Guest guest Posted May 20, 2003 Report Share Posted May 20, 2003 From: Goldring <paul.goldring@...> Date: Tue May 20, 2003 4:00:26 PM US/Eastern Braintrainer Subject: High Beta Coherence I've just started using the TLC assessment template and I have a question. Two patients have a problem with high beta coherence. One I've mentioned has a seizure disorder. But now a second one, also with a history of anoxia and smoke inhalation has pretty much the same thing. The syllabus says this is " Locking " but gives no protocols for working with it. I'm wondering what other people do to deal with this issue. It's possible to downtrain coherence. Would that be the thing to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Hi Sometimes these meds can give people a " buzz " of sinusoidal beta that is at many sites. When the same EEG is at many sites, coherence will be high. If sinusoidal beta from meds is what is happening, you can see it in the raw EEG. This kind of beta is shaped like alpha but is in the beta frequency range, generally between 18 and 25 cycles per second. If you see this fast sinusoidal activity in the EEG, you can assume that is due to meds. If, so, don't train it. Based on what you said about his symptoms, this child sounds like he may have some anxiety or OCD features to what is being called ADHD. I can't give training recommendations w/o a QEEG- I have used a Q's to guide training since 1996 and I cannot work without one anymore. I can tell you that it is not uncommon to see an odd pattern in QEEG maps when there are OCD symptoms. There is a pattern of activity over many of the midline (Fz Cz Pz) sites. This can be in any band but it is often in beta or slow alpha and it always includes Fz. In adults it is often a region of slow alpha at 7 and or 8 Hz at FZ. At the same time, posterior alpha will be a faster, between 9 and 10. This pattern is common enough that when I see it, I ask if the person ever has negative thoughts or feelings they can't get out of their mind. If they say yes, I show them the pattern of odd midline activity in the maps and they are impressed and have more faith that I can help them. Check out Fz, Cz, and Pz, and see about alpha speeds and also look at the raw beta pattern. I hope this is helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 -- Extremely helpful! Many thanks! -- T. Lindsey, M.S.,L.M.F.T. Claremont, CA Santa Ana, CA 909-626-5313 -------------- Original message -------------- > > > Hi > > Sometimes these meds can give people a "buzz" of sinusoidal beta that > is at many sites. When the same EEG is at many sites, coherence will > be high. If sinusoidal beta from meds is what is happening, you can > see it in the raw > EEG. This kind of beta is shaped like alpha but is in the beta > frequency range, generally between 18 and 25 cycles per second. > > If you see this fast sinusoidal activity in the EEG, you can assume > that is due to meds. If, so, don't train it. > > Based on what you said about his symptoms, this child sounds like he > may have some anxiety or OCD features to what is being called ADHD. I > can't give training recommendations w/o a QEEG- I have used a Q's to > guide training since 1996 and I cannot work without one anymore. > > I can tell you that it is not uncommon to see an odd pattern in QEEG > maps when there are OCD symptoms. There is a pattern of activity over > many of the midline (Fz Cz Pz) sites. This can be in any band but it > is often in beta or slow alpha and it always includes Fz. In adults it > is often a region of slow alpha at 7 and or 8 Hz at FZ. At the same > time, posterior alpha will be a faster, between 9 and 10. This pattern > is common enough that when I see it, I ask if the person ever has > negative thoughts or feelings they can't get out of their mind. If > they say yes, I show them the pattern of odd midline activity in the > maps and they are impressed and have more faith that I can help them. > > Check out Fz, Cz, and Pz, and see about alpha speeds and also look at > the raw beta pattern. > > I hope this is helpful. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 Hi I am sorry, I made a mistake in my last post: Stimulants do not cause spindling beta- other meds do. If spindling beta is not from needs, you can train it down. Determine the frequncy and make a 3 Hz band with that in the middle and train it down (of course this depends on the equipment you are using). If you can record the EEG and run it back, you can pause the playback and then you can simply count the number of waves per second, if you know how many seconds are in the window you are viewing. You can also calculate the peak frequncy of beta and fast beta to figure out the frequncy. I like counting the waves but you need to be able to access them to do this. If you determine that spindling beta is causing the problem, others on the list will have good suggestions on how to fix it as well. > -- Extremely helpful! Many thanks! > > -- > T. Lindsey, M.S.,L.M.F.T. > Claremont, CA > Santa Ana, CA > 909-626-5313 > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > > > > Hi > > > > Sometimes these meds can give people a " buzz " of sinusoidal beta that > > is at many sites. When the same EEG is at many sites, coherence will > > be high. If sinusoidal beta from meds is what is happening, you can > > see it in the raw > > EEG. This kind of beta is shaped like alpha but is in the beta > > frequency range, generally between 18 and 25 cycles per second. > > > > If you see this fast sinusoidal activity in the EEG, you can assume > > that is due to meds. If, so, don't train it. > > > > Based on what you said about his symptoms, this child sounds like he > > may have some anxiety or OCD features to what is being called ADHD. I > > can't give training recommendations w/o a QEEG- I have used a Q's to > > guide training since 1996 and I cannot work without one anymore. > > > > I can tell you that it is not uncommon to see an odd pattern in QEEG > > maps when there are OCD symptoms. There is a pattern of activity over > > many of the midline (Fz Cz Pz) sites. This can be in any band but it > > is often in beta or slow alpha and it always includes Fz. In adults it > > is often a region of slow alpha at 7 and or 8 Hz at FZ. At the same > > time, posterior alpha will be a faster, between 9 and 10. This pattern > > is common enough that when I see it, I ask if the person ever has > > negative thoughts or feelings they can't get out of their mind. If > > they say yes, I show them the pattern of odd midline activity in the > > maps and they are impressed and have more faith that I can help them. > > > > Check out Fz, Cz, and Pz, and see about alpha speeds and also look at > > the raw beta pattern. > > > > I hope this is helpful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 Many thanks . this little guys main issue is "fear" and I think the hi beta correlates. to my knowledge he has not been abused, and I am wondering what other possible life experiences may have transpired to cause such high hi beta in three lobes. If anyone has any experience or thoughts I'd appreciate it. This little guy is a neat kid -- very cooperative and wants to do the right thing, really notices detail, asks good questions -- I think he is a nueroscientist in the making! Thanks, -- T. Lindsey, M.S.,L.M.F.T. Claremont, CA Santa Ana, CA 909-626-5313 -------------- Original message -------------- > > > Hi > > I am sorry, I made a mistake in my last post: > > Stimulants do not cause spindling beta- other meds do. If spindling > beta is not from needs, you can train it down. Determine the frequncy > and make a 3 Hz band with that in the middle and train it down (of > course this depends on the equipment you are using). If you can record > the EEG and run it back, you can pause the playback and then you can > simply count the number of waves per second, if you know how many > seconds are in the window you are viewing. You can also calculate the > peak frequncy of beta and fast beta to figure out the frequncy. I like > counting the waves but you need to be able to access them to do this. > > If you determine that spindling beta is causing the problem, others on > the list will have good suggestions on how to fix it as well. > > > > > > > > > -- Extremely helpful! Many thanks! > > > > -- > > T. Lindsey, M.S.,L.M.F.T. > > Claremont, CA > > Santa Ana, CA > > 909-626-5313 > > > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > Sometimes these meds can give people a "buzz" of sinusoidal beta that > > > is at many sites. When the same EEG is at many sites, coherence will > > > be high. If sinusoidal beta from meds is what is happening, you can > > > see it in the raw > > > EEG. This kind of beta is shaped like alpha but is in the beta > > > frequency range, generally between 18 and 25 cycles per second. > > > > > > If you see this fast sinusoidal activity in the EEG, you can assume > > > that is due to meds. If, so, don't train it. > > > > > > Based on what you said about his symptoms, this child sounds like he > > > may have some anxiety or OCD features to what is being called ADHD. I > > > can't give training recommendations w/o a QEEG- I have used a Q's to > > > guide training since 1996 and I cannot work without one anymore. > > > > > > I can tell you that it is not uncommon to see an odd pattern in QEEG > > > maps when there are OCD symptoms. There is a pattern of activity over > > > many of the midline (Fz Cz Pz) sites. This can be in any band but it > > > is often in beta or slow alpha and it always includes Fz. In > adults it > > > is often a region of slow alpha at 7 and or 8 Hz at FZ. At the same > > > time, posterior alpha will be a faster, between 9 and 10. This > pattern > > > is common enough that when I see it, I ask if the person ever has > > > negative thoughts or feelings they can't get out of their mind. If > > > they say yes, I show them the pattern of odd midline activity in the > > > maps and they are impressed and have more faith that I can help them. > > > > > > Check out Fz, Cz, and Pz, and see about alpha speeds and also look at > > > the raw beta pattern. > > > > > > I hope this is helpful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 Just curious, what other meds.?lawson415 <lawson@...> wrote: Hi I am sorry, I made a mistake in my last post:Stimulants do not cause spindling beta- other meds do. If spindlingbeta is not from needs, you can train it down. Determine the frequncyand make a 3 Hz band with that in the middle and train it down (ofcourse this depends on the equipment you are using). If you can recordthe EEG and run it back, you can pause the playback and then you cansimply count the number of waves per second, if you know how manyseconds are in the window you are viewing. You can also calculate thepeak frequncy of beta and fast beta to figure out the frequncy. I likecounting the waves but you need to be able to access them to do this.If you determine that spindling beta is causing the problem, others onthe list will have good suggestions on how to fix it as well.> -- Extremely helpful! Many thanks!> > --> T. Lindsey, M.S.,L.M.F.T. > Claremont, CA > Santa Ana, CA > 909-626-5313 > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > > > > Hi > > > > Sometimes these meds can give people a "buzz" of sinusoidal beta that > > is at many sites. When the same EEG is at many sites, coherence will > > be high. If sinusoidal beta from meds is what is happening, you can > > see it in the raw > > EEG. This kind of beta is shaped like alpha but is in the beta > > frequency range, generally between 18 and 25 cycles per second. > > > > If you see this fast sinusoidal activity in the EEG, you can assume > > that is due to meds. If, so, don't train it. > > > > Based on what you said about his symptoms, this child sounds like he > > may have some anxiety or OCD features to what is being called ADHD. I > > can't give training recommendations w/o a QEEG- I have used a Q's to > > guide training since 1996 and I cannot work without one anymore. > > > > I can tell you that it is not uncommon to see an odd pattern in QEEG > > maps when there are OCD symptoms. There is a pattern of activity over > > many of the midline (Fz Cz Pz) sites. This can be in any band but it > > is often in beta or slow alpha and it always includes Fz. Inadults it > > is often a region of slow alpha at 7 and or 8 Hz at FZ. At the same > > time, posterior alpha will be a faster, between 9 and 10. Thispattern > > is common enough that when I see it, I ask if the person ever has > > negative thoughts or feelings they can't get out of their mind. If > > they say yes, I show them the pattern of odd midline activity in the > > maps and they are impressed and have more faith that I can help them. > > > > Check out Fz, Cz, and Pz, and see about alpha speeds and also look at > > the raw beta pattern. > > > > I hope this is helpful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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