Migraine Question

[Guest guest]

Ed,

The TLC Assess is a free download including instructions. That ain't TOO much

of an investment.

Pete

>

> From: EdLangham@...

> Date: 2004/02/25 Wed PM 01:24:04 EST

>

> Subject: Migraine question

>

>

Shuel---

I use the Othmer protocols, without qEEG or TLC, etc. (I lurk for bits and pieces of knowledge....although I'm sure intrigued re: TLC...but not ready to invest yet in the $ or the learning curve!)

I mistakenly barged ahead, using the T3-T4 protocol, at that time using inhibits of 4-7Hz and 22-30Hz. After I triggered the headaches, I jumped on the listservs and got feedback from a variety of practitioners, including Sue Othmer, who brought me up to speed with the need to 'not stray too far from a 12-15Hz reward,' whether doing T3-T4 or Fp1-T4---maybe a 'titch' up or down, if more comfortable, etc. I'm heeding that advice with a current client and so far we're doing just fine, but it's early in the game. Now I also use the broad band inhibits of 2-13Hz and 14-30Hz. For migraines, an additional inhibit at 8-11Hz is recommended---and when combined with the 2-13 inhibit, they are calling that " nested inhibits. "

--

Ed Langham

Saginaw, MI

edlangham@...

[Guest guest]

Ed;

I am not sure if you are still on the list, but if so I am wondring

about the discrepency between what you say below (that Sue Othmer

recommends not to " stray too far " from 12-15 hz at T3-T4, and what

Sig Othmer recently posted (also below) on a different site.

EdLangham@a... wrote:

> I use the Othmer protocols, without qEEG or TLC, etc. (I lurk

for bits and pieces of knowledge....although I'm sure

intrigued re: TLC...but not ready to invest yet in the $ or the

learning curve!)

>

> I mistakenly barged ahead, using the T3-T4 protocol, at that time

using inhibits of 4-7Hz and 22-30Hz. After I triggered the headaches,

I jumped on the listservs and got feedback from a variety of

practitioners, including Sue Othmer, who brought me up to speed with

the need to 'not stray too far from a 12-15Hz reward,' whether doing

T3-T4 or Fp1-T4---maybe a 'titch' up or down, if more comfortable,

etc. I'm heeding that advice with a current client and so far we're

doing just fine, but it's early in the game. Now I also use the broad

band inhibits of 2-13Hz and 14-30Hz. For migraines, an additional

inhibit at 8-11Hz is recommended---and when combined with the 2-13

inhibit, they are calling that " nested inhibits. "

Sig Wrote: (in response to a quesion regarding finding the 'sweet

spot').

Dear --

People tend not to live in awareness of their own state, so one of

the clinical

challenges is to sensitize people to these issues, and to draw them

into

discourse on these matters during and after the sessions. Learning

how to do

this efficiently is one of the key preoccupations in our professional

training

course. So this necessarily goes beyond the bounds of an e-mail.

It is true that as the lower end of the spectrum is approached, there

is a

greater dispersion in responses. That may simply be due to the fact

that those

who need this training in particular may be the more heavily impacted

in the

clinical population. We do our best work, it seems, at the lower end

of the

frequency spectrum.

The factors we key on in our navigation of frequency space remain in

the domain

of arousal, alertness, and perceived affective state. It is quite

startling to

go to 2-5 Hz reward frequency with someone and have him report

suddenly that he

has become more alert, attentive, and calm. Going too far down in

frequency

yields fogginess, drowsiness, spaciness, etc. All of this is of course

immediately reversible as one maps out the personal state space.

People have also found that EEG measures taken during the session can

be helpful

in finding the " sweet spot. " I am reluctant to comment on one of

these methods,

since it is on the threshold of being published, and I don't want to

steal

anyone's thunder. The other approach is to actually look for narrow

dips in the

EEG spectrum. We have not verified this approach.

Since you are actively using this approach among others, it might be

worthwhile

for you to get the Clinical Decision Tree that Sue Othmer has

prepared as a

web-based course. It is available at www.eegshop.com under EEG Media.

Siegfried Othmer, Ph.D.

www.eeginfo.com

" P. Dal Cerro, Ph.D. " <gauge2_99@...> wrote:

Sig;

Could you say a little more about " the sweet spot " . I understand

pretty well the rationalization for the protocol as described here

and elsewhere, and have used it to good effect (for example with a

client with bulimia), but I'm uncertain about establishing the most

effective reward, the lower end, as subjective reports seem to become

less definitive as one approaches he lower end of the spectrum. What

types of untoward effects might one begin to notice signaling that

one has overshot the most appropriate freq.? Is there something one

could look for in the raw EEG?

SDC

> --

> Ed Langham

> Saginaw, MI

> edlangham@a...

[Guest guest]

Dr. Cohen:

It is interesting that you post this

question.  I would estimate almost 50% of my patients are headache and/or neck

pain sufferers.  I get great results with all types of “headaches”.  I think

the diagnosis of migraine is often made because of severity.  I believe MOST

headaches are associated with tissues and structures of the neck and head, and

that manual therapies are often the BEST approach, but usually the LAST resort. 

After $$$$ is spent on diagnostic work-ups, imaging and drugs, the desperate

patient comes to me and has resolution in 1 – 4 visits.  If underlying factors

are not removed or modified of course the patient returns with another

episode.  Not all underlying factors are removable or manageable, so sometimes chiropractic

care is supportive, not curative.  What do I do?  Whatever it takes manually,

i.e. MIT, manual adjusting, Graston like work (SASTM).  Deal with stressors, physical,

emotional/psychological and chemical.  A real sinister cause of HA is CoQ10

depletion d/t statin use.  Allergies are often a trigger of cervicogenic HA. 

Maybe other techniques could change the allergy response but I can alleviate

the HA.  I know other DC’s get great results with other techniques so I’m sure

there is more than one way to crack this nut.

I want to put together a powerful

presentation for chiropractic management of HA and would love references, i.e. Bogduk

and other studies.  I want to be able to present to MD’s and have it bullet

proof.  Sending the finished draft to UHC would also be good.  If anybody would

like to forward me info please do!  When I’m finished (if I do it!) I’ll make

the presentation available for all.

Seitz, DC

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of neroco2@...

Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007

10:21 AM

;

Subject: Migraine

Question

Greetings:

I have a patient who was prescribed imitrix for migraines. She gets worse when

she takes this.

Any suggestions on the chiropractic approach to treatment?

Thanks.

Neil R. Cohen, D.C.

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[Guest guest]

I have been trying to give ideas to a

woman with severe debilitating HA for years. Constant (I mean constant)

Chiropractic care, MD HA rescue care including control of hypertension but

nothing could give her long term relief…..in fact they have worsened and

become more frequent over the years – finally she has revisited a

Naturopath for hormonal care – and now with progesterone cream certain

days of the month along with two Aleve per day (not abandoning every other type

of supportive care she received over the years) the HA’s have come under

a manageable control. I wish it could have all been put together for her years

ago…..

s. fuchs dc

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Seitz

Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007

10:37 AM

Subject: RE:

Migraine Question

Dr. Cohen:

It is interesting that you post this question. I would

estimate almost 50% of my patients are headache and/or neck pain

sufferers. I get great results with all types of

“headaches”. I think the diagnosis of migraine is often made

because of severity. I believe MOST headaches are associated with tissues

and structures of the neck and head, and that manual therapies are often the

BEST approach, but usually the LAST resort. After $$$$ is spent on

diagnostic work-ups, imaging and drugs, the desperate patient comes to me and

has resolution in 1 – 4 visits. If underlying factors are not

removed or modified of course the patient returns with another episode.

Not all underlying factors are removable or manageable, so sometimes

chiropractic care is supportive, not curative. What do I do?

Whatever it takes manually, i.e. MIT, manual adjusting, Graston like work

(SASTM). Deal with stressors, physical, emotional/psychological and

chemical. A real sinister cause of HA is CoQ10 depletion d/t statin

use. Allergies are often a trigger of cervicogenic HA. Maybe other

techniques could change the allergy response but I can alleviate the HA.

I know other DC’s get great results with other techniques so I’m

sure there is more than one way to crack this nut.

I want to put together a powerful presentation for chiropractic

management of HA and would love references, i.e. Bogduk and other

studies. I want to be able to present to MD’s and have it bullet

proof. Sending the finished draft to UHC would also be good. If

anybody would like to forward me info please do! When I’m finished

(if I do it!) I’ll make the presentation available for all.

Seitz, DC

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of neroco2comcast (DOT) net

Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007

10:21 AM

;

Subject: Migraine

Question

Greetings:

I have a patient who was prescribed imitrix for migraines. She gets worse when

she takes this.

Any suggestions on the chiropractic approach to treatment?

Thanks.

Neil R. Cohen, D.C.

No virus

found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1184 - Release Date: 12/14/2007

11:29 AM

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found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

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11:29 AM

[Guest guest]

Forgot to mention Butterbur. It helped,

Migraspray did not. s. fuchs dc

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharron

Fuchs

Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007

11:02 AM

Subject: RE:

Migraine Question

I have been trying to give ideas to a woman with severe

debilitating HA for years. Constant (I mean constant) Chiropractic care, MD HA

rescue care including control of hypertension but nothing could give her long

term relief…..in fact they have worsened and become more frequent over

the years – finally she has revisited a Naturopath for hormonal care

– and now with progesterone cream certain days of the month along with

two Aleve per day (not abandoning every other type of supportive care she

received over the years) the HA’s have come under a manageable control. I

wish it could have all been put together for her years ago…..

s. fuchs dc

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Seitz

Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007

10:37 AM

Subject: RE:

Migraine Question

Dr. Cohen:

It is interesting that you post this question. I would

estimate almost 50% of my patients are headache and/or neck pain

sufferers. I get great results with all types of

“headaches”. I think the diagnosis of migraine is often made because

of severity. I believe MOST headaches are associated with tissues and

structures of the neck and head, and that manual therapies are often the BEST

approach, but usually the LAST resort. After $$$$ is spent on diagnostic

work-ups, imaging and drugs, the desperate patient comes to me and has

resolution in 1 – 4 visits. If underlying factors are not removed

or modified of course the patient returns with another episode. Not all

underlying factors are removable or manageable, so sometimes chiropractic care

is supportive, not curative. What do I do? Whatever it takes

manually, i.e. MIT, manual adjusting, Graston like work (SASTM). Deal

with stressors, physical, emotional/psychological and chemical. A

real sinister cause of HA is CoQ10 depletion d/t statin use. Allergies

are often a trigger of cervicogenic HA. Maybe other techniques could

change the allergy response but I can alleviate the HA. I know other

DC’s get great results with other techniques so I’m sure there is

more than one way to crack this nut.

I want to put together a powerful presentation for chiropractic

management of HA and would love references, i.e. Bogduk and other

studies. I want to be able to present to MD’s and have it bullet

proof. Sending the finished draft to UHC would also be good. If

anybody would like to forward me info please do! When I’m finished

(if I do it!) I’ll make the presentation available for all.

Seitz, DC

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of neroco2comcast (DOT) net

Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007

10:21 AM

;

Subject: Migraine

Question

Greetings:

I have a patient who was prescribed imitrix for migraines. She gets worse when

she takes this.

Any suggestions on the chiropractic approach to treatment?

Thanks.

Neil R. Cohen, D.C.

No virus

found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.2/1184 - Release Date: 12/14/2007

11:29 AM

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found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

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11:29 AM

[Guest guest]

5mg of the anti-spasmodic Baclofen at

bedtime has similar benefits but not as long lasting as the Botox. Botox is of

course injected locally so I don’t think one has to worry about systemic

affects. A good neurologist for those difficult cases is invaluable.

s. fuchs dc

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of rongrice01

Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007

11:25 AM

Subject: Migraine

Question

For those patients that respond to conservative/chiropractic

management

of headaches, but don't show long-term resolution, I have been working

with a neurologist in Corvallis

that is injecting the upper cervical

and sub-occipital muscles with Botox. So far this has been showing

good relief for those patients with a long history of muscle

contraction headaches that have not shown good results or long-term

relief with either meds or conservative care.

Initially the relief is temporary, usually less than two weeks, but as

the repeated injections are given, the relief is longer lasting. I

realize there are toxic side effects to this drug but when the patient

is at the end of their rope, anything is appreciated.

Grice, DC

Albany, OR

[Guest guest]

Isn't Botulism natural??????????????

Grice, DC

Albany, OR

[Guest guest]

Category II and cranials! She will walk out of your office having had her LAST headache! Sunny ;'-))

Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C

Eugene, Oregon, 97401

541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955

; From: neroco2@...Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 18:20:35 +0000Subject: Migraine Question

Greetings:I have a patient who was prescribed imitrix for migraines. She gets worse when she takes this. Any suggestions on the chiropractic approach to treatment?Thanks.Neil R. Cohen, D.C. Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. Share now!

[Guest guest]

Hey Kids!

Sunny and I are planning to meet the second Saturday of every month at

her office in Eugene to study and practice SOT. Anyone who wants to

join us is welcome! The first meeting will be 9 am to noon Saturday,

January 12, 2008.

There has also been a group meeting up in Portland the first Saturday

of every month. (would somebody in this group on the list serve please

contact me off list?)

No chiropractor in Oregon need be without knowledge of this wonderful

classic chiropractic technique! If you are interested, contact me or

Sunny.

Annette

541-942-9031

Annette

On Friday, December 14, 2007, at 12:12 PM, Sunny Kierstyn wrote:

> Category II and cranials!   She will walk out of your office having

> had her LAST headache!  Sunny  ;'-))

> Sunny Kierstyn, RN DC

> Fibromyalgia Care Center of Oregon

> 2677 Willakenzie Road, 7C

> Eugene, Oregon, 97401

> 541- 344- 0509; Fx; 541- 344- 0955

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

> ;

> From: neroco2@...

> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 18:20:35 +0000

> Subject: Migraine Question

>

> Greetings:

>

> I have a patient who was prescribed imitrix for migraines. She gets

> worse when she takes this.

>

> Any suggestions on the chiropractic approach to treatment?

>

> Thanks.

>

> Neil R. Cohen, D.C.

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

> Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. Share now!

>