Guest guest Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Steve, Fpo2 is the spot just under the right brow, towards the inside of the eye - Sebern Fisher and others have used this for calming and PTSD symptoms. Maybe it gets to the amygdala - that is all speculation. It is really an acupuncture point where you can feel a small indentation in the bone. Mershona Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Mershona: What did you mean by " fpo2 " ? Steve DC > Pete and everyone, I have been working with a 6 year old girl for awhile - > adopted, connects poorly with her adoptive family, very bright. Neglected and > multiple caregivers in the first year of life. I have had moderate success > with protocols on right side - t4, t4-p4, c4 in that these have been somewhat > calming. Oh yes, incessant nonsense chatter is an ongoing complaint. I looked > at her t4 and t3 separately and noted that her high beta on the right is at > least twice as high as on the left. I have shifted to t3-t4 montage, stepping > her down in frequency. Last week I went to 7 - 10 hz reward. She did this for > one half hour, feel asleep, and was calm when she left the office, however, > she did not feel well by the time she got home, had a massive headache with > restless night, per mom. She woke up feeling okay. Sounds like this was just too > low, but I would like any thoughts or feedback on this response. I went back > up this week in frequency at t3-t4. Have also done some fpo2 with her and she > likes this very much. Also, any thoughts on incessant chatter? > > Also Pete, I have had some subjective assessments where the tone categories > have the highest averages but the tone ranking is 0. Another example, one girl > got a disconnect average rate of 2.3 (her highest) and 0 on the tone ranking. > I'm not sure if I missed something about how to relate the category rankings > (disconnect, reversal, blocking) and the tone ranking. > > Thanks, Mershona Parshall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 What do you do there? Low Beta? > Steve, Fpo2 is the spot just under the right brow, towards the inside of the > eye - Sebern Fisher and others have used this for calming and PTSD symptoms. > Maybe it gets to the amygdala - that is all speculation. It is really an > acupuncture point where you can feel a small indentation in the bone. Mershona Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Depending on where you put your reference, the Fpo2 site would affect the orbito-frontal prefrontal cortex (the shelf that runs back from the forehead over the eye sockets), which is a major emotional balance and control area. The amygdala would communicate with this area, but the amygdala itself is invisible to EEG, because it has the "wrong" type of neurons in it. Pete Re: case question What do you do there? Low Beta?> Steve, Fpo2 is the spot just under the right brow, towards the inside of the > eye - Sebern Fisher and others have used this for calming and PTSD symptoms. > Maybe it gets to the amygdala - that is all speculation. It is really an > acupuncture point where you can feel a small indentation in the bone. Mershona Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 With T3/T4 training, it's important to remember that a reaction at a specific frequency doesn't necessarily mean that you need to turn around and go the other way. You are as likely to get an improvement by going down further as you are by going back up. This sounds like it may well have been a rebound effect. The Tone rating section on the subjective assessment is a new addition, and I'm not too impressed with it either. I'd focus more on the top box with the categories. Try taking a look at F4 and Fp2 and F8 and see if there are very high levels of slow activity. Sometimes squashing slower activity here (gently) will help with social control issues. However, it is also possible, if the disconnect is truly active that there is a lot of "pressure" behind her language. Pete case question Pete and everyone, I have been working with a 6 year old girl for awhile - adopted, connects poorly with her adoptive family, very bright. Neglected and multiple caregivers in the first year of life. I have had moderate success with protocols on right side - t4, t4-p4, c4 in that these have been somewhat calming. Oh yes, incessant nonsense chatter is an ongoing complaint. I looked at her t4 and t3 separately and noted that her high beta on the right is at least twice as high as on the left. I have shifted to t3-t4 montage, stepping her down in frequency. Last week I went to 7 - 10 hz reward. She did this for one half hour, feel asleep, and was calm when she left the office, however, she did not feel well by the time she got home, had a massive headache with restless night, per mom. She woke up feeling okay. Sounds like this was just too low, but I would like any thoughts or feedback on this response. I went back up this week in frequency at t3-t4. Have also done some fpo2 with her and she likes this very much. Also, any thoughts on incessant chatter? Also Pete, I have had some subjective assessments where the tone categories have the highest averages but the tone ranking is 0. Another example, one girl got a disconnect average rate of 2.3 (her highest) and 0 on the tone ranking. I'm not sure if I missed something about how to relate the category rankings (disconnect, reversal, blocking) and the tone ranking. Thanks, Mershona Parshall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Pete, Thanks, I will take a look at the f's - and I think I will try going lower too on t3-t4 - as I think about it I have her low on the right side- i.e., at 4 - 7 hz. I wonder if that can be a guide for t3-t4. Mershona Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Mershona, Let us know what you find out. Pete Re: case question Pete, Thanks, I will take a look at the f's - and I think I will try going lower too on t3-t4 - as I think about it I have her low on the right side- i.e., at 4 - 7 hz. I wonder if that can be a guide for t3-t4. Mershona Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Hi Mershona, I am working with a 6yr old foster child who sounds like your clients twin sibling. He was abused and neglected early on and is finally in a better environment. He has high amplitude Hibeta and Theta at T3-T4 bipolar placement. I also went low on the reward frequency, had results similar to what you mentioned in your post. I am now rewarding 8-11 with an inhibit 20-38, and 2.0-6.0. We are getting great results to include: less impulsivity, calmer, better sleep, less chatter and more compliance. Thought this might help. JoAnn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Thanks JoAnn for your input. How many sessions at t3-t4 have you done to get the positive results you shared? I know the parents would be glad to have the chatter reduced. I also have the mom doing home training with the brainmaster and see her once/week on the office. Mershona Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Stephan, FpO2 has been used to help with fear based anxiety and pain with good effect. Never start higher than 8-11 and be prepared to go much lower. Track responses very carefully and start out with only 1-3 minutes, then increase the time gradually when you are sure you have the right reward frequency. This can be a very sensitive spot and if you train too high for that individual brain you can increase fear and agitation. Training at FpO1 has been associated with negative effects, though some people have trained FpO1/FpO2, which can be difficult because the signal is so small. Joan E. Bullard, PhdMcLean, VAjbullardphd@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Thank you. Steve DC > Stephan, > > FpO2 has been used to help with fear based anxiety and pain with good effect. Never start higher than 8-11 and be prepared to go much lower. Track responses very carefully and start out with only 1-3 minutes, then increase the time gradually when you are sure you have the right reward frequency. This can be a very sensitive spot and if you train too high for that individual brain you can increase fear and agitation. Training at FpO1 has been associated with negative effects, though some people have trained FpO1/FpO2, which can be difficult because the signal is so small. > > > > > > Joan E. Bullard, Phd > McLean, VA > jbullardphd@y... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Mershona, I started to see positive results after about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Hi Mershona, Sorry...have a new laptop and the emails seem to fly off by themselves! Anyway, I started to see results with the foster child after the first session. I observe him in class after the training sessions, at a charter school. I am in close contact with his teacher and foster Mom, they both reported positive effects after the first several sessions. I train him once a week and do play therapy along with behavior modification. Another teacher who is under my supervision trains him twice a week, total of 3 times a week. Significant results presented around session 15, and we continue to train him during the summer months. Hopefully we will continue to see great improvement next school year. Good luck with your case....sounds like you are doing a great job! JoAnn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Joan, I'm assuming that you are using an A2 reference with the Fp02 protocol. I'd like to amend your message to state that I have personally found Fp01 (referenced either to F3 or F7) beta up and theta down in a (relatively) normal adult male can have a galvanizing effect on motivation (one of the functions of the left orbitofrontal cortex). The only negative I've experienced doing it has been that I never finish a session--end up pulling the leads off and going off to DO SOMETHING. Thanks, Pete Original message attached. Stephan, FpO2 has been used to help with fear based anxiety and pain with good effect. Never start higher than 8-11 and be prepared to go much lower. Track responses very carefully and start out with only 1-3 minutes, then increase the time gradually when you are sure you have the right reward frequency. This can be a very sensitive spot and if you train too high for that individual brain you can increase fear and agitation. Training at FpO1 has been associated with negative effects, though some people have trained FpO1/FpO2, which can be difficult because the signal is so small. Joan E. Bullard, PhdMcLean, VAjbullardphd@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Pete, How is your sleep after you do this supermotivation protocol? Rosemary Re: Re: Re: case question Joan,I'm assuming that you are using an A2 reference with the Fp02 protocol.I'd like to amend your message to state that I have personally found Fp01 (referenced either to F3 or F7) beta up and theta down in a (relatively) normal adult male can have a galvanizing effect on motivation (one of the functions of the left orbitofrontal cortex). The only negative I've experienced doing it has been that I never finish a session--end up pulling the leads off and going off to DO SOMETHING.Thanks,PeteOriginal message attached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Hi Pete, I really enjoyed your workshop this past weekend. @ reference: yes it would be A2 reference, A1 ground @FPO1--my comment was in using FPO1 as a single site. However, while beta up in frontal and prefrontal sites can be activiating I would throw a word of caution about this when working with bipolar patients as it can induce a manic state. Joan Bullard jbullardphd@... Van Deusen <pvdadp@...> wrote: Joan,I'm assuming that you are using an A2 reference with the Fp02 protocol.I'd like to amend your message to state that I have personally found Fp01 (referenced either to F3 or F7) beta up and theta down in a (relatively) normal adult male can have a galvanizing effect on motivation (one of the functions of the left orbitofrontal cortex). The only negative I've experienced doing it has been that I never finish a session--end up pulling the leads off and going off to DO SOMETHING.Thanks,PeteOriginal message attached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Joan, Thanks. I agree. As you saw this weekend, mania is not one of my top ten training issues. Pete Re: Re: Re: case question Hi Pete, I really enjoyed your workshop this past weekend. @ reference: yes it would be A2 reference, A1 ground @FPO1--my comment was in using FPO1 as a single site. However, while beta up in frontal and prefrontal sites can be activiating I would throw a word of caution about this when working with bipolar patients as it can induce a manic state. Joan Bullard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 Dear Joan, what kind of pain did you treat with FpO2 ? Was this a bipolar training? I am interested to test any protocol for treating chronic pain, especially fibromyalgia. Dieter Gohmann Pain Clinic Traunstein Germany Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Dieter, My personal journey started a year and a half ago. I've had fibromylagia for over twenty years due to injuries from a helicopter crash. I first experienced NFB during a workshop with the Othmers using neurocybernetics equipment. I had an immediate and wonderful response to T3/T4 training and have been hooked on NFB ever since. I am not cured but I have significantly improved. I don't think any one modality or aproach can solve chronic pain issues, but there are many promising therapies now available. For myself T3/T4 rewarding low at 6-9 hz was extremely helpful. Others in the field I have talked to indicate that some pain patients respond better to F3 or C3 rewarding Beta. That had an adverse effect on me. A problem with training low at T3-T4 over time is that it appears to decrease short term memory and I have had that experience with it. To counter that frontal training can be added. Others have reported that P3/P4 has been very beneficial in decreasing muscle tension. Currently I am combining supplements, arnica montana, with Alpa-Stim (this is not NFB) immediately following exercise with good effect. How long this will last I don't know but for now its beneficial. I think one important issue in using NFB is that the brain's response to RXs change and this has to be taken into account with treatment. Rxs may have to be reduced as the patient begins to show signs of being over medicated. This can be tricky with patients who are on multiple medications. NFB is also being reported as very beneficial with migraines and tension headaches. However, it is also worth noting that none of this has been research documented and is as such still experimental. Hope this is helpful. Joan Bullard, PhD Clinical Psychologist jbullardphd@... goehmi@... wrote: Dear Joan,what kind of pain did you treat with FpO2 ? Was this a bipolar training?I am interested to test any protocol for treating chronic pain, especially fibromyalgia.Dieter GohmannPain ClinicTraunstein Germany Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Dieter, I should also stipulate that anyone working with pain patients or others on medication need to have the prescribing physician on board to authorize any cchanges to medication. In the U.S. at least one could get sued for illegally practising medicine if they recommended to a patient that they decrease their medication.Joan E. Bullard, PhdMcLean, VAjbullardphd@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Dear Joan, thank you very much for your information. Just to make sure that I have understood everything right: T3/T4 rewarding 6-9 hz means bipolar training ? (or monopolar T3/A1 and T4/A2 treating both channels at the same time) Which part of Beta is rewarded at C3 and F3 by the Othmers ? I guess monopolar C3/A1 (or bipolar C3/C4?) Which Frequency ist trained on P3/P4 for reducing muscle tension ? Thank you again for your help !!! Dieter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Dear Joan, in our pain clinic at the General Hospital Traunstein our main interest is to reduce the pain medication of our chronic pain patients. We are a team of three physicians, one psychologist, several physiotherapists and one sporttherapist offering a behavioral oriented multimodal therapy but also invasive therapy for our pain patients. I try to introduce Neurofeedback into our multimodal therapy. We have two ProComp with Biograph and NeurocarPro available. I am very very grateful for any Neurofeedback protocol and especially personal experience of chronic pain patients with Neurofeedback. Best wishes Dieter Dr. med. Dieter Göhmann Anesthesiologist, Pain Therapist Klinikum Traunstein Abteilung f. Anästhesie und Schmerztherapie D-83278 Traunstein Germany Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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