chemically/structurally similar, but might have

different properties in significant ways..

The best known trichothecene, as I understand it, is 'T2 toxin' - one

of many mycotoxins that can occur in toxinogenic molds..

On 1/22/06, Loni Rosser <loni326@...> wrote:

> Don't they give the charcoal to people in the hospital that have been

poisoned? I need find something that will work because I havn't been able to get

the CSM.

> Loni

>

> erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

> Loni Rosser wrote:

> >

> > Fletch, I guess other things are worth a try. I'm on the search

> like you. Thanks, Loni

> >

>

> You know, we're all searching like crazy but there comes a time to

> quit beating your head against the same wall that didn't " give " for

> all those who have tried it before.

> The German Dept of Defense that conducted biowarfare testing of

> trichothecene on animals tried Dexamethasone and activated charcoal.

> Their results indicated that it really didn't do much, if anything.

> This was decades ago and yet because it " seems like it should work "

> people are still throwing themselves at it, even though efficacy was

> shown to be negligible.

> Can't blame people for acting out of desperation, but you CAN point

> out that it's been done before under controlled conditions and the

> results weren't very encouraging.

> -

>

FAIR USE NOTICE:

[Guest guest]

Thanks Kathy, Maybe it will take some of it out. Loni

Kathy <kathywnb@...> wrote: According to several articles that I

have read (including an article from the Department of Homeland Security)

activated charcoal does absorb T-2 toxin with acute exposure. I don't know

about other trichthecenes. But it is specifically mentioned as the main

treatment for acute exposure during a biological warfare attack with T-2 toxin.

Fusarium is the main mold that produces this toxin. I don't think Stachybotrys

produces this particular trichothecene. It is in a different category. But the

question is: How long do trichothecenes stay in the body. According to the

article I just read by Dr. Croft, they are eliminated fairly quickly, but leave

behind their damage. T-2 is micro something and the ones produced by

Stachybotrys are macro something. I don't remember the last part right now..

But I did read that there can be hepatic recirculation of some of T-2 toxins

metabolites which are also toxic.

Loni Rosser <loni326@...> wrote: Does anyone know if the Charcoal takes

out Trichothocene toxins? Loni

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

I think that Dr. Shoemaker sometimes uses something else.. 'Welchol'

(don't know anything more than this..)

BTW, 'trichothecene' is a category of toxinS, that contains several

sub-categories, each with perhaps many individual toxin members..

which could be chemically/structurally similar, but might have

different properties in significant ways..

The best known trichothecene, as I understand it, is 'T2 toxin' - one

of many mycotoxins that can occur in toxinogenic molds..

On 1/22/06, Loni Rosser <loni326@...> wrote:

> Don't they give the charcoal to people in the hospital that have been

poisoned? I need find something that will work because I havn't been able to get

the CSM.

> Loni

>

> erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

> Loni Rosser wrote:

> >

> > Fletch, I guess other things are worth a try. I'm on the search

> like you. Thanks, Loni

> >

>

> You know, we're all searching like crazy but there comes a time to

> quit beating your head against the same wall that didn't " give " for

> all those who have tried it before.

> The German Dept of Defense that conducted biowarfare testing of

> trichothecene on animals tried Dexamethasone and activated charcoal.

> Their results indicated that it really didn't do much, if anything.

> This was decades ago and yet because it " seems like it should work "

> people are still throwing themselves at it, even though efficacy was

> shown to be negligible.

> Can't blame people for acting out of desperation, but you CAN point

> out that it's been done before under controlled conditions and the

> results weren't very encouraging.

> -

>

FAIR USE NOTICE: