Re: Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Once again, in the light of the great interest in HRV training and the talk of

the J & J unit's multi-modal capabilities.

I would like to reaffirm that the WaveRider which's 2channel version sells for

$950,00 offers EEG, EKG, EMG and GSR training simultaneously.

Also,

I have an interest in developing a HeartRate training program that could be used

by any of the existing apparati- which would allow people to CHAT online their

Heart Rate signal.

The idea being that large groups of people, sinchronizing their breath and heart

rhythms could potentialize a simultaneous thought field.

To give you an idea of where I'm looking, I would (off the cuff) name the URL of

this program: www.timefortelepathy.com .

What I am stating here is an hook in the sea. If there are any other

professionals who see the benefit of such a project- please get in touch with me

back-channel at cmvd@...

Perhaps we could dedicate a discussion group to the development of something in

this circle of interest.

All the best,

SOMOS AMOR

Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

As a person following this group and others as a way of

deciding on equipment to buy and what othere approaches to pursue

for myself, I hope you will continue the discussions on

equipment, HRV, and so forth. Fred Bramble mentioned

that maybe the breathing-HRV discussion had gone too

far for this list. Well that's up to the other list

members I guess; but for me it's been the best discussion

of this area that I've seen and I'd love to keep hearing

about it. It certainly confuses the what equipment to

buy issue as you just can't get everything in one device

(or you have to pay quite a bit more).

One thing that is not so clear to me from all the

breathing - HRV discussions I've seen here and elsewhere

is just what kind of problems/symptoms are being solved

or resolved with this. And what is the experience like?

Is there some sense of relaxation, or balance, or clarity,

or what that goes with that work?

Thanks

Phil Levy

[Guest guest]

Phil:

My understanding is that HRV biofeedback aims to increase heart rate

variability, which reduces autonomic over-reactivity. It does this by

manipulating two basic oscilating reflex processes in the autonomic nervous

system, namely, respiratory sinus arrhythmia and the baroreceptor reflexes. We

utilize breathing because this is one part of the autonomic nervous system that

can be consiciously manipulated. In essense, we have the individual slow down

their breathing to a point where respiratory sinus arrthymia and baroreflexes

are lined up togather in such a way as to both be increasing and decreasing

heart rate at the same time. When this happens, heart rate variability is

increased dramatically in a healthy system, much more than one would expect from

a simple additive effect. Also, when this happens, the spectral power display

will show the formation of a resonant frequency....and the harmonics of this has

something to do with the large increase in HRV (don't ask me exactly how because

I really don't understand harmonics). But this is why HRV biofeedback is

sometimes called " resonant frequency training " or RSA/Baroreflex breathing

training. The rate of breathing that produces this effect is generally 6 bpm in

most adults, at least about 90% of the time. Sometimes it is 7 bpm, sometimes it

might be 5 bpm....you have to find this out by experimentation and watching the

HRV oscilations on the cardiotachogram.

Once the correct rate of breathing is determined, the client is then instructed

to practice this type of breathing for at least 10 min., twice a day, or more.

Some symptom resolution may come fairly quickly with this proceedure, but most

experts believe that it takes at least a month of this exercise to produce a

more profound shift in the autonomic nervous system. The idea of this exercise

is that when maximum heart rate variability is created, that the baroreflexes

and probably also the reflex activity in respiratory sinus arrthymia are taken

through their full range of motion, and that when done repeatedly these reflexes

become more responsive, resultingt in a better homeostatic balance, less

reactivity during stress, and a quicker recovery from stress. We use to think

that HRV biofeedback was primarily increasing parasympathetic tone in the

autonomic nervous system, but some experts are now thinking that it is somehow

activating and normalizing the brain stem regulators of the autonomic nervous

system, restoring homeostatic processes.

It is also important to remember that this is an artificial way of breathing,

and for some people initially uncomfortable. So the experience of this exercise

is sort of like jogging. Some people like it, some don't. Some people feel

engergized afterwards, some feel tired. But, like jogging, if you keep doing it

on a regular basis, it leads to people feeling calmer, more solid, more energy

reserves, and healthier in general. If people do the RSA/Baroreflex breathing on

a regular basis, most find it pleasantly relaxing. For some people, this

relaxation is a profound experience at first, but I've also had some very

stressed people actually fall asleep while doing this the first time. It is also

easy to overbreathe doing this type of breathing exercise, and a capnometer is

handy in checking this out. Sometimes I had clients actually produce their

negative symptoms while trying this exercise, but this has always been

associated with overbreathing (depleting CO2 levels) at the same time.

HRV biofeedback should be useful for any condition that involves autonomic

dysregulation. Very good for anxiety and panic disorders. Good for some sleep

disorders. Good for asthma, chronic pain, hypertension, and cardiac rehab. Good

for Post Traumatic Stress Disorders. Excellent for migraines, irritable bowel

syndrome, and Recurrent Abdominal Pain Disorder. I've actually had migraine

patients learn to abort their migraines with this technique, if they catch it

early on. The same has been true of IBS and abdominal pain with cyclical

vomiting. It's also very good for atheletes for controlling anxiety during

competition. I've even gotten rid of my cardiac arrthymias with this proceedure.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

As a person following this group and others as a way of

deciding on equipment to buy and what othere approaches to pursue

for myself, I hope you will continue the discussions on

equipment, HRV, and so forth. Fred Bramble mentioned

that maybe the breathing-HRV discussion had gone too

far for this list. Well that's up to the other list

members I guess; but for me it's been the best discussion

of this area that I've seen and I'd love to keep hearing

about it. It certainly confuses the what equipment to

buy issue as you just can't get everything in one device

(or you have to pay quite a bit more).

One thing that is not so clear to me from all the

breathing - HRV discussions I've seen here and elsewhere

is just what kind of problems/symptoms are being solved

or resolved with this. And what is the experience like?

Is there some sense of relaxation, or balance, or clarity,

or what that goes with that work?

Thanks

Phil Levy

[Guest guest]

I agree with Phil. This type of discussion is very useful. I had heard of some

of these but hearing from people who have actually used them is much more

helpful.

Rosemary H.

Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

As a person following this group and others as a way of

deciding on equipment to buy and what othere approaches to pursue

for myself, I hope you will continue the discussions on

equipment, HRV, and so forth. Fred Bramble mentioned

that maybe the breathing-HRV discussion had gone too

far for this list. Well that's up to the other list

members I guess; but for me it's been the best discussion

of this area that I've seen and I'd love to keep hearing

about it. It certainly confuses the what equipment to

buy issue as you just can't get everything in one device

(or you have to pay quite a bit more).

[Guest guest]

Adrain:

Heart rate and hear rate variability are two very different things. A

hear rate is an average taken over a period of time. If you expand the

time base you will see the hear rate jumps around or varies over time.

This is a result of the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous systems

resting for control over the hear rate. The objective of HRV training is

to get the push pull between the two systems to be more rhythmic,

sinusoidal rather than jerky. The Heart math people call this

" entrainment. "

Mark

Re: Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

Hi,

Once again, in the light of the great interest in HRV training and the

talk of the J & J unit's multi-modal capabilities.

I would like to reaffirm that the WaveRider which's 2channel version

sells for $950,00 offers EEG, EKG, EMG and GSR training simultaneously.

Also,

I have an interest in developing a HeartRate training program that could

be used by any of the existing apparati- which would allow people to

CHAT online their Heart Rate signal.

The idea being that large groups of people, sinchronizing their breath

and heart rhythms could potentialize a simultaneous thought field.

To give you an idea of where I'm looking, I would (off the cuff) name

the URL of this program: www.timefortelepathy.com .

What I am stating here is an hook in the sea. If there are any other

professionals who see the benefit of such a project- please get in touch

with me back-channel at cmvd@...

Perhaps we could dedicate a discussion group to the development of

something in this circle of interest.

All the best,

SOMOS AMOR

Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

As a person following this group and others as a way of

deciding on equipment to buy and what othere approaches to pursue

for myself, I hope you will continue the discussions on

equipment, HRV, and so forth. Fred Bramble mentioned

that maybe the breathing-HRV discussion had gone too

far for this list. Well that's up to the other list

members I guess; but for me it's been the best discussion

of this area that I've seen and I'd love to keep hearing

about it. It certainly confuses the what equipment to

buy issue as you just can't get everything in one device

(or you have to pay quite a bit more).

One thing that is not so clear to me from all the

breathing - HRV discussions I've seen here and elsewhere

is just what kind of problems/symptoms are being solved

or resolved with this. And what is the experience like?

Is there some sense of relaxation, or balance, or clarity,

or what that goes with that work?

Thanks

Phil Levy

[Guest guest]

Mark said:

Heart rate and hear rate variability are two very different things. A

hear rate is an average taken over a period of time. If you expand the

time base you will see the hear rate jumps around or varies over time.

in response to my statement:

I have an interest in developing a HeartRate training program

Pardon the misnomer. I stand corrected.

The invite still stands.

" If there are any other

professionals who see the benefit of such a project- please get in touch

with me back-channel at cmvd@...

Perhaps we could dedicate a discussion group to the development of

something in this circle of interest. "

Looking forward,

All the best,

SOMOS AMOR

Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

As a person following this group and others as a way of

deciding on equipment to buy and what othere approaches to pursue

for myself, I hope you will continue the discussions on

equipment, HRV, and so forth. Fred Bramble mentioned

that maybe the breathing-HRV discussion had gone too

far for this list. Well that's up to the other list

members I guess; but for me it's been the best discussion

of this area that I've seen and I'd love to keep hearing

about it. It certainly confuses the what equipment to

buy issue as you just can't get everything in one device

(or you have to pay quite a bit more).

One thing that is not so clear to me from all the

breathing - HRV discussions I've seen here and elsewhere

is just what kind of problems/symptoms are being solved

or resolved with this. And what is the experience like?

Is there some sense of relaxation, or balance, or clarity,

or what that goes with that work?

Thanks

Phil Levy

[Guest guest]

Perhaps we could all entrain to one another.

Or resonate our hearts.

Sounds very interesting.

Mark

Re: Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

Mark said:

Heart rate and hear rate variability are two very different things. A

hear rate is an average taken over a period of time. If you expand the

time base you will see the hear rate jumps around or varies over time.

in response to my statement:

I have an interest in developing a HeartRate training program

Pardon the misnomer. I stand corrected.

The invite still stands.

" If there are any other

professionals who see the benefit of such a project- please get in touch

with me back-channel at cmvd@...

Perhaps we could dedicate a discussion group to the development of

something in this circle of interest. "

Looking forward,

All the best,

SOMOS AMOR

Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

As a person following this group and others as a way of

deciding on equipment to buy and what othere approaches to pursue

for myself, I hope you will continue the discussions on

equipment, HRV, and so forth. Fred Bramble mentioned

that maybe the breathing-HRV discussion had gone too

far for this list. Well that's up to the other list

members I guess; but for me it's been the best discussion

of this area that I've seen and I'd love to keep hearing

about it. It certainly confuses the what equipment to

buy issue as you just can't get everything in one device

(or you have to pay quite a bit more).

One thing that is not so clear to me from all the

breathing - HRV discussions I've seen here and elsewhere

is just what kind of problems/symptoms are being solved

or resolved with this. And what is the experience like?

Is there some sense of relaxation, or balance, or clarity,

or what that goes with that work?

Thanks

Phil Levy

[Guest guest]

Thank you. This is VERY good information for me. I am trying to work with

my foster kids (males 15, 16 17) and they aren't interested in sitting

still for EEG, but I could sell breathing especially the athletics part.

Bob Roos

At 12:18 PM 11/4/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>Phil:

>

>My understanding is that HRV biofeedback aims to increase heart rate

>variability...........

[Guest guest]

Fred,

Your explanation was most eloquent and thank your for that. Hope you don't mind

if I add a few thoughts and experiences with teaching breathing over 20 years.

First, yes people usually do get tired doing it. Actually, we fall asleep at

night when our C02 level goes up, so as we do this breathing we are raising CO2

level and it is making us sleepy. If you don't get sleepy or more

parasympathetic you are probably not doing it right. YOu will find people

yawning and their eyes getting watery when they do proper breathing.

I am not sure about the baroreflexes. I used to get in great arguements over

baroreceptor responses to this type of breathing. I believe many Eastern studies

have shown that with this type of breathing we are really over-riding the baro

responses. At Harborview in Seattle I brought in 8 breathing trained

biofeedback clients to be tested on three mountain simulation exercises. First

was to climb Mt. Rainier with O2 being reduced to 70% in 5 mins., the second a

CO2 challenge, and the third max exercise. My clients were being compared to

the athletes who were going on the Manaslu expedition " . In every case we were

totally able to control our breathing. In challenge one, breathing rate was

5/minute, in challenge two, 6/min and in challenge three 12/min. The Manaslu

team had the normally expected baroreceptor responses and breathed much faster

in all cases. They did not have control over their breathing. Dr. Schoene

brought in 3 pulmonologists to watch us because he had never seen anything like

this. Western medical thinking is locked into baroreceptor responses taking

over. This is just not the case.

In training those with anxiety one must approach this training with some

caution. Anxiety patients have been found to have lower levels of PCO2. My own

experience with them is to proceed slowly. When I teach them breathing they can

do about three breaths and then need to squirm, wiggle, fidget, whatever in

order to return to their " normal chest breath " . I routinely tell them to do

three breaths at at time many times in one day, four breaths at a time next week

and build from there. They gradually learn it but it takes longer. We are

shifting their whole physiology.

I instruct patients to practice every hour. I learned from a physical therapist

that to change a physical habit it must be practiced at least once an hour. I

send clients home with stickers, methods of practice, many things to help them

instill this into their daily practice. One of my mountain trekers worked for

Microsoft and managed to instill in his computer the word " Breathe " . It would

pop up on his computer every 15 minutes. Great training tool.

Just a few thoughts to add.

Rosemary

Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

As a person following this group and others as a way of

deciding on equipment to buy and what othere approaches to pursue

for myself, I hope you will continue the discussions on

equipment, HRV, and so forth. Fred Bramble mentioned

that maybe the breathing-HRV discussion had gone too

far for this list. Well that's up to the other list

members I guess; but for me it's been the best discussion

of this area that I've seen and I'd love to keep hearing

about it. It certainly confuses the what equipment to

buy issue as you just can't get everything in one device

(or you have to pay quite a bit more).

One thing that is not so clear to me from all the

breathing - HRV discussions I've seen here and elsewhere

is just what kind of problems/symptoms are being solved

or resolved with this. And what is the experience like?

Is there some sense of relaxation, or balance, or clarity,

or what that goes with that work?

Thanks

Phil Levy

[Guest guest]

Rosemary:

This is great stuff!! I've got some comments and questions, but it's getting

late, too late to give it the serious thinking that is needed....so I'll try to

comment tomorrow. Thanks for the information. Take care........

Fred

Re: Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

Fred,

Your explanation was most eloquent and thank your for that. Hope you don't

mind if I add a few thoughts and experiences with teaching breathing over 20

years.

First, yes people usually do get tired doing it. Actually, we fall asleep at

night when our C02 level goes up, so as we do this breathing we are raising CO2

level and it is making us sleepy. If you don't get sleepy or more

parasympathetic you are probably not doing it right. YOu will find people

yawning and their eyes getting watery when they do proper breathing.

I am not sure about the baroreflexes. I used to get in great arguements over

baroreceptor responses to this type of breathing. I believe many Eastern studies

have shown that with this type of breathing we are really over-riding the baro

responses. At Harborview in Seattle I brought in 8 breathing trained

biofeedback clients to be tested on three mountain simulation exercises. First

was to climb Mt. Rainier with O2 being reduced to 70% in 5 mins., the second a

CO2 challenge, and the third max exercise.. My clients were being compared to

the athletes who were going on the Manaslu expedition " . In every case we were

totally able to control our breathing. In challenge one, breathing rate was

5/minute, in challenge two, 6/min and in challenge three 12/min. The Manaslu

team had the normally expected baroreceptor responses and breathed much faster

in all cases. They did not have control over their breathing. Dr. Schoene

brought in 3 pulmonologists to watch us because he had never seen anything like

this. Western medical thinking is locked into baroreceptor responses taking

over. This is just not the case.

In training those with anxiety one must approach this training with some

caution. Anxiety patients have been found to have lower levels of PCO2. My own

experience with them is to proceed slowly. When I teach them breathing they can

do about three breaths and then need to squirm, wiggle, fidget, whatever in

order to return to their " normal chest breath " . I routinely tell them to do

three breaths at at time many times in one day, four breaths at a time next week

and build from there. They gradually learn it but it takes longer. We are

shifting their whole physiology.

I instruct patients to practice every hour. I learned from a physical

therapist that to change a physical habit it must be practiced at least once an

hour. I send clients home with stickers, methods of practice, many things to

help them instill this into their daily practice. One of my mountain trekers

worked for Microsoft and managed to instill in his computer the word " Breathe " .

It would pop up on his computer every 15 minutes. Great training tool.

Just a few thoughts to add.

Rosemary

[Guest guest]

> Phil:

>

> My understanding is that HRV biofeedback aims to increase heart

rate

variability, which reduces autonomic over-reactivity.

Thanks Fred and Rosemary - this is great.

And I have more questions.

It seems you are talking of two or three processes here, that are

intertwined; but somewhat distinct. I admit zero physiological

knowledge here, I'm just puzzling over the info I've gotten from

you two and a few other internet sources in this area.

Also the questions that follow seem to be asking for medical or

theoretical answers; but really I'm probably more interested in

your experience and your clients experiences that relate to these

questions.

So if breathing is used to influence the respiratory sinus arrthymia

and baroreflexes and heart rate variability which is the primary

goal? Which seems to be key in this search for better homeostatic

balance?

For instance do you practice the breathing to achieve better HRV

and then do you have to keep practicing the breathing?

Can you stop the breathing practice because you've got the component

(HRV) that brings the benefits?

Or do you have to keep practicing the breathing to keep the improved

hrv?

Or is the breathing thought to be so important in itself that you

are trying to reach the point where this is your normal way of

breathing. Rosemary, it sounds as if this is your point of view?

Also if the HeartMath folks ignore breathing and achieve the

improved HRV via working with feelings, is the breath rate slowing

and abdominal breathing happening as a result of that?

Or is that an example of improved HRV without a strong change in

the way one breathes? And if so does it bring about the same

results?

I hope I'm not asking you to teach a HRV 101 here. It's just

that whenever I've read about this in the past I've

never quite gotten it. I've never been able to put together a clear

picture of what the breathing/HRV is about.

Following your conversation here and your responses to my first

question seemed to cause the questions I hadn't been able to

formulate to bubble up.

Thanks again

Phil Levy

[Guest guest]

Phil,

Let's go back to the infant when it is born. Usually, babies are perfect and

show HRV. They breathe perfectly, and it is only as behaviorist parents do we

mess them up. Their breathing changes. In our culture by three years old most

children have become chest breathers. In third world countries where children

are held and breast fed until 3years old or there abouts, you will see stomach

breathing and more HRV into old age. Should we learn this and do it all the

time and the rest of our lives? I think so.

Unfortunately we live in a culture where we abuse ourselves (and in a lot of

cases unknowingly) by diet, TV, etc. and then we take a pill to fix it and then

we go back to our old habits. I have been doing this for 20 years and actually

now have to think how to chest breathe. Used to do the opposite.

With Heart Math, I didn't say they are not interested in breathing. They

acknowledge that breathing will get you there as well. They just don't teach it.

They have found that advocating appreciation is an easier way for them to get

there. I think the result of any change in emotion leads to a change in

physiology and consequently parasympathetic intrusion over angry sympathetic

abundance. So, yes the breathing will change. In many cases our breathing will

change with doing right sided EEG training versus left sided EEG training.

Sigfreid Othmer has compared left sided training to sympathetic arousal and

right to parasympathetic. I would agree. Caveat. For a few out there left

sided training will be relaxing though. Who? The depressed, learning disabled,

etc., i.e., those who need left training. ?For them, getting rid of the stress

of left sided issues is going to be relaxing.

I think the HRV is the most important issue here and it translates into all

areas of life. The NLP people have said for years that those individuals with

the most requisite variety or flexibility in their life are the most successful.

Interestingly, what the Heart Math individuals have found and contributed to

this and the medical field is the completely opposite information that Heart

Rate Variability is a predictor and indicator of good health. This flies in the

face of current medical practices. The meds for heart disease stabilize the

heart pattern. Ouch~! My friend and cardiac nurse tells me that they are

beginning to get this. HOwever, they have the drug companies to overcome. Its

all a big problem and very confusing to the average Joe who doesn't understand

all this.

Gotta go to work.

Rosemary

>

> My understanding is that HRV biofeedback aims to increase heart

rate

variability, which reduces autonomic over-reactivity.

.So if breathing is used to influence the respiratory sinus arrthymia

and baroreflexes and heart rate variability which is the primary

goal? Which seems to be key in this search for better homeostatic

balance?

For instance do you practice the breathing to achieve better HRV

and then do you have to keep practicing the breathing?

Can you stop the breathing practice because you've got the component

(HRV) that brings the benefits?

Or do you have to keep practicing the breathing to keep the improved

hrv?

Or is the breathing thought to be so important in itself that you

are trying to reach the point where this is your normal way of

breathing. Rosemary, it sounds as if this is your point of view?

Also if the HeartMath folks ignore breathing and achieve the

improved HRV via working with feelings, is the breath rate slowing

and abdominal breathing happening as a result of that?

Or is that an example of improved HRV without a strong change in

the way one breathes? And if so does it bring about the same

results?

I hope I'm not asking you to teach a HRV 101 here. It's just

that whenever I've read about this in the past I've

never quite gotten it. I've never been able to put together a clear

picture of what the breathing/HRV is about.

Following your conversation here and your responses to my first

question seemed to cause the questions I hadn't been able to

formulate to bubble up.

Thanks again

Phil Levy

[Guest guest]

> Once again, in the light of the great interest in HRV training and

the talk of the J & J unit's multi-modal capabilities.

> I would like to reaffirm that the WaveRider which's 2channel

version

sells for $950,00 offers EEG, EKG, EMG and GSR training

simultaneously.

>

Hi (and anyone else who wants to chip in)

On the surface the WaveRider models both Junior and the 5 channel

Pro seem like the best low cost eeg deals. Why don't I see

anything on the internet indicating more people using them?

Is there a problem with the hardware, or is the software lacking

or perhaps technical support? What gives?

I agree at $995 for the Junior with 2 open channels for eeg,

heart rate, or emg, and one fixed for gsr - it sounds like a

great deal.

At $1700 for the Pro with 4 open channels and 1 fixed, again it

sounds like a great deal. Four eeg channels is perhaps enough

to do synchronicity training? Is it actually possible with

the WaveRider Pro?

Certainly the other units I've checked on with more than 2 channels

are much more expensive. Thousands of dollars more expensive.

So can someone lay out the pros and cons of these 2 units?

Thanks

Phil Levy

[Guest guest]

Phil,

I would recommend you compare the units to the J & J side by side and I think

then and only you will see the ease of operation of the J & J along with

coordination of the different modes. It is a fine piece of work. Rosemary

Re: Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

> Once again, in the light of the great interest in HRV training and

the talk of the J & J unit's multi-modal capabilities.

> I would like to reaffirm that the WaveRider which's 2channel

version

sells for $950,00 offers EEG, EKG, EMG and GSR training

simultaneously.

>

Hi (and anyone else who wants to chip in)

On the surface the WaveRider models both Junior and the 5 channel

Pro seem like the best low cost eeg deals. Why don't I see

anything on the internet indicating more people using them?

Is there a problem with the hardware, or is the software lacking

or perhaps technical support? What gives?

I agree at $995 for the Junior with 2 open channels for eeg,

heart rate, or emg, and one fixed for gsr - it sounds like a

great deal.

At $1700 for the Pro with 4 open channels and 1 fixed, again it

sounds like a great deal. Four eeg channels is perhaps enough

to do synchronicity training? Is it actually possible with

the WaveRider Pro?

Certainly the other units I've checked on with more than 2 channels

are much more expensive. Thousands of dollars more expensive.

So can someone lay out the pros and cons of these 2 units?

Thanks

Phil Levy

[Guest guest]

Rosemary:

In regard to baroreflex activity, I suspect we are talking about two different

types of breathing training. It sounds as if the breathing training you teach

increases HRV, but is also more encompassing, and may well be superior. In

regard to HRV biofeedback, I was originally influenced by Lehrer's ideas

about the role of the baroreflexes, as is spelled out in the following article:

Heart Rate Variability Biofeedback as a Method for Assessing Baroreflex

Function: A Preliminary Study of Resonance in the Cardiovascular System. Evgeny

Vaschillo, Lehrer, Naphtali Rishe, Mikhail Konstantinov, Applied

Psychophysiology and Biofeedback, 2002, Vol. 27 (1), 1-27. It's been awhile

since I've read this article, but I think it indicated that if depth of

breathing is held constant, then the greatest magnitude of HRV is achieved when

breathing rate is in a 180 (?) degree phase relationship with baroreceptor

activity, so that both respiratory sinus arrthymia and baroreflexes are

increasing and decreasing heart rate in unison.

I also suspect that both the Heart Math approach and alpha training increase HRV

by calming the autonomic nervous system, and eventually producing slower

breathing which approaches the resonant frequency described above. Many ways to

skin a cat, but breathing seems to be the mediator.

When you talk about this type of breathing over-riding the baro responses, I'm

assuming you are talking about your method of " sherpa " breathing, which if I'm

understanding you correctly is puting a lot of emphasis on maintaining CO2

levels by emphasizing slow diaphragmatic breathing with a particular emphasis on

the exhale. I would sure like to learn more in detail about how you go about

this. The examples you gave about the Harborview experiments are quite

impressive. You've also indicated that one can be taught to breath at a much

slower rate naturally than the typical 11- 15 bpm, and I'm assuming this is done

by the frequent hourly reminders you mentioned. About how long does it generally

take to achieve a natural slower breathing rate with this method? Indeed, this

would produce a profound increase in everyday HRV.

When training mountain climbers, do they get acclimated in the traditional way?

With your method will breathing rate still increase with acclimation to

increased altitude, but starting and ending at a much lower rate, and possibly

bypassing the issue of renal compensation? Also, does you method prevent the

irregular breathing patterns often seen at altitude, due to breathing that

sequentially responds to alkalosis and hypoxia?

Part of the reason I'm curious about all of this is because of the problems you

mentioned about chronic anxiety patients, and their inability to tolerate

increased parasympathetic activity. The psychological explanation for all of

this is sometimes one of needing to maintain an increased level of vigilance in

a potentially dangerous world, and any letting down produces unpleasant feelings

of too much vulnerability which has to be again counteracted with increased

vigilance. But, it has also often been observed that many anxiety patients have

irregular breathing, sometimes breath holding, and sometimes breathing too fast.

To me, this sounds like the traditional high altititude mountain climber who is

shifting between too little CO2 which initially causes him to temporarily cease

or slow his breathing rate, which in turn results in hypoxia which signals the

brain to rapidly breath, again blowing off too much CO2, and so on.

Of course, another problem that many anxiety patients may have is that their

overbreathing and resulting pH shift has been compensated by renal activity, and

that they have become use to have chronically low levels of CO2. I believe one

theory is that their bodily signals have adjusted to this, and so any increase

in CO2 levels, even if it's still in a sub normal range, is experienced by them

as being too much CO2, which then signals a need to breathe more rapidly,

starting the whole cycle over again. Again, if this is the case, your idea of

short practice sessions every hour would probably be more effective and less

stressful for them.

I had previously mentioned Carl Stough's method of breathing rehabilitation,

which also intriques me, and I wonder if it is similar to what you do. My

understanding is that he emphasized a slow exhale, using voice (sing-chanting

numbers) to create mild resistance to exercise the diaphragm, so that eventually

the diaphragm became able to go through its whole range of motion during

breathing, coming fully up under the rib cage on the exhale. This would of

course lead to slower, more fuller diaphagmatic breathing. My understanding is

that he would have the client use voice resistance on the exhale, but also

continue the exhale naturally after the sounds stopped (emphasizing no strain

and no use of secondary breathing muscles) so that there would be eventually a

full exhale followed by a very short natural pause, which would then be followed

by the natural reflex to inhale....with no pause between the inhale and the

exhale portion. Like you, he studied newborns to observe natural breathing. He

also used some physical touching to assist with the natural breathing mechanics.

My thought is that the pursed lips breathing that many of us use with HRV

biofeedback, or with you Sherpa breathing, may serve the same function as voice

resistance for exercising the diaphragm. I would love to hear any comments you

might have about all of this. Take care..........

Fred

Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

As a person following this group and others as a way of

deciding on equipment to buy and what othere approaches to pursue

for myself, I hope you will continue the discussions on

equipment, HRV, and so forth. Fred Bramble mentioned

that maybe the breathing-HRV discussion had gone too

far for this list. Well that's up to the other list

members I guess; but for me it's been the best discussion

of this area that I've seen and I'd love to keep hearing

about it. It certainly confuses the what equipment to

buy issue as you just can't get everything in one device

(or you have to pay quite a bit more).

One thing that is not so clear to me from all the

breathing - HRV discussions I've seen here and elsewhere

is just what kind of problems/symptoms are being solved

or resolved with this. And what is the experience like?

Is there some sense of relaxation, or balance, or clarity,

or what that goes with that work?

Thanks

Phil Levy

[Guest guest]

Hi Rosemary,

I am confused. I am reading that NLP says HRV is a good thing. Then you

say Heart Math is the opposite? or heart Math agrees with NLP and

conventional medicine is the opposite?

Bob Roos

At 07:49 AM 11/5/2002 -0800, you wrote:

>I think the HRV is the most important issue here and it translates into

>all areas of life. The NLP people have said for years that those

>individuals with the most requisite variety or flexibility in their life

>are the most successful. Interestingly, what the Heart Math individuals

>have found and contributed to this and the medical field is the completely

>opposite information that Heart Rate Variability is a predictor and

>indicator of good health.

[Guest guest]

Hi Bob,

Sorry, not to be confused. Just my tired brain. No relation between NLP and

Heart Math. NLP talks of requisite variety and flexibility as issues of success

and health. Heart Math agrees in terms of HRV. Conventional medicine has been

treating us in the opposite manner, as if stability of HR is good. Obviously,

this is not the case. Hope that clears it up. Rosemary

Hi Rosemary,

I am confused. I am reading that NLP says HRV is a good thing. Then you

say Heart Math is the opposite? or heart Math agrees with NLP and

conventional medicine is the opposite?

Bob Roos

At 07:49 AM 11/5/2002 -0800, you wrote:

>I think the HRV is the most important issue here and it translates into

>all areas of life. The NLP people have said for years that those

>individuals with the most requisite variety or flexibility in their life

>are the most successful. Interestingly, what the Heart Math individuals

>have found and contributed to this and the medical field is the completely

>opposite information that Heart Rate Variability is a predictor and

>indicator of good health.

[Guest guest]

" Part of the reason I'm curious about all of this is because of the

problems you

mentioned about chronic anxiety patients, and their inability to

tolerate

increased parasympathetic activity. The psychological explanation for

all of

this is sometimes one of needing to maintain an increased level of

vigilance in

a potentially dangerous world, and any letting down produces

unpleasant

feelings of too much vulnerability which has to be again counteracted

with

increased vigilance. "

I just want to interject and elaborate on this. Most people who are

chronically anxious, are so as a result of being socialized into it.

Anxiety is a preparatory response, and anxious folks were raised

under anxious circumstances (had anxious (or fearsome) mothers or

fathers). Anxiety 'trumps' other emotions so that anxious folks don't

feel comfortable with other emotions, becuase they feel unfamiliar.

Relaxation often leaves them vulnerable to these other feelings,

which is enough to maintain the anxiety. The normal

separation/individuation process is somewhat traumatic for everyone,

but anxious people don't allow themselves the natural grieving that

goes with 'moving on'. They don't individuate so much as 'detach'.

Relaxation can bring on those underlying feelings. This is why

anxious people are so often vulnerable to emotional release, for

example during massage.

(Sorry-I wrote my dissertation on attachment and child-maltreatment)

SDC

> Rosemary:

>

> In regard to baroreflex activity, I suspect we are talking about

two different types of breathing training. It sounds as if the

breathing training you teach increases HRV, but is also more

encompassing, and may well be superior. In regard to HRV biofeedback,

I was originally influenced by Lehrer's ideas about the role of

the baroreflexes, as is spelled out in the following article: Heart

Rate Variability Biofeedback as a Method for Assessing Baroreflex

Function: A Preliminary Study of Resonance in the Cardiovascular

System. Evgeny Vaschillo, Lehrer, Naphtali Rishe, Mikhail

Konstantinov, Applied Psychophysiology and Biofeedback, 2002, Vol. 27

(1), 1-27. It's been awhile since I've read this article, but I think

it indicated that if depth of breathing is held constant, then the

greatest magnitude of HRV is achieved when breathing rate is in a 180

(?) degree phase relationship with baroreceptor activity, so that

both respiratory sinus arrthymia and baroreflexes are increasing and

decreasing heart rate in unison.

>

> I also suspect that both the Heart Math approach and alpha training

increase HRV by calming the autonomic nervous system, and eventually

producing slower breathing which approaches the resonant frequency

described above. Many ways to skin a cat, but breathing seems to be

the mediator.

>

> When you talk about this type of breathing over-riding the baro

responses, I'm assuming you are talking about your method of " sherpa "

breathing, which if I'm understanding you correctly is puting a lot

of emphasis on maintaining CO2 levels by emphasizing slow

diaphragmatic breathing with a particular emphasis on the exhale. I

would sure like to learn more in detail about how you go about this.

The examples you gave about the Harborview experiments are quite

impressive. You've also indicated that one can be taught to breath at

a much slower rate naturally than the typical 11- 15 bpm, and I'm

assuming this is done by the frequent hourly reminders you mentioned.

About how long does it generally take to achieve a natural slower

breathing rate with this method? Indeed, this would produce a

profound increase in everyday HRV.

>

> When training mountain climbers, do they get acclimated in the

traditional way? With your method will breathing rate still increase

with acclimation to increased altitude, but starting and ending at a

much lower rate, and possibly bypassing the issue of renal

compensation? Also, does you method prevent the irregular breathing

patterns often seen at altitude, due to breathing that sequentially

responds to alkalosis and hypoxia?

>

> Part of the reason I'm curious about all of this is because of the

problems you mentioned about chronic anxiety patients, and their

inability to tolerate increased parasympathetic activity. The

psychological explanation for all of this is sometimes one of needing

to maintain an increased level of vigilance in a potentially

dangerous world, and any letting down produces unpleasant feelings of

too much vulnerability which has to be again counteracted with

increased vigilance. But, it has also often been observed that many

anxiety patients have irregular breathing, sometimes breath holding,

and sometimes breathing too fast. To me, this sounds like the

traditional high altititude mountain climber who is shifting between

too little CO2 which initially causes him to temporarily cease or

slow his breathing rate, which in turn results in hypoxia which

signals the brain to rapidly breath, again blowing off too much CO2,

and so on.

>

> Of course, another problem that many anxiety patients may have is

that their overbreathing and resulting pH shift has been compensated

by renal activity, and that they have become use to have chronically

low levels of CO2. I believe one theory is that their bodily signals

have adjusted to this, and so any increase in CO2 levels, even if

it's still in a sub normal range, is experienced by them as being too

much CO2, which then signals a need to breathe more rapidly, starting

the whole cycle over again. Again, if this is the case, your idea of

short practice sessions every hour would probably be more effective

and less stressful for them.

>

> I had previously mentioned Carl Stough's method of breathing

rehabilitation, which also intriques me, and I wonder if it is

similar to what you do. My understanding is that he emphasized a slow

exhale, using voice (sing-chanting numbers) to create mild resistance

to exercise the diaphragm, so that eventually the diaphragm became

able to go through its whole range of motion during breathing, coming

fully up under the rib cage on the exhale. This would of course lead

to slower, more fuller diaphagmatic breathing. My understanding is

that he would have the client use voice resistance on the exhale, but

also continue the exhale naturally after the sounds stopped

(emphasizing no strain and no use of secondary breathing muscles) so

that there would be eventually a full exhale followed by a very short

natural pause, which would then be followed by the natural reflex to

inhale....with no pause between the inhale and the exhale portion.

Like you, he studied newborns to observe natural breathing. He also

used some physical touching to assist with the natural breathing

mechanics. My thought is that the pursed lips breathing that many of

us use with HRV biofeedback, or with you Sherpa breathing, may serve

the same function as voice resistance for exercising the diaphragm. I

would love to hear any comments you might have about all of this.

Take care..........

>

> Fred

> Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

>

>

> As a person following this group and others as a way of

> deciding on equipment to buy and what othere approaches to

pursue

> for myself, I hope you will continue the discussions on

> equipment, HRV, and so forth. Fred Bramble mentioned

> that maybe the breathing-HRV discussion had gone too

> far for this list. Well that's up to the other list

> members I guess; but for me it's been the best discussion

> of this area that I've seen and I'd love to keep hearing

> about it. It certainly confuses the what equipment to

> buy issue as you just can't get everything in one device

> (or you have to pay quite a bit more).

>

> One thing that is not so clear to me from all the

> breathing - HRV discussions I've seen here and elsewhere

> is just what kind of problems/symptoms are being solved

> or resolved with this. And what is the experience like?

> Is there some sense of relaxation, or balance, or clarity,

> or what that goes with that work?

> Thanks

> Phil Levy

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What is NLP?

> >I think the HRV is the most important issue here and it translates

into

> >all areas of life. The NLP people have said for years that those

> >individuals with the most requisite variety or flexibility in

their life

> >are the most successful. Interestingly, what the Heart Math

individuals

> >have found and contributed to this and the medical field is the

completely

> >opposite information that Heart Rate Variability is a predictor

and

> >indicator of good health.

[Guest guest]

Neuro Linguistic Programming

Google brought up these links on the top of its list when I used that as a

search argument:

http://www.nlpinfo.com/

http://www.anlp.org/

http://www.nlp.com/nlp/

HTH,

Bob Roos

At 01:34 PM 11/6/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>What is NLP?

[Guest guest]

NLP is Neurolinguistic Programming, It is a wonderful program that came out in

the 70's to study successful people. Many psychologists, therapist, even school

children have been trained in how to " read " people and establish rapport based

on the teachings of NLP. Rosemary

Re: Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

What is NLP?

> >I think the HRV is the most important issue here and it translates

into

> >all areas of life. The NLP people have said for years that those

> >individuals with the most requisite variety or flexibility in

their life

> >are the most successful. Interestingly, what the Heart Math

individuals

> >have found and contributed to this and the medical field is the

completely

> >opposite information that Heart Rate Variability is a predictor

and

> >indicator of good health.

[Guest guest]

Fred,

In summary and succinctness, I suspect you are asking if my breathing will get

to HRV better than training on a machine? I think both work and each has it's

merits.

When I get a busy client in and I want them to do progressive relaxation and

they don't have time, I tell them to do it in their car while driving or in the

living room in the middle of the three toddlers making noise. Going off to a

quiet space is sometimes unreal. It is necessary to incorporate HRV or my

breathing training into our lives all the time, not just on a machine several

times a week.

For the most part our baroreflexes manage our O2/CO2 levels as they should. I am

only saying don't get locked into the thiniking that that is fixed. You can

override the baroreflex.

And yes, Heart Math, HRV, CO2monitoring and awareness, breathing training...all

roads leading us back to sinus arrythmia.

At altitude, as a group we never had any episodes of cheynes-stokes breathing (

the irregular breathing I believe you are referring to), we had a few headaches

at night, but could breathe them away with the assistance of the feedback from a

oximeter, and we had few altitude symptoms. I remember one fellow at 14,000

feet who woke up with a swollen face, and headache. His dream was to get to base

camp and he was so afraid he would be sent out. I gave him the oximeter and sent

him off to breathe. He returned in one half hour. Swelling and headache

completely gone. He made it all the way and didn't miss a breath from that point

on. We kept a symptoms checklist, left checklists at the Sagarmatha State park

for other climbers in the region at the same time to pick up and fill out.

These were our controls. We were able to compare our symptoms to theirs. By

comparison we had very few. Of course in every group there are individual

differences and so there are always some who do better and some who do worse.

Think you make a good point about the anxiety person. A fellow at Stanford has

done quiet a bit of nice research on this. It was presented at the AAPB

respiratory group. (you should join)

You talk of renal compensation. Remember this is only about 15% compensated for

so it is not all that compensatory. More like an opportunity to get it right.

First response is the respiratory alkalosis producing metabolic acidosis, then

the 15% renal compensation. It goes down hill from there unless reversed.

Interesting how Stough comes up with voice resistence. Same thing goes with a

good singer or speaker. We do the resistence at the vocal cord level. The

greater your control there the more you can say in one breath (given that you

have taken one in the first place). My pursed lip breathing is a practice

technique to increase awareness and get the person to consciously control the

exhalation...just with breathing. Dr. Tiep in Calif has written a couple

of good articles on emphasyma and the back pressure from pursed lip breathing

driving in more O2. The second stage I teach is proper breathing with talking.

This then gets at the vocal cord issue and what Stough is talking about.

Hope this helps.

Rosemary

Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

As a person following this group and others as a way of

deciding on equipment to buy and what othere approaches to pursue

for myself, I hope you will continue the discussions on

equipment, HRV, and so forth. Fred Bramble mentioned

that maybe the breathing-HRV discussion had gone too

far for this list. Well that's up to the other list

members I guess; but for me it's been the best discussion

of this area that I've seen and I'd love to keep hearing

about it. It certainly confuses the what equipment to

buy issue as you just can't get everything in one device

(or you have to pay quite a bit more).

One thing that is not so clear to me from all the

breathing - HRV discussions I've seen here and elsewhere

is just what kind of problems/symptoms are being solved

or resolved with this. And what is the experience like?

Is there some sense of relaxation, or balance, or clarity,

or what that goes with that work?

Thanks

Phil Levy

[Guest guest]

A great book on using the 2 to 1 breathing ratio and transferring it to

different activities (running specifically) is, " Running and Breathing " by

O'Brien, PhD - you can find it on Amazon.com. Dr. O'Brien is a direct

student of the late Swami Rama (the Yogi Elmer & Alyce Green and Dale

Walters studied during the voluntary controls project at Menninger's). I

went and studied with Rama 15 years ago and later Dr. O'Brien and still use

all the methods they taught.

When you talk about this type of breathing over-riding the baro responses,

I'm assuming you are talking about your method of " sherpa " breathing, which

if I'm understanding you correctly is puting a lot of emphasis on

maintaining CO2 levels by emphasizing slow diaphragmatic breathing with a

particular emphasis on the exhale. I would sure like to learn more in detail

about how you go about this. The examples you gave about the Harborview

experiments are quite impressive. You've also indicated that one can be

taught to breath at a much slower rate naturally than the typical 11- 15

bpm, and I'm assuming this is done by the frequent hourly reminders you

mentioned. About how long does it generally take to achieve a natural slower

breathing rate with this method? Indeed, this would produce a profound

increase in everyday HRV.

Fred

[Guest guest]

Phil,

These are the downsides of the WaveRider from my point of view:

1. It has little or no visual feedback option. It you use the basic WaveWare

software, you have a line on a graph, a power spectrum or a time-based

spectrogram to look at. Of course, if you are doing alpha training or

alpha/theta or, in many cases, Tone training, where sound is the critical

feedback, this is no limitation. If you are working a lot with kids, who are

more visually oriented, it can be--at least in many trainers' minds.

2. Data output is not very developed. If using the WaveWare software, while

there is a marvelous recording option I use with remote clients, simple and

elegant, the ability to output a nice numeric report on the session is missing.

With the add-on CEO software, which allows you to create thermometer/bar graph

visuals, there is additional data output. However even this is far from easy

compared, say, with the BrainMaster's or A620's neat minute-by-minute graphs for

all measures which can also be dumped into txt or excel files. This, by the

way, would also be a limitation in my mind for the ProComp with Biograph. And

lots of trainers, as they become more experienced, are less interested in this

information except in assessments.

3. Discrete feedback is difficult. There are feedback options that allow you

to set a reward/inhibit (and I believe, without looking, a reward/two inhibit)

option which requires all conditions to be met for feedback, but the feedback

philosophy is based not on the beep-beep video game concept comfortable to many

trainers and clients. Instead it is based on sound that gives information about

levels: pitch and/or volume changes as a training band goes further above or

below threshold, chords fill in additional tones, etc. Many feel that this is a

better kind of feedback, but the difficulty of generating the " beep/point "

option on the WaveRider may be an issue for some.

3. Learning curve can be steep. This is the biggest from my point of view.

While, once you understand what you are doing, it is quite intuitive and

powerful to use WaveWare (not so much so with CEO), getting to that point can

take some time. This can be true of other platforms as well, but WaveWare

doesn't really have an " idiot mode " where you can plug and play. You can buy

preset protocols from (and there are a number which come with the

software), but to get really good at using its powerful options (the sound

feedback, percent training, ratio training and others only available on much

more expensive machines) takes some commitment or some training or both. I've

rarely found anyone who couldn't " get " the setup in a day of training if they

had the basics of NF when we started. The manual is good, but there are lots of

options and nuances it doesn't deal with.

4. Support is sometimes spotty. This is also true (at least has been in my

experience) with ProComp. Some other platforms, including BrainMaster, are many

steps ahead in terms of what the manufacturer provides on a consistent basis.

5. Presentation re: clinicians. Because WaveRider is the last of the really

powerful machines not to require a " gatekeeper " to buy it--it is sold as a

musical instrument you play with your brain--some clinicians steer away from it.

That's one reason I steer toward it. Anyone can buy one without a note from

their doctor.

I sell the machine and use it and have a number of clients who prefer it to the

alternatives, but if issues 1-4 could be fixed, I believe the platform would

take off even further.

Pete

Re: Equipment, HRV, Breathing, Metronome

On the surface the WaveRider models both Junior and the 5 channel

Pro seem like the best low cost eeg deals. Why don't I see

anything on the internet indicating more people using them?

Is there a problem with the hardware, or is the software lacking

or perhaps technical support? What gives?

So can someone lay out the pros and cons of these 2 units

[Guest guest]

Rosemary,

I think your careless remarks about Nurses being " lazy " , especially in

today's hospital setting is inaccurate, insulting, and highly

unprofessional! It is hospital administration that dictates rules and

regulations!

As for your comment that there is probably not a Nurse who has ever

trained in this -have you done your own personal survey?

Where are you getting your information from? I think to generalize about

a entire profession of people is both narrow minded and dangerous.

There are lots of people on a hospital floor that make up the plan of

care that a patient receives. If you see a person in a uniform , it

doesn't always mean it's a nurse.

A nurse looks at the entire patient when evaluating their health

status-not just the numbers showing on a screen!

Marsha Hildebrand RN

________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Rosemary:

You wrote:

" Fred,

In summary and succinctness, I suspect you are asking if my breathing will get

to HRV better than training on a machine? I think both work and each has it's

merits. "

Actually, I agree with you. What I'm still trying to do is learn how to

integrate the blood chemistry and HRV approaches. I've devised my own ways of

doing this, and some of your ideas are increasing my options. And, I'm eager to

learn more.

Your posts about Sherpa breathing has stimulated my interests in a pulse

oximeter, and I've found an interesting and relatively inexpensive one at:

http://www.bio-medical.com/oximeter.html .

I have several questions: First of all, is an oximeter really useful in an

outpatient clinical practice? If so, what are the practical applications? I

suspect it would be useful for atheletes who are trying to learn better ways of

breathing during exertion, but how would one integrate this in an office

setting, and are there other uses for it? Like, is it useful for cardiac

rehabilitation, or with asthma patients? Or, is the capnometer all one really

needs for most practical purposes? Finally, does the unit I mentioned above look

like it would be useful?

Thanks for any of your thoughts......

Fred