J&J equiipment

[Guest guest]

Thanks to for sending a link to the J & J page

(http://www.jjengineering.com/C2.htm).

The I-330-C2 appears to have a wide range of options, including heart-rate

variability, temperature, skin conductance and 2 channels of EEG,and it support

USB ports or Com ports, depending on the operating system. The price, however,

is $2,795, not $1,500, for any unit that does 2 channels of EEG.

It remains to be seen whether their EEG software is actually functioning. It

has been listed for some time, and may have said he used it recently,

but the last I heard it was still in the works.

Pete

[Guest guest]

Perhaps the $1500 price mentioned was in reference to the ProComp2,

the new miniature version of the ProComp+.

The ProComp2 is a two-channel encoder that has the capability of

using any combination of any two of the ProComp+ sensors(including

two EEG)and will work with the full BioGraph software. It includes

one built-in channel of EEG, meaning it requires only an EEG lead for

that channel. Only current owners of ProComp+ are eligible to

purchase the ProComp2.

For more information contact TTL 1-800-361-3651

www.thoughttechnology.com

> Thanks to for sending a link to the J & J page

(http://www.jjengineering.com/C2.htm).

>

> The I-330-C2 appears to have a wide range of options, including

heart-rate variability, temperature, skin conductance and 2 channels

of EEG,and it support USB ports or Com ports, depending on the

operating system. The price, however, is $2,795, not $1,500, for any

unit that does 2 channels of EEG.

>

> It remains to be seen whether their EEG software is actually

functioning. It has been listed for some time, and may have

said he used it recently, but the last I heard it was still in the

works.

>

> Pete

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Pete et al,

I flew down to visit with Jan today and got the " hot off the press scoop on the

C2 J 7 J system. Please see my attachment for details. Rosemary MacGregor

J & J equiipment

Thanks to for sending a link to the J & J page

(http://www.jjengineering.com/C2.htm)

The I-330-C2 appears to have a wide range of options, including heart-rate

variability, temperature, skin conductance and 2 channels of EEG,and it support

USB ports or Com ports, depending on the operating system. The price, however,

is $2,795, not $1,500, for any unit that does 2 channels of EEG.

It remains to be seen whether their EEG software is actually functioning. It

has been listed for some time, and may have said he used it recently,

but the last I heard it was still in the works.

Pete

[Guest guest]

Rosemary

Attachments won't come through since the virus scare a few weeks (months)

ago. You will need to back line it, or copy to body of an email. I'd like to

see it also.

Thanks,

Rosemary

J & J equiipment

Thanks to for sending a link to the J & J page

(http://www.jjengineering.com/C2.htm)

The I-330-C2 appears to have a wide range of options, including heart-rate

variability, temperature, skin conductance and 2 channels of EEG,and it support

USB ports or Com ports, depending on the operating system. The price, however,

is $2,795, not $1,500, for any unit that does 2 channels of EEG.

It remains to be seen whether their EEG software is actually functioning.

It has been listed for some time, and may have said he used it recently,

but the last I heard it was still in the works.

Pete

[Guest guest]

How do I do that. I have it as a word document. RosemaryFrom: Rosemary Herron

Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 6:46 PM

Subject: Re: J & J equiipment

Rosemary

Attachments won't come through since the virus scare a few weeks

(months) ago. You will need to back line it, or copy to body of an email. I'd

like to see it also.

Thanks,

Rosemary

J & J equiipment

Thanks to for sending a link to the J & J page

(http://www.jjengineering.com/C2.htm)

The I-330-C2 appears to have a wide range of options, including heart-rate

variability, temperature, skin conductance and 2 channels of EEG,and it support

USB ports or Com ports, depending on the operating system. The price, however,

is $2,795, not $1,500, for any unit that does 2 channels of EEG.

It remains to be seen whether their EEG software is actually functioning.

It has been listed for some time, and may have said he used it recently,

but the last I heard it was still in the works.

Pete

[Guest guest]

I did my original biofeedback training on J & J instruments in 1985 (M-

57, etc) and have used them for many years. A few years ago I decided

to purchase a C-2 system, with hopes of getting some neurofeedback

applications not readily available with Neurocybernetics equipment. I

was even told that alpha asymmetry training would be available when

brain applications arrived.

The system was incomplete, initially without even any sound feedback.

DEspite the fact that their web site promised that brain wave

applications would soon be available, I have gone through a

frustrating period of MANY months waiting for upgrades to make the

system fully functional. They never keep the user / potential buyer

fully informed of the status of system development on their web site.

There is basically no Help file / documentation with the newly

arrived brain application. THere is a brain game in the menu and one

has no idea what it is supposed to do .

The ear clips included with the system are cheap and cumbersome to

use. The respiratory application uses an elastic transducer attached

in a cheap way to a long piece of Velcro.

I really do not understand. In my mind J & J is a mixed bag of really

cool biofeedback equipment (I think EMG is really their forte, and

the HRV/RSA application is good) and poor communication, NON

intuitive software applications, web site claims that have been very

misleading, and apparent lack of concern for a user's frustration

over product delays and improperly working applications, particularly

SOUND.

I hate to make my initial contribution to this list a complaint, but

I have seen no forum for discussion of J & J products , and I cannot

believe that I am the only one who has been frustrated dealing with

them.

Joe Duba, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Rosemary,

Send it as an attachment to me (back-channel), if it's larger than a page or so,

and I'll load it into the files section. If it's shorter, simply select the

document (open it and Select All in the Edit menu), then copy it and paste it

into an open e-mail. You'll lose any formatting, but the info will be there.

Pete

J & J equiipment

Thanks to for sending a link to the J & J page

(http://www.jjengineering.com/C2.htm)

The I-330-C2 appears to have a wide range of options, including

heart-rate variability, temperature, skin conductance and 2 channels of EEG,and

it support USB ports or Com ports, depending on the operating system. The

price, however, is $2,795, not $1,500, for any unit that does 2 channels of EEG.

It remains to be seen whether their EEG software is actually

functioning. It has been listed for some time, and may have said he

used it recently, but the last I heard it was still in the works.

Pete

[Guest guest]

Joe,

Thanks for sharing this. I don't believe that honest information (even with an

undercurrent of frustration) is negative. It can certainly be useful. I knew I

had heard of others who had this kind of experience with the EEG software, but

you are the first I recall with concerns about the peripheral applications. The

unit I saw at Winter Brain last year was fabulously easy to use and seemed very

solid in those areas.

User support is a critical issue, and it has always been one of the greatest

strengths of BrainMaster.

I had an experience with ProComp (Though Technology) when I first purchased my

unit. I wrote to the website tech support, called the phone number (which

no-one ever answered, so I left messages) and never got even a response to any

of my multiple attempts. The documentation for the hardware and software seemed

incomplete to me, and the complete (it seemed to me) disinterest in me once I

had purchased the equipment (other than to send multiple messages about their

training workshops) turned me off on that platform.

I'd like to suggest that one solid function for this list would be for us to

create a file of user comments on the various training platforms and software

packages (even if the N is fairly small). This could be invaluable to anyone

entering the field and trying to figure out equipment.

Pete

Re: J & J equiipment

I did my original biofeedback training on J & J instruments in 1985 (M-

57, etc) and have used them for many years. A few years ago I decided

to purchase a C-2 system, with hopes of getting some neurofeedback

applications not readily available with Neurocybernetics equipment. I

was even told that alpha asymmetry training would be available when

brain applications arrived.

The system was incomplete, initially without even any sound feedback.

DEspite the fact that their web site promised that brain wave

applications would soon be available, I have gone through a

frustrating period of MANY months waiting for upgrades to make the

system fully functional. They never keep the user / potential buyer

fully informed of the status of system development on their web site.

There is basically no Help file / documentation with the newly

arrived brain application. THere is a brain game in the menu and one

has no idea what it is supposed to do .

The ear clips included with the system are cheap and cumbersome to

use. The respiratory application uses an elastic transducer attached

in a cheap way to a long piece of Velcro.

I really do not understand. In my mind J & J is a mixed bag of really

cool biofeedback equipment (I think EMG is really their forte, and

the HRV/RSA application is good) and poor communication, NON

intuitive software applications, web site claims that have been very

misleading, and apparent lack of concern for a user's frustration

over product delays and improperly working applications, particularly

SOUND.

I hate to make my initial contribution to this list a complaint, but

I have seen no forum for discussion of J & J products , and I cannot

believe that I am the only one who has been frustrated dealing with

them.

Joe Duba, M.D.

[Guest guest]

At 07:40 PM 11/1/2002 -0800, you wrote:

>How do I do that. I have it as a word document.

It sort of depends on how long the document is and how heavily formatted it

is. If it is a page you can try opening it and then doing

Ctrl-a (to select all the text) and then

Ctrl-c to copy it all to the clipboard. Then open the email you want to

send, click in the message area and

Ctrl-v to paste the copied text into the message..

See how it looks in the message. If it is pretty readable you could send

it. If it looks a mess then please don't.

Another option:

If Pete is willing, you could send him the doc as an attachment and he

could upload it into the files area of this forum. We all should be able

to look at it then in the same way we can get the assessment macros.

I am glad for the no attachments option to keep the viruses out even though

it is extra trouble in cases like this.

Bob Roos

[Guest guest]

Bob,

Thanks for the detailed instructions. It worked. I love to keep learning how to

use this damn windows. I appreciate your good instructions. Rosemary

Re: J & J equiipment

At 07:40 PM 11/1/2002 -0800, you wrote:

>How do I do that. I have it as a word document.

It sort of depends on how long the document is and how heavily formatted it

is. If it is a page you can try opening it and then doing

Ctrl-a (to select all the text) and then

Ctrl-c to copy it all to the clipboard. Then open the email you want to

send, click in the message area and

Ctrl-v to paste the copied text into the message..

See how it looks in the message. If it is pretty readable you could send

it. If it looks a mess then please don't.

Another option:

If Pete is willing, you could send him the doc as an attachment and he

could upload it into the files area of this forum. We all should be able

to look at it then in the same way we can get the assessment macros.

I am glad for the no attachments option to keep the viruses out even though

it is extra trouble in cases like this.

Bob Roos

[Guest guest]

Dr. Duba,

J & J has certainly gone thru some ups and downs over the years. I bought some

of my first equipment form them back in the early 80's. It was pretty advanced

then.

I agree with you about the frustrations of not know when or having in hand the

new EEG software. I have been in contact with Jan Hoover monthly and it has been

frustrating waiting for what I know is really superior equipment. I have been

impressed with Jan's thoughtfulness in producing this equipment and with the

incredible difficulty in hardware issues that he has encountered.. He has

brought computer people from Russia to work exclusively on this eeg project. He

is always developing new ideas and is very open to consultations. I think you

will be happy with this product once you have it in hand and see how elegant and

thoughtful it is. Think of Jan as a gentle soul and learned engineer who has

dedicated his life to biofeedback.

There is no other product out there that is coordinating HRV and EEG and

displays all the other modalities simultaneously. Within the year Jan will be

coming out with other combinations that will make his machine a very superior

training device. Sometimes we just need to be patient to let these genius do

their work in their own quiet ways.

Respectfully,

Rosemary MacGregor

Re: J & J equiipment

I did my original biofeedback training on J & J instruments in 1985 (M-

57, etc) and have used them for many years. A few years ago I decided

to purchase a C-2 system, with hopes of getting some neurofeedback

applications not readily available with Neurocybernetics equipment. I

was even told that alpha asymmetry training would be available when

brain applications arrived.

The system was incomplete, initially without even any sound feedback.

DEspite the fact that their web site promised that brain wave

applications would soon be available, I have gone through a

frustrating period of MANY months waiting for upgrades to make the

system fully functional. They never keep the user / potential buyer

fully informed of the status of system development on their web site.

There is basically no Help file / documentation with the newly

arrived brain application. THere is a brain game in the menu and one

has no idea what it is supposed to do .

The ear clips included with the system are cheap and cumbersome to

use. The respiratory application uses an elastic transducer attached

in a cheap way to a long piece of Velcro.

I really do not understand. In my mind J & J is a mixed bag of really

cool biofeedback equipment (I think EMG is really their forte, and

the HRV/RSA application is good) and poor communication, NON

intuitive software applications, web site claims that have been very

misleading, and apparent lack of concern for a user's frustration

over product delays and improperly working applications, particularly

SOUND.

I hate to make my initial contribution to this list a complaint, but

I have seen no forum for discussion of J & J products , and I cannot

believe that I am the only one who has been frustrated dealing with

them.

Joe Duba, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Rosemary MacGregor wrote: " There is no other product out there that is

coordinating HRV and EEG and displays all the other modalities simultaneously.

Within the year Jan will be coming out with other combinations that will make

his machine a very superior training device. "

Could you explain a little more as to how the J & J " coordinates HRV and EEG and

displays all the other modalities simultaneiously. " What do you see as the

advantage of simultaneous HRV and EEG displays? Also, are the EEG displays now

up and running on their equipment? What are the other combinations they're

developing? Thanks.....

Fred

Re: J & J equiipment

I did my original biofeedback training on J & J instruments in 1985 (M-

57, etc) and have used them for many years. A few years ago I decided

to purchase a C-2 system, with hopes of getting some neurofeedback

applications not readily available with Neurocybernetics equipment. I

was even told that alpha asymmetry training would be available when

brain applications arrived.

The system was incomplete, initially without even any sound feedback.

DEspite the fact that their web site promised that brain wave

applications would soon be available, I have gone through a

frustrating period of MANY months waiting for upgrades to make the

system fully functional. They never keep the user / potential buyer

fully informed of the status of system development on their web site.

There is basically no Help file / documentation with the newly

arrived brain application. THere is a brain game in the menu and one

has no idea what it is supposed to do .

The ear clips included with the system are cheap and cumbersome to

use. The respiratory application uses an elastic transducer attached

in a cheap way to a long piece of Velcro.

I really do not understand. In my mind J & J is a mixed bag of really

cool biofeedback equipment (I think EMG is really their forte, and

the HRV/RSA application is good) and poor communication, NON

intuitive software applications, web site claims that have been very

misleading, and apparent lack of concern for a user's frustration

over product delays and improperly working applications, particularly

SOUND.

I hate to make my initial contribution to this list a complaint, but

I have seen no forum for discussion of J & J products , and I cannot

believe that I am the only one who has been frustrated dealing with

them.

Joe Duba, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Good idea guys,

A reference area where we could browse through equipment options and see the

experiences that other may have already had with such, would be a great asset.

We may not be in the market today but you certainly never know what tomorrow

could bring. As the evolution of this field progresses I feel that keeping a

collection of stats along the way would be a good thing to look back on in years

to come, if for no other reason just to see how the NF has developed.

Re: J & J equiipment

I did my original biofeedback training on J & J instruments in 1985 (M-

57, etc) and have used them for many years. A few years ago I decided

to purchase a C-2 system, with hopes of getting some neurofeedback

applications not readily available with Neurocybernetics equipment. I

was even told that alpha asymmetry training would be available when

brain applications arrived.

The system was incomplete, initially without even any sound feedback.

DEspite the fact that their web site promised that brain wave

applications would soon be available, I have gone through a

frustrating period of MANY months waiting for upgrades to make the

system fully functional. They never keep the user / potential buyer

fully informed of the status of system development on their web site.

There is basically no Help file / documentation with the newly

arrived brain application. THere is a brain game in the menu and one

has no idea what it is supposed to do .

The ear clips included with the system are cheap and cumbersome to

use. The respiratory application uses an elastic transducer attached

in a cheap way to a long piece of Velcro.

I really do not understand. In my mind J & J is a mixed bag of really

cool biofeedback equipment (I think EMG is really their forte, and

the HRV/RSA application is good) and poor communication, NON

intuitive software applications, web site claims that have been very

misleading, and apparent lack of concern for a user's frustration

over product delays and improperly working applications, particularly

SOUND.

I hate to make my initial contribution to this list a complaint, but

I have seen no forum for discussion of J & J products , and I cannot

believe that I am the only one who has been frustrated dealing with

them.

Joe Duba, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Hi Fred,

I have been in the field of Biofeedback and NF for over 20 years. Having

taught the peripheral modalities for many years as a means of self regulation, I

am so thrilled to find a machine that co-ordinates peripheral with the brain.

We are not just a brain and we are not just a body. Interestingly we can learn

one modality and still not be relaxed in another, so it is important to have it

all go together. (like having a type A brain and Type B body or the reverse)

HRV has become in the last few years one of the primary tools to measure heart

health and flexibility. ( I will copy separately an article on HRV)

I have been teaching proper breathing for over 20 years as well and feel it is

probably the most important key to good health. I think it is first thing we

should be teaching our clients. Blood CO2 level is major factor controlling

brain and cardiac blood flow. I really don't want to write an essay on this. (

I did give a presentation at SNR 2 years ago) There is so much to say. But,

being able to do EEG and see the correlation between brain blood flow as the

result of proper breathing will improve our client's results with NF. So will

co-ordinating the other modalities. I teach breathing, muscle relaxation and

hand temperature training to nearly all my clients. If I see high Beta with T4

and T3 all I have to do is remind the client to deep breathe and it goes away.

It is not really a brain issue, but usually a jaw clenching issue.

Jan asked me to not mention the other new items until they were in Beta

testing and we had worked out the bugs.

Rosemary MacGregor wrote: " There is no other product out there that is

coordinating HRV and EEG and displays all the other modalities simultaneously.

Within the year Jan will be coming out with other combinations that will make

his machine a very superior training device. "

Could you explain a little more as to how the J & J " coordinates HRV and EEG and

displays all the other modalities simultaneiously. " What do you see as the

advantage of simultaneous HRV and EEG displays? Also, are the EEG displays now

up and running on their equipment? What are the other combinations they're

developing? Thanks.....

Fred

Re: J & J equiipment

I did my original biofeedback training on J & J instruments in 1985 (M-

57, etc) and have used them for many years. A few years ago I decided

to purchase a C-2 system, with hopes of getting some neurofeedback

applications not readily available with Neurocybernetics equipment. I

was even told that alpha asymmetry training would be available when

brain applications arrived.

The system was incomplete, initially without even any sound feedback.

DEspite the fact that their web site promised that brain wave

applications would soon be available, I have gone through a

frustrating period of MANY months waiting for upgrades to make the

system fully functional. They never keep the user / potential buyer

fully informed of the status of system development on their web site.

There is basically no Help file / documentation with the newly

arrived brain application. THere is a brain game in the menu and one

has no idea what it is supposed to do .

The ear clips included with the system are cheap and cumbersome to

use. The respiratory application uses an elastic transducer attached

in a cheap way to a long piece of Velcro.

I really do not understand. In my mind J & J is a mixed bag of really

cool biofeedback equipment (I think EMG is really their forte, and

the HRV/RSA application is good) and poor communication, NON

intuitive software applications, web site claims that have been very

misleading, and apparent lack of concern for a user's frustration

over product delays and improperly working applications, particularly

SOUND.

I hate to make my initial contribution to this list a complaint, but

I have seen no forum for discussion of J & J products , and I cannot

believe that I am the only one who has been frustrated dealing with

them.

Joe Duba, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Rosemary:

Thanks for you reply. I guess my question is not so much about whether training

in modalities other than EEG is useful, but one of whether the advantage of

having all of these modalities on one screen is worth the additional price of

new equipment.

I also make extensive use of Heart Rate Variability and Capnometry Biofeedback

in my practice, usually combining them with neurofeedback training of one

variety or the other. I could see how it might be sometimes useful to monitor

the VLF range in the spectral power display for heart rate variability while

doing alpha training. However, I'm not sure how it would be useful to do

RSA/Baroreflex breathing training while simultaneously monitoring brainwaves and

needing both displays on the screen. One could just use an audio pacing CD that

would play the best breathing rate for producing the best resonant frequency for

that individual while monitoring EEG's, which would be much cheaper. I actually

use this method for monitoring end-tidal CO2 levels while teaching

RSA/Baroreflex breathing to make sure that the client isn't breathing too deeply

during the breathing exercise.

I could maybe see how it might be useful to have a capnometer integrated with

neurofeedback in order to monitor the end-tidal CO2 levels, especially since I

primarily focus on reducing theta activity in NF.

But, in general, I'm not sure about why one would need a new biofeedback unit

that integrates a lot of different modalities if one already has the capacity to

train these modalities separately. The reason I'm raising this issue is that I

may have some big blind spots here......and I've got to admit that the new J & J

unit is a tempting new toy.

Fred

Re: J & J equiipment

I did my original biofeedback training on J & J instruments in 1985 (M-

57, etc) and have used them for many years. A few years ago I decided

to purchase a C-2 system, with hopes of getting some neurofeedback

applications not readily available with Neurocybernetics equipment. I

was even told that alpha asymmetry training would be available when

brain applications arrived.

The system was incomplete, initially without even any sound feedback.

DEspite the fact that their web site promised that brain wave

applications would soon be available, I have gone through a

frustrating period of MANY months waiting for upgrades to make the

system fully functional. They never keep the user / potential buyer

fully informed of the status of system development on their web site.

There is basically no Help file / documentation with the newly

arrived brain application. THere is a brain game in the menu and one

has no idea what it is supposed to do .

The ear clips included with the system are cheap and cumbersome to

use. The respiratory application uses an elastic transducer attached

in a cheap way to a long piece of Velcro.

I really do not understand. In my mind J & J is a mixed bag of really

cool biofeedback equipment (I think EMG is really their forte, and

the HRV/RSA application is good) and poor communication, NON

intuitive software applications, web site claims that have been very

misleading, and apparent lack of concern for a user's frustration

over product delays and improperly working applications, particularly

SOUND.

I hate to make my initial contribution to this list a complaint, but

I have seen no forum for discussion of J & J products , and I cannot

believe that I am the only one who has been frustrated dealing with

them.

Joe Duba, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Rosemary,

Haven't the ProComp/Biograph, Bio-Integrator, F-1000 and WaveRider been

integrating peripheral and EEG biofeedback for years? I'm not sure what the

difference is with the new J & J.

Pete

Re: J & J equiipment

I did my original biofeedback training on J & J instruments in 1985 (M-

57, etc) and have used them for many years. A few years ago I decided

to purchase a C-2 system, with hopes of getting some neurofeedback

applications not readily available with Neurocybernetics equipment. I

was even told that alpha asymmetry training would be available when

brain applications arrived.

The system was incomplete, initially without even any sound feedback.

DEspite the fact that their web site promised that brain wave

applications would soon be available, I have gone through a

frustrating period of MANY months waiting for upgrades to make the

system fully functional. They never keep the user / potential buyer

fully informed of the status of system development on their web site.

There is basically no Help file / documentation with the newly

arrived brain application. THere is a brain game in the menu and one

has no idea what it is supposed to do .

The ear clips included with the system are cheap and cumbersome to

use. The respiratory application uses an elastic transducer attached

in a cheap way to a long piece of Velcro.

I really do not understand. In my mind J & J is a mixed bag of really

cool biofeedback equipment (I think EMG is really their forte, and

the HRV/RSA application is good) and poor communication, NON

intuitive software applications, web site claims that have been very

misleading, and apparent lack of concern for a user's frustration

over product delays and improperly working applications, particularly

SOUND.

I hate to make my initial contribution to this list a complaint, but

I have seen no forum for discussion of J & J products , and I cannot

believe that I am the only one who has been frustrated dealing with

them.

Joe Duba, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Fred,

I love your response. YOu seem to talkingyourself into and then out of it. You

don't seem to know why you should combine them on one machine and yet you do

combine them using separate machines. My motto, SIMPLIFY!. Get rid of all

those extra wires, cords, gadgets.

On top of that, right now you can not make sense of those two modalities. The J

and J equipment will give you charts showing the relationships.

Litchfield is the one who is doing a lot of work in this area and particularly

asked Jan for EEG and HRV together. I personally am on the same page with you

and am really more interested in the capnographic correlation with EEG. In time.

I don't have Jan's unit myself yet, as I too have been waiting for the right

software. Now, I am very anxious to add it to my compendium of EEG spectrum,

BMr, and Roshi. I find each machine serves different purposes and suits

different clients, just like a comfortable chair.

Have a great day.

Rosemary

Re: J & J equiipment

I did my original biofeedback training on J & J instruments in 1985 (M-

57, etc) and have used them for many years. A few years ago I decided

to purchase a C-2 system, with hopes of getting some neurofeedback

applications not readily available with Neurocybernetics equipment. I

was even told that alpha asymmetry training would be available when

brain applications arrived.

The system was incomplete, initially without even any sound feedback.

DEspite the fact that their web site promised that brain wave

applications would soon be available, I have gone through a

frustrating period of MANY months waiting for upgrades to make the

system fully functional. They never keep the user / potential buyer

fully informed of the status of system development on their web site.

There is basically no Help file / documentation with the newly

arrived brain application. THere is a brain game in the menu and one

has no idea what it is supposed to do .

The ear clips included with the system are cheap and cumbersome to

use. The respiratory application uses an elastic transducer attached

in a cheap way to a long piece of Velcro.

I really do not understand. In my mind J & J is a mixed bag of really

cool biofeedback equipment (I think EMG is really their forte, and

the HRV/RSA application is good) and poor communication, NON

intuitive software applications, web site claims that have been very

misleading, and apparent lack of concern for a user's frustration

over product delays and improperly working applications, particularly

SOUND.

I hate to make my initial contribution to this list a complaint, but

I have seen no forum for discussion of J & J products , and I cannot

believe that I am the only one who has been frustrated dealing with

them.

Joe Duba, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Rosemary:

I have a question on HRV. Some folks talk about using breathing, the

folks at heart math talk about generating feelings of sincere

appreciation.

Could you comment on what instructions you give people when they are

starting HRV training?

Mark

[Guest guest]

Rosemary:

You're right....I'm going back and forth....really trying to figure out whether

I can justify the added cost of a new unit.

Do you know if Litchfield is going to combine his capnometer unit with EEG

as well....I actually have his combination capnometer/HRV unit and I love it.

Another combination that may be very useful is photic stim with RSA/Baroreflex

breathing. My wife (age 56) is using this combination on herself, using a preset

ramping photic stimulation program more designed to produce novel stimulation

for increasing cerebral blood flow as opposed to entraining certain frequencies

of brain waves....and doing the RSA breathing at the same time. She swears that

it dramatically increases her energy and resilience. Whereas we are currently

using the Paradise to do this, it could certainly be used with the Roshi

as well, maybe with superior results....I'm still waiting for the Windows

version of Roshi.

I've experimented also with doing pIR HEG and RSA breathing togather

simultaneously, but have not noticed much of an advantage doing it this way.

However, I'm seeing a tremendous advantage to having my clients do both of these

sequentially. I hope to have Hersel's NIR HEG unti up an running sometime in the

near future, and hope to experiment with some combinations with his unit.

By the way, since you also like to collect a lot of different equipment, I've

run across another new item that is sometimes useful in breathing training. It's

called the Resparate, and is intended to help people lower their blood pressure.

It works by measuring your current breathing rate over a short period of time,

and then uses a musical pacer to slowly reduce your breathing rate by

lengthening the exhale. If, however, you begin breathing at a different rate for

a period of 30 sec. than the pacer is set for, the pacer will automatically

adjust to that new rate (either faster or slower), and then gradually try to

slow the breathing from there. It has several selections of musical pacers that

are very pleasant to listen to, and a session lasts for 15 minutes. The way that

I'm finding this useful is for young kids who have a very difficult time

following a standard breathing pacer, and for some adults who are very impaired

in their breathing (who have a very difficult time slowing their breathing

down). Both of these types of clients require some shaping in terms of slowing

their breath rate down so that they can eventually approach their resonant

frequency. Using the Resparate with these people not only gives them easier

practice in following a pacer, but it helps me to know the lowest breath rate I

can reasonably start them at in the RSA training.

Fred

Re: J & J equiipment

I did my original biofeedback training on J & J instruments in 1985

(M-

57, etc) and have used them for many years. A few years ago I

decided

to purchase a C-2 system, with hopes of getting some neurofeedback

applications not readily available with Neurocybernetics equipment.

I

was even told that alpha asymmetry training would be available when

brain applications arrived.

The system was incomplete, initially without even any sound

feedback.

DEspite the fact that their web site promised that brain wave

applications would soon be available, I have gone through a

frustrating period of MANY months waiting for upgrades to make the

system fully functional. They never keep the user / potential buyer

fully informed of the status of system development on their web

site.

There is basically no Help file / documentation with the newly

arrived brain application. THere is a brain game in the menu and one

has no idea what it is supposed to do .

The ear clips included with the system are cheap and cumbersome to

use. The respiratory application uses an elastic transducer attached

in a cheap way to a long piece of Velcro.

I really do not understand. In my mind J & J is a mixed bag of really

cool biofeedback equipment (I think EMG is really their forte, and

the HRV/RSA application is good) and poor communication, NON

intuitive software applications, web site claims that have been very

misleading, and apparent lack of concern for a user's frustration

over product delays and improperly working applications,

particularly

SOUND.

I hate to make my initial contribution to this list a complaint, but

I have seen no forum for discussion of J & J products , and I cannot

believe that I am the only one who has been frustrated dealing with

them.

Joe Duba, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Fred,

Thanks for the wonderful information. It's exciting to find a fellow repirator

out there who understands this stuff and how important breathing is and all the

nuances. Yes, the capnograph is coming. That will be my special project.

Ok, where do I get this resparate. It sounds wonderful. I spent 10 years

working with high risk cardiac patients and breathing was always the key issue.

Also, did reseach taking two groups to Nepal to climb to Everest Base Camp. I

spent three months teaching them " Sherpa " breathing and then used an oximeter

and capnograph as a biofeedback machine. We were actually able to maintain 02

levels of 95% at 20,000 feet . Could not have done it without the training and

the feedback. Anyway, another long story.

I would like to check out the resparate. How much is it and who developed it?

Let's keep in touch about this area. Where are you? I am in the San s and

Mt. Vernon, WASH.

The best, Rosemary

Re: J & J equiipment

I did my original biofeedback training on J & J instruments in 1985

(M-

57, etc) and have used them for many years. A few years ago I

decided

to purchase a C-2 system, with hopes of getting some neurofeedback

applications not readily available with Neurocybernetics

equipment. I

was even told that alpha asymmetry training would be available

when

brain applications arrived.

The system was incomplete, initially without even any sound

feedback.

DEspite the fact that their web site promised that brain wave

applications would soon be available, I have gone through a

frustrating period of MANY months waiting for upgrades to make the

system fully functional. They never keep the user / potential

buyer

fully informed of the status of system development on their web

site.

There is basically no Help file / documentation with the newly

arrived brain application. THere is a brain game in the menu and

one

has no idea what it is supposed to do .

The ear clips included with the system are cheap and cumbersome to

use. The respiratory application uses an elastic transducer

attached

in a cheap way to a long piece of Velcro.

I really do not understand. In my mind J & J is a mixed bag of

really

cool biofeedback equipment (I think EMG is really their forte,

and

the HRV/RSA application is good) and poor communication, NON

intuitive software applications, web site claims that have been

very

misleading, and apparent lack of concern for a user's frustration

over product delays and improperly working applications,

particularly

SOUND.

I hate to make my initial contribution to this list a complaint,

but

I have seen no forum for discussion of J & J products , and I cannot

believe that I am the only one who has been frustrated dealing

with

them.

Joe Duba, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Fred,

Is your wife using one of the routines preprogrammed in the Paradise

or one you or she have devised? Can you specify it?

I'm also interested in a source for the Resperate device. I found only one

reference on Google.

I bought an adjustable metronome which seems to work well for some who could

not use a timing CD or clock second hand. And I find that the heart focus

learned from HeartMath does help in a large proportion of people: they get

bigger waves than without it.

Al

[Guest guest]

Rosemary and Al:

Resparate's web site is: http://www.resperate.com/ . The only place I know that

sells it retail is Drug Store.Com, and the link is:

http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=75614 & catid=32886 & trx=PLST-0-CAT & \

trxp1=32886 & trxp2=75614 & trxp3=1 & trxp4=0 & btrx=BUY-PLST-0-CAT . I think that Drug

Store.Com has a 30 day money back satisfaction guarentee for this product.

Anyway, it's a fairly inexpensive product that seems to be well made and

functions as it is supposed to. I know Leherer was recently thinking about

researching the use of HRV biofeedback to lower blood pressure, and Resparate's

research has probably already done something very similar.

Fred

Re: J & J equiipment

I did my original biofeedback training on J & J instruments in

1985 (M-

57, etc) and have used them for many years. A few years ago I

decided

to purchase a C-2 system, with hopes of getting some

neurofeedback

applications not readily available with Neurocybernetics

equipment. I

was even told that alpha asymmetry training would be available

when

brain applications arrived.

The system was incomplete, initially without even any sound

feedback.

DEspite the fact that their web site promised that brain wave

applications would soon be available, I have gone through a

frustrating period of MANY months waiting for upgrades to make

the

system fully functional. They never keep the user / potential

buyer

fully informed of the status of system development on their web

site.

There is basically no Help file / documentation with the newly

arrived brain application. THere is a brain game in the menu and

one

has no idea what it is supposed to do .

The ear clips included with the system are cheap and cumbersome

to

use. The respiratory application uses an elastic transducer

attached

in a cheap way to a long piece of Velcro.

I really do not understand. In my mind J & J is a mixed bag of

really

cool biofeedback equipment (I think EMG is really their forte,

and

the HRV/RSA application is good) and poor communication, NON

intuitive software applications, web site claims that have been

very

misleading, and apparent lack of concern for a user's

frustration

over product delays and improperly working applications,

particularly

SOUND.

I hate to make my initial contribution to this list a complaint,

but

I have seen no forum for discussion of J & J products , and I

cannot

believe that I am the only one who has been frustrated dealing

with

them.

Joe Duba, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Rosemary:

Do you find that having an oximeter is useful for your normal clinical practice?

If so, how and when do you use it? If it is generally useful, what oximeter unit

would you recommend (price is a consideration)?

I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma ( I do have a son who works for Microsoft in Seattle),

and I suspect that I'm the only clinician in the whole state that is trying to

integrate issues of breathing physiology with neurofeedback....so I'm pretty

much on my own out here. Let's keep in touch. By the way, are you familiar with

the Stough method of breathing coordination....it seems like it might be a good

method for exercising the diaphragm and creating a fuller range of motion, but I

don't know enough about this whole area to be a good judge of it. If you are

familiar with this method, what are your opinions? Carl Stough reportedly was

very successful with advanced emphysema patients and helped train the olympic

atheletes for the high altitude 1968 games in Mexico City. Please tell me more

about " Sherpa breathing. " Feel free to back channel me about any of this

information, since I suspect it is beginning to get a little off topic from the

list.

Fred

Re: J & J equiipment

I did my original biofeedback training on J & J instruments in

1985 (M-

57, etc) and have used them for many years. A few years ago I

decided

to purchase a C-2 system, with hopes of getting some

neurofeedback

applications not readily available with Neurocybernetics

equipment. I

was even told that alpha asymmetry training would be available

when

brain applications arrived.

The system was incomplete, initially without even any sound

feedback.

DEspite the fact that their web site promised that brain wave

applications would soon be available, I have gone through a

frustrating period of MANY months waiting for upgrades to make

the

system fully functional. They never keep the user / potential

buyer

fully informed of the status of system development on their web

site.

There is basically no Help file / documentation with the newly

arrived brain application. THere is a brain game in the menu and

one

has no idea what it is supposed to do .

The ear clips included with the system are cheap and cumbersome

to

use. The respiratory application uses an elastic transducer

attached

in a cheap way to a long piece of Velcro.

I really do not understand. In my mind J & J is a mixed bag of

really

cool biofeedback equipment (I think EMG is really their forte,

and

the HRV/RSA application is good) and poor communication, NON

intuitive software applications, web site claims that have been

very

misleading, and apparent lack of concern for a user's

frustration

over product delays and improperly working applications,

particularly

SOUND.

I hate to make my initial contribution to this list a complaint,

but

I have seen no forum for discussion of J & J products , and I

cannot

believe that I am the only one who has been frustrated dealing

with

them.

Joe Duba, M.D.

[Guest guest]

Mark,

I have worked with cardiac patents for a nunber of years and one of their

biggest issues is anger and not breathing. I know the folks at hearth math did

some testing on emotions in their earlier days and discovered some real

differences in breathing patterns as a result of changing emotional state.

Extending appreciation toward others is one of the most positive things we as

humans can do. And the old saying, " What goes around comes around " . It does

come back to us and heals us as well. The folks at heart math have found this

to be their avenue toward influencing HRV. They know and realilze breathing

changes with this effort.

My approach is to skin the cat from the inside out and change breathing. Both

methods get there. IT would be interesting to see which one gets you there

faster and is more lasting. Heart math is not into breathing training. They

just don't really knowi t. I have asked this question a number of times. The

other company who developed the other HRV machine (can't remember their name)

was very much into using breathing as the training vehicle. So, two roads to

the same place.

I personally don't use HRV a lot. I do train breathing though with everyone.

I have them do their breathing while doing NF and I can tell immediately if they

are doing it properly as their EEG changes and the scores improve. I might

encourage someone to buy the program HRV as a home trainer and do it at home

while watching TV and see the effect of the TV they are watching on their

breathing. I like to see the training transfer out and getting folks to

incorporate in their daily living is important. Try doing HRV while playing a

computer video game.

I am interested in Jan's machine and using HRV more as a concurrent vehicle.

Hooking up two or more extraneous machines and computers is too much for what I

do. I may train up to three people concurrently so it is not really possible.

The best,

Rosemary

Rosemary:

I have a question on HRV. Some folks talk about using breathing, the

folks at heart math talk about generating feelings of sincere

appreciation.

Could you comment on what instructions you give people when they are

starting HRV training?

Mark

[Guest guest]

Fred,

I secured an medical oximeter from one of the companies prior to my visit to

Nepal. My main requirement was that it was light and small. I suspect you might

be able to find one on E-bay. Also, I believe Jan has had one in the past. I

can check for you.

Good ole Microsoft. Everyone works there. My friend and I are ready to break in

to set up an Asperger's clinci there. Should really fly.

No, I am not familiar with Carl Stough. I worked closely with Dr. Claude Lum at

Cambridge. He has written the best information on breathing...beyond the

California rebirthing and Stan. G. stuff. While good, not the best in my

opinion.

My " Sherpa breathing " was based on following a psychic insight I had one day and

went to the library to research altitude breathing. I knew the Sherpa's were

breathing differently and the way I envisioned they would. I went to the

International Hypoxia meetings, asked mega questions and finally approached Dr.

Hornbein at the UW (first American to climb Everest) with my hypothesis.

He and Dr. Schoene (head of respiratory medicine) could not imagine where I had

come from and knew what I knew. They invited me to work with them at Harborview

in Seattle . I gave them all my info. I went to Nepal to test my hypothesis two

years in a row. It worked very well. We had very few of the normal problems at

altitude. Make a long story short, Schoene and Hornbein rewrote the " American

Everest 1984 Expedition " article based on my CO2 information and published it in

the NEJM in 1990. One of my best friends was one of the top three altitude

people. He told me about it and I went to court. 7 year battle which I finally

won. So, " Sherpa Breathing " is my baby and the Mountaineers teach it now.

Since the battle was only over a short time ago I am finally coming out with it.

It is essentially diaphragmatic breathing, pursed lip, and exhalation is gauged

to degree of activity and altitude. We did find that without the feedback from

the oximeter that the body did not catch-up fast enough to prevent altitude

sickness. So, the feedback from the oximeter did allow for increasing breathing

just enough to bring one back to " normal " .

Gilbert in SanFrancisco is the only other one on the same page I am.

He too studied with Claude Lum and has written some beautiful articles

onbreathing , published in the English body mind magazine. The best I have

seen.

So, all for now. Thanks for all your info. Rosemary

Re: J & J equiipment

I did my original biofeedback training on J & J instruments in

1985 (M-

57, etc) and have used them for many years. A few years ago I

decided

to purchase a C-2 system, with hopes of getting some

neurofeedback

applications not readily available with Neurocybernetics

equipment. I

was even told that alpha asymmetry training would be available

when

brain applications arrived.

The system was incomplete, initially without even any sound

feedback.

DEspite the fact that their web site promised that brain wave

applications would soon be available, I have gone through a

frustrating period of MANY months waiting for upgrades to make

the

system fully functional. They never keep the user / potential

buyer

fully informed of the status of system development on their

web site.

There is basically no Help file / documentation with the newly

arrived brain application. THere is a brain game in the menu

and one

has no idea what it is supposed to do .

The ear clips included with the system are cheap and

cumbersome to

use. The respiratory application uses an elastic transducer

attached

in a cheap way to a long piece of Velcro.

I really do not understand. In my mind J & J is a mixed bag of

really

cool biofeedback equipment (I think EMG is really their

forte, and

the HRV/RSA application is good) and poor communication, NON

intuitive software applications, web site claims that have

been very

misleading, and apparent lack of concern for a user's

frustration

over product delays and improperly working applications,

particularly

SOUND.

I hate to make my initial contribution to this list a

complaint, but

I have seen no forum for discussion of J & J products , and I

cannot

believe that I am the only one who has been frustrated dealing

with

them.

Joe Duba, M.D.