Re: compare Brainmaster and Autogenics A620

January 25, 2003

BrainMaster has a page on their website comparing various types of EEG

equipment. That might answer some of your questions.

There was just a discussion on one of the lists recently and the consensus of

opinion is that there is NO real time equipment, that it is not possible, and

even the people who say they have " real time " do not.

compare Brainmaster and Autogenics A620

Can someone give me a rough functional comparison between Brainmaster

and some of the more popular clinical machines like Autogenics A620 ?

(Primary interest is in ADD/ADHD)

Big question -- Is Brainmaster real time?

Thanks

January 25, 2003

Thanks for such a prompt reply.

I went to their website but could not find a comparison of different

machines. Could you provide an addy?

Also, I would prefer a comparison from someone not affiliated with

the company, just in case there could be bias:-)

I tried to post my question about comparing BrainMaster to the more

popular clinical machines on a Neurofeedback list and the message

hasn't shown up. The moderator sells BrainMaster and has to approve

my message before it will post to the board:-O

I'm quite concerned that Brainmaster really isn't comparable to

something like the Autogenics A620.

Thanks again for your note.

> BrainMaster has a page on their website comparing various types of

EEG equipment. That might answer some of your questions.

>

> There was just a discussion on one of the lists recently and the

consensus of opinion is that there is NO real time equipment, that it

is not possible, and even the people who say they have " real time "

do not.

> compare Brainmaster and Autogenics A620

>

> Can someone give me a rough functional comparison between

Brainmaster

> and some of the more popular clinical machines like Autogenics

A620 ?

> (Primary interest is in ADD/ADHD)

>

> Big question -- Is Brainmaster real time?

>

> Thanks

>

January 26, 2003

The A620, unless the new version is finally actually out, is a 1-channel

DOS-based software machine. The BrainMaster is a 2-channel Windows-based

machine (though there are still some DOS'y elements to it). ProComp with

Biograph software is a 2-channel fully windows-based machine and software

package.

The A620 allows you to sample at 128 or 256 samples per second, but it only

reads up to 32 Hz, so it does offer higher resolution (at 256) but doesn't

really allow you to train in the higher frequencies where that resolution would

be useful. It also allows you to look at the signal either in Peak-to-Peak or

Root-Mean-Squared formats. The BMer samples at 128 and shows up to 40 Hz. The

ProComp Biograph samples at 256 and shows up to 60 Hz.

Sound feedback options are by far the best on the ProComp package (at about 3

times the price of the BrainMaster or equivalent to the price of the A620), okay

on the BrainMaster and pretty much limited to discreet reward sounds (beeps) on

the A620. Graphic feedback displays are also superior on the ProComp (though

that doesn't keep kids from getting bored with them), very good on the A620 and

passable on the BrainMaster.

The BrainMaster 2.0 software, whenever it comes out, will have improved sound

options and better visual feedback, but it still will sample at 128 (though the

signal is adjusted for higher frequencies).

Hope this is helpful. What other machines are you looking at?

Pete

compare Brainmaster and Autogenics A620

Can someone give me a rough functional comparison between Brainmaster

and some of the more popular clinical machines like Autogenics A620 ?

(Primary interest is in ADD/ADHD)

Big question -- Is Brainmaster real time?

Thanks

January 26, 2003

HI:

Here is the link to the brainmaster comparison:

http://www.brainmaster.com/productinfo/at1/comparison/comparison.html

Unfortunately there is no A620 comparison.

I think you will find, as you continue your search for equipment,

that what Rosemary says is correct. There is some degree of

salespersonship and hype for each brand of unit as you shop. This

makes things a bit more confusing. The A620's hype seems to focus

on " real time " .

The most telling point in all of this, as far as I am concered, is

that there continues to be no research indicating that any equipment

really works any better clinically than any other in this field.

Though it is good to discuss and question equipment, I am sure that

you are aware that there is so much beyond just equipment in this

field. That includes knowing the limitations of whatever equipment

you use, what kind of assessment you do, what the family or

situational factors in the client's life are(how unrelenting is

their stress), what kind of skills/strategies that you teach along

side neurofeedback, and and what non-specific factors are enlisted

to your advantage to motivate and encourage.

Anyway..

The biggest deficit I can see with the Brainmaster and the A620 is

that they both sample 128 times a second. This limits their ability

to " see " from about 38-40 cps up. This includes some muscle artifact

and other kinds of electrical interference. The limitation is shared

by many clinical machines as indicated on the brainmaster site. I

think only the procomp+ and the Neurocypernetics machines sample

faster.

Dave

> > BrainMaster has a page on their website comparing various types

of

> EEG equipment. That might answer some of your questions.

> >

> > There was just a discussion on one of the lists recently and the

> consensus of opinion is that there is NO real time equipment, that

it

> is not possible, and even the people who say they have " real

time "

> do not.

> > compare Brainmaster and Autogenics A620

> >

> > Can someone give me a rough functional comparison between

> Brainmaster

> > and some of the more popular clinical machines like Autogenics

> A620 ?

> > (Primary interest is in ADD/ADHD)

> >

> > Big question -- Is Brainmaster real time?

> >

> > Thanks

> >

January 26, 2003

Dear EEG Friends:

Yesterday I posted this message, because a friend from Europe was very

upset. Some Neurofeedback " VIP " lady from there told him , that the only

Hardware

and Software that works in real time was the one of M.Ayers from

Neuropathways.

I told him that all small EEG devices were working oK on real time ( according

of what I heard this 2 years of reading mails in many lists and had undergone

this long ping pongs of DSP, FFT and JTFA, Gabor and NLD.............etc,ect)

like

Brainmaster,Procomp, Waverider, Lexicor, capscan,Neurocybernetics (sorry if I

forget some other device) etc.So I asked our dear friend the VIP in QEEG world

Jay Gunkellman, and told him " I think you words will help me in this

issue to help me help him " . He had have not answered yet! So as my friend is

very discouraged, because was going to work with brain damaged people, stroke

and Coma Patients also! with the Brainmaster, and now think this wont work!!!

Well It Works for me in Stroke, Coma II and Locked in Sydme!

I will appreciate very much your help in this issue of REAL TIME .

Thanks in advance!!

PS: Jay!!! Are you in vacations?

Here we are in full summer hollidays.

Caiooo

compare Brainmaster and Autogenics A620

> >

> > Can someone give me a rough functional comparison between

> Brainmaster

> > and some of the more popular clinical machines like Autogenics

> A620 ?

> > (Primary interest is in ADD/ADHD)

> >

> > Big question -- Is Brainmaster real time?

> >

> > Thanks

> >

January 26, 2003

o,

Will you tell us a bit about how you plan your neurofeedback treatment

approach for the groups you mention below.

Thanks,

Steve

compare Brainmaster and Autogenics A620

> > >

> > > Can someone give me a rough functional comparison between

> > Brainmaster

> > > and some of the more popular clinical machines like Autogenics

> > A620 ?

> > > (Primary interest is in ADD/ADHD)

> > >

> > > Big question -- Is Brainmaster real time?

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > >

January 26, 2003

Sorry Steve ,

I didnt catch your question:(My Spanglish)

You say: how you plan your neurofeedback treatment

approach for the groups you mention below.

I dont undertand " the groups " , wich groups?

And the Treatment for what?

You mean: Stroke, Coma II and Locked in Syndme ?

Please tell me , I will answer you.

But I really was looking for some info in THE REAL TIME ISSUE.

May be today is sunday are we are the only Cyber Suday guys here!!

Best

compare Brainmaster and Autogenics A620

> > >

> > > Can someone give me a rough functional comparison between

> > Brainmaster

> > > and some of the more popular clinical machines like Autogenics

> > A620 ?

> > > (Primary interest is in ADD/ADHD)

> > >

> > > Big question -- Is Brainmaster real time?

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > >

January 26, 2003

,

You mention treating Stroke, Coma II and Locked in Syndrome. How do you

decide how to go about it, which frequencies and locations to train?

Thanks,

Steve

compare Brainmaster and Autogenics

A620

> > > >

> > > > Can someone give me a rough functional comparison between

> > > Brainmaster

> > > > and some of the more popular clinical machines like Autogenics

> > > A620 ?

> > > > (Primary interest is in ADD/ADHD)

> > > >

> > > > Big question -- Is Brainmaster real time?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks

> > > >

January 26, 2003

compare Brainmaster and Autogenics

A620

> > > >

> > > > Can someone give me a rough functional comparison between

> > > Brainmaster

> > > > and some of the more popular clinical machines like Autogenics

> > > A620 ?

> > > > (Primary interest is in ADD/ADHD)

> > > >

> > > > Big question -- Is Brainmaster real time?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks

> > > >

January 26, 2003

Dear :

1-First we do a QEEG with the QeegDataSwitch.We studied the Brain Topos and

see what we got.Also compare with a MRI or a TAC of Both.

2- Depends on the cause of the Coma II the protocol, as you now the more

famous one is the M.Ayers. C3T3/g/C4T4 Theta down 4 to 7 . She Said not to

reinforce Beta , because it will make Theta go down.

First I have done this, then I try to reinforce SMR (as a Seizure Protection),

because always in this cases there is the issue of convulsive episodes and see

that Theta was not going up if we use it so we continued with SMR Up and Theta

Down.

We AVS 13.33 hz very carefully looking for pre seizures behavior in the raw

EEG. While doing it and we builted a device that are with sunglasses with 2

green leads each one like the ones that had the Keyboards, so as we use the

Reward Sound connected to the leads glows light green, at the same time, this

idea we took From and Abarbanel Book in the page for coma II treatments.

May be latter if moves to COMA I level we change to P3 P4. We use to studied

here the P 300 wave, in the severe COMAS = Hypoxic ones. The TBI COMA are also

severe,but is not the same. If you studied the difference,you will see that the

lack of oxygen destroy specially the PUTAMEN AND GLOBUS PALLIDUS and CAUDATE

NUCLEI and the CEREBELLUM. MAY HIT BADLY THE DORSAL BRAINSTEM, if I see THIS

Dorsal damage of Brainstem is very very severe. Ventral Damage of BRAINSTEM may

have better future. But Be careful with Neurologist , because if they hear the

word Brainstem compromise = NO SOLUTION. NEVER. And this is not true. With Coma

and TBI or hemorrhagic cause the local factor may be better advantage fro the

patient. (I don't remember who said this : If they give you to choose were to

receive a hit with the hammer, chose the right brain, then if they give to

choose again, Frontal, Midline or Back, Chose frontal!!!)

With Stroke as said, we look for the lows frequency ,specially in the

site of the stroke, or the TBI place, Meant neuronantomical precision

There we squash low frequencies. Theta or Delta.

It depends on the Qeeg we got with the QDS. AS you know one of the best

advantages we have with the QDS is that we can to do a QEEG very frecuently

because is not as expensive as a BIG QEEG.So we can do once a day or once a

week the QEEG, With the QDS to make a fallow up of the Brain changes.

For QDS info :

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/2133/QeegDataSwitch.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/2133/QEEG.htm

For Coma refer to this place, is in spanci but some in english and good links

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/2133/index.html

Warm regards

I

f you want to see our files of COMA and Locked in of QDS list just asked ,now

is open for every one who mau suscribe. There we have cases, Locked in , QEEG

maps, and Clinicla History.

Warm regards

compare Brainmaster and Autogenics

A620

> > > >

> > > > Can someone give me a rough functional comparison between

> > > Brainmaster

> > > > and some of the more popular clinical machines like Autogenics

> > > A620 ?

> > > > (Primary interest is in ADD/ADHD)

> > > >

> > > > Big question -- Is Brainmaster real time?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks

> > > >

January 27, 2003

Dear Pete,

Thanks for your answer.

Rally I have not this doubts. I am sure there is this " giant marketing battle " .

This I asked for a friend in Europe that was very sorry when he was told by a

VIP in NFK from there that he could not treat neurological issues with the

Brainmaster. The only one that works was the Neuropathways...

I told him about all my experiences in Coma and Locked in Syndrome and Stroke

also.

But you know I have no anti-VIP power. So I posted so I can have some VIP

answers that may calm him down with this doubts.

I told to all, that is ridiculous.

IN the time of Sterman discovery with CATs and SMR issues, they treat

successfully Epileptic Disorders, then they saw that this epileptics that had

Learning disorders and conduct disorders also were healed with NFK!!! So they

begun to treat ADD ADHD and ODD and LD. So think for a minute in the Hardware

and the software of that time.

Before PC XT ! The Apollo 11 had a CPU with ONE MB of RAM!!! and they did it!

So now we had Super Faster Computers and Software. So I have no doubts at all

(except for the Standalone NFK units, this Don't know if they work or not).

But It seems I was not very convincing and my friend still doubt!

So know I have you VIP message!!!

Thanks a lot for your answer!

I will mail it to him.

Re: compare Brainmaster and Autogenics A620

HI Pete

This please asnwer backchannell!!

Do you mean we are not working in real time feedback with Brainm????

AUCH!!!!!

Best !!!

----- Original Message

January 27, 2003

To add my 2cents to this discussion:

Margaret Ayers is adamant that without realtime feedback (which ONLY her

hardware and software provide according to her), you cannot efficiently train

things like coma, etc.

Dr. Rocatti has successfully (and pretty quickly) gotten results with coma

patients using a lowly BrainMaster which doesn't give " real-time " feedback--at

least as Margaret defines it.

The longer you hang out on the lists or go to workshops, the more you'll hear

folks arguing " scientifically " about this issue. I've seen Hershel Toomim,

among others, set forth the minimum times involved in visual information

reaching the eyes and processing through the brain to the point where is is

recognized, and, to the best of my recollection, the number was around 200 to

400 milliseconds. Unless one has an instantaneous screen refresh rate, you're

likely to be getting the information about that fast, no matter HOW fast the

hardware gets the data. Machines that sample anywhere from 128 to 1024 times

per second still can't display the results that fast.

There are even some people who say that slowing feedback down a bit is more

useful for training! And they make pretty convincing arguments for a

non-engineer like myself.

So Dave's point is the winner from my viewpoint. Until someone actually

demonstrates a solid research design that shows that they are getting better or

faster results with faster or slower feedback, this remains just another of

those moot neurofeedback arguments. Everything that's actually been documented

seems to work about the same, and all the rest is marketing.

Pete

Re: compare Brainmaster and Autogenics A620

HI:

Here is the link to the brainmaster comparison:

http://www.brainmaster.com/productinfo/at1/comparison/comparison.html

Unfortunately there is no A620 comparison.

I think you will find, as you continue your search for equipment,

that what Rosemary says is correct. There is some degree of

salespersonship and hype for each brand of unit as you shop. This

makes things a bit more confusing. The A620's hype seems to focus

on " real time " .

The most telling point in all of this, as far as I am concered, is

that there continues to be no research indicating that any equipment

really works any better clinically than any other in this field.

Though it is good to discuss and question equipment, I am sure that

you are aware that there is so much beyond just equipment in this

field. That includes knowing the limitations of whatever equipment

you use, what kind of assessment you do, what the family or

situational factors in the client's life are(how unrelenting is

their stress), what kind of skills/strategies that you teach along

side neurofeedback, and and what non-specific factors are enlisted

to your advantage to motivate and encourage.

Anyway..

The biggest deficit I can see with the Brainmaster and the A620 is

that they both sample 128 times a second. This limits their ability

to " see " from about 38-40 cps up. This includes some muscle artifact

and other kinds of electrical interference. The limitation is shared

by many clinical machines as indicated on the brainmaster site. I

think only the procomp+ and the Neurocypernetics machines sample

faster.

January 27, 2003

,

Tell your friend that if he never tries to do the things that " experts " tell him

cannot work, he should forget about neurofeedback altogether. Many

neurologists, psychiatrists, psychologists and others are quite clear that it

does not and cannot work. If we don't try the things we have a chance to try,

just because someone else has a negative opinion of them, how boring and empty

our lives will be!!

Pete

p.s.

I don't believe Jay is on this list.

Re: Re: compare Brainmaster and Autogenics A620