Re: Honey & Beeswax

[Guest guest]

It is considered an animal products by purists, but I think it's one of

those things that are often overlooked as being an animal product by some

people.

Sparks

I saw a list of ingredients on a big co. soap with honey yet they state they

use no animal ingredients. Are honey and beeswax considered animal

ingredients or just the beeswax?

belle

[Guest guest]

belle~

I have seen this before but I think what I saw was that their products did

not contain animal fat...to me animal fat means slaughtering the animal and

using the fat and of course with bees you do not need to do this to obtain

their beeswax...

Just a thought.

Blessings ~

Tammy

Gladheart Acres

[Guest guest]

Thanks , I thought so. Just wanted to get a better opinion.

> It is considered an animal products by purists, but I think it's one of

> those things that are often overlooked as being an animal product by some

> people.

>

> Sparks

>

>

>

>

> I saw a list of ingredients on a big co. soap with honey yet they state

they

> use no animal ingredients. Are honey and beeswax considered animal

> ingredients or just the beeswax?

>

> belle

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

As a vegan company with vegan certification, honey is an animals

ingredient. Often people do this to drum up sales, making the whole

industry look shady

Goddess Garden~ Where Herbs are our Heartsong~

http://www.demetria.com <http://www.demetria.com/>

Heart of Herbs

http://www.heartofherbs.com <http://www.heartofherbs.com/>

Herbal Correspondence, Apprenticeships and Workshops

Honey & Beeswax

I saw a list of ingredients on a big co. soap with honey yet they state

they use no animal ingredients. Are honey and beeswax considered animal

ingredients or just the beeswax?

belle

[Guest guest]

i have a thoguth about bees and honey etc since when are bees animals they

are insects . i know some folks think it is wrong to harvest honey and

beeswax but you can use beeswax and honey and still be animal free or can you

we are animals and we make the products LOL sorry i am sleepy ignore that

,tamika

[Guest guest]

Demetria wrote:

> In the Vegan community, honey and beeswax are animal products.

> These must be ommitted to recieve any kind of Vegan/Animal Free

> recognition.

------------------<snip>----------------------------------------------

Thanks for sharing your perspective Demetria. You sound inteligent,

reasonable and gracious to me.

I am just getting my company off the ground and want to keep my cp soaps

all-natural. (I may change my mind later, who knows? But I definately want to

be truthful about my claims.)

Anyway..... I had my brochure all written up and in them had proclaimed

without thinking that I use " No animal fats or animal products of any kind " .

Well..... I have already been using cream and honey in one soap and plan to

use goatmilk and beeswax in the future. It just didn't hit me until this

thread that I was about to tell a big fat lie.

Of course, I will change the brochure now.

Although I " might " be able to justify the use of aquamarines and oxides

because technically they are minerals, I have decided not to, in order to

keep my concience clear. Not that I think it would be a bad thing, I just

don't want someone challanging me about the fact that they (the products

available to us) don't occure naturally. And yes, I know.... LYE! But we

can't get around that one without leeching our own potash, can we?

Anyway.... enjoyed your thoughts and perspective on this.

Carless

[Guest guest]

BTW Alaskan bees do not have mites.))) And I love the little busy bees and

hope to consider myself one of the reputable, non-exploiting

beekeepers.(Also Francine on this list is another loving beekeeper). And our

sweet milk goats would be ill treated, in pain, and subject to mastitis if

we did not milk them. Besides that, they would bawl *loudly*. )

Demetria, although you and I have varying opinions on this issue, I

appreciate the calm tone of your post and the acknowledgement that there are

those who really care for their animals.

Blessings ~

Tammy

Gladheart Acres

[Guest guest]

My only question is this: what is the alternative? I

read on the PETA board that they suggest parafin. But

there are many people out there that don't want to use

petroliates.

So, if I can't use beeswax and I can't use parafin,

what is left?

I, myself, like beeswax. I like it's properties, the

smell, etc. (I use the unrefined whenever possible.) I

love everything about it and will probably continue to

use it. However, I will make sure I know my supplier

(who happens to be local and someone I can visit) and

make sure he is on the up-and-up with his beekeeping.

I love animals and don't want to do anything to

exploit or cause harm to them. I do believe I can use

some animal products (or byproducts) if I do so

responsibly. I don't use tallow or lard. But, I am

not averse to using cream, eggs, goats milk, honey,

beeswax and the like. I am not vegan. So, I guess I

will have to advertise myself as a " lacto-ovo "

toiletries producer! LOL!!!

MK

--- Demetria <demetria@...> wrote:

> As a vegan company with vegan certification, honey

> is an animals

> ingredient. Often people do this to drum up sales,

> making the whole

> industry look shady

>

>

>

> Goddess Garden~ Where Herbs are our Heartsong~

> http://www.demetria.com <http://www.demetria.com/>

> Heart of Herbs

> http://www.heartofherbs.com

> <http://www.heartofherbs.com/>

> Herbal Correspondence, Apprenticeships and Workshops

>

>

>

> Honey & Beeswax

>

>

> I saw a list of ingredients on a big co. soap with

> honey yet they state

> they use no animal ingredients. Are honey and

> beeswax considered animal

> ingredients or just the beeswax?

>

> belle

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> From: " Demetria " <demetria@...>

> In the Vegan community, honey and beeswax are animal products.

> These must be ommitted to recieve any kind of Vegan/Animal Free

> recognition.

Can you explain the reasoning for this? I can understand why a vegan may not

want to use milk, because it comes from within an animal and has animal fat

in it, but wax and honey are manufactured by the bee.

> I personally feel that is you can make a stellar product without the

> animal ingredients then do so.

For some products, I agree, beeswax is not always the best choice, the

alternative is plant wax, but then there are people that think we shouldn't

exploit plants either, so where do you draw the line?

One it saves our natural resources and it

> prevents animals being exploited for fat pockets in their backs and bees

> for their honey by products.

> Honey, royal jelly, pollen and our bees are resources that are being

> abused.

I believe the opposite is true. Most people that have invested their time

and money are not going to risk losing it by exploiting the bees. This does

not even take in to consideration that many people that raise bees have a

love for it.

I choose to conserve rather than use, although I am an

> herbalist first and a toiletries manufacturer second.

Cows and goats need to be milked, and we have the choice of using the milk

or throwing it down the drain. I believe it would be a much greater sin to

throw it down the drain.

Many say not

> tested on animals but they contain animal products this is not stating

> animal free.

This is usually bs because if your product contains any chemicals, they have

probably been tested on animals somewhere along the line.

Personally I believe these claims are made to drum up sales

> and to prey on an uneducated market. I am not saying any of you do this,

> I am speaking generally of larger companies.

If you are in business, you are going to make claims. Otherwise you won't be

in business very long. All claims are designed to drum up business; there is

nothing wrong with this. If you are going to play in the business world then

you must promote your business. Don't you make claims for your business?

> We are all different and the animal product stuff causes so many to get

> upset. I don't know why.

This is a large group and there are many that raise animals and bees. There

are many more that come from a farm background. I don't belong to any of

those groups, although my Grandparents farmed and I was brought up in a

small town where the farmland started at the end of our street. I think your

beliefs threaten the people that raise animals, whether you come right out

and say it or not, your lifestyle implies it. When people see your beliefs

as a threat, they are naturally going to defend themselves.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity.

www.houseofscents.com

Cosmeticinfo

[Guest guest]

> My only question is this: what is the alternative? I

> read on the PETA board that they suggest parafin. But

> there are many people out there that don't want to use

> petroliates.

> So, if I can't use beeswax and I can't use parafin,

> what is left?

Candelilla Wax can be substituted for beeswax, it's what I use. There are

other plant waxes as well, but candelilla is affordable and readily

available.

Raelyn

_________________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Where is the candelilla wax available? This stuff is all so new to me....I think

you all may be speaking another language!!

TIA

[Guest guest]

candelilla - what is it, exactly? And, how can I get

myself in trouble using it? Who (what group) will

object it? LOL!

MK

--- Botanical's Best <botanicalsbest@...> wrote:

> > My only question is this: what is the

> alternative? I

> > read on the PETA board that they suggest parafin.

> But

> > there are many people out there that don't want to

> use

> > petroliates.

> > So, if I can't use beeswax and I can't use

> parafin,

> > what is left?

>

> Candelilla Wax can be substituted for beeswax, it's

> what I use. There are

> other plant waxes as well, but candelilla is

> affordable and readily

> available.

>

> Raelyn

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

candelilla - what is it, exactly? And, how can I get

myself in trouble using it? Who (what group) will

object it? LOL!

Hi,

It is from the South American Palm Tree. I don't know who would object

It is a lot " harder " than beeswax and has a higher melt point, so keep

this in mind when subbing it. (Use less)

Jen

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the reply. Sounds like good advice (using

less if it is harder) South America, eh? It's not

from the rain forrest, is it? :-)

I don't believe so, lol, that's all we'd need

Jen

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the reply. Sounds like good advice (using

less if it is harder) South America, eh? It's not

from the rain forrest, is it? :-)

MK

--- virginia snider <labcolours@...> wrote:

> candelilla - what is it, exactly? And, how can I

> get

> myself in trouble using it? Who (what group) will

> object it? LOL!

>

> Hi,

> It is from the South American Palm Tree. I

> don't know who would object

> It is a lot " harder " than beeswax and has a

> higher melt point, so keep this in mind when subbing

> it. (Use less)

>

> Jen

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

My personal opinion here (since so many others have..hehe), you cant please

all the people all the time so use what YOU like, and what is more pleasing

to you, and easier for you to use.

I would rather use beeswax and use products with beeswax then the

alternatives. But then I also prefer to use cream and lotions that have NO

wax:o)

Did you know you *do not* need to use any wax at all? And it makes, IMO a

much softer soothing cream.

Happy Mothers day to all the moms:o)

Karla

Re: Honey & Beeswax

> candelilla - what is it, exactly? And, how can I get

> myself in trouble using it? Who (what group) will

> object it? LOL!

>

> Hi,

> It is from the South American Palm Tree. I don't know who would

object

> It is a lot " harder " than beeswax and has a higher melt point, so

keep this in mind when subbing it. (Use less)

>

> Jen

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

virginia snider wrote:

>Thanks for the reply. Sounds like good advice (using

> less if it is harder) South America, eh? It's not

> from the rain forrest, is it? :-)

>

> I don't believe so, lol, that's all we'd need

well, if it's a sustainable resource (ie: they don't cut down the tree) then

it'd be VERY approved

~risa

[Guest guest]

I posted this on the 12th and it through on May 15, 2001 I am sorry that

this is so late. I don't know why. Any suggestions. Are others having

post delays?

Goddess Garden~ Where Herbs are our Heartsong~

http://www.demetria.com <http://www.demetria.com/>

Heart of Herbs

http://www.heartofherbs.com <http://www.heartofherbs.com/>

Herbal Correspondence, Apprenticeships and Workshops

Re: Honey & Beeswax

> From: " Demetria " <demetria@...>

> In the Vegan community, honey and beeswax are animal products.

> These must be ommitted to recieve any kind of Vegan/Animal Free

> recognition.

Can you explain the reasoning for this? I can understand why a vegan may

not

want to use milk, because it comes from within an animal and has animal

fat

in it, but wax and honey are manufactured by the bee.

> I personally feel that is you can make a stellar product without the

> animal ingredients then do so.

For some products, I agree, beeswax is not always the best choice, the

alternative is plant wax, but then there are people that think we

shouldn't

exploit plants either, so where do you draw the line?

One it saves our natural resources and it

> prevents animals being exploited for fat pockets in their backs and

bees

> for their honey by products.

> Honey, royal jelly, pollen and our bees are resources that are being

> abused.

I believe the opposite is true. Most people that have invested their

time

and money are not going to risk losing it by exploiting the bees. This

does

not even take in to consideration that many people that raise bees have

a

love for it.

I choose to conserve rather than use, although I am an

> herbalist first and a toiletries manufacturer second.

Cows and goats need to be milked, and we have the choice of using the

milk

or throwing it down the drain. I believe it would be a much greater sin

to

throw it down the drain.

Many say not

> tested on animals but they contain animal products this is not stating

> animal free.

This is usually bs because if your product contains any chemicals, they

have

probably been tested on animals somewhere along the line.

Personally I believe these claims are made to drum up sales

> and to prey on an uneducated market. I am not saying any of you do

this,

> I am speaking generally of larger companies.

If you are in business, you are going to make claims. Otherwise you

won't be

in business very long. All claims are designed to drum up business;

there is

nothing wrong with this. If you are going to play in the business world

then

you must promote your business. Don't you make claims for your business?

> We are all different and the animal product stuff causes so many to

get

> upset. I don't know why.

This is a large group and there are many that raise animals and bees.

There

are many more that come from a farm background. I don't belong to any of

those groups, although my Grandparents farmed and I was brought up in a

small town where the farmland started at the end of our street. I think

your

beliefs threaten the people that raise animals, whether you come right

out

and say it or not, your lifestyle implies it. When people see your

beliefs

as a threat, they are naturally going to defend themselves.

Pat.

Peace, Joy, Serenity.

www.houseofscents.com

Cosmeticinfo

[Guest guest]

Demetria,

Though I do not agree 100% with your philosophy regarding bees and

honey, I do thank you for posting that exhaustive list. There were a

few on it that I didn't know about - crushed snails for instance.

Ewww! Thanks for taking the time. It was very informative. ;-)

-----------------------

's Garden - Premium Essential Oils & More!

http://www.vsgarden.com

-----------------------

[Guest guest]

As a beekeeper who loves and cares for bees, I am highly offended by PETA and

their deliberate misinformation in order to advance their radical ideology.

Bee Pollen.

Microsporic grains in seed plants gathered by bees then collected from

the legs of bees. Causes allergic reactions in some people. In

nutritional supplements, shampoos, toothpastes, deodorants.

Alternatives: synthetics, plant amino acids, pollen collected from

plants.

PETA is contradicting itself

Pollen is collected by bees on ALL flowering plants - flowers, fruit trees,

melons, cucumbers, peas, beans, wildflowers, etc. Bees go from flower to

flower collecting pollen and dropping pollen, thus effecting pollination.

Some wind pollination occurs, but the majority is done by bees.....no bees,

no food! Bees in no way steal seeds from plants causing a shortage of future

plant life...if anything, they increase it. Why do you suppose almond

growers, melon growers, and other farmers in California and other states pay

beekeepers to bring in bees to pollinate their crops? For higher yield, of

course! As for the honey produced by the bees for an almond crop....they get

to keep all of it - it's much too bitter for human consumption. Bees use it

to build up their depleted winter stores and for brood rearing, thus

producing more bees.

Bee Products.

Produced by bees for their own use. Bees are selectively bred. Culled

bees are killed. A cheap sugar is substituted for their stolen honey.

Millions die as a result. Their legs are often torn off by

pollen collection trapdoors.

These statements are absolutely ridiculous! Millions die - A Boldface LIE!

Bees are selectively bred for gentleness, disease resistance, and honey

production. There are no culled bees! Bees have a very short life span, so

the population of the entire hive changes every six weeks. A worker bee's

job changes within the hive structure...when first born a worker becomes a

nurse bee taking care of the larvae and baby bees. After a week or two, the

nurse bees become field bees to replace the ones that have died of " old

age " . As for the legs of bees being torn off in the pollen or propolis

collection process, this is false! Bees walk over wire screens which are

designed to simply scrape off some of the larger pollen grains. Not all of

the pollen drops off - there is more than enough for the bees to use to feed

their brood as well as for human use. Think about this....a beekeeper is

never going to do anything to harm his bees....why would a beekeeper take all

of the pollen and not leave any for the bees to feed to their brood. This

would bring about the demise of the hive. As for propolis, bees do not eat

propolis - it is used by the bees to glue things together in the hive as well

as seal cracks, etc. Propolis is tree rosin. As for substituting cheap

sugar for honey....another ludicrous statement! Bees do not care if sugar is

ten cents a pound or two dollars a pound - sugar is sugar. The only time

bees are fed sugar is to ward off starvation if a hive does not have enough

winter stores of honey (usually caused by a hive with a small population) or

the beekeeper has divided an overcrowded hive and started a new hive.

Feeding the bees sugar or sugar syrup enables them to start building comb,

feed their hatching brood, and avoid starvation. Sugar has no ill effect on

bees, and is metabolized by them the same as honey is. As soon as the bees

have their own honey stores to feed on, sugar supplements are discontinued.

Keep in mind that the nectar of flowers also contains sucrose and fructose.

Beeswax. Honeycomb.

Wax obtained from melting honeycomb with boiling water, straining it,

and cooling it. From virgin bees.

Beeswax is made by bees to store nectar in, which is then ripened and

thickens, producing honey. The beeswax that is taken from the hive is a

surplus that are actually the cappings which the bees use to seal in the

honey. Also, these frames of honey that are taken from the hive for human

consumption are never from the brood chambers, but are extra supers that are

put above the brood chambers during the spring and summer nectar flows. In

my part of California, that is beginning to happen now. In a few days, I

will put supers on my 6 hives and this is how I will obtain my honey crop.

In no way am I depriving the bees of honey - they have had time to build up

their own stores in the brood chambers, so this is all surplus. If I did not

put on supers, the hives would become " honey bound " , with the bees taking up

any extra comb cells for nectar, thus not leaving the queen any open cells to

lay eggs and thus causing a reduction in population. Also, all the worker

bees are virgins with the queen being the only one who has mated and thus is

able to lay eggs. The queen is the mother of the entire hive. Drones are

males who serve only one function - to mate with the queen (this only happens

once), and they are then driven out of the hive by workers because their

usefulness has ended. Royal jelly is also another surplus product. Royal

jelly is produced by the bees and is used to feed only the larvae that is set

aside to become a queen bee. Not all larvae are fed royal jelly. Since the

first queen to hatch in a hive stings the rest of the emerging queens killing

them, the royal jelly harvested in no way affects the well being of the hive.

I hope this sets the record straight regarding bees and their hive products.

If a person chooses to use an alternative product, that is their choice. My

main purpose in writing this was to let everyone know that PETA is not to be

trusted. The have and do deliberately mislead people using lies and

misinformation.

Francine

[Guest guest]

Francine, that was way cool, i never knew o much about bees. i love honey and

i think beeswax candles are the best to burn but now i am thinking if i wan't

so scary having a hive would be really neat. i could help the environment and

myself to some yummy honey thanks for that informative article,tamika

[Guest guest]

Francine~

As a fellow beekeeper I always read and appreciate what you write. These are

things that I know but you have a very clear, concise way of writing. Thank

you for the time you put into your posts. Enjoy your buzzing buddies! )))

Blessings in Him~

Tammy

Gladheart Acres

[Guest guest]

Thanks Tammy!

I really appreciate your support and kind words.

Francine

R & T Shields wrote:

> Francine~

>

> As a fellow beekeeper I always read and appreciate what you write.

>

> Blessings in Him~

> Tammy

> Gladheart Acres

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

belle

You're very welcome.

Francine

[Guest guest]

> Francine, that was way cool, i never knew o much about bees. i love honey

and

> i think beeswax candles are the best to burn but now i am thinking if i

wan't

> so scary having a hive would be really neat. i could help the environment

and

> myself to some yummy honey thanks for that informative article,tamika

Tamika~

Keeping bees really isn't scary although at the end of the season when there

are thousands of them buzzing around you it can be a little unnerving. )

Honeybees are very gentle creatures and the only times (3!!!) hubby and I

have ever gotten stung was when we were working them and accidentally

squashed one ( , they simply are not agressive even when working their

hives. Perhaps Francine can better explain this too, I am waiting for her to

write a book (it'd *bee* a good one, wouldn't it?!) The other days while in

their hive we had the blessed opportunity to watch a bee emerge from the

brood cell ( it was kinda being " born " )...awe inspiring.

And, BTW, congratulations on baby #5...we are expecting #7 in Aug. )))

Blessings ~

Tammy

Gladheart Acres