Re: Objection to Dr. Shoemaker being described as nontraditional or alternative

[Guest guest]

LiveSimply < wrote:

> WHY, THEN, ARE SO MANY PEOPLE TRYING TO IMPLY THAT HE IS AN

> 'UNCONVENTIONAL' DOCTOR?

When I figured out the mycotoxin connection to CFS and demonstrated

it to good advantage, I really thought that everyone would be

interested.

In fact, at first I was scared to talk about it for fear that I

might be overwhelmed by thousands of desperate people all trying to

figure out what I was talking about.

Quite the opposite.

CFSers and people reeking of mold used every argument and tactic to

undermine and deny my experience that the doctors applied to mold

sufferers and CFSers to deny their illness.

As described in Mold Warriors, people said that I was arrogant

simply for daring to argue with doctors. Whether I was right or

wrong had nothing to do with it - just daring to challenge the

mainstream views of doctors made me arrogant in their view.

And this is exactly what is being done to Dr Shoemaker.

Same as the medical system reacted to Barry Marshall and Robin

Warren by accusing them of brazen audacity for daring to think that

they could discover something that the mighty edifice of medicine

had overlooked.

I guess they got the last laugh when they won the Nobel Prize.

So who's REALLY being arrogant here?

-

[Guest guest]

*Exactly*

Its completely the tradition of any real discovery to be resisted..

So the way that this is playing out is really 'traditional' in that sense..

But WHY??? is it taking so long for people to get the help they need?

On 1/14/06, erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

> LiveSimply < wrote:

>

> > WHY, THEN, ARE SO MANY PEOPLE TRYING TO IMPLY THAT HE IS AN

> > 'UNCONVENTIONAL' DOCTOR?

>

>

> When I figured out the mycotoxin connection to CFS and demonstrated

> it to good advantage, I really thought that everyone would be

> interested.

> In fact, at first I was scared to talk about it for fear that I

> might be overwhelmed by thousands of desperate people all trying to

> figure out what I was talking about.

> Quite the opposite.

> CFSers and people reeking of mold used every argument and tactic to

> undermine and deny my experience that the doctors applied to mold

> sufferers and CFSers to deny their illness.

>

> As described in Mold Warriors, people said that I was arrogant

> simply for daring to argue with doctors. Whether I was right or

> wrong had nothing to do with it - just daring to challenge the

> mainstream views of doctors made me arrogant in their view.

>

> And this is exactly what is being done to Dr Shoemaker.

> Same as the medical system reacted to Barry Marshall and Robin

> Warren by accusing them of brazen audacity for daring to think that

> they could discover something that the mighty edifice of medicine

> had overlooked.

> I guess they got the last laugh when they won the Nobel Prize.

> So who's REALLY being arrogant here?

> -

>

[Guest guest]

Seen and appreciated. Thanks for explaining what you meant earlier by " sowing

doubt " . I've never had the feeling that anyone gets paid to sow doubt about

Shoemaker or his methods except for the defense experts who get paid for trying

to shoot him down and various government lackeys who would like to ignore the

whole problem of indoor mold altogether.

You're right. He's a straight-up practitioner of Western-style medicine. A lot

of people here favor other schools of thought and practice. Sometimes I disagree

with them vehemently myself. But in the end, their viewpoints have to be

respected, too, if for no other reason than the fact that everyone's entitled to

an opinion. And we have to remember that not everyone here was poisoned by

mycotoxins or has had that experience as any part of their own reality. Some

people here are MCS due to unknown causes, some have fungal infections, some

actually are allergic to the stuff, and some have some lovely combination of

those to deal with. They don't like to get stepped on for the way they choose to

get treated any more than the rest of us.

I could see why it might look odd to you, though. After a while, you hear

people tell their own story and so you know a little bit about where they're

coming from. And yeah, it can be a bit grating to get a lecture from somebody

with a completely different illness slamming in theory what they don't have to

deal with in reality themselves. It happens from time to time. Without a context

to put it in, I could see why you might think somebody might just really be into

sniping for whatever reasons. Delete keys come in pretty handy on occasion, and

if you get the messages sent to your email account or an email client with

similar features, you can also outright block any senders that just create too

much aggro for you. I can only suggest to you that you ask questions and get

people to introduce themselves to you, since nobody's going to post their bio

every week just in case it wasn't seen before. That's just another one of the

problems with having an unthreaded board with very

little storage space for permanent files.

Another possibility is that you're seeing the news items KC posts and perhaps

assuming that their appearance here means somebody approves of whatever was said

in the story. Not so! The news items just give us a convenient way of scanning

what is currently appearing in the press. He spends his time, so we don't have

to spend ours (cuz he's a swell guy like that). Some of the most oft-quoted

" experts " in those articles really ARE people who make their living opposing

Shoemaker and the rest of us. You should almost be able to hear most of us

rolling our eyes from there at some of these articles. It happens so often, it

usually doesn't even draw comment.

So, if that's what what was annoying you, then yep. You're right on the money.

They ARE paid shills and insurance industry hacks. Posting the articles here

gives everyone a chance to learn their names, see what they're saying, and see

what's going on in other communities. Sometimes, people here get in contact with

the reporters and tell them the other side of the story. Sometimes, dissent is

posted here because we get high rankings on google searches. Anyone doing

research will then find the opposing comments as well as all the self-promoting

claptrap they spew. LOL. Ohhh, man. You must have been thinking we were

spectacularly stupid to post that kind of stuff here! If we did have a threaded

board, I can assure you, the title of that section would probably be anything

but complementary!

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Yes, that is exactly what I meant!

Serena, at the risk of being labeled nuts.. let me take it a bit further..

I actually do think there's much more going on here than meets the

eye.. This stuff I'm describing is happening in other environmental

forums.. why wouldn't it be happening here?

Where do I start.. Well, I have heard that there are now specialized

PR firms that specialize in this.. Its not just political

stuff..elections and the like.. they also do lots of corporate and

industry 'issue management'. Why wouldn't they be places like this? -

there must be a lot of vested interests who are desperate to stop - to

give the best and most obvious example - the recognition of Dr.

Shoemaker's CSM therapy for the simple reason that it is a

detoxification therapy, a straightforward one..

That seems to me to be something that is obvious.. They would want to

stop it or - at least delay its adoption..for as long as they could..

Why? CSM's use ends the calculated ambiguity they are depending on..

It sounds insane.. it really is pathologically insane.. to wish so

many people ill.. but that is how some amoral people think.. They are

only thinking of themselves and they think its all a game.. with

people's lives, even..

and terrifyingly..

THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO OFTEN RUN THINGS ON THIS PLANET...

Look at the world wars we have had, the insane levels of killing so

that a few people could maintain their death grips on one or another

kind of power.. the 'blame the victim' 'war on the weak' mentality..

When you look at that is it implausible that some would rather

thousands, or even millions of people's lives were ruined than admit

they are wrong.. and deal with the ramifications?

There are companies that specialize in 'issue management' or 'crisis

management' and 'sowing doubt' on Internet fora is one of the ways

they do it.. They try to obscure clear issues by making things seem

ambiguous..

Its been proven that even in the face of overwhelming evidence

supporting their need to change an opinion - (lookup 'cognitive

dissonance theory') people will cling to a shred of evidence that

supports their previously held opinion. Sowing doubt - by talking up

'known spurious' also gives reporters eager to downplay the very real

positive consensus on certain things (like CSM) here - a 'hook' they

can use to criticize this issue.. by mentioning the 'known crazy'

issue as 'being discussed here'...

Does this make sense? Look, I know this is a rant.. (and it doesn't

have to get posted).. but..

On 1/14/06, SERENA EDWARDS <pushcrash@...> wrote:

> Seen and appreciated. Thanks for explaining what you meant earlier by " sowing

doubt " . I've never had the feeling that anyone gets paid to sow doubt about

Shoemaker or his methods except for the defense experts who get paid for trying

to shoot him down and various government lackeys who would like to ignore the

whole problem of indoor mold altogether.

>

[Guest guest]

Right idea. Run a bit amok, perhaps. But yes. There are some people who don't

want this thing resolved. Don't get too out there with it, though. They're known

quantities. Mere humans. Lousy rotten excuses for humans, sure. But there's

absolutely nothing magical about them. They do not possess super-hero powers.

Their only remarkable quality is their complete and utter willingness to sell

out innocent people for hard cash. It's not even an original plot. Human history

is filled with this kind of story, so don't get too caught up in speculation and

conspiracy theories. It would be just jim dandy with them if you gave in to that

kind of thinking and missed the stuff they do right in front of you. Consider -

if the substances responsible for all this illness were visible to the naked

eye, 99% of their scamming would be obvious to a poorly-educated 6 year-old. If

most onset of the illness was sudden and acute and tripped any of the usual lab

tests, they wouldn't have a prayer of sailing

it past the thousands of physicians who will encounter it in their careers. The

bad guys know this very well. They've been counting on it.

So, ok. That much is our bad luck. But don't sweat it too hard. There's way

too many of us and the numbers are growing. Take a look at the numbers on any of

the component conditions like allergies and asthma and CFS. You don't have to be

an epidemiologist to figure that one out. The sheer size of the numbers involved

make confidence intervals into a pathetic joke. They missed a couple of tricks.

They didn't count on us all coming together like this. They didn't count on

Katrina and Rita accelerating things. There's already too much good science

under us for this to game to run all that much longer. What you're seeing right

now is nothing more than these guys squirming and trying to snag a little more

of the pot before they have to fold and back away from the table. They know it,

we know it. Don't expect instant results, and don't sit around waiting for all

this to be done. I think we're going to see the number and nature of those news

items change substantially, but not instantly.

Meanwhile, you have to care for you and yours, first and foremost. You're the

only one who can do that, and it's every bit as vital as kicking bad guy butt.

Serena

There is no such thing as an anomaly. Recheck your original premise.

...Ayn Rand,

paraphrased

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

In my neck of the woods- very close to Shoemaker- people who do not

understand what he does- including allot in the medical field- just

call him a quack- that is pretty mainstream also- just makes me so

mad

>

> I just wanted to peep in on something I've seen a lot of here.

>

> It seems to me, from reading his book, that Dr. Shoemaker's

approach

> to mold-related illness falls squarely within the Western medical

> tradition of the scientific method, and Western modalities of

> treatment. The idea of using cholestyramine to bind mycotoxins

> circulating between the bloodstream, bilary system, liver and small

> intestine seems like a very straightforward, logical, 'Western'

> appraoch as well, and for me and many (perhaps thousands of people

at

> this point) clearly works wonders.. Also, in Mold Warriors, if

> anything, Dr. Shoemaker *lays out his mental processes and the

logic

> that goes into his evolving treatment for all to see*

>

> That takes a lot of guts and HONESTY.. And, it also is squarely

within

> the Western, mainstream medical system. Its clear to me that Dr.

> Shoemaker is an honest guy with nothing to hide, who is happy with

his

> life and is not trying to commercialize or monopolize a treatment

that

> could bring huge improvements in health to literally millions of

> people living with mold-related illness.

>

> WHY, THEN, ARE SO MANY PEOPLE TRYING TO IMPLY THAT HE IS AN

> 'UNCONVENTIONAL' DOCTOR?

>

> In my opinion, he really isn't. For Chrissakes, he has testified in

> front of the Congress and Senate.. what is more mainstream than

that?

>

> Jesus said 'By their fruit shall you know them'. This is GOOD

ADVICE...

>

> My feeling is that some people sow doubt and confusion in forums

like

> this because they are trying to indirectly, discredit him and

through

> a subtle kind of minsinformation, 'guilt by association' ? - delay

the

> (in my mind, inevitable) acceptance of the increasingly large body

of

> new knowledge that Dr. Shoemaker and his colleagues are trying to

GIVE

> to all of us and the world..

>

> Perhaps the reason is because then THEY feel as if THEY won;t be

able

> to make as much money off of something...???? Off of desperate

people

> PAYING for things that they shouldn't need to..

>

> If people wonder why I sometimes have gotten mad on here from time

to

> time.. this is what gets me mad.. seeing things like that.. Please

> accept my apology..

>

> And to put my cards on the table, I am not selling anything, being

> paid by anybody, or representing anything.. I am just trying to

help..

> and help - through learning - myself..

>

[Guest guest]

Anybody read " Osler's Web " ? about the history of CFS?

Our wondrous local doctors teamed up to try and destroy Dr Cheney

and Dr . It was brutal. And they have never yet offered

any apology for the sheer evil they perpetrated.

I was describing to about the dozenth doctor how mold was killing

me, and like the rest, he ignored the information and

recommended " hug therapy " . I kid you not!

Well I saw a newspaper headline about the " Tahoe Mystery Illness "

that we all knew about - except for the doctors, but THIS time, it

was about Dr Cheney and Dr attempts to find out what was

going on. Unbelievable. A couple of doctors had finally broken out

of the mainstream mold and were listening to us!

I showed this newspaper to the hug-happy doctors and said " This

describes everything I've been saying " and he said " Oh yes, I know

about that. "

I couldn't believe it. I said " You KNEW, but you DIDN'T TELL ME?? "

He said " Those two are nothing but quacks and they should be run out

of town " .

Well, it was ME who did the running, right out of this clowns office

and down the street to see Dr Cheney.

I didn't have far to run either, only about six buildings away.

Funny, but it was the " It's All in Your Head " doctor who was

condemning Dr Cheney and Dr as being quacks, alternative -

and in defiance of science. A doctor who was play acting as

psychiatrist calling the initiators of the public awareness of CFS a

couple of quacks and incompetents!

And at the time - it was THIS view that was completely " traditional "

and mainstream!

-

[Guest guest]

Doctors who play by the rules should be able to sue people who engage

in this kind of attack if the attackers play dirty..

We also need to recognize that science is a moving target, and that

these days, working doctors are often so busy that they don't have the

time to stay up to date on the newest discoveries and therapies.

In the case of something like mold, now that it seems that FINALLY we

are getting some legitimation, there should be a way of getting

mass-approval by, for example, HMOs of the tests and therapies that

help mold victims.

Don't they see that this would save them a LOT of money in the long

run, as mold toxicity causes many, many other illnesses, many of which

can be extremely expensive to treat and deal with? (Not to mention the

ruined lives.. the cost of that is absolutely astronomical.. almost

unmeasurable.)

Its always cheaper to treat the cause of a problem rather than try to

belatedly address the damage caused by it... ex post facto..

Would HMOs see this? I don't know. But they really should.. its an imperative...